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C9++ Mini Mafia - Page 58

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
March 24 2012 08:31 GMT
#1141
Palmar really is mr Everyone'sRetardedButMe

Laya is more of a "you don't say" kind of sarcasm guy imo. Sure he has those "everyone is retarded" moments as well but those are not the funny moments!
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
March 24 2012 08:38 GMT
#1142
fixed you whinywhores
Dirkzor
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Denmark1944 Posts
March 24 2012 12:03 GMT
#1143
Thx for the analysis WBG!

Why did I push xsksc? Because he was one of the six guys left on my list. It was kinda tunnelling. My "read" wasn't really heartfelt. I just hadn't found anyone I found really scummy yet and I was sure that scum were on my list, so i just picked one guy and called him scum. Thats also why i could vote jackal without really thinking about it.
I did not have the time I usually have to read the thread. I usually have 3 hours at work to just read the thread and filters and then post longer cases when I'm home. But weird workdays and social shit meant I had little time to the thread.

I also think I relaxed more because sandro called me confirmed town :D

I though about shooting sloosh N1 just because he seemed he would get lynched anyway. I decided against it because even if he was scum I wanted to see who would vote him and how the defence would be. I've been vig 2 times (and 1 time suicide bomber) and I always wait with my shot. I see no reason to shoot to early. If you're wrong and shoot a townie the best outcome is you confirm yourself. If you are right and shoot scum you take info away from the thread.

All in all I think my scum reads were off but my deductive skills were on point.
"HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU ON TOP AGAIN???? HOW DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS????" -Julmust (also, thats what she said)
layabout
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom2600 Posts
March 24 2012 13:07 GMT
#1144
I never said that town were oblivious
I said that they were obvious, as in "obviously town" to anybody reading.

I didn't know what to say because i felt that most players looked town, I knew they were town and i expected the majority of others to see them as town. I was not sitting back because i felt like town weren't doing enough, i sat back because of (personal reasons) and an extended brain fart.

I chose the actions on night one, because when i got to my computer nobody else was there to talk to and nobody had sent any in. I shot jcarl because he was next to confirmed town and in the qt prob wrote that he thought slOosh was a blue.

I think bluelightz decided the n2 actions and RB'd tobon because Prob thought he was a medic.
Be the Best You Can Be ! Play MAFIA II http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/ II Dragonsound Best Band
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
March 24 2012 13:13 GMT
#1145
On March 24 2012 17:23 wherebugsgo wrote:

Mr. IcangetmodkilledafterIdie jcarlsoniv


I shall wear this badge with honor.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
johnnywup
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3858 Posts
March 24 2012 16:03 GMT
#1146
ok enough with what i did well, what could I do to improve in future games? i understand its difficult to judge in games such as these
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 16:16:55
March 24 2012 16:14 GMT
#1147
On March 24 2012 22:07 layabout wrote:
I never said that town were oblivious
I said that they were obvious, as in "obviously town" to anybody reading.

I didn't know what to say because i felt that most players looked town, I knew they were town and i expected the majority of others to see them as town. I was not sitting back because i felt like town weren't doing enough, i sat back because of (personal reasons) and an extended brain fart.

I chose the actions on night one, because when i got to my computer nobody else was there to talk to and nobody had sent any in. I shot jcarl because he was next to confirmed town and in the qt prob wrote that he thought slOosh was a blue.

I think bluelightz decided the n2 actions and RB'd tobon because Prob thought he was a medic.


I'll dig up skype (I must be illiterate) but even in that case, you have avenues.

By killing jcarl, you confirm sandro and basically cement all his reads. At that point unless you sheep him (based on how day 1 went) you're fucked. Thus you have to convince sandro to kill townies, and it's only a feasible choice to shoot jcarl if sandro is horribly wrong about one or more of you. i.e. had you guys fakeclaimed off the jackal death and become "confirmed" (I can 100% guarantee that they would never think a scum claim+counterclaim of cop would ever in a million years happen) then killing jcarl might have been okay.

However, that's still not optimal to simply shooting VE and leaving jcarl+sandro alive. Why? Because if you kill a scum day 1 so easily from sandro just saying "this guy is scum" and then day 2 they kill a townie, you can actually bullshit and shed doubt on sandro and jcarl. You can implant the idea that sandro+jcarl were mafia scumbuddies without ever explicitly even saying it.

That possibility is shot to pieces as soon as a mason flips. The mafia team needs to realize that from a town perspective, no one is confirmed without flips. They can be "confirmed" but that's still as good as nothing (albeit plenty of noobs will be convinced anyway). Townies have a tendency to trust results over anything else. Thus, if you kill a scum day 1 and then townies 2 days in a row, chances are they'll no longer believe that one hero from day 1 is actually town.

The problem of course was that none of you had the thread presence nor the foresight to know what to do. I know hindsight is 20/20 and everything, but when I told you guys not to give up I could tell already you had lost (after one lynch, nonetheless) because psychologically if you've given up you out yourself in the thread. You can't keep up a charade if you yourself don't believe in it.

slOosh
Profile Joined October 2009
3291 Posts
March 24 2012 16:19 GMT
#1148
On March 25 2012 01:14 wherebugsgo wrote:
had you guys fakeclaimed off the jackal death and become "confirmed" (I can 100% guarantee that they would never think a scum claim+counterclaim of cop would ever in a million years happen) then killing jcarl might have been okay.


