|
it seems genuine from a frustrated townies perspective
|
quite possibly because i know the feel
|
I AM THE QUEEN BITCH AND WE ARE VOTING LAYABOUT TODAY :D   :D!
##vote: layabout
|
On May 10 2012 05:54 Nova_Terra wrote:[spoiler] Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:44 papapanda wrote:On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Just got back from yet another apple store, looks like im gonna have to take an hour train ride to get to a place where teh iphone can be repaired for around 150$
isnt it wonderful
So anyway, as I promised i will be making an effort to do some analysis, i decided to do a bit of filter analysis on papapanda
Please read his filter along with this case
papapandas filter is surprisingly short. I didnt realize this until i actually went through his filter. Less than 2 pages.
Papapanda starts off the game decently, actually. He seems to post some minor analysis on behavior at the beginning of the game in regards to blubb and grush. I made a neat compilation of all your post into a word document and counted your words to be 2653. I excluded all text in quotes. This data is up to this post. On May 10 2012 04:56 Nova_Terra wrote:On May 10 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:
froggynoddy you are now confirmed town
so my scumteam is in here:
grush57
l10f
Eiii
papapanda cant tell if forgotten or actually made it out of the scumreads I also made one for myself, ofcourse excluding all text in quotes, and the count is 2213(not including this post, which has 280 words). 4 pages? 4 pages of spam maybe. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:On May 03 2012 10:15 papapanda wrote:My guess is that grush is semi-lurker and just have been reading/agreeing/sheeping with what information that has/hasnot been posted by you. At first I would've have passed off the blue/green slip from blubbdavid as misreading because I can imagine myself accidentally misreading/mis-pronouncing blue/green. But from his defensive post i have to be a little suspicious. On May 03 2012 07:55 blubbdavid wrote:
One post on D1 doesn't make someone scum. Even if I probably deserve a warning for my stupidity.
Will defend myself tomorrow, it's late here. And if it is even worth it.
And when you vote, please use the proper thread. It is reasonable to vote for blubb if no one else comes out with major slip-ups, and the town has to lynch someone. Otherwise I would sit back and wait for N1 or D2 when more information might be available. Me is hardcore BLU! However, at the same time, i noticed a bit of noncommittal behavior on his thoughts on blubb. "i thought he probably misread, but im still somewhat suspicious" just say you have a neutral read if you're neutral on him. Then he kinda tries to make a very early bandwagon target. I dont like that. I was not neutral on Blubb at that stage of the game, your summary of my post is very underrepresentative. It should be"I thought he misread, but his defense made me suspicious." I didn't think that was enough evidence to lynch him ATM. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Then theres a bunch of 1 liners, with a question that makes it seem like he is contributing. he likes to continually state that he will lynch/unvote blubb, while at the same time saying nothing else about anyone. another thing to note is he puts a "placeholder vote" on blubb in case he cant make the deadline, effectively setting himself up to not be there and not post if he doesnt have to.
Then he jumps on the GRUSH BE HELPFUL NOT THIS SHIT "contribution" bandwagon. I would like to remind you that I did, in fact, post afterwards when I realize that I would not miss the deadline. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:Now here comes the parts that i think are pretty scummy. On May 05 2012 05:23 papapanda wrote:
Blazinghand:
I hate to be stepping into your line of fire, but I didn't find NT's post to be as bad as you make it sound like it is. Actually, I found that many of the points he made was very similar to the ones I tried to make.
I agree with you on "too dumb to be scum" is not an argument at all but I also do not believe grush to be scum, even though he isn't helping much (blubbdavid, I said this in my previous post but this is basically all my thought on grush as of now).
In fact, I share NT's suspicion of sinensis, and I assure you this is not just OMGUS. My original comment was just to get him to further explain his vote because he actually didn't say anything before his second response. I was shocked at what I believe to be an over-defensive reaction, one that might be coming from having something to hide, from sin. Given, he did provide sufficient evidence of reasoning, but he's accusation of me can hardly be called a read(from yourself, blazinghand).
I am still undecided on a vote. I have some gut feelings about a few persons but no evidence to base that off of. This post goes like this SOFT DEFENSE SOFT DEFENSE AGREEMENT AGREEMENT SOFT DEFENSE and fluff. then he says he is totally undecided. come on, really? you can make a post spamming agreement and soft defense, but you cant make a solid read? No, I couldn't make a solid read because I didn't have enough information. This is your read: On May 05 2012 06:00 Nova_Terra wrote:
In accordance with popular demand, i will share my top scumread which is currently Mementoss (not based on OMGUS)
mementoss starts off suggesting to policy lynch two people, etc. Makes a few totally unneccessary 1 liners, and then when he is called out on it he goes NO WAIT i has reason, then decided to teach us, which just came off freaking weird.
Then he goes aggressive on layabout, throwing suspicion while not doing much of anything, then joins the Grush did something scummy this looks really bad group. not original. then after blazing notes something on me he joins in that too, and makes remarks in an unsure way, seeming to want to be able to backtrack if necessary. then, when called out on it, he goes into defensive aggression mode and suddenly gains massive confidence which hadnt been in his play before.
Overall
1liners
Enlightens us on 1 liners
throws suspicion while not doing much at all
joins scummy bandwagon
seems unsure
agrees with an Oh i noticed the same thing!
makes arguments based on my meta, which is questionable entirely based on the fact that i never play this lurky, town or scum
randomly gets massively confident, as opposed to his earlier play, its as if someone told him to be more sure
and so ##Vote: Mementoss Seems to fit yourself better then mementoss. solid? No. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Next comes a puny case of marvellosity after saying a conspiracy theory about how BM's lynching was orchestrated by scum, which seems mighty convenient coming from someone who soft defended BM and didnt take part in his lynch
Then he reposts an idea from layabout and says its "interesting", then agrees again with someone else and sets up a cute little train "marv next after layabout" setting up for future lynch.
Goes on to criticize defense again and agains, and now he goes back to a neutral read on blubb. and says that the only reason to think blubb was scum was becuase of his slip day 1 (wait, didnt he say that he thought this wasnt scummy and he could have easily done the same thing?)
