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I concede that Hiro's play on the last day cycle was bad. But to say that case is anything damning is false as well.
To say hiro had not taken a firm stance is only partially true. He argued to save me on two separate occasions fairly adamantly, even if it meant he was losing his teammate. I don't know how closely you read the game VE but Hiro did take a firm stance day 2 voting and encouraging others to vote for solohan.
Omnom should have looked scummy to everyone. He argued senselessly (to a fault of my own as well) and clogged up the thread with a ton of horseshit over me (a flipped claimed blue). Him saying this should was more conversational then scummy.
Its super ironic that you point to a case hinging on "he was filmsy" when strongandbig was just as filmsy (if not worse IMO).
To say he did no scum hunting is hysterical because noone except me and KB did any actual scum hunting.
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Also I was impressed by FourFace's play in this game. There was a lot of method under the madness. That scum kill made sense at least.
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On April 11 2012 10:41 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:32 Kohbee wrote:
The fact that he knew that killing muffins would paint him town is your answer to why his argument is not logically sound at all. It is meaningless WIFOM But painting himself town after killing omnomMuffins is much harder to do than simply offing strongandbig and watching the other two accuse each other (I guarantee you that would have happened). That's my whole point. It's much easier in the position of scum!marvellosity to simply kill strongandbig than to even begin to consider a WIFOM case which might or might not work depending on strongandbig's though process.But I don't want to waste time here. As another wise man once said: Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 11:09/March 22 2012 09:11 Grackaroni wrote:
We're done here. (I apologise in advance for the bad and obscure reference, but I had to)
So if hiro had killed strongandbig, couldn't he have used the exact same argument of "IM NOT AN IDIOT THAT WOULD SHOOT STRONGANDBIG". Just because it worked this time doesn't make it a good or logical practice.
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I think this is the first time I hear anyone positively impressed by FourFace's play =P
My initial thought upon seeing the kill of Night 2 in the daypost was "oh thank God they shot FourFace out of all the townies in this game". I can't tell you how hard it is to concentrate on anything productive at town if you are constantly facing that disruptive voice you can't possibly predict. It's hard to estimate how much town productivity was shot down the drain that day simply because of that fact.
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On April 11 2012 10:52 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:41 KharadBanar wrote:On April 11 2012 10:32 Kohbee wrote:
The fact that he knew that killing muffins would paint him town is your answer to why his argument is not logically sound at all. It is meaningless WIFOM But painting himself town after killing omnomMuffins is much harder to do than simply offing strongandbig and watching the other two accuse each other (I guarantee you that would have happened). That's my whole point. It's much easier in the position of scum!marvellosity to simply kill strongandbig than to even begin to consider a WIFOM case which might or might not work depending on strongandbig's though process.But I don't want to waste time here. As another wise man once said: On March 17 2012 11:09/March 22 2012 09:11 Grackaroni wrote:
We're done here. (I apologise in advance for the bad and obscure reference, but I had to) So if hiro had killed strongandbig, couldn't he have used the exact same argument of "IM NOT AN IDIOT THAT WOULD SHOOT STRONGANDBIG". Just because it worked this time doesn't make it a good or logical practice.
I think at that point omnomMuffins would have likely not believed him anyway. HiroPro was the player faced with the worst choice of the three possible scum candidates at endgame. marvellosity could have killed off strongandbig and gotten away with it no problem, and strongandbig would have had the game won almost no matter what because everyone had him confirmed as town in their book.
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On April 11 2012 10:48 Kohbee wrote:
I concede that Hiro's play on the last day cycle was bad. But to say that case is anything damning is false as well.
To say hiro had not taken a firm stance is only partially true. He argued to save me on two separate occasions fairly adamantly, even if it meant he was losing his teammate. I don't know how closely you read the game VE but Hiro did take a firm stance day 2 voting and encouraging others to vote for solohan.
Omnom should have looked scummy to everyone. He argued senselessly (to a fault of my own as well) and clogged up the thread with a ton of horseshit over me (a flipped claimed blue). Him saying this should was more conversational then scummy.
Its super ironic that you point to a case hinging on "he was filmsy" when strongandbig was just as filmsy (if not worse IMO).
To say he did no scum hunting is hysterical because noone except me and KB did any actual scum hunting.
What's your point here? The case was strong enough to put Hiro on the back foot, and if it weren't for the impending scum-flip, Hiro could have really slipped up in defending himself against it. Verily, almost his entire defense consisted of 1) sidestepping the actual accusations and 2) WIFOM...when what you're accusing marvel of is "lucking into a WIFOM victory" or something stupid.
