EPTPick Your Power: Redux - Page 2
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Boooored. I want this to start NAO  | ||
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Toadesstern
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Reasoning: Mafia can talk about this in privacy and figure out what's the best course of action, town can not. I don't need to tell mafia what I picked making it easier (imo) to get a higher draft. That being said I already send in my numbers and I won't tell people for now :p I still think #1 and #2 draft both HAVE TO pick CPR. It's the by far strongest role around and we can not let mafia have that role. #2 picks CPR as well to get some fool-safety. That way we probably will end up loosing a CPR night 1 or mafia shoots into a hider / vet if the #1 guy chose to take the rnd-chance that #2 is town as well (yeah I am assuming that #1 is town for the sake of discussion, if #1 ends up being mafia we don't even need this discussion, that's why). But I am frankly perfectly fine with that. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:39 sandroba wrote: I've thought about assigning cpr too, but I'm not sure it's good since target for mafia to hit if the guy in the pos is town. So I think it's best for it to remain open. ok but you do agree that the CPR is the by far strongest power for mafia right? I agree that it's not the strongest role for Town at all. You might pull a Toad on everyone and end up shooting 3 townies but we can not let mafia have CPR. That being said I don't even care if a townie CPR dies to mafia. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:46 sandroba wrote: I do. Mafia is not likely to get shot, so town cpr is very good (infinite vigi). It's very strong for both teams. Do you agree with my denial plan? I need everyone that sees a problem with it to step up and say it. I totally agree with it for the most part and like I already said pregame (I was allowed to talk about roles as long as I don't do plans :p) the roles that you listed are very powerful for mafia. I don't actually think the GF part of the GF isn't that strong for mafia in this set-up imo because frankly a tracker or bullet-bob seems much more powerful than any kind of cop in this set-up but the vengeful part of this role adds up. The janitor is just really screwing with town and the RB is really hard for town to use (if at all) but still very nice for mafia to kill people or RB them. The only thing I disagree about is that the CPR is not there. +1 kill every night can lose us the game at before d3 has started as pointed out by me, although the example I did was tailored for a 15 player game. Therefore I will not agree to any plan that hasn't a CPR as #1 denial in it. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:58 sandroba wrote: @decon I asked this already and they are informed. I fail to see how dropping godfather is good. Means that if gf is ever killed we get a bonus mafia for free. @toad tell me how assigning cpr will help to keep it off mafia hands. GF is strong because it's imunity to checks + 1 free kill. But it's way stronger as mafia so that's why it's in the denial plan. Unlike cpr which is strong as both alignments. It's not, but it's at least giving us a change that a townie ends up with it instead of a mafia. Do you really think someone who's not called Sandroba, deconduo or Qatol would end up picking CPR as town themselves unless told so? I think everyone but those 3 might end up thinking something like "well I'm not that good, better leave it to someone who's really good" which will almost certainly give the role to mafia. Yes it is possible that the #1 draft is mafia but I am fairly certain that mafia will send the guy who has the highest seed to pick CPR no matter of who the guy is, just to grab that role because if they manage to get that role it's going to get ugly. Therefore I think we have to deny that role and hope the #1 draft is a townie. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:08 sandroba wrote: I would totally pick cpr. Give me kp and I'll give you dead scum. Trust me it's more effective to leave it up for grabs. Mafia can't pick it safely, they might end up vanilla. Yes I know you would. But if you are something like the #7 seed or even less mafia is going to have it. I doubt they are going to care about one goon. The CPR is like you said high risk but the advantages are even higher. +1 Kill in a mini is just ugly. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:19 sandroba wrote: @toad sorry i misread your post. You think mafia is more likely to get it if we don't assign it. Maybe you are right. But they also have to risk becoming vanilla unless they get number 5 spot. Number 5 can always pick cpr anyway if he is town. So it's really comes down to probability of mafia getting an specific spot, which is always the same. I think the CPR is way more dangerous than the GF. Yes I agree the GF is strong but it's nowhere near as strong as a CPR in the hands of a SK or mafia. If we tell people that #1 picks CPR that's 15/20 (75%) chance that it's going to be a townie. If we tell people that #5 picks CPR that's a 19,36 % Chance that a townie ends up with the CPR role if my windows-calculator is correct (15/20 * 14/19 * 13/18 * 12/17 * 11/16) which means we're screwed. In short do no like The reason I do not like it is because of what I posted pregame: + Show Spoiler [click me!] + On May 09 2012 05:31 Toadesstern