And some more 1 liners.
Later,
"i can see why you want to lynch N_T but like N_T said"
MORE AGREEMENT, MORE AGREEMENT, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
PUSH SOMETHING OTHER THEN LAYABOUT/MARV MOOOOOOORE
Then he seems like hes making a misunderstanding about mementoss on purpose
allaround,
Agrees a shitton, 1 liners a ton, and tunnels a good bit, soft defends so he can use it later
so right now i feel comfortable putting a vote on him
##Vote: papapanda Keyword is last section is "Agree". Yes, I will admit if I am seeing a player agreeing all the time, it raises some suspicion that he is trying to stay off the radar. However, this is how I talk/post; if you want I can try to change that but it might/not work. If you feel like this is enough to lynch me, I won't pressure you for more reason, but I want you to seriously reconsider. I think I have my two scums in layabout and marv. While I am definitely keeping my head up for other suspicious people, this is where my focus lies. If you want to find someone with little posts, look at sinensis. Hmm. I find it interesting that you seem to think that your reads were solid and mine werent. mine were "mem does X Y And Z scummy" and voted on it, yours were "i agree with X that Y is scummy but it goes along with Ys meta" etc. with no real pressure on it a all. Please change the agree thing. I will think over your posting more, but for now i leave my vote on you. i am interested as to what your two scumreads flip as, however.
What I said was it was too early for any case to be solid.
No worries, layabout:p
|
On May 10 2012 06:06 papapanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:54 Nova_Terra wrote:[spoiler] On May 10 2012 05:44 papapanda wrote:On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Just got back from yet another apple store, looks like im gonna have to take an hour train ride to get to a place where teh iphone can be repaired for around 150$
isnt it wonderful
So anyway, as I promised i will be making an effort to do some analysis, i decided to do a bit of filter analysis on papapanda
Please read his filter along with this case
papapandas filter is surprisingly short. I didnt realize this until i actually went through his filter. Less than 2 pages.
Papapanda starts off the game decently, actually. He seems to post some minor analysis on behavior at the beginning of the game in regards to blubb and grush. I made a neat compilation of all your post into a word document and counted your words to be 2653. I excluded all text in quotes. This data is up to this post. On May 10 2012 04:56 Nova_Terra wrote:On May 10 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:
froggynoddy you are now confirmed town
so my scumteam is in here:
grush57
l10f
Eiii
papapanda cant tell if forgotten or actually made it out of the scumreads I also made one for myself, ofcourse excluding all text in quotes, and the count is 2213(not including this post, which has 280 words). 4 pages? 4 pages of spam maybe. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:On May 03 2012 10:15 papapanda wrote:My guess is that grush is semi-lurker and just have been reading/agreeing/sheeping with what information that has/hasnot been posted by you. At first I would've have passed off the blue/green slip from blubbdavid as misreading because I can imagine myself accidentally misreading/mis-pronouncing blue/green. But from his defensive post i have to be a little suspicious. On May 03 2012 07:55 blubbdavid wrote:
One post on D1 doesn't make someone scum. Even if I probably deserve a warning for my stupidity.
Will defend myself tomorrow, it's late here. And if it is even worth it.
And when you vote, please use the proper thread. It is reasonable to vote for blubb if no one else comes out with major slip-ups, and the town has to lynch someone. Otherwise I would sit back and wait for N1 or D2 when more information might be available. Me is hardcore BLU! However, at the same time, i noticed a bit of noncommittal behavior on his thoughts on blubb. "i thought he probably misread, but im still somewhat suspicious" just say you have a neutral read if you're neutral on him. Then he kinda tries to make a very early bandwagon target. I dont like that. I was not neutral on Blubb at that stage of the game, your summary of my post is very underrepresentative. It should be"I thought he misread, but his defense made me suspicious." I didn't think that was enough evidence to lynch him ATM. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Then theres a bunch of 1 liners, with a question that makes it seem like he is contributing. he likes to continually state that he will lynch/unvote blubb, while at the same time saying nothing else about anyone. another thing to note is he puts a "placeholder vote" on blubb in case he cant make the deadline, effectively setting himself up to not be there and not post if he doesnt have to.
Then he jumps on the GRUSH BE HELPFUL NOT THIS SHIT "contribution" bandwagon. I would like to remind you that I did, in fact, post afterwards when I realize that I would not miss the deadline. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:Now here comes the parts that i think are pretty scummy. On May 05 2012 05:23 papapanda wrote:
Blazinghand:
I hate to be stepping into your line of fire, but I didn't find NT's post to be as bad as you make it sound like it is. Actually, I found that many of the points he made was very similar to the ones I tried to make.
I agree with you on "too dumb to be scum" is not an argument at all but I also do not believe grush to be scum, even though he isn't helping much (blubbdavid, I said this in my previous post but this is basically all my thought on grush as of now).
In fact, I share NT's suspicion of sinensis, and I assure you this is not just OMGUS. My original comment was just to get him to further explain his vote because he actually didn't say anything before his second response. I was shocked at what I believe to be an over-defensive reaction, one that might be coming from having something to hide, from sin. Given, he did provide sufficient evidence of reasoning, but he's accusation of me can hardly be called a read(from yourself, blazinghand).
I am still undecided on a vote. I have some gut feelings about a few persons but no evidence to base that off of. This post goes like this SOFT DEFENSE SOFT DEFENSE AGREEMENT AGREEMENT SOFT DEFENSE and fluff. then he says he is totally undecided. come on, really? you can make a post spamming agreement and soft defense, but you cant make a solid read? No, I couldn't make a solid read because I didn't have enough information. This is your read: On May 05 2012 06:00 Nova_Terra wrote:
In accordance with popular demand, i will share my top scumread which is currently Mementoss (not based on OMGUS)
mementoss starts off suggesting to policy lynch two people, etc. Makes a few totally unneccessary 1 liners, and then when he is called out on it he goes NO WAIT i has reason, then decided to teach us, which just came off freaking weird.
