EPTThe Sum of All Fears Mafia - Page 11
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johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
On March 27 2012 16:03 Sinensis wrote: So what changed? Or do you not like being in the same voting boat as johnny? You defended him earlier. so i was all like "BH's tunneling on nemesis is not very good, I don't like it". then I saw this and was like j.wup busting out the logic woot, my earlier suspicion on mr. wup was wrong! BH is being wildly scummy! But then BH reacted alright to ma prezzure, so then I re-read the post mr. wup and realized it was actually not good at all and I was a dumdum to think it was good so then I unvoted. AKA Nemesis case bad. J.wup case good. VE you're being awfully chummy with mr. wup. it's one thing to say "don't overract to pressure", or to be generally friendly, but it sounds like ur presuming he's town. you think BH's case is god awful, and more importantly, wrong? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Well, it seems that after a great deal of prodding, and after I explicitly called him out after he voted me, JW has finally posted a... "case" on me. I use that word with the greatest hesitance, as one might refer to a popgun as a "firearm" or to a typewriter as a "word processor" since I must admit, short of a few particular gems by Bluelightz, I have never quite seen a case this ill-founded. Let us then proceed into the darkness. I will explain in grievous detail exactly how and why this fellow is wrong. To begin, we have all seen the great reluctance with which JW has committed to any sort of statement on anything of importance this game, and the great lengths I had to go to, even after he voted me, to get him to post a case. Imagine, for a moment, you're a town player in JW's position; Blzinghand is bothering you, and hey, maybe he's scum. What would you do? Well, maybe you'd do some research on Blzinghand's previous games. Maybe you'd take a look at his filter this game. Whatever you'd do, you'd probably try to refine your read if possible. If you don't have enough information, you might ask him some questions. If you have a fair amount of information and believe he is scum, you might make a case to pressure him. And if you're very sure of yourself, or you really want to ramp up the pressure, you will append a vote to your case. The reason you do this is to attempt to lynch him, or to bluff to attempt to lynch him. That is the purpose of the vote. Sounds reasonable enough. Now, JW did not quite do this. He voted me, THEN wrote a case AFTERWARDS. I find this unbelievably suspicious and scummy. "Now wait," you may say, "perhaps he is like you! I remember you made a pretty flimsy case with an initial vote, then filled it out with a more extensive case when you had more information. Do you think JW was perhaps doing the same thing?" That's a fair question. Let's examine what he did here: On March 27 2012 15:44 johnnywup wrote: just because i don't have as many posts doesn't mean I'm scum, blazing. My posts are more thought out. Your posts are yelling at anyone who directs a post at you. I don't find that particularly town-like. ##vote Blazinghand This actually... doesn't look so bad. It looks like Blzinghand made some shitty post trying to get JW lynched for semi-lurking. Blzinghand is attacking everyone who directs a post at him-- an un-townlike action. If that's really the case, then it would be difficult indeed for JW to actually formulate a case against me! This looks like a normal pressure vote to try to force a regular confrontation, rather than a cornered scum trying to silence an aggressive townie. So, what was he responding to? What half-assed, short, un-analyzable post merited a vote with such a terse explanation? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322686¤tpage=10#191 + Show Spoiler + On March 27 2012 15:34 Blazinghand wrote: I daresay my logic is largely non-ridiculous. It may appear ridiculous to you, but god does not play dice with the universe. Humor me a moment, and let me seduce you with my lascivious arguments. A) Johnnywup's initial "pressure" on me was actually rather half-assed and non-comittal. I found his statement that "scum wouldn't play this bad" (or equivalent) to be an anti-town statement. B) I call him out in a typically aggressive fashion. He responds in this way: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322686¤tpage=9#171 This is generally a bad post. I really don't like this particular section: I think any marginally experienced player, or even someone who sits down and thinks about how mafia works should realize that bad logic being posted in the thread DOES hurt the town. as a town player, you want to avoid doing this. As a scum player, you are happy when you see this. bad logic hurts the town. it is anti town, then. And other than these two posts, he has had a generally underwhelming filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322686&user=99700 "But, blazinghand, most of JW's stuff wasn't even there during your initial accusation! what was the deal there?" Admittedly, my first post in which I voted him was grasping slightly at straws. this town is silent and there was basically no analysis happening. I needed to get things rolling. His utterly catastrophic responses to me after voting him have made me realize that this guy is scum, and deserves to be lynched. Anybody who examines his filter can look and see that there is something amiss. this is now how a town player would play. I stand by my vote, for new