EPTIn what world does a townie just leave after claiming?
Storm Mafia - Page 26
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
In what world does a townie just leave after claiming? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 22 2012 15:55 VisceraEyes wrote: And BC is your strongest read right now Syllo? Like, without question? Did you ever get around to looking at the whole WBG/chaoser thing sir? I feel like that exchange means something. chaoser's defense was solid, but I didn't mind WBG's attack either. However, chaoser still seems to be interested in finding scum, while WBG has only recently been calling red scum...he's been tunneled in on chaoser ever since that argument. I'm starting to get a red read on WBG. did you just accuse me of tunneling chaoser? LOL. I guess you don't know what tunneling means. If you want to see me tunneling chaoser, look at Steamship. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On February 22 2012 16:56 wherebugsgo wrote: did you just accuse me of tunneling chaoser? LOL. I guess you don't know what tunneling means. If you want to see me tunneling chaoser, look at Steamship. stfu scum! (<3) | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On February 22 2012 16:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My issue is you never tackled the complexity that the claim itself brings into the game. He is just going to sit there and be confusing. He hasn't really done anything productive and has in fact looked scummy which multiple people have seen. I explained it a bit in an earlier post, this helps scum unilaterally if RedFF continues to live and dismissing him as being unlikely to do the claim himself ignores the fact that players can learn and that he also has 3 other team mates. Either A. RedFF is a tracker. Scum RB's him, we can never prove his alignment or that a RB actually exists (Even if most set ups do have RBers.) B. RedFF is scum and faked tracker. RedFF can claim RB while the mafia either does not have a RB, or does a RB + hit strategy to hide that RedFF is lying while still strategically using a roleblock. Me and GM employed this strategy in closed casket but for a different purpose, its fairly common. RedFF can claim to watch someone and see them do nothing, the only way to prove him lying is to have that player counterclaim that they indeed performed an action, thus outing a blue. Either way we have no way to prove RedFF's claim and he won't die until WE kill him because scum isn't going to do it for us when hes a walking pile of wifom. While he has posted some suspicious things, overall I do not think his play is indicative of him being mafia. Hence leaving him alive is fine regardless of his blue claim. We do not have to "prove" his alignment based on role information. Thus if scum choose to leave him alive and RB him, this is fine to me. I do not think he has been "confusing" and someone appearing "confusing" is ultimately a fault of the person observing him rather the person being observed. Someone being confusing isn't a good reason for a lynch. Also, I noticed that redff says something about getting a list of people who his target visited, which further reinforces the point that he is a tracker as the way he says it sounds genuine. For the reasons stated earlier, in the absence of a counter claim it is much more likely that he is a town aligned tracker. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
BloodyC0bbler - My complaints echo the complaints of players such as DocH and Syllogism...he's had plenty of opportunity to come look for scum - he hasn't. He placed a vote on redFF without saying whether he thought he was scum or not. I was less than satisfied with his responses to my posts, and I've been unimpressed with his effort so far in the game. I voted for this guy in L, and while I was herpin and a derpin, he was finding scum and establishing his innocence. wherebugsgo - WBG has similarly not been interested in finding scum. He called chaoser scum lightly at the beginning of the day, but it looked more like an excuse to get into a conversation with him than anything. This is directly after he just got done buddying him in his introduction post.  Followed up with calling redFF bad ad nauseum. Very clear to not say scum - only very bad. Suddenly this all changes after red sheeps after Jackal? Sheeping is something scum and town do in equal parts - verily, many a veteran townies count on a few sheep to push their agendas. Claims that most of what red has done can be explained 'with scum motivations'. Fails to elaborate or support this idea. Just throws it out there.RebirthOfLegenD - my weakest read - I'm really only interested in showing RoL rope if he doesn't start looking for scum. This redFF wagon essentially pushed itself, and he's making it his MISSION to make it happen. I don't even know if RoL thinks red is scum or not. But it's pretty clear that he wants red to die. TODAY. I can support a lynch of any of these three players, my preference is WBG, followed by BC, with RoL being my least favorite choice. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