Then he goes aggressive on layabout, throwing suspicion while not doing much of anything, then joins the Grush did something scummy this looks really bad group. not original. then after blazing notes something on me he joins in that too, and makes remarks in an unsure way, seeming to want to be able to backtrack if necessary. then, when called out on it, he goes into defensive aggression mode and suddenly gains massive confidence which hadnt been in his play before.
Overall
1liners
Enlightens us on 1 liners
throws suspicion while not doing much at all
joins scummy bandwagon
seems unsure
agrees with an Oh i noticed the same thing!
makes arguments based on my meta, which is questionable entirely based on the fact that i never play this lurky, town or scum
randomly gets massively confident, as opposed to his earlier play, its as if someone told him to be more sure
and so ##Vote: Mementoss Seems to fit yourself better then mementoss. solid? No. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Next comes a puny case of marvellosity after saying a conspiracy theory about how BM's lynching was orchestrated by scum, which seems mighty convenient coming from someone who soft defended BM and didnt take part in his lynch
Then he reposts an idea from layabout and says its "interesting", then agrees again with someone else and sets up a cute little train "marv next after layabout" setting up for future lynch.
Goes on to criticize defense again and agains, and now he goes back to a neutral read on blubb. and says that the only reason to think blubb was scum was becuase of his slip day 1 (wait, didnt he say that he thought this wasnt scummy and he could have easily done the same thing?)
And some more 1 liners.
Later,
"i can see why you want to lynch N_T but like N_T said"
MORE AGREEMENT, MORE AGREEMENT, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
PUSH SOMETHING OTHER THEN LAYABOUT/MARV MOOOOOOORE
Then he seems like hes making a misunderstanding about mementoss on purpose
allaround,
Agrees a shitton, 1 liners a ton, and tunnels a good bit, soft defends so he can use it later
so right now i feel comfortable putting a vote on him
##Vote: papapanda Keyword is last section is "Agree". Yes, I will admit if I am seeing a player agreeing all the time, it raises some suspicion that he is trying to stay off the radar. However, this is how I talk/post; if you want I can try to change that but it might/not work. If you feel like this is enough to lynch me, I won't pressure you for more reason, but I want you to seriously reconsider. I think I have my two scums in layabout and marv. While I am definitely keeping my head up for other suspicious people, this is where my focus lies. If you want to find someone with little posts, look at sinensis. Hmm. I find it interesting that you seem to think that your reads were solid and mine werent. mine were "mem does X Y And Z scummy" and voted on it, yours were "i agree with X that Y is scummy but it goes along with Ys meta" etc. with no real pressure on it a all. Please change the agree thing. I will think over your posting more, but for now i leave my vote on you. i am interested as to what your two scumreads flip as, however. What I said was it was too early for any case to be solid. No worries, layabout:p
Then say that youre neutral leaning scum or something on him. dont say this "makes him normal but this is scummy" and do nothing with it
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
I come home from my (disastrous) chess match and lots of the lurkers have come out to play. Gonna have to re-read the past few pages a couple of times to work out what the deuce is going on.
|
laya you're completely avoiding my case against you.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2012 11:56 PaqMan wrote:layabout, and why he's getting my Finger of Suspicion. #1I'll begin with a link to his case against blubby: hereIn that post, layabout makes no mention whatsoever of DYH's case against blubb. Not even a little comment, even though he made it 4 hours after DYH. I think that it's pretty obvious DYH's case on blubb influenced layabout to make his own. So I looked into it more. What struck me as really odd, was the fact that he had no FoS, no read, nothing at all on blubb prior to DYH's case. In fact, layabout's only mention of blubb is when SA asks him what he thinks about blubb, seen here: + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 03:18 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 03:10 SomethingAwesome wrote:
I'm beginnging to like you Lay. Now find me scum! =)
What do you think about blubb? I think he is fishy... here: Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 19:50 blubbdavid wrote:I see, Blazinghand is switching cases so it looks like he doesn't sheep l10f. Well, jdup has made a good post regarding layabout's behaviour On May 06 2012 08:46 johnnywup wrote:
I think it is condemning, scum over-reacts to things like that (at least i think, ive never actually played scum). Of course laya didn't know kat would be modkilled, which is why it is condemning. If we didn't know kat's flip, it wouldn't be bad for either of them. It's just a townie pushing his reads on another person he thinks is townie, right? Since kat flipped, no. I don't know, the flip makes me think laya is more scummy. It took scum by surprise that Kat was modkilled. This is a strange thing to assert when as a townie you do not know who scum are and if they thought that Katina was coming back or not. Also when he votes for me he emphasises that it is to get me to answer his question. Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 20:32 blubbdavid wrote:layabout is scum. The question is: why would scum push BM? layabout was pushing BM so hard it was not even funny. Ok: layabaout, why were you so fucking desperate in pushing BM? till then, ##vote layaboutOn May 06 2012 19:51 Blazinghand wrote:On May 06 2012 19:50 blubbdavid wrote:
I see, Blazinghand is switching cases so it looks like he doesn't sheep l10f. you wanna mess + Show Spoiler + He begins by saying that i am scum. If he believes this then surely that should be the reason for his vote. By saying that he wants a response he gives himself a way to back out of pushing me. If he truly believes that i am scum then he would have no reason to do this.
#2And here are two little points that need to be noted: + Show Spoiler [P1] +On May 04 2012 07:35 layabout wrote:
BH you are just bitter because you blew your own leg off after you tried to rocket jump with the wrong boots on.
I think killing something awesome could be a good move. If we still have no candidates when i get up then i think we should just lynch BM. What he's saying is that he wants to kill SomethingAwesome, but he's too damn lazy to build a case or make a push on him. He's also practically asking everyone to do the scumhunting for him while he sits back and chills. He doesn't make a read, take a stance, or form an opinion on SA. The only time he ever mentions SA is if he is defending himself. On May 06 2012 00:55 layabout wrote:
we should kill Palmar tomorrow Later on, he posts this little baby. Again, just like with SomethingAwesome, he makes the suggestion of wanting to kill Palmar. He made no case on Palmar besides the little comment. When asked why, he posts this: On May 06 2012 09:23 layabout wrote:
@Mementoss i thought we should lynch Palmar over "any other lurker" because he showed basically no interest in the lynch at all. Palmar is lazy as scum but when he town he usually bothers to do ... "stuff". Of course, he had his reasons for it: + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 03:50 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 03:28 Blazinghand wrote:On May 07 2012 03:00 layabout wrote:
BH is also criticising me for saying that we should kill the player that he decided to shoot.
