EPTYes! I'm on time for the signups for once! (right?)
Newbie Mini Mafia II
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Yes! I'm on time for the signups for once! (right?) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 04 2012 10:12 Probulous wrote: I expect great things from those that have played before. It seems fair to me that they should be expected to contribute. Of course, everyone should be actively contributing, but I will be really disapointed if the guys who have played don't put in the effort. You know the cost and will be held accountable. With this in mind can the following people let me know how many (if any) games they have played? Jitsu Xeris Gretorp Gonzaw This is my first game and I intend to win. Come on town let the streets flow with red red blood! This is my first game here, I think I said so before. I've played several games on UG though. I think there are two players from Election Mafia (one game I observed quite recently), Sheth and Jitsu I believe. I would suggest reread that game so we can know these guy's meta and stuff. Also I'd like to know if someone else played another game here, so we can reread those games too. On January 04 2012 11:05 Probulous wrote:Thirdly a no-lynch is better than a miss-lynch. I will be more happy to not lynch someone than lynch someone I think is town. Unless we are at MYLO, a miss-lynch gives you a lot of info. It gives you info on the players that interacted with that guy or voted for said guy. Obviously it gives you info of that guy (since he flipped). If you no-lynch, you basicly forfeit the day and let scum take the initiative at night. I think no-lynching should only be used if everybody derps a lot and the lynch of any player would give us no info whatsoever. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 04 2012 11:31 Probulous wrote: By roleblocking. If they block someone at night, that person (if they are town) should let us know the next day. you are informed if you have been blocked. That way we can eliminate some of the setup options. If there are 3 goons, a goon can fake-claim being RBed. If we go by that "If someone claims RBed, there is a RBer", then it will fuck us up. If there is a Medic, then he will believe there's also a DT (when in fact there isn't), and viceversa, and that can help scum with fake-claiming the other PR | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 04 2012 11:44 Cephiro wrote: Heh, such happens. But yeah, the statistics won't be very useful yet, but they are good to know anyway. (I study statistics at uni, and I love to try and apply them into everything.) I am quite sure it will become useful sooner or later, especially if we get the chance of backtracking roles. What I want to do today is covered in my post you already quoted. I would like us to be able to raise enough discussion and get a decent shot at who could be scum, since 2 mafia versus 8-9 townies (depending on if one dies N1 or not) would be an incredibly good situation for us. CookieMaker has a good point though, there is a 50% chance that there is a DT in the game, and buying him time to find the scum isn't a bad idea either. But we can't be certain if there is one or not, which why I'm still slightly favour for trying to lynch scum today, at least for now. We have quite a bit of time on us though, so if it seems like we can't get good reads on anyone and it's just a huge mess, we can still go for the no-lynch. Also, no problem for staying up late, I'm very bad at sleeping early and I'm so excited to play my first game of Forum Mafia! I will be going to sleep in 20 minutes or so though. So this is your first forum game ever? Not just first game on TL? You seem to know quite a bit about the game though, may explain why? Also, I'm fairly good with statistics/probabilities myself (just ask Jackal58), and I use them fairly in mafia games. If the situation arises, it can be very helpful, as long as everything in the game is RNGed. I assume this setup is RNGed, right? On January 04 2012 11:50 Probulous wrote: Fair enough but this comes down to WIFOM. I still think we should cross this bridge when we get to it. We gain nothing from these discussions right now. I want to hear from Sheth, where you at bro? Well, to be honest, I think we should get all the WIFOM-inducing things out of the way as soon as possible. That way other players will know when something is WIFOM or not (for instance if I hadn't said what I said, and the situation rose, some townies could think that it isn't in fact WIFOM and it's fact, and scum could take advantage of this). Plus, it gets some discussion going, and you can see how other players react to it (or don't react at all). On January 04 2012 11:43 Probulous wrote: I am confused I thought MYLO meant mislynch and lose. If that is the case, a miss-lynch is the end of the game  I guess that gives you a lot of information but certainly doesn't help town. Let me be clear, we are trying to lynch scum today and every day. That is our goal however lofty it may be. If we cannot get agreement then we can discuss a no-lynch. All I was stating is that a no-lynch is better than a miss-lynch, but lets avoid this alltogether and lynch scum. That's the point, if we are at MYLO then misslynching is not better than no-lynching (it loses us the game). But at D1, and any other time it's better. Of course barring exceptional situations and stuff. On January 04 2012 12:06 Probulous wrote: That is a good point Jitsu. As I have stated, I am aiming for a mafia lynch. Only if I believe that we are headed for a miss-lynch will I advocate a no-lynch. Again, where are the other US guys? Sheth, Gretorp? You're asking for a vote. The day is 48 horus long, right? I would suggest pressure voting lurkers/inactives after 24 hours or so are past. Although I don't know if you guys do that here or not. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:23 CookieMaker wrote: We get more information because SOMEONE still gets scum-killed. The hypothetical you in this conversation gets no additional information because they already knew who the town is. @Gonz I am going on the assumption that any inactives will be talking in a hurry before the 24hour mark is up. I'm very interested to see who pipe's up just before the noose gets tied What I gathered from the games I played is, there are always inactive players, and even if you threaten to pressure vote them, or actually pressure vote them, they remain inactive for a time. At least it will guarantee they will not remain inactive the whole day, since if they do they get lynched. Also, if an "inactive" player "talks in a hurry before the 24hour mark is up", why would he do that? That seems like a lurking scum not wanting any pressure on him whatsoever, and rushing in to not being voted, so even that gives us info. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:21 Cephiro wrote: Yeah, it's my first forum game ever. Haven't played this anywhere else either. I've read through quite a bunch of advanced games on different forums though, and I generally consider myself good at mindgames or understanding what people think / why they do something etc. So I'm really excited to see if it's correlates to success in here. Yeah, you heard right, watch out mafia! I am going to sleep now though. I will re-read the thread (especially the new posts) a few times once I wake up and will try to join in as much as I can. If you have a hard time of trying to find out who is scum, then please do the town a favor and at least try to find some most-likely-town reads, since even that will help us narrow down the possible lynch. I do agree that we could pressure vote lurkers/inactives later on in D1, hopefully forcing them to defend themselves and give us better reads. Interesting. If you are town, I really hope you are right about you being "good at mindgames". If you are scum I really hope you aren't. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Damn, something off topic though. How do you change the avatar thingy? I've seen some people change it to horses and stuff, but I get stuck with the starcraft one and don't know how to change it. | ||
