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On April 27 2012 07:49 Radfield wrote:A shocking turn of events. Perhaps now we can focus on actual candidates. If anyone mentions lynching bluelightz tomorrow(our other easy lynch) I'm going to be very sad. Time to go in depth on Phagga. + Show Spoiler +I saw your posts Phagga, and I wasn't ignoring you. I've just been short of time to put in the legwork necessary to go beyond an initial bare bones scum-read.
I think you'll find a few jabs at Bluelightz in phagga's filter. This is like, the best game I've seen Bluelightz play in.
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On April 27 2012 07:58 Ace wrote:
Nice to know you've been keeping up Radfield! So why didn't you comment on Bluelightz ignoring the case on Zentor and throwing suspects out like a water cannon before? And yes he is the easy lynch for tomorrow.
You never say whether you agree with a BL lynch. Do you?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I really don't see Bluelights as a good lynch candidate for tomorrow. His posting just doesn't say scum to me.
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On April 27 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:There is no way we are lynching bluelightz tomorrow, and I don't even have a READ on him yet(let alone think he is town). But Bluelightz posts are so random and bouncy that ANYONE can make a half-assed case without trying. A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch). Tomorrow we do things my way. We actually scumhunt, we build cases, we discuss and we don't just drop back on some weak bluelightz case. (unless someone want's to build a serious and thought out case on bluelightz, which I have no problem with) Only 8 minutes and you made me sad Ace 
hold up playa - I didn't say we WILL lynch him. I said he's the easy lynch. I think we did learn plenty from Zentor's lynch:
1.) You and/or Bluelightz knew ahead of time that he was innocent because one of you is Scum. I think BL is the easy lynch precisely because of this. He didn't actually address the arguments against Zentor. Just calling out suspects with every new post.
2.) Even if you think the Zentor lynch was easy everyone knew it was coming. There is NO way anyone that is competent at this game would have let someone playing like that live. Just because it was easy doesn't mean it was bad. Once again - look at his posts and look at my post outlining how the chain of events happened. Address those points if you want to defend this lynch.
Don't worry about being sad though, I'm here to make everything better.
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On April 27 2012 08:16 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 07:58 Ace wrote:
Nice to know you've been keeping up Radfield! So why didn't you comment on Bluelightz ignoring the case on Zentor and throwing suspects out like a water cannon before? And yes he is the easy lynch for tomorrow. You never say whether you agree with a BL lynch. Do you?
You asked me about him recently?
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Snarfs, what is your opinion on Sbrubbles? Have you played with him before?
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I don't agree that BL is even a proper candidate - and I find it odd that Rad and Ace both seem to think he's the "easy lynch".
This game is...very odd. I'll post my final thoughts before dawn.
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On April 27 2012 08:34 Forumite wrote:
Snarfs, what is your opinion on Sbrubbles? Have you played with him before?
I've played with him once before in DFM2. I think he's town, probably one of the least suspicious people in my opinion.
He hasn't posted a lot, but I don't think that that's a scumtell. When he has posted, he's made it clear what his opinions are on certain people. He's called out people he thought were suspicious, for good reasons, even when there was no attention directed towards them, which has made him stand out in a good way. That and I agree with lots of what he's saying.
I wish he would post more, but that's honestly my only complaint so far with his play.
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On April 27 2012 08:21 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 08:16 Snarfs wrote:On April 27 2012 07:58 Ace wrote:
Nice to know you've been keeping up Radfield! So why didn't you comment on Bluelightz ignoring the case on Zentor and throwing suspects out like a water cannon before? And yes he is the easy lynch for tomorrow. You never say whether you agree with a BL lynch. Do you? You asked me about him recently?
 I don't think I did, but it doesn't matter, you answered Radfield which answered me!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 27 2012 08:20 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:There is no way we are lynching bluelightz tomorrow, and I don't even have a READ on him yet(let alone think he is town). But Bluelightz posts are so random and bouncy that ANYONE can make a half-assed case without trying. A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch). Tomorrow we do things my way. We actually scumhunt, we build cases, we discuss and we don't just drop back on some weak bluelightz case. (unless someone want's to build a serious and thought out case on bluelightz, which I have no problem with) Only 8 minutes and you made me sad Ace hold up playa - I didn't say we WILL lynch him. I said he's the easy lynch. I think we did learn plenty from Zentor's lynch: 1.) You and/or Bluelightz knew ahead of time that he was innocent because one of you is Scum. I think BL is the easy lynch precisely because of this. He didn't actually address the arguments against Zentor. Just calling out suspects with every new post. 2.) Even if you think the Zentor lynch was easy everyone knew it was coming. There is NO way anyone that is competent at this game would have let someone playing like that live. Just because it was easy doesn't mean it was bad. Once again - look at his posts and look at my post outlining how the chain of events happened. Address those points if you want to defend this lynch. Don't worry about being sad though, I'm here to make everything better.