False. I am criticizing you for saying we should kill Palmar, and not posting a case against him until 9 hours, after daybreak. Did you actually read my case? On May 07 2012 03:00 layabout wrote:
have i missed anything? Yes, my criticism is based on HOW you did what you did, not what you did. Is it really typical layabout play to make a 1-sentence accusation halfway through the night then not follow up with a case until after daybreak? Cause I had some respect for your town play... Yesterday, between the hours of (UK time) 5pm and 1 am i was otherwise engaged. + Show Spoiler +. I posted that "we should kill Palmar" when i heard a knock at the door. Now try think of a way to write that without it sounding lame. And I'm willing to give him benefit of the doubt, mainly because there are other reasons to think he is scum.
#3Just about more than half of layabout's posts consist only defending himself. His only other notable thing is when he puts attention and calls out jdub: + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 10:00 layabout wrote:@papapanda, The number of players that make sense is far smaller than you appear to think it is. You should treasure the ones that do. Johnnywub:skim through his filter from Area 53 mafia http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128&user=99700These are some of his comments (+1 from host) after the game. + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 09:18 iGrok wrote:
Johnny is probably town MVP. Matt is scum MVP.
Also, well done by scum not to give up when St.Daniel got modkilled. On May 05 2012 09:06 johnnywup wrote:
it was too late, i was away and it was 5:01. also fml i feel so shitty now. I had decent reads but I can't convey reads for shit. On May 05 2012 09:28 johnnywup wrote:
im sorry i failed you town On May 05 2012 09:35 johnnywup wrote:
bleh i feel so guilty for this game. if i conveyed my reads a little better or something i dont know but bleh On May 05 2012 09:41 johnnywup wrote:
i thought you were scum mattchew and thats primarily because you allowed an ottox lynch with 2 confirmed scum. but no one listened to me so ugh On May 05 2012 09:49 johnnywup wrote:
matt, the timing didn't make sense as town which was my second biggest issue. but no one listened to me. urghh The key things to note are that Johnny: - Posts a lot, this does not necessarily mean that we should expect him to have a massive filter but he does put a lot of time, thought and energy into the game as town.
- He is concerned about communicating his ideas to others and convincing them
- He is working to improve his town game
- He feels like he owes town something
I see no signs of his town game so far. johnnywub is sitting back and watching the thread. When i called him out he instantly de-lurked, said nothing, and left. + Show Spoiler [Today's post's] +On May 07 2012 04:45 johnnywup wrote:
I'll be completely honest, I've been addicted to that 999 game so I haven't been posting much.
Also I don't want any gold stars. i looked at a filter, saw something odd, pointed it out. that's what all town should be doing. Speaking of which I'm gonna look over some filters now. I'll report back when I have something substantial On May 07 2012 04:52 johnnywup wrote:lol i love how NT says "it would be correct to be shooting into the lurker crowd" while lurking himself  On May 07 2012 04:54 johnnywup wrote:
i just noticed that from your post and thought it was interesting. i guess it is rehashing. I'm just agreeing that it's strange and scummy On May 07 2012 05:02 johnnywup wrote:
Paqman Marv BH and Mementoss are all saying the same thing at approximately the same time? weird, maybe you just agree with one another and want to quote it as if you found it yourself? O_o But even then, he makes no stance. He doesn't pressure jdub, doesn't make some sort fos, does nothing except call him out for lurking. I would say that that is his only other contributing post. Read through his filter and it becomes apparent that he puts more effort into defending himself than hunting scum.
#4The next thing I want to bring up is how quickly he comes to defend Kenpachi. + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 21:48 layabout wrote:
If blubbdavid Nova_Terra and Paqman are the remaining scum then kenpachi has got all of them.
On May 07 2012 21:51 layabout wrote:
frogg we are not lynching kenpachi.
don't be silly. On May 07 2012 22:12 layabout wrote:I would love to know how you felt that this: + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 04:37 Nova_Terra wrote:
Next, Kenpachi
Absolutely worthless, if you consider his connection case useful i dunno what to say
Vote: Kenpachi On May 07 2012 13:19 PaqMan wrote:Just found out that I'm probably going to miss the lynch. I guess it doesn't bother anyone how fast a wagon formed on NT? I don't feel comfortable putting my vote back onto him. Hence this quote: Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:11 Kenpachi wrote:On May 06 2012 06:48 Blazinghand wrote:Yeah, I shot Palmar. He looked like scum to me. I gave him the benefit of the doubt D1 but he didn't contribute and was silent, as scum Palmar tends to be. Here's my crumb: On May 06 2012 03:27 Blazinghand wrote:
Man this situation just makes me want to eat my own heart Type "eat heart of" into google search (but don't hit enter) and it'll suggest "eat heart of palm" Palm -> Palmar, my target. rofl are you kidding me His only post since D2 started. He ninja-voted D1, isn't contributing and the few posts he has are very lackluster. From what I understand Kenpachi is a veteran, yet he's been the least helpful out of everyone (excluding Froggynoddy, who is inactive). Also this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:31 Kenpachi wrote:ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME? DO YOU NOT NOTICE THE TREND HERE? NT i thought at first was not mafia but then layabout cames along and throws in POLICY LYNCH TIME NO NO NO WTF? NO i believe layabout and NT are mafia together because NT NT had aroused suspicions in thread andended in hotshit. He was completely saved by something so stupid. layabout, as his buttbuddy saves him with such a weak push that only the newbs are following. by experience, policy lynch almost always never works. its a scare tactic, not an actual method used to lynch people, especially day 1 i also believe marvellosity is mafia with them because he said NT is scummy and changes his mind like nothing happened Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote:
At the moment Nova looks the scummiest for reasons already expanded upon by others. The fact that so little of anything has occurred today makes Nova's stance that he doesn't want to air his tentative reads all the worse.