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gonzaw
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I doubt scum would want to start town discussion as badly as him at this point. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 03:41 Cephiro wrote: I see what you mean. But regardless of what your reasons are, you need to be available enough so that we can get a read on you. Not being able to get any kind of read on you doesn't help your case at all. But I'll trust you... for now. You know, the problem I have with you for now is that you "trust" a lot of people and think a lot of people are town. Although finding out who's town is benefitial (since then it becomes a process of elimination to find scum), you should specially try to find scum directly. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 13:48 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Well, more then one. But the one that worries me the most. You better come here soon and explain that. I hate it when some players just post "I'll give my thoughts in a second" and never show up, whether town or scum. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 03:20 Gretorp wrote: haha aws just kidding with the post but I will definitely once I analyze more ;-) Again, this is what I'm talking about. Also, your "joke" doesn't help us at all. If you are town, you just confused the hell out of every one of us, you appeared scummy as hell and we will waste time and effort analyzing this "joke" of yours. If you are scum, then you can just use it as a justification for making a super-scummy-OMGUS first post and get away with it. Or you can use it to confuse town. Doesn't help us at all. And with this "I will analyze more" but not doing anything makes me think you are the 2nd. For now I'll pressure vote Xeris to come here and post his thoughts, but if we have nothing to go on by the time the day ends I'll vote for you ##Vote: Xeris + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 01:44 CatsnHats wrote: Lurking around at the beginning, writing a paragraph of text that amounts to nothing, and then OMGUS-ing the person that prods you... not a good look Gretorp. Pretty scummy if you ask me. Is it scummy enough for you to vote him? + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 12:13 CookieMaker wrote: Incorrect: We get more information, especially if we can get the participation level up a little bit. There's also going to be more posts from all players(god hopefully) before the day is through. Clearly the pool of prime lynch candidates is shallow at the moment. I will be voting for the player with the lowest vote total until I see a better option. I don't like how you are advocating the "no-lynch" here. You also say you will vote for "the player with the lowest vote total". Why would you do that? Are you trying to avoid voting anyone so no suspicions fall on you? The whole "no-lynch" discussions could be a way to justify yourself into doing this and just not having to deal with any votes or pressures whatsoever and have a free pass throughout the game. Also, I'd like to see your thoughts on Gretorp. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Shit, some people posted before I finished making my post. I'll deal with that in a moment | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 05 2012 03:58 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Ahhh yea. Gretorp getting busy. I like it. Were going to get some scum. Ok, well, I'm going to analyse some games for a bit, as I have to work. However before I go, I geuss I'll point out one thing. Everyone seems to be accusing everyone. It doesn't help, because we know its just one persons pressure and honestly we assume its fake pressure, because after all its day1 and we don't have any great reads. So, instead of this I recomend we get behind one person and see if they can tell us why they ARE NOT mafia. I was planning on leaning on Cephiro, for his post here : It comes down to a wall of text that tell us nothing. It just makes it look like hes contributing a lot when in fact he hasn't come up with a new opinion and his others posts are very non-committal. Just like wishy washy, things, and I thought it was just weird. However this morning you posted Which has some negatives and actually contribues some, so I'll back off for now. Kinda ironic that you wanted me to post my read today and my read was on you. @Tunkeg we shall see. CatsnHats what do you think about this Gretorp guys first too posts. Good / bad / scummy?!? Hmm, I don't know if you can really make the "he hasn't come up with new opinions" and such argument on Day 1 of a newbie game where most of us haven't played a single game here yet. If this was a game with more experienced players, or at least ones that played here more than one game (like you, Jitsu, and stuff) then it would hold I think. Also, what do you think about Gretorp? + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 04:22 Xeris wrote: I can guarantee you guys that I am not mafia -- I'm a townie. Anyone who has played mafia with me knows how terrible I am at being a mafia. I am a really good townie though, so you should definitely keep me in the game! I don't vote in this thread right?? When are the votes due (i.e. what actual time)? ??? Why would you need to say that as your first post? If you are "a really good townie", then why did you feel the need to make this post if you were one? Also, I don't think editing posts is allowed here. Also, what are your thoughts on the game so far? (I'll keep my vote on you for now until you do) + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 04:17 CatsnHats wrote: I said this earlier in regard to Gretorp's first post and I still stand by it. He backs off in his second post but adds nothing, just promising analysis later, which I look forward to seeing because right now I'm suspicious . @Sheth You would have a better read on Gretorp though since you have played with him before and invited him to this game. What do you think about his first posts? Again, you said you are suspicious of him and you think he's scummy. But you didn't vote for him yet. Is there a reason for it? Are you just "waiting" to see what he does or something? Also I'd like to see Probulous (sp?) thoughts so far too. Also, just in case, what timezones are you guys in? That way we know when each of us is active and so we don't do stupid stuff like saying someone is lurking when they are sleeping or something. I live on -2 GMT (so it's almost 6 pm here). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:42 Xeris wrote: I don't favor randomly lynching people in the first night -- unless there is some actual suspicion. Statistically, maybe it's better to random lynch, but I feel like the chances you might randomly kill a cop // medic make it not worth it. I prefer using the first day to try to get reads on people, then wait until Day 2 to use the information gained in Day 1, based on who ends up dying / etc to make a more reasoned/educated prediction about who might be mafia. Randomly lynching is a really stupid idea. Nobody mentioned RL yet, why did you? Anyways, just so we get the RNG lynch our of the way, this is what I think of it (feel free to ignore it if you want though, it doesn't really add anything new to the discussion): I think the point of random lynch is, first, to have EVERYBODY ABSOLUTELY AGREE to lynch whoever is chosen. Then, we somehow randomly choose someone (we can make everybody RNG someone, and the one that comes up the most is chosen). Although scum will surely choose themselves, and will surely not choose a fellow scum member for the lynch, so this gives us info too. Then, we decide to lynch the guy. If nobody objects and completely agrees, then we can be sure that player is town (scum would flip their shit if their team member is RLed on Day 1). If somebody objects, then maybe he's scum (and his scumbuddies are objecting), or it's just a townie changing his mind. In any case, you don't lynch anybody, you use it as a ruse to get information and get confirmed townies and stuff. The gist of it is not mentioning this to anyone though. Anyways, I don't know if this can work or not, so maybe in Post-Game (or now if you want) we can discuss it more thoroughly. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Shit nevermind, I just saw that your nationality is displayed next to your username, so no need for the timezone stuff >_> Although if people say at which GMT time zone they live in, it would be better though (USA has a lot of time zones for instance). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 05 2012 05:21 Jitsu wrote: RNG is a bad idea. This is a game about limited information. No real information is gleaned from RNG a lynch. What happens if you nail a mafia member? Nice! What happens if you nail a townie. You just learn that that individual player was green. Glean information from posts, sort it, filter it, analyze it. Posting and lynching based on evidence is a better theory than randomly trying to pull numbers out of a hat and hopefully snag mafia. I hope by Day 2, people will have enough reads and analysis where a random lynch wouldn't even have to be mentioned. I'd still like to hear from CookieMaker and AnxiousHippo. For one who posted with a lot early activity, and the other who preached it, they surely have dropped off the radar. Yes, that's the point. You ACT like if you were going to make a lynch based on RNG, but in fact you don't. It's used to get info. If the guy chosen by the RNG is scum, I'm sure scum members will freak out. If the guy is townie, I'm sure nobody will freak out (except that guy obviously). After the guy to lynch is decided, and everybody voices their opinions, you just say "lol jk I wont' random lynch him" and just play normally. Of course I think this may be best suited for a Mayor for instance, since I think those choose the lynch on Day 1, or some similar role (it would be kind of impossible to pull this off in a normal setup). | ||
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gonzaw
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+ Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 05:37 CatsnHats wrote: @gonzaw I haven't voted for Gretorp because I thought we weren't supposed to vote until near the end of D1. Throwing a vote out with so many hours left to use for reads isn't very smart. Plus I was waiting for his response, as well as the first posts of Xeris and the return of Blurry, who seems to have fallen off the face of the Earth. Votes can also be used for pressure, and to see the reactions of other players (and the one you voted obviously). Specially on Day 1. Although if you are certain the guy is scum, then vote for him with all your courage and try to convince other people of so. Although okay then, that's fine.I expect you to make some "reads" on Gretorp/Xeris/etc soon though. Also, yeah Blurry hasn't come here yet. He's from Switzerland though? What time is it there? Hell, this is why I wanted the whole timezone thing (maybe the timezones should be put next to each player's username just like the Nationality, although again maybe that's for Post-Game or another time). + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 05:34 Xeris wrote: If there are legitimate concerns about someone on the first day, sure, I'd probably participate in a lynch. But I don't really see how you can determine that on the first day when you have basically NO information to go off. Further, because this is online mafia, you can't even read people the same way... I don't see how you can possibly get a good enough ready on someone in the first day, before any action has happened, enough to confidently lynch someone. Are you seriously telling me there's nothing to go on by now? Also you haven't responded to my posts, nor reacted to me voting you, you are basicly ignoring me. | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 05 2012 05:52 Tunkeg wrote: @gonzaw I belive Blurry is on CET time just as I am, which no is 21:52. So thats KST -8 (KST is displayed up in your right corner)- So KST is how much in GMT? .. Wait nevermind, apparently is 1 hour behind me, so it must be KST= -3 GMT Anyways, that means Blurry wasn't asleep this whole time. Well, I guess he'll explain why he's inactive once he comes here. On January 05 2012 05:58 Jitsu wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 05:37 gonzaw wrote: Yes, that's the point. You ACT like if you were going to make a lynch based on RNG, but in fact you don't. It's used to get info. If the guy chosen by the RNG is scum, I'm sure scum members will freak out. If the guy is townie, I'm sure nobody will freak out (except that guy obviously). After the guy to lynch is decided, and everybody voices their opinions, you just say "lol jk I wont' random lynch him" and just play normally. Of course I think this may be best suited for a Mayor for instance, since I think those choose the lynch on Day 1, or some similar role (it would be kind of impossible to pull this off in a normal setup). RE: Gonzaw/RNG: I understand the idea of it, but in a newbie game, I think you are thinking to hard into it. Also, especially now, I think it would be too hard to effectively play that way, simply because scum now know that if one of them RNG's, that guy is dead weight and will probably be killed regardless. Alternatively, RNG'ing a blue might force a reveal, which might be equally as bad. I like the idea a little. I like backing up lynches with logically posts a lot. We have two days from the beginning of Day 1 to analyze enough posts to find something to go one. I said this RNG lynch discussion I was making had nothing to do with this game in particular, it was just a general thought on how to "Implement" RNG lynch in other games. I would only implement that in a game with a Mayor or some role that decides a lynch (so it can be done more smoothly), and only if there is absolutely no leads for a lynch. Basicly, I would want that as an alternative to no-lynch (if it were the case), since if you want to no-lynch because you have no information, faking a random lynch will give you the information you don't have (and hopefully will make you change your mind and actually have a lynch on Day 1). | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 05 2012 06:25 Jitsu wrote: RE: Gonzaw/RNG: Ahhhh, I see what you