wrote: Just a little example for your: Mafia team: 3 (CPR + vig + RB/framer/GF/janitor) + 1 traitor = 4 => Town team = 11 people. So it's 11 vs 4 let's say town mislynches d1, which is not unlikely at all => 10vs 4 => nightphase with 3 KP => 7vs 4 and it's lylo after a single cycle. Who cares about what happens 3 cycles after the game started when you win in 2 cycles if you manage to not shoot into protection / vets / hider. Edit: And I'm not saying that because I think it's imba, it's more about that people should think about the set-up because mafia will most likely have an awesome plan if they're in irc or in a Mafia QT argueing about what's the best thing to do given the drafts. Mafia is probably not going to srew up the picks imo, but I could see townies screwing up the picks. That's why I am talking about those things because I think we need to be on an equal stage to start the game or it's instant gg :p There's some roles that are really nasty for both town and mafia and I think CPR is something mafia should never lay there hands on if town wants a chance. GF is pretty awesome as well given the changes and so is a pardoner if you use it the right way. Edit2: Oh and that's talking about a 3 vs 12 set-up. I don't actually know if it's going to be something like that. Usually a mini is 12 players and 3v9 or something like that, so maybe it's even a 4v11 setup, who knows :p Yes it gets a little better because the game got a little big better, so mafia KP was kind of nerfed because it did not increase while the townie number did. However we now got a SK with one KP as well. Yeah that guy might end up hitting mafia as well but I'd rather not count on that to be true and win myself. So in short: I don't think the situation got better and it's still as dangerous as it was pregame. I'd like to make it either: #1 Pick CPR #2 Pick CPR or #1 Pick CPR #2 Pick RB and let him RB the CPR. Personally I agree that the GF is a lot stronger than the usual GF but I don't think it could end up gamebreaking like the CPR will if it gets into SK / mafia hands. Same about janitor / RB / framer) so I do not think we need to deny those. If someone is not sure what to pick, go ahead and pick one of those. A one-time vengeful GF is not going to hurt town THAT much even if noone denies it that we need it gone no matter what. I think a nice townie blue role is about as good as someone picking GF / Janitor to deny mafia taht role because those are 1 hit only and RB / Framer are still really good for mafia but nothing like the other roles that were mentioned. So if someone is not sure if he really should pick a strong blue role pick one of those. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:48 Barundar wrote: Denying roles worked best in the last game I played, PYP:Interesting I think it was. I picked a recruiter GF at the number 3 pick spot in that game, but looking back I should have picked a CPR doc since it went to a mafia low down in the picking instead. That said I'm completely behind Sandrobas list. While on denying roles, copy cat is a very powerful mafia role, and it's not boring town role, so definitely consider it if you end up in the just below top range. (for those unsure why it's a good mafia role, town tends to spill what roles they have early, they can then snipe the roles they need and pick it up.) And I'm already fairly certain we have a town sandro this game based on his offensive planning and intensive questioning. While it's not something we have to decide yet, I would totally get behind a CPR on sandro, mass medic backup snipe game. While I agree we need to randomize our powerroles, PYP:I was also super easy because we maxed out blue roles. Without being too specific to avoid snipes, if you end up lowish in the list please pickup heroes like medics and be a hero, even if it's not a superman you can still win the game for us. Don't be afraid to pick up stuff like role cop either, you can tell a lot from peoples alignment through their roles, in the PYP's I have played mafia has never been afraid to pick mafia power roles. And lastly, regarding the traitor. I know some people got dissapointed when they didn't get a mafia role. Let me just say in all the PYP's so far, someone else has picked traitor as well, and when they didnt get it claimed in thread. Very easy to hunt down the guilty person from a short list then. Why do you think Sandro is town? There's multiple ways to pick for mafia and yeah I agree with the roles he pointed out (hell I pointed the same roles out pregame...) but mafia could pick other stuff as in I don't think the roles he picked are gamebreaking imba and we could win a game vs a time like that. Something like a mafia Mason/Pardoner would be equally strong as the things he pointed out. We however can not win a game vs a 3KP setup or even a 4KP setup if the SK shoots into town with 20 people in this game. That's a straight up lose for us. Not to mention that as I already said the roles he pointed out are strong but not gamebreaking strong. Yeah having town pick them sounds good and it's definitively a nice option for uncertain townies (at least) but a strong blue might be a little better or worse depending on who ends up picking the power and what it is. Frankly if I could get a hold onto that dayvig power I'd shoot Sandro in the face d1. That's what I think about your townread on Sandro right now and about his "yeah CPR is really strong in townhands as well" when there are only 3 people in this game that really are considered to be that awesome as town, IF they are town (read: it's Sandro, Qatol, deconduo) while there are 5 other people out there who desperatly want that role. So yeah we probably should leave it to those 3 and hope than NOT A SINGLE ONE out of those 5 (that's mafia + SK) gets a better draf than one of those 3 while hoping that alle 3 want that role, while hoping that all 3 of them are town because if one of those things we have to hope on is wrong we're screwed, but that's apparently fine with Sandroba. