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On May 26 2012 08:34 Acid~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2012 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
We should kill Acid as well cause he kept trying to find any excuse possible to get away from the zealos lynch. Killing me for making a bad read will not help the town. Let's vig Katina and then we can lynch one of you or VE. I made my case on why at least one of you is scum, I'll dig it up and repost it in the morning if need be.
you can't just lynch one of us, you have to decide which one of us is scum if you actually believe that.
So which one is it?
Why can't we both be scum? Or town?
Since there should be four scum, you need a read from the rest of the player pool too, right? Who would that be?
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On May 26 2012 08:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like, you say that your question to Katina was part of your "tactics"...like, you had started to think NT was town at that point...but what about my tactics bugs? You were asking Katina for her read on him to further your read on her, but what about my question trying to further my read on you? It's the exact same thing, except that I was asking you in the spirit of cooperation so that we could try and figure shit out TOGETHER and your response was "I wanna kill VE"
Like....do you see where I'm going with this?
what are you talking about?
I called you scum because you said a couple of shady things. One about balance and another about conforming to your meta or something like that. I wanted to see your reaction.
Had I known you'd explode into a frenzy obviously I wouldn't have done it, but at that point there was nothing I could do to stop you from going into a rabid frenzy over me being scum and making the entire thread into me vs you.
I even straight up said I wasn't ignoring you but I had written down thoughts and forgotten to post them. You didn't accept that though, just like you didn't accept literally anything I said.
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yeah I brb respond to everything in like 45. dota.
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screw steam, load a game then someone d/cs, load another lol
I'm pretty sure the most likely players to be scum are those who are not involved in this conversation right now.
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Sorry guys, I intended on coming back earlier but things caught up with me.
If I'm not around longer then I should probably let you guys know certain things I've observed, so I'll put that up before deadline.
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So one thing btw that I wanted to point out immediately was that I didn't think scum would create a situation in which only scum were at risk of dying.
Going back and looking at the votes that sheds a lot of information.
Thinking from a scum perspective, you at least want the chance of a mislynch. So when we go back and reread we should look at who would've been good mislynch candidates.
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damn, I was going to wait till deadline but I'm not going to be around now because I was asked to go to a movie.
I'm also going to have to post everything relatively quickly since I need to leave at like...5:20 EDT. lol. (4:50 now)
Firstly my reasons for suspecting Acid:
When I first started prodding Acid his responses were relatively weak to me.
On May 24 2012 09:40 Acid~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 07:19 wherebugsgo wrote:
You bore me.
Acid who would you kill today? Zelblade. He's posted nothing of value and his vote on Jeb was just a follower vote. He also promised us content but has failed to deliver. Katina lurks too much. And finally, I think there's at least one scum between you and VE. Haven't made up my mind which one yet.
Both of his targets were lurkers, and it's fairly easy to make a case on a lurker. Just say you'll kill them, since they're not doing anything.
It's much harder to talk about more active players (such as zealos, VE, or me). Acid does a fairly scummy thing here in that he says he's convinced one of me and VE is scum but not which one. This forces the issue of VE vs WBG but doesn't actually give us any insight into what he thinks. There's also no justification for it and every time he's been asked for justification there's almost none provided.
Think back on Zealos; this is exactly what he did with his scumreads. When asked for scumreads the closest he got was tunneling hiro based on non-issues, after the lynch and after he was under some more serious pressure.
Likewise, Acid didn't really do anything until put under some pressure by ET (and later me). Even so, his actions haven't really lined up with the interest of finding scum but rather have lined up with saving his own ass. He seems to do just enough to continue living rather than actually help town; this is apparent in how he acts on the zelblade vs zealos issue later.
On May 24 2012 18:48 Acid~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 17:44 wherebugsgo wrote:Is he gone? <peeks around a corner> Anyway if Acid never responds, we kill him. To make that threat more real, let's turn up the heat. ##vote Acid~Nova, do you support a lynch of any of Acid, zealos, or Tunkeg? Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him.
The tone of response here makes it apparent that it was his intention to continue ignoring me.
Why? I had a perfectly valid reason for ignoring VE on that same subject: I had already been asking Acid that question and it made little sense to reveal my own opinions on a question I wanted a scummy target to answer. It makes very little sense, though, for Acid to ignore that same question. There is no justification provided either.