are talking about. Well, let's focus on this game, than, eh? Gonzaw, give me you're opinion on three people: Myself (Jitsu), Cookie, and Cephiro. Hmm, for one, I agree with most of your posts. I agree with your points about having a lynch on Day 1. I agree with you that Cookie is acting strange. The only things he posted where the 50/50 chance of there being a DT thing, and him advocating no-lynch. Plus what I already stated about him, that he said he just wanted to vote the player with less votes, effectively ridding him of any responsability for the lynch. However, you only discussed those things and this whole RNG thing, and I'm not that content with that. You also pressured AnxiousHippo, and then you never came back to that. At the very least, you could have pressured vote him, so you know he will have to respond to you some time in the future. I'd like your response to why you didn't continue to pressure AnxiousHippo. Also I'd like you to contribute more regarding other players, like Liquidseth (sp?), Gretorp, Catshats, etc. Speaking of which, it might be a good time to actually pressure AnxiousHippo too. Regarding Cephiro: I think he's one of the 2 players contributing more here, with the other one being Probulous (although he's been fairly inactive for some hours, I'll just assume it's the time zone thing). I like his enthusiasm and activity, that seems fairly pro-town, but I don't like that he's "trusting" a lot of people and having too many "town reads" for the moment, and basicly no scum reads. I'm waiting for his response to my post too. | ||
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gonzaw
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Also, it's 'your opinion' not'you're opinion' >  . ..lol jk | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 05 2012 06:54 Jitsu wrote: RE: Hippo Pressure I was giving him the benefit of the doubt when it came to time zones, seeing as how it's just becoming 7AM where he lives in Australia. If it's painfully obvious that he's blatantly ignoring my posts, than the heat comes on. I pressed him twice, third time is the charm. A lot of people pretend to be aggressive when they just make bullshit posts. I don't believe i'm one of them. RE: Cookie I see. I agree mostly with the thoughts on Cookie. Strange indeed. @Cephiro, what are your thoughts on CookieMaker? Ehmm Jitsu, when I said I wanted your thoughts on Liquid/Gretorp/Cats/etc I meant it lol. But really, what are your thoughts on these players? | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 05 2012 07:59 CookieMaker wrote: My turn. This is my first big read. If you disagree with any of it, please raise the issue. Here are my "Strongest" town reads. Each section will have a brief summary and then reads for the player and reads against, with bolded sections of quotes being the evidence I'm presenting. This was originally going to be longer but I'm starving and heading for groceries asap so I just took the best of what I had. For this play the pro-town evidence feels significantly stronger. Cephiro: -This read is on the big assumption that he is not a highly experienced player disguising himself as a rookie. Otherwise: + Show Spoiler + Appeared nervous at the start with the majority of his math, but I'm chalking it up to newbie nerves. He then goes on to be both active and helpful (even though he may not realize it). Many of his posts seem very slightly hesitant, but my guess on that is because he's seen how these games can quickly bandwagon an innocent townie to hell and he's just slightly afraid. My gut feeling on him is by far the strongest, and if I had to pick anyone right now to be pro-town, it's him. Pro-town evidence: + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 10:42 Cephiro wrote: I'll have to say CookieMaker provides a few good points to start with. Even though none of us knows the exact set up, I would have to argue that we as town have a much better starting point. Considering the case that the mafia would have a role blocker, it will most likely be less useful until later game when people are starting to have better reads on each other. If the town has both the medic and detective, it is quite likely that they will be able to do something useful. (Mafia role blocker would have 9 persons to choose from, since he/she would know the 3 mafia.) That leaves a 2/9 = around 22% chance of roleblocking on the first day, since I'm quite sure there will be no roleclaims this early. On the other hand, the medic has a very small chance of blocking the first kill on N1 (1/11 * 8/9 ~ 8% chance), but the detective has a chance of as much as 27% finding scum on N1 if he doesn't die. (Which would be about 24% in total, which is still higher than the chance of mafia roleblocking.) Note: You may notice I'm into maths a lot.... Also, it might even be that the mafia has a roleblocker but the town has no power roles, which renders the mafia roleblocker useless, making the situation even worse for them. Anyway, I think that we should try to be provocative and try to raise as much discussion as possible. In my opinion we should aim to lynch someone (hopefully scum) on D1. A no-lynch would essentially give the mafia a free kill, and not necessarily get us that much more information. Also... What a lovely way to start the game... but on the other hand, I doubt even a newbie scum player would slip that early, even though it could be done on purpose to make us think even a newbie wouldn't slip such, but in fact being scum anyway? In this first post the sentence I like is bolded. Straightforward and to the point, and clearly trying to integrate what he read in other games before this started. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 00:16 Cephiro wrote: Time for a D1 analysis! Obviously I'll leave myself out, but if someone wants to know more about my opinions / ask why I'm in favor of something, please go ahead, discussion is what we need at the moment. Also, my apologies if I'm wrong with someone's gender, I'll make a mean generalization and expect everyone to be a male until noted otherwise. Player List: 1.CookieMaker For now I'm leaning slightly towards town on him, even though he is quite in-favour of the no-lynch possibility. But I think that may be due to the fact that it's his first game, and he may not have read through/followed many mafia games before. So I'm thinking he's rather be safe than sorry, but hopefully he'll realize the amount of information even a possible mislynch will give us, not even mentioning the huge lead we can get if we nail a mafia on D1. His posts could have slightly more actual content, but he's trying so for now he's okay to me. 2.Liquid`Sheth Hasn't posted anything useful aside from welcoming people and pressuring CatsnHats. Sure, pressuring at this point has to be done, but deciding to pick on one person for no real reason at this point and providing no other content? Hopefully he means well and just tries to make sure CatsnHats plays pro-town regardless of being new, I mean, Sheth does have 2 previous games of TL mafia as a base of experience. But for now, I am reading something between neutral or slightly scum. I dare you to prove me your innocence, so I'll be waiting for your morning post. 3.AnxiousHippo Doesn't seem to have any idea of what he should be doing, but I guess it's understandable since it's only his second game. I am hoping to hear more from you, since you haven't posted enough content to make any kind of read on you. Neutral. 