I wanst sold on his lynch until his claim. But this claim is so bad that it got me thinking that he really is scum. As I stated, before, and as multiple people stated several time in the thread, town gains nothing from this claim. You've got to wonder : What does redFF gain by claiming day 1 if he is town ? Maybe he'll avoid the lynch. But then how is he going to avoid mafia KP/Roleblock ? How does he expect to be useful later on ? As town, it doesnt really make sense to claim. He then spends 3 post explaining that it would be a bad idea to lynch him now that he has claimed : On February 22 2012 07:14 redFF wrote: inb4 lying about claim, doesn't matter, its fairly easy to confirm a tracker, and you don't lynch a claimed blue day 1, especially a strong one like tracker. On February 22 2012 07:19 redFF wrote: Yeah usually its not good to lynch a claimed blue day 1. If scum it forces them to produce results and stick to a claim and later in the game questions are raised as to why they are not dead yet. So yeah you don't lynch claimed blues day 1. Obviously this isn't in line with wbg's school of mafia thought though. Yes that's exactly what i expect. On February 22 2012 07:21 redFF wrote: If pretty much all the major town voices are intent on wagoning me then claiming at 24 hours in and giving us another 24 hours to set up a lynch seems like a pretty good time. If i claimed with 12 hours left the wagon might have gotten too big and people may have not gotten back in time to unvote. All this seems weird to me. His defence seems to be focused around "Dont Lynch Me plzplzplz " instead of " I can still be usefull" and aroud " look I'm not scum" instead of "look I'm town". This makes me think he is scum. I'll be here until deadline, so my wote can still change if he somehow manage to convince me that he is not scum. But ragequitting makes me think that wont be the case. ##Vote redFF | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
All he have done the entire game is trying to start wagons. His votes have been going like this: RedFF -> Tyrran -> RoL -> RedFF His first vote on RedFF was when chaoser pointed out how silly RedFF's unvote of Tyrran was. BH sheeped that opinion and voted. He votes Tyrran with almost no reason. But note that it is after Toad brought him up by saying "I have troubling figuring him [Tyrran] out" Then he votes RoL after RedFF points out that RoL have been very inactive so far and VE says it was a good catch by RedFF. Lastly he votes RedFF again. This was after his claim and his vote was the 4th or 5th vote on RedFF. Read this post and the next 5 posts. He votes. Ve points of the wagon is forming to easy. He instantly agrees. WBG calls him out on it and he says that even if a wagon is forming easy the target [RedFF] can still be scum... wat? I jsut haven't seen an origional thought out of BH yet. Something he is very capable of doing. He ahve posted 1 liners most of the time (or very short posts). He haven't been in any argument over some useless shit that he usually does. Seems to me like he is holding back. ##Vote Blazinghand | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On February 22 2012 20:00 Tyrran wrote: Okay so here is my final point of view on the redFF case: I wanst sold on his lynch until his claim. But this claim is so bad that it got me thinking that he really is scum. As I stated, before, and as multiple people stated several time in the thread, town gains nothing from this claim. You've got to wonder : What does redFF gain by claiming day 1 if he is town ? Maybe he'll avoid the lynch. But then how is he going to avoid mafia KP/Roleblock ? How does he expect to be useful later on ? As town, it doesnt really make sense to claim. He then spends 3 post explaining that it would be a bad idea to lynch him now that he has claimed : All this seems weird to me. His defence seems to be focused around "Dont Lynch Me plzplzplz " instead of " I can still be usefull" and aroud " look I'm not scum" instead of "look I'm town". This makes me think he is scum. I'll be here until deadline, so my wote can still change if he somehow manage to convince me that he is not scum. But ragequitting makes me think that wont be the case. ##Vote redFF Is this the amount of effort you intend to put into this game as well or did you actually roll scuml? Just going to sheep bad wagons and not evaluate all the evidence? Have you read my thoughts on redff? Don't you find it weird that there is almost no resistance at all to the wagon? Your point about him claiming early isn't very