Again, we see a barebones answer. Zealos "might" happen if I could make a real case against him. The double standard is apparent here; Acid is completely fine with lynching zelblade, a player for whom no real case existed at that point. Yet, in order for his vote to go to Zealos, there would need to be a "real" case on Zealos pushed by me specifically (and marvellosity comes in and points out that there already exists a substantial case on zealos)
So Acid spends 20ish minutes reading marvellosity's case on zealos and comes back with this:
On May 24 2012 19:17 Acid~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 18:51 marvellosity wrote:On May 24 2012 18:48 Acid~ wrote:On May 24 2012 17:44 wherebugsgo wrote:Is he gone? <peeks around a corner> Anyway if Acid never responds, we kill him. To make that threat more real, let's turn up the heat. ##vote Acid~Nova, do you support a lynch of any of Acid, zealos, or Tunkeg? Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him. As opposed to my fake case you mean? After reading both your case and Zealos's filter, I wouldn't say your case is fake, but it's a little on the weak side. I would much rather get rid of either Zelblade or Katina. Of the two, I think Zelblade is more dangerous. He hasn't posted a single analysis or scumread and was content with bandwagoning Mouldy Jeb. ##vote zelblade
Note there is NO specific response to the case.
The case was pretty substantial and had at least 5-6 points in favor of zealos being scum. Among them were zealos not scumhunting, choosing to tunnel hiro after the lynch, contradicting himself, etc. etc. None of these were addressed or refuted in this post. Again, a very barebones response and very unsatisfactory.
What Acid did here is undermine marvellosity's case. Undermining is quite easy to do as scum; you just dismiss the case and then push an alternative lynch of someone who you think is more likely to get bandwagoned. Zelblade was that choice.
Recall that this is what Acid said when zelblade was afk
On May 25 2012 03:46 Acid~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 03:28 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 25 2012 03:13 Acid~ wrote:On May 25 2012 02:03 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 25 2012 01:58 Acid~ wrote:On May 25 2012 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
Marvellosity you just have to read my posts. I'm not giving you nothing and you know that. I'm trying to lynch Zealos just as much as you are, but as long as other players are defending him indirectly by voting other players, but not calling him town, we can't get him killed.
Think about it, everyone calls him suspicious but their votes end up elsewhere.
VE at this point is just being annoying and confrontational. I don't particularly care right now why he keeps calling me scum, since he's obviously wrong, but if today's lynch does not fall on scum then I'll take the responsibility for the lynch.
You can lynch me after and town can lose. I said I'd be OK for a Zealos lynch. I'm willing to change my vote from zelblade to Zealos if you can tell me why you think zelblade isn't scum. Whether or not Zealos is scum at this point has absolutely nothing to do with zelblade's alignment and therefore I'm obligated to do anything for you in terms of showing you that zelblade is town or whatever. Either you think Zealos is scum or not. Right now I don't feel like sparing very much effort since there's no point when more than half of you don't read to begin with. And I'm not obligated to follow your directions. Who made you king of the fucking hill? My strongest scumread is Zelblade right now and I intend to push for his death unless someone either 1. makes a case for zelblade's innocence (good luck) 2. makes a stronger case for another lynch As I said, the case against Zealos is not inexistant, but it's not strong either. You realize that in order to kill someone in this game, you have to convince them of your correctness? In other words if you want us to kill zelblade over zealos then you should convince us to kill him instead of telling us to convince you to not kill zelblade. It's called burden of proof; the burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion. If you make the assertion that zelblade is scum, then YOU should be the one to explain it. No one is obligated to show you why zelblade is innocent or whatever. As town I don't even know if zelblade is innocent. Anyway, the case on Zealos has already been put forth; read Marvellosity's filter. If you don't want to do that then I don't see how you expect to win, as reading is mandatory to do almost anything else in a game of mafia. You call the zealos case not strong. What parts of it are weak? I have made my case against zelblade. It's pretty fucking straightforward and I made it in direct reply to a question you asked me, so I would assume you've read it. Practice what you preach. Zelblade lurked for most of the game, never tried to scumhunt, never shared reads or offered anything of value to the town in any way whatsoever. His sole contribution to the thread so far has been to vote for Jeb. Did you read his case for Jeb? Here it is, in all its glory : Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:00 zelblade wrote:
I still think nova is scummy. But mouldy more so. Agree with marv's case generally.
Now, this a call to ALL TOWNIES : read zelblade's filter. ALL OF IT. It won't take long, there's barely a page and that alone tells you more than you need to know.