5.Tunkeg Good forewarn on not being able to answer at the start of the game. Appareantly was on the winning side in his first game. He seems like an aggressive type of person, wanting to start the accusations and pressure to get some discussion going on. Thinks that D1 lynch is a must, but backs it up with some very good points. Took the first vote playing it relatively safely, voting for a lurker who hasn't posted yet. Clearly wants something to happen, but I am for now unsure if his method will be very successful. Neutral for now, but if you keep the activity up I should be able to get either a slight-town or slight-scum read on you soon. 6.Jitsu Seems to want to actively participate, and most of his posts so far are convincing people to lynch on D1. Hasn't posted any actual content other than that though, so I will still stand on a neutral read. I am hoping to hear more content from you soon, I need to get more reads. 7.Xeris All I can say is, no content, not a good sign. Neutral. 8.Gretorp Same as above, neutral. 9.Gonzaw Answering people's questions, trying to explain some of the basic stuff that should be understood, looks good to me. I like the way he pushed to know more about how I seem to know about the game, so he seems like he isn't taking anything for granted. Also suggesting pressure voting to get things going. I have a slight town-read here. 10.Blurry Seems to be in favour of no-lynching, wanting to stay on the safe side. Hasn't talked about anything but different possibilities if a mafia roleblocker exists. Not useful. (Okay, I'll have to admit that my statistics post at start wasn't necessarily very useful either, but I've been at least trying to post other content as well.) Neutral for now, but if you won't be posting more, I would lean on slightly scum. 11.Probulous Being very active at the start, and the play seems really town-favouring. Constantly asking for opinions and explaining his reasoning. I like his opinion on lynching, definitely wanting to lynch mafia but still keeping in mind the possibility of being careful incase we don't get any reads on D1. Hopefully we will have some scum reads that we can go for so no-lynch won't be necessary. Pressuring the people that should be on according to timezone but haven't posted. I would have to say you are my strongest town-read so far, I want to hear more of your opinions when you're back. 12.CatsnHats Being a new player, it's understandable that he's a bit confused, but you really need to learn that you CAN'T TRUST anyone but yourself. Whatever you think about the situation or someone's reads, say it, don't just agree or disagree randomly. I'm kind of worried of the chance that you are a townie whom the mafia would be able to talk around easily, but I hope you'll prove me wrong. (about the convincing part.) Or you could be mafia that is pretending to be a super-newbie town on his first game... who knows. But you're neutral so far. Start posting your opinions! I'm not going to vote yet myself, but I will join the pressure voting in a few hours if Xeris and Gretorp aren't going to turn up. More of the same. He lays his cards on the table for all to see, and it's doing it for me. My gut tells me that while a mafia player might make the same post to gain trust, they wouldn't attempt to analyze as hard as he has. Rather, they would use it as more of a confusion technique and be even more wishy-washy. When Ceph isn't sure on someone, or has a weak gut feeling, he still says it, rather than trying to present two opinions and fuel a debate. Similarly, when he's sure of himself, he also is very direct in stating his point. Not only that, but he was dead-on when he said my posts thus far didn't have very much useful content. He was right, I had nothing to go on at the time and was still fishing. I have bolded sections in the above quote that reflect what I like about this. Even though his EBWOP was slightly apologetic, it had a very natural feel to me, out of genuine concern rather than fear. Maybe I'm reading too far into this, but the apology might be a gut reaction to himself having to read so much (a realization I also had as a first-time player). + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 07:14 Cephiro wrote: Hello again everyone! Got caught up watching a good movie, but going to catch up on mafia now: I see your point. I consider that you need to be able to trust some people to some extent in this game, and I am trying to find players which I can be fairly sure of to be townies. That does not mean I will analyze them any less though, I'm not taking anyone for granted neither am I setting anything in stone. I think that the first 24-hours of D1 in this game are quite hard to start pointing scum fingers at someone, but I assure you that whenever my scum sensor alerts, I'll let you all know. So I do get your point about finding scum directly, but I don't want to negate trying to find out whom are town. In my opinion, both is better than just the other. About Gretorp, I am certainly not liking his play so far. He has only posted twice, which of one was appareantly a joke, and the other being an explanation of the first message. The fact that he has posted but still hasn't said anything with content feels suspicious to me. What do you others think? Random Lynching is a retarded idea in my opinion, (since someone brought it up, I'll have my say in this as well.) because we still have more than a whole day on us to make reads, and since we don't have a mayor in this game, we can't use it in the way you were theorycrafting either. I still stand by what I said at start, I want us to be able to get enough reads on people to lynch a scum on day 1. Jitsu's post pretty much sums up my opinion. I don't approve Xeris's play at all so far, all he has is two posts talking about the different ways of lynching, he hasn't provided any opinions about anyone, nor asked anyone else about their reads. Not very pro-town in my opinion. If he isn't going to step up soon, I am probably going to pressure vote for either him or Gretorp. My timezone is GMT +2, so it's around 15 minutes past midnight at the time of this post. I will probably stay up for at least 2 more hours. @Jitsu: I'm actually starting to be really suspicious of him at the moment. He had a very active start, even though his content was somewhat fluffy. I've changed my opinion about him since my earlier post, partly due to many people providing good reasoning about his play so far. I am actually wondering a bit as he hasn't said anything since yesterday's start, so I'm interested to hear if he has some actual opinions or reads to give when he comes back. This recent post is another goodie IMO. Again very direct and unafraid of his position and stance on strategy, as well as attempting to offer genuine contribution. I've again bolded what he says that really ring a green bell with me. His consistency shines through. [bAnti-town evidence: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 04:41 Cephiro wrote: Okay, I'll admit that my statistical starting post maybe wasn't the best opening post ever, but at least I tried, unlike many others... can't blame me for being excited and trying to contribute! To be honest, I don't understand your claim about me being wishy-washy at the start, when I was clearly trying to push for some points. For example: On the other hand when I read your posts, I see almost nothing useful. You're trying to pressure CatsnHats, and trying to clarify some acronyms and such on D1. You're not