1) That is awfully simplistic, and an obviously incorrect way of scumhunting. Also who cares if he's calling out suspects with every new post? Initially you were bent out of shape because you felt he was redirecting away from a mafia lynch. Yet that is obviously not the case as Zentor was town, so presumably bluelightz goes from someone fighting for a scum buddy, to simply an eager townie looking for scum. Why are you trying to set him up for a Day 3 lynch?
2) I am a competent player and I would have let Zentor live. Zentor had done nothing that screamed scum and had spotlighted himself in a way very few scum ever would.
Regardless, Zentor is dead and multiple town players were convinced of his guilt. Had he not died today he would have only been a distraction moving forward.
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What you deem as an incorrect way of scumhunting, I see as a golden opportunity for Scum to buy cred. And since I've done it multiple times myself as Scum I think I would know it when I see it.
Majority of the Town thinks Player A is Scum. Scum knows Player A is innocent, gets on any wagon not involving Player A. When Player A flips Town goes with the "I told you so!" rhetoric.
This is why BEFORE Zentor flipped I outlined that no one attacked the case on Mr.Zentor but instead brought up new suspects to divert the wagon. Go ahead and REREAD the thread. If I'm wrong - show me. Show me where anyone had an actual breakdown of the cases on Zentor being wrong instead of "I don't think a Townie would act like this". Saying zentor did nothing that screamed out he is Scum is just comical.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm not really convinced that Phagga is scum. Upon further inpection his posting actually seems ok.
I had not even realized that only 2 scum was a possibility. I was obviously reading the C9++ setup wrong.
At any rate, it seems fairly likely that we don't have a lot of power roles this game. Consider:
No masons, as they would've claimed
No jailkeepers, as no on claimed a roleblock
No vigilantes fired on N1
No Serial Killer, as there was only 1 kill(possibly overlap though)
1 1-shot Cop, likely no second full cop.
No roleblockers, again as no one claimed a roleblock. This is doubly important, as combined with no SK it means we know the setup exactly:
1 Goon, 1 Godfather, 1 Town Power role(me). Unless I've messed up on reading, this is the setup.
This means that if Ace is scum, there is actually a 50% chance that I failed on my check, and there was only a single player in the game that I could actually get a positive result from.
This actually makes me feel a lot better both about my constant scum-read from Ace, as well as my glut of town reads.
Ace, you mentioned VE was number 3 scum on your list, and I assume Zentor was #1. Who was you're number 2?
Phagga, what are your scum reads right now?
prplhz, your Day 2 contributions have been very lacking. Now that Zentor is nice and dead, where do you see the scum lying?
On April 26 2012 07:18 Snarfs wrote:
Before we get all crazy with the "maybe snarfs", know that VE is right at the top of my scum list. My vote on MrZentor is more a policy vote than a scum vote. I'm trying my best to find scum and it felt like his actions were undermining that goal.
This is some weak weak sauce Snarfs. I have been trying to find scum too, and Zentor impinged not one bit on my abilities to do so. Why is VE at the top of your scum list? Who else do you see as scum right now? Who is unlynchablely town in your eyes(and why)?
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BL is my #2 Scum read.
It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 27 2012 09:56 Ace wrote:
What you deem as an incorrect way of scumhunting, I see as a golden opportunity for Scum to buy cred. And since I've done it multiple times myself as Scum I think I would know it when I see it.
Majority of the Town thinks Player A is Scum. Scum knows Player A is innocent, gets on any wagon not involving Player A. When Player A flips Town goes with the "I told you so!" rhetoric.
This is why BEFORE Zentor flipped I outlined that no one attacked the case on Mr.Zentor but instead brought up new suspects to divert the wagon. Go ahead and REREAD the thread. If I'm wrong - show me. Show me where anyone had an actual breakdown of the cases on Zentor being wrong instead of "I don't think a Townie would act like this". Saying zentor did nothing that screamed out he is Scum is just comical.
Look I know the drill, and I've obviously done it before as scum too. I just strongly object the way that you are setting up bluelightz for a Day 3 lynch, based mainly off the fact that he refused to vote for a now confirmed town, and instead searched about for better targets. It's simplistic to say that of the two players NOT voting for Zentor, one of us is scum. It is not far fetched at all for the entire mafia team to pile on Zentor, particularly if we're looking at a two player team.
There was no case on Zentor to even attack. No one could dispute his actions, you can only dispute his motivations - were they mafia motivated to mess up a thread, or just a bored trolling townie. That is not something you can debate or attack, you can only state your opinion on the matter.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 27 2012 10:06 Ace wrote:
BL is my #2 Scum read.
It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up.
Why do you say that?
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++
Am I reading the setup options wrong?
Bugs, it having a 2 player scum team one possible setup of a C9++?
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On April 27 2012 10:11 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:06 Ace wrote:
BL is my #2 Scum read.
It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up.