Just take the victory bro - you'll get your chance to shine. 
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 11 2012 10:38 jaj22 wrote:
Following the nightkill reasoning was acceptable there IMO. Consider that if Marvellosity is scum, he's actually planned to make himself the obvious target and then win the game with nightkill reasoning. You can yell WIFOM all you like, but that's just insanity. Marvellosity didn't show any signs of insanity.
KB, Kohbee simply does not understand the reasoning above. The fact that you, the rest of town, and every other contributor in this thread understands it will not help him, I fear.
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On April 11 2012 11:04 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:38 jaj22 wrote:
Following the nightkill reasoning was acceptable there IMO. Consider that if Marvellosity is scum, he's actually planned to make himself the obvious target and then win the game with nightkill reasoning. You can yell WIFOM all you like, but that's just insanity. Marvellosity didn't show any signs of insanity.
KB, Kohbee simply does not understand the reasoning above. The fact that you, the rest of town, and every other contributor in this thread understands it will not help him, I fear.
OK I'm stopping it. If an explanation from VisceraEyes himself doesn't do the trick I don't know if I can do any better 
Oh and by the way, hello VisceraEyes! I'm glad that veterans are taking the time to look at our newbie game and coach a little bit :D
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Any time.
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On April 11 2012 11:03 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:48 Kohbee wrote:
I concede that Hiro's play on the last day cycle was bad. But to say that case is anything damning is false as well.
To say hiro had not taken a firm stance is only partially true. He argued to save me on two separate occasions fairly adamantly, even if it meant he was losing his teammate. I don't know how closely you read the game VE but Hiro did take a firm stance day 2 voting and encouraging others to vote for solohan.
Omnom should have looked scummy to everyone. He argued senselessly (to a fault of my own as well) and clogged up the thread with a ton of horseshit over me (a flipped claimed blue). Him saying this should was more conversational then scummy.
Its super ironic that you point to a case hinging on "he was filmsy" when strongandbig was just as filmsy (if not worse IMO).
To say he did no scum hunting is hysterical because noone except me and KB did any actual scum hunting. What's your point here? The case was strong enough to put Hiro on the back foot, and if it weren't for the impending scum-flip, Hiro could have really slipped up in defending himself against it. Verily, almost his entire defense consisted of 1) sidestepping the actual accusations and 2) WIFOM...when what you're accusing marvel of is "lucking into a WIFOM victory" or something stupid. Just take the victory bro - you'll get your chance to shine.
why are you trying to sweep this under the rug.
I don't care about getting my chance to shine, this is a discussion on improvement. As I said before Hiropro played a pretty terrible last day, but as you can see in about 2 minutes I took apart the only "case" that was presented against him.
All you are doing is encouraging the use of night kills as argument to figure out who is scum or convince others that someone is scum. I would hope that you as a vet would know better. Let alone the situation being pretty unique (being 2 town 1 scum left almost never happens). In reality Marvel's argument would almost never work in any other situation and IMO still shouldn't have convinced anyone.
In case you haven't noticed, I am NOT trying to argue that marvel was wrong to come to this conclusion. I am arguing that he is wrong for using this as his argument to others to see his way.
Marvel, I see the logic you used to figure out Hiropro was scum. This is fine, however it only works because you know/knew that you were town. To others, your argument should be less about you and more about Hiropro and why he is scum.
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Now I see what you're saying.
You're taking issue with the specific instance of using WIFOM around the NK's to cement the lynch on the last day.
While you call it WIFOM to speculate about the night-kills, I call it "looking at all the possible reasons something can happen and picking the most likely"...and because he's town, he chose the one that was most likely to him. While it's true that no one else in town knows marvel's alignment, what marvel says about the NKs is still information that town can use to narrow down possible suspects.
I agree that it was a close last day, and could have gone either way based on the argumentation employed, but I don't think it was "poor play" on marvel's part, it was simply all he could think of given the circumstances. One of the things marvel wanted my help with after the game ended was "This was Hiro's response to my case...I didn't know how to respond...what should I have done?" Because he didn't know how to provocatively argue his own case, he chose a different avenue of persuasion that ended up winning the game. Was it the best way? Nah, you're right about that...but I'd be lying if I said I thought it was anything but "doing what must be done to win"...which is what this game is about, on both sides.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Should also be noted of course that I was proved right about Hiro...