posting any of your reads. And now you asked CatsnHats about his opinion on Gretorp when he already posted about it... you're giving surprisingly much attention to him to start the game with in my opinion. I'm pointing my FoS at you. I'll have my eyes on you Sheth. I'm not going to accuse you of being scum yet, but I suggest that you all watch Sheth's posts carefully. You'll have to try harder than that to convince me. Really this is more town-evidence IMO, but some might say that the speed with which he flipped the accusation around makes it suspicious. I tend to think that it's just a bit of an instinctive OMGUS, otherwise he handled the pressure really well and without any trace of guilt. As well, I kinda like his read on Sheth and the way he's now using Sheth's own tactic against him :D -Slightly Bandwagon-ish: He is slightly following the bandwgon on the Xeris train, but I don't blame him at all here because I'm of the same mind. On the whole his contribution has really stuck out to me as useful (or trying to be) rather than "active filler". This is one of the few reads that I'm much more sure of. If there is a medic in this game, my recommendation would be on his protection because I think he will be one of the standards around which the town needs to rally. Gonna grab food, and compile more reads, and tonight I'm gonna hit y'all with some knowledge. Current Opinion: Very Pro-Town So, you made a great analysis of why a player is town. Is this game about finding townies? No. I already said this to Cephiro, our priority is not finding townies. Your priority is not posting walls of text of who you find townie. Your priority is finding scum. Now, apparently you forgot about that part. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 08:13 CookieMaker wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 07:58 AnxiousHippo wrote: This is one of the worst posts so far. Cookiemaker points out that Probulous leaves right after making accusations, and later says that he's about to go to sleep too. He also talks vaguely about how people are trusting eachother but so far it's only been cephiro and catsnhats, there's barely any trust from everyone else. He then uses a fancy metaphor which always annoys me, like they're trying to sound better. Then he posts some more useless metaphorical stuff saying he wants people to be a bit more active. and then a poem. cookiemaker clarify what players seem to be trusting eachother sheth tell us what posts are bothering you Also, where did blurry go? @AH The players who I saw as "trusting" each other were Sheth, Probu, and Gonz, who seemed to be employing the similar tactic of applying "harmless" pressure to see what the responses would be. I was going to just come out and say it, but I didn't want to players under fire to be let off that easy, so instead I wrote the cute little Haiku  Now really going for food, stay tuned for more action. What? If I pressure people the same way as another player, I trust him? I don't think that makes much sense. Also, I don't really "trust" people in mafia games. I either think they are town, scum, or I'm indecisive. Even if they are town, I may still not trust them. For instance, I may not trust their reads. I believe Probu to be town for instance (for now, he's been absent for some time and I find that worrysome), but even if that's the case I don't really trust him for now. If he finds some scum, then maybe I will. Also, you never explained that "I will vote for the one that has less votes" part, it seems you are trying to ignore that we pointed it out. I think you are scum bro. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 07:14 Cephiro wrote: Hello again everyone! Got caught up watching a good movie, but going to catch up on mafia now: I see your point. I consider that you need to be able to trust some people to some extent in this game, and I am trying to find players which I can be fairly sure of to be townies. That does not mean I will analyze them any less though, I'm not taking anyone for granted neither am I setting anything in stone. I think that the first 24-hours of D1 in this game are quite hard to start pointing scum fingers at someone, but I assure you that whenever my scum sensor alerts, I'll let you all know. So I do get your point about finding scum directly, but I don't want to negate trying to find out whom are town. In my opinion, both is better than just the other. About Gretorp, I am certainly not liking his play so far. He has only posted twice, which of one was appareantly a joke, and the other being an explanation of the first message. The fact that he has posted but still hasn't said anything with content feels suspicious to me. What do you others think? Random Lynching is a retarded idea in my opinion, (since someone brought it up, I'll have my say in this as well.) because we still have more than a whole day on us to make reads, and since we don't have a mayor in this game, we can't use it in the way you were theorycrafting either. I still stand by what I said at start, I want us to be able to get enough reads on people to lynch a scum on day 1. Jitsu's post pretty much sums up my opinion. I don't approve Xeris's play at all so far, all he has is two posts talking about the different ways of lynching, he hasn't provided any opinions about anyone, nor asked anyone else about their reads. Not very pro-town in my opinion. If he isn't going to step up soon, I am probably going to pressure vote for either him or Gretorp. My timezone is GMT +2, so it's around 15 minutes past midnight at the time of this post. I will probably stay up for at least 2 more hours. @Jitsu: I'm actually starting to be really suspicious of him at the moment. He had a very active start, even though his content was somewhat fluffy. I've changed my opinion about him since my earlier post, partly due to many people providing good reasoning about his play so far. I am actually wondering a bit as he hasn't said anything since yesterday's start, so I'm interested to hear if he has some actual opinions or reads to give when he comes back. Yes that's fine, let's just hope you keep your word that you'll try and find scum though. I'm sure other players will remind you that though. Also, where the hell is Xeris? He ignores my vote and posts completely, then disappears? Wtf? *sigh* this won't get us anywhere. Probu is right about the inactives though, unless we install a "lynch lurkers" policy lynch (or should have installed it long ago), lynching them will not give us that much info, and if they don't post more we can't really get any good reads on them. The thing is that other than the threat of a lynch, how do you pressure lurkers/inactives into posting? If we just let them pass then they could be inactive the whole game or as long as they want. If they are scum they can just cruise through the game. *sigh* I'll just not pay attention to it for now then, unless they post, which I want them to. I suppose this applies to Gretorp too, even though he posted more (but more nonsensical things). ##unvote: Xeris ##vote: CookieMaker You know what Probulous? You remind me of how I see those mafia vets here play. You know, post images that follow giant walls of text, analyzing "behaviours" and such. Now, although I feel you are town, I mostly feel you are a good player, and a dangerous one at that. If you end up being scum I'm sure you will fuck us up. So I urge other players to take a good look at Probu, even if they think he's town, just in case. Also