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:53 marvellosity wrote:
Sold, I don't have a solid scumread on anyone and BM is just useless and anti-town no matter his alignment.
such a contradiction, they were made about 3 hours apart. BM is a potent player and everyone knows that. I feel day 1 lynching a veteran is the worst thing you can do. If i were mafia, id put BM near the top of my priority list just because of his sheer experience. He made his scum reads and calls out who he believes to be the remaining scum team. But he doesn't push for their lynch or pressure them or anything at all. As of now I think Kenpachi is a better option than NT. ##Vote KenpachiI'm hoping I'll make it back before the deadline but I'm not too sure. was the best lynch to support? Why dont you have a look through here and tell me what you learn about kenpachi's play? Then address the cases on the people that should get lynched: Blubbdavid or Nova_Terra or might get mislynched: layabout. On May 07 2012 22:26 layabout wrote:EBWOP*So you are saying that it doesn't matter if your logic for voting on day1 is weak/contradictory/scummy because we have limited information? Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:19 froggynoddy wrote:On May 07 2012 22:15 layabout wrote:On May 07 2012 22:07 froggynoddy wrote:EBWOP: was reading through blubb's and then NT's filter's, (NT's attack of him seems odd: did he explain wtf he meant by that?!?) as former being your vote and the latter having the most votes. I'd rather blub defended himself as it will give us more to work with but a lot of what you've said, Laya, seem to be a criticism of blubb's Day 1 vote logic, which as we all know is bound to be weak. Most of our votes were bound to be wrong, and all of our logic to be hugely flawed due to limited evidence. So you are saying that it doesn't matter if your logic for voting on day1 is weak/contracitory/scummy because we have limited information? No, I'm saying that its less likely of being alignment indicative then actual thread activity at this point. But Kenpachi has been more "active" than froggnoddy, Eiii, l10f, ghost_403 johnnywub, grush, mementoss, sinensis and papaganda. He might not even have PC acess at the momnet That post^ is complete BS that I don't even understand how he could have possibly came to that conclusion. The only person he's been more active than is froggynoddy, and even then Froggy's posts have way more quality than KP's does. On May 07 2012 22:35 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:26 froggynoddy wrote:On May 07 2012 22:12 layabout wrote:I would love to know how you felt that this: + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2012 04:37 Nova_Terra wrote:
Next, Kenpachi
Absolutely worthless, if you consider his connection case useful i dunno what to say
Vote: Kenpachi On May 07 2012 13:19 PaqMan wrote:Just found out that I'm probably going to miss the lynch. I guess it doesn't bother anyone how fast a wagon formed on NT? I don't feel comfortable putting my vote back onto him. Hence this quote: Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:11 Kenpachi wrote:On May 06 2012 06:48 Blazinghand wrote:Yeah, I shot Palmar. He looked like scum to me. I gave him the benefit of the doubt D1 but he didn't contribute and was silent, as scum Palmar tends to be. Here's my crumb: On May 06 2012 03:27 Blazinghand wrote:
Man this situation just makes me want to eat my own heart Type "eat heart of" into google search (but don't hit enter) and it'll suggest "eat heart of palm" Palm -> Palmar, my target. rofl are you kidding me His only post since D2 started. He ninja-voted D1, isn't contributing and the few posts he has are very lackluster. From what I understand Kenpachi is a veteran, yet he's been the least helpful out of everyone (excluding Froggynoddy, who is inactive). Also this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:31 Kenpachi wrote:ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME? DO YOU NOT NOTICE THE TREND HERE? NT i thought at first was not mafia but then layabout cames along and throws in POLICY LYNCH TIME NO NO NO WTF? NO i believe layabout and NT are mafia together because NT NT had aroused suspicions in thread andended in hotshit. He was completely saved by something so stupid. layabout, as his buttbuddy saves him with such a weak push that only the newbs are following. by experience, policy lynch almost always never works. its a scare tactic, not an actual method used to lynch people, especially day 1 i also believe marvellosity is mafia with them because he said NT is scummy and changes his mind like nothing happened Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote:
At the moment Nova looks the scummiest for reasons already expanded upon by others. The fact that so little of anything has occurred today makes Nova's stance that he doesn't want to air his tentative reads all the worse.
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:53 marvellosity wrote:
Sold, I don't have a solid scumread on anyone and BM is just useless and anti-town no matter his alignment.
such a contradiction, they were made about 3 hours apart. BM is a potent player and everyone knows that. I feel day 1 lynching a veteran is the worst thing you can do. If i were mafia, id put BM near the top of my priority list just because of his sheer experience. He made his scum reads and calls out who he believes to be the remaining scum team. But he doesn't push for their lynch or pressure them or anything at all. As of now I think Kenpachi is a better option than NT. ##Vote KenpachiI'm hoping I'll make it back before the deadline but I'm not too sure. was the best lynch to support? Why dont you have a look through here and tell me what you learn about kenpachi's play? Then address the cases on the people that should get lynched: Blubbdavid or Nova_Terra or might get mislynched: layabout. Ok, so... are you trying to show me that because he plays like this both as town and scum we should excuse untowny behaviour? I don't like that as an argument as untowny behaviour should always be punished. That being said I understand that perhaps this would be a better job for any vigs we have left. It just seems unlikely unless we do unless we have a pyro. I will keep reading through threads and see if anything convinces me. As I said, other than what I think about lynching into inactives, NT's weird post (see above post) and your hard defence on Katina seem like the strongest indications of scumminess imo. It was more of an "inactivity from a player that's always inactive is meaningless". There is also some merit to the notion that scum will try to lynch Kenpachi.I am not sure what you are trying to say but blue pyro's are trackers not not vigis. Again, you cannot be freaking serious. You pushed for BM's lynch, am I correct? S O HOW ARE YOU DEFENDING KP WHEN KP'S PLAY MATCHES EXACTLY LIKE BM! lurk, lurk, lurk, inactive, spam one-liners, purposely not contribute, purposely play anti-town. KP said that he's so busy he cannot possibly play, but he could have EASILY come up with a small read/fos/case on someone. Instead, he wastes what little time he has to shit up the thread. KP is the most anti-town player in the game right now, and you're defending him hard. Remind me why you wanted BM lynched.