reasons that are stronger than the ones for which it was initially made. The evidence is there. all you need to do is open your eyes. ...oh. Hm. That looks like a pretty long, well-thought out argument. That looks like something JW could have written a case from, if I really had no ground to stand on. In fact... it's kind of surprising that JW didn't respond to my allegations in the post in which he votes me. In fact, he even references it when he claims he's not lurking in his voting post. How could he have possibility missed it? The answer, of course, is obvious. JW did not miss my post. He decided that the adequate response to a detailed case against him was a brief, empty paragraph and a vote. In fact, this is actually a textbook case of an OMGUS. I hate referencing OMGUS, because it is so often misused-- the fact of the matter is, there are plenty of times you may want to make a case against someone who is pressuring you or being aggressive. It happens all the time, and it isn't OMGUS. OMGUS is about the sort of content-free, reflexive defense a scum will bring to bear in a panic when he realizes he's cornered. It's about this situation, here. It's about JW. After I increase the pressure, he finally goes back to my post and makes an analysis. Something that, in fact, is what he would have done BEFORE making his vote that references the post if he were indeed town-aligned. The very case itself is a farce, but I must of course address it here, since it represents a continued development of JW's OMGUS. Let's take a look: + Show Spoiler + On March 27 2012 16:01 johnnywup wrote: I never tried to start a wagon on you. I pointed out that your posts are stupid. You said "look at his filter, you can see he's scum!". That's general. I didn't know if you meant content or size, or what. This is a classic misrepresentation of my case. If you remember back to my post, which he oddly enough doesn't quote (despite quoting later sections of it below), I say this: " And other than these two posts, he has had a generally underwhelming filter:" That is highly different than "look at his filter, you can see he's scum!"-- the sentence is specifically talking about content. I eviscerate his two posts with content, then note that his filter is underwhelming. To any reasonable person, this is me saying "JW hasn't said anything of value outside of these two posts". Hope that clears it up for everyone. On March 27 2012 16:01 johnnywup wrote: bold 1: so people can't be bad? bold 2: You're playing bad. You're calling out people for absolutely 0 reason. Bad arguments=scum right? Look in the mirror, buddy. bold 3: i never defended you. I pointed out your posts were bad and I neither attacked your nor defended you at that point. I just pointed things out. But you got defensive and started attacking me. I don't understand your logic here. Theses three areas are blatant misrepresentations by JW. The first statement I make is that "excluding someone from being scum just because they're bad is not reasonable". JW 's question 1 is retarded. 2: reasonably, JW should recognize that my arguments are bad and should have responded to them in his initial vote post, but somehow had to wait until now to do so. 3: JW did in fact defend me by stating I was probably not scum despite "bad" posts. This sort of hedging is typical tracks being laid down by a scum player so that he can go back later and be proven right. On March 27 2012 16:01 johnnywup wrote: for what reason would i be scum rather than a bad townie? just because? bold 1: me thinking you're bad makes me anti town? And I didn't intend to commit, I merely pointed out why what you said is stupid, like I've said. bold 2: please, please tell me blazing, how would a town player play? How should I play mafia, tell me! I don't understand the needless attacking of me. Please help me understand why I'm scum, blazing. I really do want to know. 1) another misrepresentation. I think that him being non-comittal is typical scum play. 2) Rhetorical questions. no value here. Overall, you can see that JW's "case" was A) made long after the fact of his vote, and only after i pressured him to produce it, a typical scum move with a typical OMGUS B) is generally flimsy and is based on blatant misrepresentation of my arguments. As a result, I am not convinced at all of his innocence, and am in fact more and more convinced that he is panicking scum. Thank you for your time. Vote JW for D1 lynch! | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:44 johnnywup wrote: just because i don't have as many posts doesn't mean I'm scum, blazing. My posts are more thought out. Your posts are yelling at anyone who directs a post at you. I don't find that particularly town-like. ##vote Blazinghand oh also this isn't a good enough reason to vote someone. feels like someone trying to push along a train. BH didn't yell at me despite me openly discrediting him, logic fails. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
@JW: Come at me bro + Show Spoiler [Jw's "case" on blazi…] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/htv4v.gif) | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
On March 27 2012 16:27 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, respond...but you're getting emotional about it which is not the answer. Yes, he's using bad logic. So was I last game remember? Remember what I flipped? There's still a lot of time in the day. If BH's vote is still on you for the reasons he's giving, I'll gladly lynch his ass with you. Responding emotionally to his pressure only makes you seem more suspicious. I mean, obviously if you're scum I'm helping you right now, but you're using fine logic and I don't want to see you talk your way to a lynch. i glazed over this part. you didn't presume he's scum. please don't yell at me T_T in other news, blzinghand for prez?? | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