Probulous, something I want to clear: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 10:14 Probulous wrote: Your support of discussing WIFOM scenarios was particularly bad. It just distracts town and adds nothing to finding scum. In UG I get shit from everybody because of this, and everybody thinks I'm mafia every game because of it (I was town every time). Hell, I'm the "WIFOM king" or something there supposedely I still stand by what I said. Imagine someone claims RBed or something on Day 4 or something, would you want people discussing WIFOM there? Even worse, would you want townies thinking there isn't any WIFOM involved? For instance, take that "If someone claims RBed, then there is a RBer" statement someone said before. If I hadn't mentioned that it's WIFOM, then townies may have believed it as true, and if scum fake-claimed RBer if there are 3 goons, we could be fucked. It's better to mention these scenarios as soon as possible when it doesn't have the chance of derailing any discussions, so townies know about it later. Also, not to be nitpicky here or anything but + Show Spoiler + Mafia would not be so stupid as to not post at all and even then we only have at most three inactives (Blurry, Gretorp, Xeris). Are people seriously suggesting that mafia is just not posting? Ehmm, isn't that WIFOM? Also agree that Cephiro isn't actually doing that much in terms of actually contributing, just posting a lot of "town reads" and such, but I already said this to Sheth, I don't actually know if the whole "contributing without contributing" thing that's going on here can apply to newbies who haven't played the game before. Specially with someone as excited to post as Cephiro, he may just post whatever he thinks, even though it may be unnecessary filler or such. I may be wrong though, but I won't take that into account for now. | ||
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What? Didn't I quote and respond to Blurry? Did I delete that response? lol wut? I'll get to it again (if I remember the points I made) | ||
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Shit I feel so stupid, I had another tab opened with the response and didn't see it >_> + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 08:51 Blurry wrote: Part 2: (taking a long time to write this) I know I originally wanted to not lynch somebody but the benefits of information make it a more appealing option and I feel like we have some solid candidates 7: Xeris Has contributed absolutely nothing other than his stance against a lynch today. No analysis or contribution. Leaning on Scum. 8: Gretorp Has also not contributed anything + no stance on any issue presented. Unless he posts something meaningful in the next day he will get my vote. Leaning heavily on scum. 9: Gonzaw Likes to pressure people and prod them for feedback. Also posted his thoughts and took a clear stance on issues. Leaning on town. 10: Me I haven't contributed much other than the Roleblocker thing but I will stand by that. If someone gets role blocked they should immediately say it. The more information the better, and it would be risky for a mafia to claim being role blocked if it gets revealed that there really isn't he is automatically implicated. So guys, if you get role blocked: make sure you tell us. 11: Probulous Another discussion leader. Has been active in contributing and putting pressure on people (catsnhats). Leaning on town for him. 12: CatsNHats Although he may have flip flopped positions early in the game I still feel like he is town as he has not shied away from speaking his mind on who he thinks may be scum. We should pressure him but my stance on him is neutral. Ugh... I don't feel like I added too much with that so I'll go back over everything and post my overall feeling for the game so far. Hmm, I find it interesting how you use the same format Cephiro did for posting your analisis. Did you do that on purpose or is it a coincidence? Also, who are those "solid candidates" you speak of? If you had to lynch only one of them now, who would it be? Gretorp? Does the new events change your opinion or not? Also: + Show Spoiler + I haven't contributed much other than the Roleblocker thing but I will stand by that. If someone gets role blocked they should immediately say it. The more information the better, and it would be risky for a mafia to claim being role blocked if it gets revealed that there really isn't he is automatically implicated. So guys, if you get role blocked: make sure you tell us. Isn't this kind of obvious? Of course if a townie is RBed he should claim, why did you feel the need to state so? | ||
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On January 05 2012 12:33 Probulous wrote: I like you  WIFOM is bad, yes what I wrote was WIFOM but it was hardly necessary to the point I was making. I do not believe that all mafia are lurking, sure people can vote them, I won't be one of them. But I concede your point about me WIFOming. I won't do it again. Discussing it helps no-one. If we have a situation where this comes up, for example people claiming, we discuss it then. Not now. It clogs up an already busy thread. I am not a smurf, so don't insinuate that I am. If people think I am dangerous, great. Try and be dangerous too. I don't want to be the only one pushing my reads hard. If you find someone suspicious, go after them hammer and tongs. What's a smurf? 2 different accounts or something? No I'm not implying that (also it doesn't really matter), the fact is that you are playing like those other players, and that makes you dangerous in my book. Ehm, I prefer to discuss WIFOM in the early stages, preferably at the beginning of Day 1 where everybody derps and there is no discussion going on at all, than in the heat of an argument or something on Day 4 or Day 5 should the need arise. Imagine something happens in a night that makes people talk about WIFOM (maybe a Medic dies and someone claims RBed, or something). -If we hadn't discussed it before, then people would start doing it at that time. That would take away precious time to catch scum, could interfere with ongoing arguments, etc, specially if we are at LYLO or something -If we had discussed it before, then as soon as someone mentions anything you tell them "shut up and reread the thread, it was discussed before if you continue we lynch you" and bye bye WIFOM interference. For instance, if someone claims RBed, and another person says "Wait! He could be scum fake-claiming! bla bla bla" I will instantly shut him up and tell him to reread what I posted earlier. Also, just so the discussion about WIFOM doesn't become a WIFOM discussion itself (in the sense that it interferes ongoing discussions), let's just stop right here. Either agree or disagree, we can discuss it in Post-Game or Pre-Game of another game later. | ||
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On January 05 2012 13:14 Probulous wrote: Yes a smurf is a vet playing under a different name. Players do that? Why? I disagree but we can leave it for post-game. If that situation came up I woudl tell people to shut-up about and if they didn't listen would make my own case and push it. If we lose because people are derps that is not my problem. I cannot make you vote one way or another if you are not willing to listen. Anyway, leave it for now and we can discuss afterwards. Agreed.... | ||