#5 + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 07:04 Bill Murray wrote:
well, layabout hopping on the lynch makes me really suspect him
he would normally leave me around if he's town
of my wagon, i would like you all to lynch layabout On May 08 2012 04:22 blubbdavid wrote:
layabout is scum, SA is town
I will not move my vote from layabout
-snipped- Hmm. The victims of our mislynches both suggest to lynch layabout. And so far we're ignoring them.
Why I believe layabout to be scum boils down to; 1) Has nothing on blubb, but as soon as DYH pushes a case and lynch on him, layabout makes a weak case and pushes it forward as if he had been suspecting him for a while. 2) layabout does not create his own scumreads, does not establish his own opinions, and does not make his own stance. He has other people do the work for him, and then he starts pushing reads. Basically, he's not scum hunting. 3) All of layabout's "good, quality posts" are the only ones where he is defending himself, not doing any actual scumhunting. 4) People previously thought his analysis on Kat was an attempt at soft-defending. But after individually separating his posts, we can all clearly see how hard he is defending Kenpachi. KP's play is awfully similar to BM's. 5) I'm restating this one because I feel it's one of the stronger points against layabout: He does not actively hunt scum. All he does is push other people's reads.
I retract my FoS on him. I'm confident that layabout is scum and I want him lynched tomorrow.
^spoilered for reference.
Personally I think today's lynch should be between NT and layabout (with my preference of laya, of course)
|
Its sad how little town reads I have of the remaining 12 people.
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 10 2012 06:40 Mementoss wrote:
Its sad how little town reads I have of the remaining 12 people.
Who are you favouring for the lynch after the activity in the last few pages?
|
On May 10 2012 06:44 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 06:40 Mementoss wrote:
Its sad how little town reads I have of the remaining 12 people. Who are you favouring for the lynch after the activity in the last few pages?
NT still. Layabout a close second. Only other person I think is suspicious that is not a total lurker is possibly paqman. I have null reads on a lot of the lurkers I don't know which one would be best. Sinesis or Froggy probably. Im going out to the pub now. Will look into it when I get back.
NT still seems scummy as hell as does layabout. And all my current town reads are voting him which is usually a good sign. Gah not sure what to do. Will re-assess later.
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 10 2012 06:48 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 06:44 marvellosity wrote:On May 10 2012 06:40 Mementoss wrote:
Its sad how little town reads I have of the remaining 12 people. Who are you favouring for the lynch after the activity in the last few pages? NT still. Layabout a close second. Only other person I think is suspicious that is not a total lurker is possibly paqman. I have null reads on a lot of the lurkers I don't know which one would be best. Sinesis or Froggy probably. Im going out to the pub now. Will look into it when I get back. NT still seems scummy as hell as does layabout. And all my current town reads are voting him which is usually a good sign. Gah not sure what to do. Will re-assess later.
At the moment I have serious eyes on grush. I'd love to provide some sort of filter based analysis, but there is nothing. He seems to be living off his "I voted for katina and unvoted her immediately, and I spent two lines questioning sinani, when realistically this means nothing as they got mod-killed" mantra.
Beyond that I see a lot of "lol you're scum!" posts in various guises. And one-liners that literally say nothing. I can't see anything pro-town in his filter.
You scum grush? Or do you actually have a real case to make on somebody? One quote for giggles, as this is about your level of contribution:
On May 09 2012 04:40 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:12 layabout wrote:On May 09 2012 04:04 johnnywup wrote:
Personally, I think I'm a bad lynch. But that's probably because I'm the one dying. marv's post on me is true, I'm usually more active than this. That's for a number of reasons I don't think are really relevant to the game. laya had a "sudo-FoS" on me, but I agree the non-commital-ness isn't settling. It could be looking for a weak townie (which I will admit I am this game) to lynch. But it could be me looking legitimately scummy. I can see both perspectives. But since a wagon is somewhat forming I'd like to ask you what you gain if I flip scum or town. If I flip scum, you have a dead scum, but no info regarding the other scum-members. If I flip town, you get nothing. Best case scenario, you kill a scum. Worst case scenario, you kill a vanilla townie. Killing a VT at this stage in the game isn't too bad so if push comes to shove and you're lynching me, go ahead. Town won't lose that much. But the thing is, you lose a lynch to a townie and scum gets another 2 kills. If my death confirms other suspicions I'd lynch myself. But as of now it doesn't. Not to mention I have no scum motivations for anything I've done, which albeit is little.
I don't think you have any other reason to blame me as scum other than "unwillingness to post reads or post cases or be active". Which is all inherent in inactivity. I haven't been playing to my ability and I apologize.
Bleh this is just a train of thoughts :/ If you are town then i am leaving. I am sick of playing with people that refuse to put in the effort. Why you aren't you scum? Don't you like easy lynches?
|
On May 10 2012 05:21 grush57 wrote:
HAHAHAHAH well froggynoddy and layabout are confirmed scum, they just both went on my case as it was a coincidence, even though both cases suck. GL getting the town to lynch with you.
Nice OMGUS... again. If you want to defend yourself, do it. If you want to write a case against me (despite you doing it as a result of OMGUS), do that too.
for the moment you have some weird weak WIFOM attack against me. Why the hell would scum purposefully double case and then make it look like an accident with Laya saying that I'm confirmed town??? (i'm pretty sure it was a sarcastic comment as people had been attacking him for not making a stand... which is what I just did... an english trait I'm sure) At worst its alignment independent.
|
On May 10 2012 06:31 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 06:06 papapanda wrote:On May 10 2012 05:54 Nova_Terra wrote:[spoiler] On May 10 2012 05:44 papapanda wrote:On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Just got back from yet another apple store, looks like im gonna have to take an hour train ride to get to a place where teh iphone can be repaired for around 150$
isnt it wonderful
So anyway, as I promised i will be making an effort to do some analysis, i decided to do a bit of filter analysis on papapanda
Please read his filter along with this case
papapandas filter is surprisingly short. I didnt realize this until i actually went through his filter. Less than 2 pages.