What should the counterclaim cop do after the scum cop flips? Play town with wrong reads?
Since it is possible in a c9++ setting for multiple cops, how can you say that it makes sense that a (town) cop would insta-counterclaim?
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 16:31:54
March 24 2012 16:31 GMT
#1149
Basically on day 1 you had a mason pair claim, which is an incredibly powerful pair of town roles. If there were two full-blown cops, the game would essentially be broken. (in fact, it's not allowed in my setup creator, for the record. I removed the possibility of things like mason+mason cop+cop because that's just stupid)

It's true that the players don't know that. However, when the lynch is secured and someone claims cop, they're far less likely to be a cop in a 13 player setup (with two masons who have already claimed) after someone counterclaims them. The counterclaim comes to ensure the lynch goes through and people don't back off: mafia wouldn't really want to counterclaim just to kill a cop because a 1 for 1 trade is highly in the favor of town.

It's one of those plays that people would go "mafia would never do that, it's too ballsy" and they'd be correct, most TL mafia players would never even consider that. Then someone like Ace comes along and destroys that notion.

Indeed, the icing on the cake is that after the GF claims cop, if there's actually a town cop there's no doubt he'll claim as well, and at that point he's just free roleblock material. In addition, it helps lay doubt on the mason pair claim because it makes it less likely from a balance perspective that masons exist (it would be almost too powerful) and players with a role (e.g. VE) would be susceptible to doubting the claims based on the number of possible blues.

Lastly, you don't need correct reads to play the role of town cop. If you claim d1 you can simply claim roleblock every day after (and your team can mask the roleblock by simply roleblocking the kill target whenever necessary)
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
March 24 2012 16:40 GMT
#1150
One thing that helped me that I should probably elaborate on is that being "correct" in a game of mafia ultimately matters less than your actual appearance. This is precisely why I called playing as scum a game of appearances.

I think a lot of scum players (myself included, to an extent) have the false notion that being wrong on a lynch is inherently bad and if you're wrong you'll be caught easily. I suppose you receive more attention if you've been lynching townies, but I don't think that it's necessarily true. Even townies can be wrong once, twice, or even three times. What ultimately matters are not actually the results necessarily but the manner and appearances that go into those results. Look at almost any game you want in which a townie died day 1 and you'll see plenty of people who were on the lynch but were never suspected (and for good reason.) once you can figure out why that's so, you can play scum without the fear of being wrong.
SamuelLJackson
Profile Joined December 2011
223 Posts
March 24 2012 18:39 GMT
#1151
I wish I could do that lol. Even when I'm town I'm afraid of being wrong =/
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
March 24 2012 21:01 GMT
#1152
Well obviously as town you need to be afraid of being wrong, but even as town you won't be lynched just because you're wrong. There will be other reasons.
johnnywup
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3858 Posts
March 24 2012 21:21 GMT
#1153
thanks for being a great host, wbg! and you for being a great co-host, toad! :D
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
March 25 2012 00:58 GMT
#1154
On March 25 2012 01:14 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 22:07 layabout wrote:
I never said that town were oblivious
I said that they were obvious, as in "obviously town" to anybody reading.

I didn't know what to say because i felt that most players looked town, I knew they were town and i expected the majority of others to see them as town. I was not sitting back because i felt like town weren't doing enough, i sat back because of (personal reasons) and an extended brain fart.

I chose the actions on night one, because when i got to my computer nobody else was there to talk to and nobody had sent any in. I shot jcarl because he was next to confirmed town and in the qt prob wrote that he thought slOosh was a blue.

I think bluelightz decided the n2 actions and RB'd tobon because Prob thought he was a medic.


I'll dig up skype (I must be illiterate) but even in that case, you have avenues.

By killing jcarl, you confirm sandro and basically cement all his reads. At that point unless you sheep him (based on how day 1 went) you're fucked. Thus you have to convince sandro to kill townies, and it's only a feasible choice to shoot jcarl if sandro is horribly wrong about one or more of you. i.e. had you guys fakeclaimed off the jackal death and become "confirmed" (I can 100% guarantee that they would never think a scum claim+counterclaim of cop would ever in a million years happen) then killing jcarl might have been okay.

However, that's still not optimal to simply shooting VE and leaving jcarl+sandro alive. Why? Because if you kill a scum day 1 so easily from sandro just saying "this guy is scum" and then day 2 they kill a townie, you can actually bullshit and shed doubt on sandro and jcarl. You can implant the idea that sandro+jcarl were mafia scumbuddies without ever explicitly even saying it.

That possibility is shot to pieces as soon as a mason flips. The mafia team needs to realize that from a town perspective, no one is confirmed without flips. They can be "confirmed" but that's still as good as nothing (albeit plenty of noobs will be convinced anyway). Townies have a tendency to trust results over anything else. Thus, if you kill a scum day 1 and then townies 2 days in a row, chances are they'll no longer believe that one hero from day 1 is actually town.

The problem of course was that none of you had the thread presence nor the foresight to know what to do. I know hindsight is 20/20 and everything, but when I told you guys not to give up I could tell already you had lost (after one lynch, nonetheless) because psychologically if you've given up you out yourself in the thread. You can't keep up a charade if you yourself don't believe in it.

this is very true. My issue is I had no idea what to do. It is all very well going out and be bold but you need a plan and I just couldn't think straight. You see the possibilities with claiming whilst I never see that stuff. I was always playing catchup and it hard to plan when everything happens before you can take action. It's demoralising when you try hard but you can't seem to find a way out. I think if I play on scum team where I am not throne having to think of the plan I might learn more. Right now I am just trying shit to see what works.

Thanks WBG. Ill store this for later use.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 01:32:07
May 04 2012 01:31 GMT
#1155
lol
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 01:32:16
May 04 2012 01:31 GMT
#1156
double lol
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 01:41:03
May 04 2012 01:40 GMT
#1157
fuck

triple lol
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