Why do you say that? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++Am I reading the setup options wrong? Bugs, it having a 2 player scum team one possible setup of a C9++?
sure
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On April 27 2012 10:11 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:06 Ace wrote:
BL is my #2 Scum read.
It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up.
Why do you say that? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++Am I reading the setup options wrong? Bugs, it having a 2 player scum team one possible setup of a C9++?
I've never seen the Goon + Godfather only Scum team in a 13 player setup with no SK. Even accounting for a 1 shot Cop that is a damn hard setup for Scum to win from.
On April 27 2012 10:10 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 09:56 Ace wrote:
What you deem as an incorrect way of scumhunting, I see as a golden opportunity for Scum to buy cred. And since I've done it multiple times myself as Scum I think I would know it when I see it.
Majority of the Town thinks Player A is Scum. Scum knows Player A is innocent, gets on any wagon not involving Player A. When Player A flips Town goes with the "I told you so!" rhetoric.
This is why BEFORE Zentor flipped I outlined that no one attacked the case on Mr.Zentor but instead brought up new suspects to divert the wagon. Go ahead and REREAD the thread. If I'm wrong - show me. Show me where anyone had an actual breakdown of the cases on Zentor being wrong instead of "I don't think a Townie would act like this". Saying zentor did nothing that screamed out he is Scum is just comical.
Look I know the drill, and I've obviously done it before as scum too. I just strongly object the way that you are setting up bluelightz for a Day 3 lynch, based mainly off the fact that he refused to vote for a now confirmed town, and instead searched about for better targets. It's simplistic to say that of the two players NOT voting for Zentor, one of us is scum. It is not far fetched at all for the entire mafia team to pile on Zentor, particularly if we're looking at a two player team. There was no case on Zentor to even attack. No one could dispute his actions, you can only dispute his motivations - were they mafia motivated to mess up a thread, or just a bored trolling townie. That is not something you can debate or attack, you can only state your opinion on the matter.
My own are right here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14479651
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14479763
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14480050
I analyzed his actions in all my posts and yes you can dispute them. It's exactly what I did. I said even before Zentor flipped and I'll say it again: No one addressed any of the cases, or "people posting about Zentor's actions" if thats what you want to call it. No one. It was just throwing other suspects names out there and saying "I dont think a Townie would do this" which is not the way to convince other players NOT to lynch someone. Really, it's just appearing to defend a guy while not giving a shit.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Marvellosity, how did you go from having a town read on Zentor Day 1. Defending him 3 separate times, to this:
On April 25 2012 06:26 marvellosity wrote:
I really don't get why Radfield has a town read on Zentor.
Zentor is being actively unhelpful. In fact that's all he's doing. Where is this town read coming from?
On April 25 2012 06:47 marvellosity wrote:
I'm going to say it again. I don't understand Radfield's strong town-read on Zentor at all, when he's only been unconstructive.
Is this not odd?
Really? After having your own town read on him and then slowly swaying towards wanting to lynch him, you can no longer fathom how someone else might still have a town read on him?
You had a town read, though yours changed,
I had a town read, though mine did not.
Why was that so hard to fathom? Keep in mind I understand how you derived your scum read, I just don't see where your confusion comes from about my town read.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 27 2012 10:22 Radfield wrote:Marvellosity, how did you go from having a town read on Zentor Day 1. Defending him 3 separate times, to this: Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:26 marvellosity wrote:
I really don't get why Radfield has a town read on Zentor.
Zentor is being actively unhelpful. In fact that's all he's doing. Where is this town read coming from? Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:47 marvellosity wrote:
I'm going to say it again. I don't understand Radfield's strong town-read on Zentor at all, when he's only been unconstructive.
Is this not odd? Really? After having your own town read on him and then slowly swaying towards wanting to lynch him, you can no longer fathom how someone else might still have a town read on him? You had a town read, though yours changed, I had a town read, though mine did not. Why was that so hard to fathom? Keep in mind I understand how you derived your scum read, I just don't see where your confusion comes from about my town read.
Because having been called out on his weirdness, he just got trollier, more destructive, and more unhelpful as time went on.
His behaviour just deteriorated to the point where "he's done stuff like this before" stops flying.
After a point I cannot fathom a town motivation for how he continued to behave
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ).
The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions.
The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy.
On April 25 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 21:27 Ace wrote:
bluelightz: There is a problem with saying the Zentor lynch is moving too easily - yesterday it barely moved at all. If you're going to assume Zentor is innocent based on the wagon moving too fast, then what about yesterday when it stalled?
The case on Zentor is solid enough that it isn't unreasonable to expect his lynch to actually MOVE today. The problem is that from past experiences with Zentor I feel that he is town, and we will mislych today because he doesnt bother to defend himself, AGAIN. Comparing to: SoAF Mafia, where he was all trololol day 2 till his claim and reads.
The funny thing is bluelightz was pretty much bang on with Zentor. He was actually all trololol up until his Day 2 reads.
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EPT