Papapanda starts off the game decently, actually. He seems to post some minor analysis on behavior at the beginning of the game in regards to blubb and grush. I made a neat compilation of all your post into a word document and counted your words to be 2653. I excluded all text in quotes. This data is up to this post. On May 10 2012 04:56 Nova_Terra wrote:On May 10 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:
froggynoddy you are now confirmed town
so my scumteam is in here:
grush57
l10f
Eiii
papapanda cant tell if forgotten or actually made it out of the scumreads I also made one for myself, ofcourse excluding all text in quotes, and the count is 2213(not including this post, which has 280 words). 4 pages? 4 pages of spam maybe. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:On May 03 2012 10:15 papapanda wrote:My guess is that grush is semi-lurker and just have been reading/agreeing/sheeping with what information that has/hasnot been posted by you. At first I would've have passed off the blue/green slip from blubbdavid as misreading because I can imagine myself accidentally misreading/mis-pronouncing blue/green. But from his defensive post i have to be a little suspicious. On May 03 2012 07:55 blubbdavid wrote:
One post on D1 doesn't make someone scum. Even if I probably deserve a warning for my stupidity.
Will defend myself tomorrow, it's late here. And if it is even worth it.
And when you vote, please use the proper thread. It is reasonable to vote for blubb if no one else comes out with major slip-ups, and the town has to lynch someone. Otherwise I would sit back and wait for N1 or D2 when more information might be available. Me is hardcore BLU! However, at the same time, i noticed a bit of noncommittal behavior on his thoughts on blubb. "i thought he probably misread, but im still somewhat suspicious" just say you have a neutral read if you're neutral on him. Then he kinda tries to make a very early bandwagon target. I dont like that. I was not neutral on Blubb at that stage of the game, your summary of my post is very underrepresentative. It should be"I thought he misread, but his defense made me suspicious." I didn't think that was enough evidence to lynch him ATM. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Then theres a bunch of 1 liners, with a question that makes it seem like he is contributing. he likes to continually state that he will lynch/unvote blubb, while at the same time saying nothing else about anyone. another thing to note is he puts a "placeholder vote" on blubb in case he cant make the deadline, effectively setting himself up to not be there and not post if he doesnt have to.
Then he jumps on the GRUSH BE HELPFUL NOT THIS SHIT "contribution" bandwagon. I would like to remind you that I did, in fact, post afterwards when I realize that I would not miss the deadline. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:Now here comes the parts that i think are pretty scummy. On May 05 2012 05:23 papapanda wrote:
Blazinghand:
I hate to be stepping into your line of fire, but I didn't find NT's post to be as bad as you make it sound like it is. Actually, I found that many of the points he made was very similar to the ones I tried to make.
I agree with you on "too dumb to be scum" is not an argument at all but I also do not believe grush to be scum, even though he isn't helping much (blubbdavid, I said this in my previous post but this is basically all my thought on grush as of now).
In fact, I share NT's suspicion of sinensis, and I assure you this is not just OMGUS. My original comment was just to get him to further explain his vote because he actually didn't say anything before his second response. I was shocked at what I believe to be an over-defensive reaction, one that might be coming from having something to hide, from sin. Given, he did provide sufficient evidence of reasoning, but he's accusation of me can hardly be called a read(from yourself, blazinghand).
I am still undecided on a vote. I have some gut feelings about a few persons but no evidence to base that off of. This post goes like this SOFT DEFENSE SOFT DEFENSE AGREEMENT AGREEMENT SOFT DEFENSE and fluff. then he says he is totally undecided. come on, really? you can make a post spamming agreement and soft defense, but you cant make a solid read? No, I couldn't make a solid read because I didn't have enough information. This is your read: On May 05 2012 06:00 Nova_Terra wrote:
In accordance with popular demand, i will share my top scumread which is currently Mementoss (not based on OMGUS)
mementoss starts off suggesting to policy lynch two people, etc. Makes a few totally unneccessary 1 liners, and then when he is called out on it he goes NO WAIT i has reason, then decided to teach us, which just came off freaking weird.
Then he goes aggressive on layabout, throwing suspicion while not doing much of anything, then joins the Grush did something scummy this looks really bad group. not original. then after blazing notes something on me he joins in that too, and makes remarks in an unsure way, seeming to want to be able to backtrack if necessary. then, when called out on it, he goes into defensive aggression mode and suddenly gains massive confidence which hadnt been in his play before.
Overall
1liners
Enlightens us on 1 liners
throws suspicion while not doing much at all
joins scummy bandwagon
seems unsure
agrees with an Oh i noticed the same thing!
makes arguments based on my meta, which is questionable entirely based on the fact that i never play this lurky, town or scum
randomly gets massively confident, as opposed to his earlier play, its as if someone told him to be more sure
and so ##Vote: Mementoss Seems to fit yourself better then mementoss. solid? No. On May 10 2012 04:17 Nova_Terra wrote:
Next comes a puny case of marvellosity after saying a conspiracy theory about how BM's lynching was orchestrated by scum, which seems mighty convenient coming from someone who soft defended BM and didnt take part in his lynch
Then he reposts an idea from layabout and says its "interesting", then agrees again with someone else and sets up a cute little train "marv next after layabout" setting up for future lynch.
Goes on to criticize defense again and agains, and now he goes back to a neutral read on blubb. and says that the only reason to think blubb was scum was becuase of his slip day 1 (wait, didnt he say that he thought this wasnt scummy and he could have easily done the same thing?)
And some more 1 liners.