good as redff gave a reasonable explanation for the claim and if he was scum, he could have fake claimed a better role anyway. It was likely that he was going to be forced to claim anyway at some point and claiming a bit earlier gives us time to discuss what we think about it. As his relatively early claim makes sense from point scum and town perspective and it's not really possible to determine which is more likely, it's a null tell. He can still be useful by being alive, tying roleblocker or even by taking a bullet. A tracker is not a DT in terms of usefulness. I may be wrong about redff and that's always the possibility in mafia, but the evidence suggests otherwise and as such you should be voting for someone else, preferably BC. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
His claim is problematic but I don't think we should lynch him. If he is telling the truth and is a tracker, every night he lives is dangerous for the scum so they will get rid of him. Wasting a lynch to do scums job for them and kill a blue seems optimally bad, weighing it against the alternative that he's scum and is trying to survive alittle longer or maybe out a blue I think not lynching him is the way to proceed. Even if he is scum he is less of a threat to town because he will not survive to the endgame. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On February 22 2012 21:34 syllogism wrote: Risk.nuke you've posted absolutely nothing so far. Why did you join this game again? Palmar can you start force replacing out people who aren't even playing Hrm timing. I was intending to post a bit last night then I just got stuck in the irc. I'm here now. And yes I will talk about others then redFF. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
On February 22 2012 21:17 syllogism wrote: Is this the amount of effort you intend to put into this game as well or did you actually roll scuml? Just going to sheep bad wagons and not evaluate all the evidence? Have you read my thoughts on redff? Don't you find it weird that there is almost no resistance at all to the wagon? Your point about him claiming early isn't very good as redff gave a reasonable explanation for the claim and if he was scum, he could have fake claimed a better role anyway. It was likely that he was going to be forced to claim anyway at some point and claiming a bit earlier gives us time to discuss what we think about it. As his relatively early claim makes sense from point scum and town perspective and it's not really possible to determine which is more likely, it's a null tell. He can still be useful by being alive, tying roleblocker or even by taking a bullet. A tracker is not a DT in terms of usefulness. I may be wrong about redff and that's always the possibility in mafia, but the evidence suggests otherwise and as such you should be voting for someone else, preferably BC. First of all, I dont think he fake claimed. He really is a tracker. As a scum tracker, he can easily act as town, he just wont track scummy people, will share his result and will be outing blue where we think he is looking for scums. It is extremely difficult to differentiate between a town tracker and a scum tracker. Another possibility is that another scum is a tracker, and he claims his role while simply being a mafia goon. What makes him really look bad is his reaction to pressire. He claimed, spend all his posts saying we should unvote him, then ragequitted the game. While I agree that WBG was agressive towards him, this is not at all a convincing defence. On the no resistance part : Yes I find it strange. Yet prplhz and you are actively defending him, and VE removed his vote from him. So there is a little resistance. (I dont think your scum, your defending him way too openly for that). Scum could also be bussing him. They bussed sheth from day 1 on arkham city after all, so it wouldnt be unseen. There is 8 vote on redFF as of now ,3 on BC, 1 on toad, 1 on Blazinghand. I'll read BC and blazinghand filter and try to see if they are a better lynch. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On February 22 2012 21:53 Tyrran wrote: First of all, I dont think he fake claimed. He really is a tracker. As a scum tracker, he can easily act as town, he just wont track scummy people, will share his result and will be outing blue where we think he is looking for scums. It is extremely difficult to differentiate between a town tracker and a scum tracker. Another possibility is that another scum is a tracker, and he claims his role while simply being a mafia goon. What makes him really look bad is his reaction to pressire. He claimed, spend all his posts saying we should unvote him, then ragequitted the game. While I agree that WBG was agressive towards him, this is not at all a convincing defence. On the no resistance part : Yes I find it strange. Yet prplhz and you are actively defending him, and VE removed his vote from him. So there is a little resistance. (I dont think your scum, your defending him way too openly for that). Scum could also be bussing him. They bussed sheth from day 1 on arkham city after all, so it wouldnt be unseen. There is 8 vote on redFF as of now ,3 on BC, 1 on toad, 1 on Blazinghand. I'll read BC and blazinghand filter and try to see if they are a better lynch. If he starts announcing people visiting anyone but people who died he dies before he can say noose. Please use your head, scum or town he wont do that. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On February 22 2012 21:22 syllogism wrote: Dirkzor I actually somewhat agree. Besides what you stated, I'm also wondering about Zephirdd's motives when posting those palmar PMs. Due to him being drunk and his play style sometimes being a bit erratic I probably shouldn't read too much into it, but the only reasonable explanation for quoting those PMs is to gain town cred by pointing to the fact that he asked the host questions even before the game began. I have not put much thought into whast Zephirdd did. You tend to do stuff slightly different when drunk. What seems like a bad idea sober is usually the most epic idea when drunk. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
On February 22 2012 21:59 syllogism wrote: As I noted earlier, I do not think it's likely that the setup has a scum tracker but no town tracker. Therefore the town tracker can just counter claim him, but I doubt that's going to happen as it's more likely that he is our town tracker. These are assumptions, but reasonable and likely ones. Anyway, I don't think he is town because of his claim, but due to other aforementioned evidence and rationale. His claim is really mhat makes him look bad to me. I was neutral on him before that. On Blazinghand: There is actually very little content in his filter, most of his posts are one liner, he has very little justifications behind his votes. Everything that dirkzor stated is true. I could support lynching him. Reading BC's filter now. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I'm not sure yet we really should lynch him simply because I doubt that mafia would be so vocal so early on. He was basicly BEGGING to get heat for that policy lynch. But then again I do the same as mafia and like to take heat because I think I can take it. All I've read from redFF so far indicates that he thinks very highly about himself so it's a possibility although it's totally wifom (in both directions). I think chaosers answeres to my case were decent and he's no longer my scumread #1 because of that. I am not going to lynch BC based on that because I got a different conclusion and I don't want to lynch into vets on d1. D1 is the hardest lynch because we have so little information and yet you want to straight away lynch BC? So it's really only redFF I'm left with right now or a rnd-lurker, but most people here are actually talking. Will be back in something like 3 hours I hope. Depending on my train and the shity internet my parents got... And I'll read this all on train. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
On February 22 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote: If he starts announcing people visiting anyone but people who died he dies before he can say noose . Please use your head, scum or town he wont do that. I'm not sure if your sentence make any sense... What I meant is that as a tracker, he can investigate players that mafia suspect of being blue, while still looking town because he'll share the results. A mafia tracker can easily act exactly as a town tracker would. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On February 22 2012 21:59 syllogism wrote: As I noted earlier, I do not think it's likely that the setup has a scum tracker but no town tracker. Therefore the town tracker can just counter claim him, but I doubt that's going to happen as it's more likely that he is our town tracker. These are assumptions, but reasonable and likely ones. Anyway, I don't think he is town because of his claim, but due to other aforementioned evidence and rationale. What if there are 2 separate scum factions Syllo? Palmar states that multiple factions are a possibility in the OP. I am not convinced red is town. A townie redFF would never call me a good scum hunter. He has made a point of telling me and others how much I suck at this game in the past. I can't reconcile this- On February 22 2012 07:09 redFF wrote:what, jackal said he thought toad was scum, i think jackal is a good scumhunter, i have similar thoughts, i post why i think toad is scum, jackal says he never thought toad was scum, i call him a wily old fox. - with a townie redFF. | ||
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