C_C (in response to current stuffs) froggynoddy cccalf going to wrap up a post in TL LII then sleep. will check out dem cases tomorrow and make my vote. Dear Hosts, could you grant your poor, destitute players a voting thread? | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
u get the idea, i hope | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Jackal wrote: Hi guys. Allow me to preface this with the following caveats: 1. I don't care if you like me. 2. I don't care if you think I'm arrogant, belligerent, ignorant, or any other kind of 'ent/ant 3. I'm not here to be your friend. 4. If I hurt your precious feelings you need to start spending more time in the real world. 5. I'm here to kill scum 6. I will not coddle you in the process. Now that we have that out of the way I'm going to speak my mind. 75% of you suck. That is a simple truth. There is no such thing as a "useless townie". That line of thinking stops right here. RIGHT NOW. You all get that? I hope you got that. If you wish to push it any more you are scum. The only useless townies are inactives that will be modkilled. If an individual is posting things you don't agree with, or you think are off the mark, or you think are scummy by all means call them out on it. But stop analyzing people you think are useless townies. If they are town they are not useless. You dumbshits are going to "useless" townie us right into oblivion.Stop fucking doing it. The only thing you are doing is giving scum a place to hide. The only useless townies are the ones calling others useless townies. Fucking stop it. Morons. Do not base your analysis on people that piss you off. We just lost the goddamned batman because some fucking moron had a fucking hardon at BC. I understand that this game creates emotional responses from people. You dumbshits have to understand that sometimes people are looking for emotional responses. Scum love to stir the pot. If I call you stupid look at the reason why I called you stupid. Odds are if you step back you will realize that yes what you said was stupid. Stupidity does not make people scummy. Calling a persons post stupid does not make that person scummy. It happens get the fuck over it. Scummy behavior lies in wanting to kill people for stupid shallow reasons. Scum do not have to pressure people. Us townies do that all by ourselves. Scum simply look for the opportunity to go along for the ride. Stop driving the fucking bus. If you see a post that seems to push a scum agenda bring it to our attention Stop trying to get people lynched because you think they are stupid. Odds are if a person appears stupid it's because they are stupid. Not because they are scum. So please stop trying to massage your fucking collective egos. Actually everybody right now take your ego and fold it up into a little square and wipe your ass with it. Then flush it. You'll know where to find it when the game is over. I am in a mason circle that did include BC. This circle is not of my doing. As far as I know atm nobody in it is the benefactor that included all of us. BC had the best analysis of this game to this point. "General opinion is people are fucktards." I could not have said it better. Bum can confirm this. He's in the circle with me. I will not out the others. If they wish to claim it's on them. Don't ask me to. We need to use Bum as an asset. A lot of you are going to call this differently. As of right now I believe towns best interest lies in using Bum until the time comes where he has to play for his win condition. When that moment arrives I have no problem with kicking him to the curb. I probably have another million things to add but I don't remember wtf they are. Bottom line is - Town,Stop being fucking morons. Start looking for scum instead of people that piss you off or you deem as useless. Fucking morons. Yours truly, Jackal58 It changed the way I viewed this game, and it made me realize something very important: there's no such thing as a useless townie. Someone actively bad at the game, who disagrees with obvious townies and helps scum push their objectives, even they help town by BEING ALIVE. Scum's win-condition is based on NUMBERS. That's why they say the lynch is town's greatest weapon: because scum can't stop the lynch by any means. If we start feeding "useless townies" to the lynch, then that reduces town's number by one, putting scum one step closer to victory. In short, I don't know yet if johnnywup is scum, but he's certainly not scummy enough to lynch yet. DEFINITELY not for the reasons Blazinghand has stated. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Go look at my case on C_C. I realize you're trying to ignore me because you disagree with my tactics, but have a little faith. Go take a look. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