On April 11 2012 11:22 Kohbee wrote:
Marvel, I see the logic you used to figure out Hiropro was scum. This is fine, however it only works because you know/knew that you were town. To others, your argument should be less about you and more about Hiropro and why he is scum.
Yes, but you should for example re-read KB's logic in obsQT, or any other logic. YES, the argument should be about why Hiro is scum.
My logic at the end wasn't even figuring out Hiro was scum, not at all. It was just to establish I could NOT be scum, because, as many others have pointed out, that would have been an insane/dumb play on my part.
It was indeed WIFOM, but it was WIFOM with irrefutable logic unless you accept I am insane, as jaj wrote.
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I feel so bad about joining this game now, gmarsh linked me to it and I thought, oh yeah I should have enough time for a small 9 man before IPL.
Getting consistent Internet access there sucked, and I feel bad about not being able to make my last post on time. Well it is newbie mafia and I feel like I was the only real newbie because I kept trying to use the same tactics that are done in person for the forum.
Out of curiosity how often do town win these?
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To say this is only about marvel is also untrue. In my first (or second im lazy) postgame post I asked for the reasoning behind Strongandbig's vote on hiropro (which is where my comment about town lucking into victory stems from). If you go back i still think that me and KB's cases from days ago against Marvel were stronger than anything Marvel said about Hiropro.
Ps. I am taking issue with using WIFOM around NK's as the argument for any lynch. Its part of the reason I got mislynched too in this game.
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On April 11 2012 11:33 marvellosity wrote:
Should also be noted of course that I was proved right about Hiro...
the irony here is soooooo awesome
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:40 Kohbee wrote:
To say this is only about marvel is also untrue. In my first (or second im lazy) postgame post I asked for the reasoning behind Strongandbig's vote on hiropro (which is where my comment about town lucking into victory stems from). If you go back i still think that me and KB's cases from days ago against Marvel were stronger than anything Marvel said about Hiropro.
Ps. I am taking issue with using WIFOM around NK's as the argument for any lynch. Its part of the reason I got mislynched too in this game.
That's because in your case the WIFOM could lead to any number of reasonable explanations.
In this case, there was no reasonable explanation for scum marv killing omnom. This is the difference.
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The more you guys expect town, scum, blues, 3rd parties etc to act as you would, the more you will continually be disappointed in your results.
I don't think you understand that you saying its irrefutable logic should prove my point exactly. Because you can think this, this makes it instantly not insane, and actually quite cunning, to pull something like this as scum. You are not seeing yourself from an outsiders prospective who do not know you are town.
All I am saying is that IMO you needed to add a lot more than just I WOULD BE STUPID TO DO THIS, to the thread to have ensured victory. I understand that you did what you thought was necessary to win the game, but I don't think this is the right way to go about your reads, ESPECIALLY in lylo
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I mean I didn't feel bad being killed because yesterday was another travel day, I just wish I could have gotten a computer to post my case first. The only explanation I can figure out for killing me is being considerate since IPL was ending. I was extremely erratic with posting this week (I have learned not to play during travel weeks), and chances are I probably wouldn't have been able to make a post before the deadline for tonights vote anyway which would have been a mod kill. So hiro was clearly just being very considerate towards me with that.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:47 Kohbee wrote:
The more you guys expect town, scum, blues, 3rd parties etc to act as you would, the more you will continually be disappointed in your results.
I don't think you understand that you saying its irrefutable logic should prove my point exactly. Because you can think this, this makes it instantly not insane, and actually quite cunning, to pull something like this as scum. You are not seeing yourself from an outsiders prospective who do not know you are town.
All I am saying is that IMO you needed to add a lot more than just I WOULD BE STUPID TO DO THIS, to the thread to have ensured victory. I understand that you did what you thought was necessary to win the game, but I don't think this is the right way to go about your reads, ESPECIALLY in lylo
You are not grasping that I had the option to kill strongandbig for an easy mafia victory.
I pointed out myself that I was resorting to a desperate WIFOM case instead of ensuring my own victory by killing strongandbig. This would not be a cunning mafia play, it would be stupid, because I could have ensured my own victory.
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The argument isn't "mafia wouldn't do this" the argument was "given my play, do you think the person who's played this game so far would make this move?"
Everything is WIFOM if you break it down far enough, as DocH has said before. Obviously you can't expect players to act "as they should" all the time, but you can make educated guesses as to how they "would" act given the information you have.
Which is, after all, the essence of Mafia.
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EPT