When zelblade came back, did this change at all? Not really, but Acid changed votes to stay with the town sentiment.
When Zealos claimed, Acid immediately voted for Hiro without actually thinking about the claim. He talked very little about it. Contrast this with the towniest responses I saw to the claim and IMO the most town looking players all discussed the claim at least in two or three posts before coming to a conclusion.
Since then I've become less sure of Acid being scum, particularly as he pointed out a few things I don't think a scum would point out. However I may just be second guessing myself, or perhaps I'm just giving acid too much credit to begin with and he's just a townie who doesn't feel like playing the analysis game.
At any rate tomorrow I expect Acid to step it up and provide a proper case on who he thinks is scum (assuming he survives the night). If I die I expect you all to hold him to that. If I don't die I'll do it myself.
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If we have a medic:
You're dumb. Like seriously, learn to read. Marvellosity was the obvious night kill. No excuses for him to die except us having no medic.
We do have a vigi apparently, and I was wrong about Acid. Oh well. We kill Katina.
##vote Katina
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Also unless froggy is going to get CCed he's confirmed town.
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I didn't bus VE in AC. What the penis?
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Oh you claimed doctor?
What the fuck? Why would you claim doctor in a situation in which you're not about to die?
???????????
What townie doctor does that?
##unvote
##vote VisceraEyes
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Who did you protect n1 and n2 VE?
You clearly didn't protect marvellosity, so who could you possibly have a better town read on than him? Can't be me for equally obvious reasons
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Wtf is going on, we have a DT claim too?
What is wrong with you people?
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I just got back from a movie and I was reading into the thread from what I missed.
From what I saw I saw Nova say he considered claiming vet. Wtf is that supposed to mean?
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his claim doesn't look serious so I'm going to assume he's not a DT anyway.
Your claim looks serious and will continue to perplex me until you die. Heck, probably even after you die. Regardless of what you flip, really.
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This is ridiculous, the claim can't be real.
A player like VE is not going to try to protect a blue because townies aren't often in the position to predict hits like that. The tried and true notion is to protect whoever looks town or is confirmed. Tonight there's only one choice and it's FROGGY, not NT. Why? Because the only thing about NT we know for sure is that he spams. Otherwise we know next to nothing.
It's not like these hits were particularly hard to predict. N1 there were like 3 choices, it was between me/VE/ET. I predicted the ET hit myself because I assumed the way VE was attacking me, even if we were both town neither of us would die.
N2 was so obvious I even said it aloud for the entire thread to hear. If the town medic wasn't on marvellosity last night he was high or brainless.
VE claiming doctor makes 0 sense as town. As town the next night you're either going to be lit up or you're going to be roleblocked. In fact if I were scum I'd roleblock the doctor claim and then shoot the town like froggy or whoever and make a mislynch out of VE. VE by no means is stupid. He would have thought about these concerns before claiming. He knows doctors don't claim ever unless they're going to get lynched. He knows mafia will always try to kill the most sensible townies first: rarely is it that they forego that in favor of dropping everything to hunt for blues. In light of this his claimed protects are moronic and it's no way that they are real, and his claim is equally perplexing because for a townie it's just negative EV the entire way.
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There is actually a scum motivation that I can think of. It's super weird, but:
Pretend they aren't killing me because they fear there's a medic on me. So, they need to identify the medic and kill him. They use the RB to block who they think is blue (if they have one) but that might not be good enough. They wouldn't do this if they had a rolecop, I don't think.
Scum claiming medic puts town in a weird spot. A real medic will counterclaim VE, and then it becomes about who is most believable. If no one counterclaims then the scum can try to keep himself alive or force the lynch on someone else. This is great for VE since he has apparently thought he could get me lynched all game.
The other prerequisite for this is having at least one scum in a safeish position. Obviously as Acid flipped town we have to reevaluate and consider who that might be. It could be NT. It could be both NT and Katina because they're all distancing each other but there is no serious push between them. It could be Navillus. At this point, I don't know.
Now imagine the real medic CCs VE. They roleblock him, shoot me, or the other way around, etc etc. It doesn't really matter what they do at that point.
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The other thing is that the marvellosity shot tells them I can't possibly be medic. If I were, I would have protected him.
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No, I don't think it's serious.
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Hahahah note how VE said "if I flip town" and not "when I flip town"
I found that bit funny
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EPT