An example of [why lynching 'useless townies' is bad] is in Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia VII; just look up the filters of myself, and gumshoe. Gumshoe's early posts are quite terrible, and I openly state that I think he is mafia. However, I soon realized that he is just newbie town (more on this later), and spend a decent amount of time defending him from all sorts of pressure. This became fruitful, because later on gumshoe became a more constructive poster and contributed to a pro-town atmosphere. A lot of people will say things like "i think this guy is scum, and well, if he isn't he's useless townie and should die". This is a POOR mode of thinking; you always want to be fairly confident that someone is scum. My new mantra in Mafia is "Bad does not = scum". Trust me, I fully understand what you are presenting here. However, atm I don't see mr. wup as a useless townie, I see him as someone who is fairly scummy. You'll never see me vote someone for being "useless", but you will see me vote for people I think are scummy. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 27 2012 14:25 Cyber_Cheese wrote: 'If he's town' is good for setting up a safe escape when a mafia lead lynch goes badly, but townies shouldn't need an escape. This is a slippery slope that scum love. Lets try to lynch scum, and settle for nothing less k? Did you literally not read the sentence that followed that one? Here let me include the entire quote for you, since through some incredible feat of mental trickery you missed it: On March 27 2012 13:04 Blazinghand wrote: Maybe he's just a town player who didn't think things through carefully and worded his posts ambiguously (in an attack that is fundamentally about wording posts). But the fact of the matter is, he did somehow wake up to respond to my posts. He will doubtlessly claim that he hadn't yet gone to bed... but bear in mind that his series of actions is distinctly something a scum player WOULD do. Oh hey, what's that? Blzinghand was just introducing that as a counterpoint so he could IMMEDIATELY shoot it down? he wasn't hedging, but actually being an aggressive manly man with enormous muscles, and C_C is either a knave or a fool? Hey, how about that. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6DdDc.gif) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 27 2012 07:41 Cyber_Cheese wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/P7KtZ.jpg) Alright boys, lets do this. Something about this seems suss. Compensating for some sort of guilt perhaps? I concur with VE that this is a troubling post. I do not like that C_C soft-claimed his nationality. As a town player this is either a huge mistake or some kind of shitty gambit. As a scum player, this is... I don't even know what this is. I eagerly anticipate C_C's reasoning for this post. | ||
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johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
thank you for that. BH was just pissing me off. In reality I don't really have any evidence that shows him to be scummy. ##unvote BlazingHand I don't know how to give a strong argument and I know that. It's a weak suit of mine. I'll work on that but I'm not scum because of it. And I don't know why you keep saying "JW is so scummy! lynch lynch lynch!!!" and thats the essence of what you're saying.. And I don't have to give you a long response to a long post. Your long post doesn't say much, really. So neither does my response have to. (Btw I was voting because of things I already said, not just things i said in the post that I voted in) ET is defending BH , noted. | ||
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johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
 )So yeah dude, go read the beginning of C9++. I had similar reservations. Luckily, I had the wisdom to admit that I might be wrong and we nailed Jackal as scum D1. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
I have an excel sheet. Everyone is on a scale of 1-5, town-scum. Everyone starts at 3. After the first few pages, I put you at a 4. After your post on BH, I put you to a 3. After the last 2 pages, I put you back to 4. In thread it looks like a 180 I spose, but I put people's alignments on a sliding scale. oh and if it offends you that I'm calling you mr. wup, I'll stop. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On March 27 2012 16:59 Blazinghand wrote: Other than C_C's half-assed half-quote of me, he hasn't posted anything of any substance except: I concur with VE that this is a troubling post. I do not like that C_C soft-claimed his nationality. As a town player this is either a huge mistake or some kind of shitty gambit. As a scum player, this is... I don't even know what this is. I eagerly anticipate C_C's reasoning for this post. I mean, he could be fishing for town players to hint at their nationality. He could be trying to buy insta-cred with anyone who actually is SU...there are any number of possible scum motivations for doing this and very few town motivations. Hence my vote. If you're bored with C_C, perhaps you could be convinced to look over one gonzaw? Something feels off about that guy too, I'm looking over him myself. | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
Blazinghand ---> Catapaulted to very sure is townie from his recent posting(Active, Pressuring people, etc) and being funny and awesome in starcraft ^_^ Some random summaries MrZentor --> Has been following Discussion, has not provided any reads, I'd love some reads from him. gonzaw --> Has followed discussion, setup speculation, I'd love some reads and more content from him . ET --> Townie, has followed discussion pressed people to post, preety townie C_C ---> Needs to step up, he has nothing of substance, has not taken a stance on anything yet, I want reads, willing to lynch depending on what he post's next. | ||
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