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I don't actually think the GF screws up that much. A Role cop would be nice for mafia and it might be somewhat nice for town but I really don't see it as a strong town role. Parrity Cop gets strong later in the game, as in it's weaker than a usual DT (without paranoid and shit of course). So I don't think the town DT roles are that strong. I'd rather have a townie pick tracker (!!!) or bullet-bob because those 2 are WAY stronger in town hands than the other 2 DT roles I mentioned above and the GF ability doesn't work against those 2. So I don't really see the GF being that annoying other than the vengeful part which is strong, but it's not messing with town at all. So again. Yeah the roles on sandros list are strong but they are not that strong that I'd consider them gamebreaking. A mafia or SK who can lay a hand on a CPR is gamebreaking and it's a straight up lose for town. What's the point of making a denial list at all if it's not roles that seem to be to powerful for mafia to have them we're discussing. It seems like Sandro and everyone agrees that a mafia CPR or a SK CPR is way more nasty than anything he listed, yet he tells us we shouldn't deny it because it could be a huge asset to town as well because mafia won't care about wether a nooby or a vet gets a hold on the CPR, they can just tell them what to shoot. I think it's something like that: It's INCREDIBLE HIGH RISK and somewhat high reward if we go for sandros plan and just hope that one of the vets ends up being drafted before every other mafia and SK and on top of that picks CPR instead of hider or vet. It's pretty much no risk at all for mafia and incredible high reward for mafia if they can lay a hand on that CPR thing. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Give me some time to think about it | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I still think Sandros plan is much nicer from a mafia point of view than a town point of view so I'm still disagreeing with that and would rather make everyone choose themselves than following that plan. So if someone can come up with a nice idea that would be great. I'm taking a break and maybe I'll have a genius idea while doing that break :p Or explain to me why a GF is so incredible powerful that it is more important to deny that role to Mafia than to have a strong blue role like a tracker / vet or hider in spot #1 would be. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:40 hiro protagonist wrote: nvm, the other hole is that if the person who is suposed to pick CPR is mafia, he can pick something else, and let his buddy grab it -___- nono, that's actually a good point. If we make it the way I said (make #1 and #2 pick CPR and force the RB to RB #1 on top of that?) that's np, because mafia can't pick something else and let his buddy grab it because #2 will grab it as well. Unless of course people do whatever they want to do (if that's the case making a plan is useless anyways so I'm assuming that's not the case) or if both #1 and #2 end up being mafia, but come on, how likely is that ^^ So what you said is true. The copy cat will get the power of whoever gets lynched d1. That way we need to make sure someone gets lynched d1 and it's np at all. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
then we have a dead mafia. CPR shoots RB. If RB is town he better rb's the CPR or he is toast. If he is mafia he better rb's the CPR or he is toast. That way we deny both CPR and RB with one pick! Unless of course CPR ends up being mafia. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:47 hiro protagonist wrote: If mafia get RB and town get CPR: Townie does not shoot anyways. if mafia does not RB him, next morning CPR goes "hey! i wasent RBed last night!" = dead scum. If mafia get CPR and town gets RB, then mafias best power is constatly roleblocked = good for us. the issue is if mafia is suposed to pick CPR, but then grabs something else, and lets his buddy down the line grab it... that's why I assigned #1 AND #2 to pick CPR as a fool safety and we don't have that problem. The CPR shoots the RB (at least) the first night and if we force the RB to make what we want to to do, not by teling him what to do but by forcing him to do it or he's toast. That sounds awesome to me. Only way this could go wrong is a no-lynch or a mafia ending up with #1 draft in which case any plan to deny mafia the strongest role would fail, because they can simply pick it. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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Oh and he's going to claim day-vig d1 (which will be a lie) forcing some guy to post his spreadsheet or he'll dayvig him. Luckily Palmar always finds a way to target the REAL dayvig d1 so he'll get shot instead and we won't have to deal with his new "style". | ||
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