Later,
"i can see why you want to lynch N_T but like N_T said"
MORE AGREEMENT, MORE AGREEMENT, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
PUSH SOMETHING OTHER THEN LAYABOUT/MARV MOOOOOOORE
Then he seems like hes making a misunderstanding about mementoss on purpose
allaround,
Agrees a shitton, 1 liners a ton, and tunnels a good bit, soft defends so he can use it later
so right now i feel comfortable putting a vote on him
##Vote: papapanda Keyword is last section is "Agree". Yes, I will admit if I am seeing a player agreeing all the time, it raises some suspicion that he is trying to stay off the radar. However, this is how I talk/post; if you want I can try to change that but it might/not work. If you feel like this is enough to lynch me, I won't pressure you for more reason, but I want you to seriously reconsider. I think I have my two scums in layabout and marv. While I am definitely keeping my head up for other suspicious people, this is where my focus lies. If you want to find someone with little posts, look at sinensis. Hmm. I find it interesting that you seem to think that your reads were solid and mine werent. mine were "mem does X Y And Z scummy" and voted on it, yours were "i agree with X that Y is scummy but it goes along with Ys meta" etc. with no real pressure on it a all. Please change the agree thing. I will think over your posting more, but for now i leave my vote on you. i am interested as to what your two scumreads flip as, however. What I said was it was too early for any case to be solid. No worries, layabout:p Then say that youre neutral leaning scum or something on him. dont say this "makes him normal but this is scummy" and do nothing with it
I did nothing in terms of getting blubb lynch day one, if thats what you mean. However, I did put a vote on him when he was my most suspicious player before points on BM where brought up.
|
@Paq damn i am tired. I go quite off topic in this, but it should help.
point#1
is not reasonable.
It appears to me that you have expectations of me that you clearly do not have of others and that those expectations are not realistic ones. From the comments you make they would appear to be along these lines:
1. That a player should be voicing suspicions against a player for quite a period of time before posting a case and then voting.
2. That a player should be voicing all of the suspicions that they have
I do not share all of my thoughts and suspicions with the thread. No one should. It results in too many cases being pushed, too many flimsy arguments being agonised over, and too many important points being missed. It would lead to chaos. Instead it is best to focus on a few players and have everyone talk about them. It helps to keep discussion relevant. And so i believe that the best thing to do as a townie is to focus on pushing one or maybe two players depending on your level of certainty.
On day2 we knew that 3/18 players were mafia.
I had 8 players that i felt were town. Of the remaining 12 i disregarded the players that i felt i couldn't read (kenpachi, ghost)
and went from there. To me the scummiest of the remaining players were Johnnywub and Blubbdavid.
So
I am not sure what this is. It's sort of what i thought before posting, hopefully it will help you to understand my point of veiw.
+ Show Spoiler +You accuse me of jumping on blubb having not voiced suspicious of him.
let's add some context:
the vast majority of my posts occur in the evening for me and will nearly all lie in an 8 hour timeslot.
So early day1 i felt was largely wasted and i was not enjoying going through lot's of posts about nothing.
I returned to a divided and leaderless thread with what i viewed as a very small chance of lynching scum. So i tried to make the best of the situation and lynch BM (a lurker). I offered my opinion on what was being discussed.
I began my posting on day 2 (not including the hurried message in the early hours of the morning) by addressing the points raised against me. Whilst reading through them i looked over a number of players including blubbdavid. Almost immediately after i posted my defence SA asked me for my thoughts on blubb so i shared what i was suspicious of. I do not explicitly say "this is scummy" but i do highlight things that are.
After i seeing people cite reasons that i had already responded to and ask questions that were already answered and deliberately miss the point i grew frustrated. Angry, even. I looked at filters and what did i find? A bunch of inactives! Scoundrels that signed up and didn't really intend to play. People who offered little. People who offer almost nothing. People that are hard to analyse. But i made my scumreads. Johnnywub who was uncharacteristically watching the thread like a hawk but staying silent. And Blubbdavid who voted with questionable motivations.
So after responding to the points raised against me i wrote up what i had on Johnnywub and went to sleep. I woke up to find that the thread had moved at a snails pace, Johnnywub had no votes and DoYouHas had a case on Blubb, the main point of which was that blubb was posting as if he knew that i was town. This i something that i had wondered at and questioned in thread having looked at another of blubb's posts.
I think my point here is that i made the decisions to defend myself and to push my reads. I did not do so agressively but i tried to be objective. You are unfair to say that i say nothing at all or that i take no stance whatsoever. I actually say a hell of a lot more than other people have done before i place my vote (find your own examples)
point 2
p1 well i wanted to kill him initially because his posts were spammy. After not much time i concluded that SA was town and i stopped talking about SA since there was nothing to say.
p2 you retract.
point 3
I feel that that post paints Johhny in a pretty damning light, and that his response to it painted him in a worse light. Maybe i should have added a vote or written that he is scum a few times for emphasis. I judged that my vote was likely to put a lot of people off of voting for Johnnywub, but that my analysis without a vote might be looked at a little more objectively. I also don't like voting halfway through the day but i prefer to vote towards the end when then has been more information available to aid my decision.
point 4
kenpachi is pretty unreadable. Either you kill him of early, hope a vig shoots him or lynch him if you are sure that everyone else is town. He has a very anti-town playstyle. But lynching him is basically saying "i don't have any scumreads let's just kill this guy cus he is anti town. It's okay on day1 if your desperate. But past that you shouldn't be lynching him and pushing him over players that look scummy is somewhere between bad and anti-town since it is avoiding scumhunting. I would always call somebody out for a throwaway vote like that.
point 5
BM wasn't even playing and i hope you understand why i tend to leave BM around (see point 4). So his comment is of little to no value.
As for Blubb, well i did vote for him didn't i?
what hurt me was that when he said that i posted my case against him while he was away, before posting i checked his post times and saw that he had been online at around the time i was posting.
|
@ fog no it was not sarcastic, you have got to be town!
|
and with yet another typo i bid you goodnight!
##vote grush57
|
On May 10 2012 08:53 layabout wrote:
and with yet another typo i bid you goodnight!
##vote grush57
Gl with that. Geez all the scummy players are voting for me :'( (Though nova went papapanda lol?)
|
But yeah layabout is scum
##Vote: Layabout
|
8 beers in nova still scummy
|
Layabout keeps making compelling defenses... I am suddenly hesitant to keep my vote him. Especially since N_T is in the game; who hasn't made compelling posts to say the least and who hasn't put forth nearly as much effort.
The more I think about it though, nothing N_T does benefits scum... or town... or himself, so I am struggling here too. Do I choose the guy who talks nicer (layabout) or the guy who helps the enemy less (N_T)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