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On January 05 2012 13:24 Probulous wrote: See the first Student Mafia ElectricBlack was Palmar's smurf and Blazinghand was WBG's. In this case it was to coach but sometimes people smurf because they want to survive night one. If a vet comes into a game with a repuation for hunting scum, they are already a target, hence the need for a smurf. But it kind of defeats the purpose of "Newbie Mafia". It's not fun having a vet shredding newbies to pieces in a game that doesn't correspond to him just because he "wants to survive night 1". It also means that he's free from having his meta used against him. Why should he have that "advantage" and other players not? On January 05 2012 12:48 Probulous wrote:Whether he flips Town or Mafia says nothing about you or me. I am pushing his case based on what he has provided. I don't know whether he Mafia for sure, but he is the most likely. he is also the most dangerous because people don't seem to see what I see. If he flips town I am no more Mafia than if he flips Mafia. Okay, what is this? If he flips town or mafia (if he's lynched) it will tell alot about a lot of players. Isn't that the reason we were advocating a misslynch earlier? If he flips town, then it means your whole argument regarding him was false. It means that you "misread" a townie and advocated his lynch. Why would you do that? Were you honestly mistaken or did you do it intentionally? Regarding how you react to his flip, and looking at your filler, many players can conclude many things from this. You are basicly implying that if he flips town, then you are not suspicious and nobody should look at you. That would be pretty convinient if you are mafia, and pretty dickish if you are town. | ||
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Meant "Depending on how you react to his flip, and looking at your filter...", damn, I hate not being able to edit posts here. | ||
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On January 05 2012 13:51 Probulous wrote: Oh dear, both of you at the same time. The point is that if I find some scummy and they turn out to be wrong. Read the analysis. Of course as town you want to prove someone is scum by nailing them to the wall if you are town. You would do it less conclusively if you were scum. You tell the difference by the analysis, not by the vote. That is all I am trying to say, because people can easily get this impression that if you make a huge post calling someone out you cannot be unintentionally wrong. Of course you have to reread the thread, read his filter, and read his analisis for his vote. But you can't say that this method, AND the conclusion are the same whether the flip is red or green/blue (which you implied by saying that the flip said nothing about you). Also, of course the flip inherently, in itself, and taken out of context doesn't say anything about anyone, unless there's an open setup with 2 blue claims and the flip is of one of them. I am not implying that if he flips town you shouldn't find me suspicious. On the contrary I am saying that if he flips town you should re-read the analysis and make up your mind based on that. I can't get someone lynched on my own, I have to convince people. If a townie gets lynched it cannot only be my fault, other must have voted too. How do you tell the scum? Through their reasons for voting, mine is my analysis. That is all I am trying to say, people's votes can give you a feel but they can also lead you to make assumptions that are wrong. Be careful! Well, I thought you were implying the opposite (read above). Also yeah, let's just drop it for now. Also, I may have to disagree with that guide just a tiny bit regarding semantics: Now, what if by some miracle, Youngminii was lynched and flipped green, or worse, vigilante? What would that have said about Foolishness? Think hard and carefully here, because this is a logic issue that really has plagued the town in so many TL games, especially this one. At its core is the question: what does "lynching for information" actually mean? The lynch outcome alone would have said nothing about Foolishness! If Foolishness is veteran, how does he have any definite knowledge of what Youngminii is? He doesn't, therefore he can only do his best and try to figure out YM's role from the tools he has. That in itself does not distinguish him from Godfather Foolishness one bit. The key distinction between the two is to look at how he got Youngminii lynched and his overall play, not that he got Youngminii lynched. The latter fact, while not entirely irrelevant, is nowhere near sufficient enough on its own to warrant a lynch (and everyone knows if YM had popped up vigi Foolishness would've been autokilled the next day). Thus it would be nonsensical to lynch YM because you think it will give the most information (the information is next to useless). The only reason to lynch YM, or virtually anyone ever, is to kill mafia. That's it. Saying "If player X is town, he doesn't know what Y will flip" is not logically the same as saying "If Y flips, you don't know if X is town". Easy counterexample is having 2 DT counterclaims, and X votes for the one that says he got a vanilla check from X. Without taking mechanics into account, then, well, you have to rely on the analysis stuff again. | ||
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On January 05 2012 14:43 Probulous wrote: Why Sheth Just when you are looking good you write something that comes across really scummy. You are also making the same mistake I originally did, here are the setup options. Set Up: 1 Mafia Role Blocker, 2 Mafia Goons, 7 Town, 1 Medic, 1 Detective 1 Mafia Role Blocker, 2 Mafia Goons, 9 Town 3 Mafia Goons, 1 Medic, 8 Town 3 Mafia Goons, 1 Detective, 8 Town They can have a roleblocker with no blue roles. It just means that if someone is roleblocked, there are either no power roles or both DT and Medic. No point speculating now. I know you are heading to bed but who are your top 3 scum reads, please before tomorrow morning. Can we got a vote count please? If someone is RBed (again, take the WIFOM I mentioned earlier into account), then if YOU are the DT, YOU know there's a medic, since the only possible setup with both a RBer AND a DT is the 1st one (which coincidentally also has a Medic). He says "Then it means we have a medic who can save you if you come out". He's clearly speaking to the DT here. I thought that was pretty apparent. Also, I suggest everybody keeps a notepad or something open with all the votes/suspicions/important events/thoughts and stuff. I know I do, and it will come very handy to you guys. Also, if you can't reread the thread, or do a simple CTRL+F with "##" search to figure out the vote tally, then it means you aren't really putting that much effort into the game (which is odd from you, so I guess you are just being lazy or something now, or trying to gauge someone's reaction or something). | ||
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On January 05 2012 18:58 Xeris wrote: I've been quiet because I work around 15-16 hours per day, and realistically, I'll only get to check this thread probably: once in the morning, once or twice at work, and in the night (nowish). I talked about the badness of random lynching because the first few pages of posts kept mentioning random lynching. This thread balloons crazily and I don't have the time to read in detail every post. So when I see 15-20 posts about random number generators and lynching people, I want to explain why I think that's bad. Anyway, it seems like the suspicion points at Cephira and CM (who just got replaced?). Brb reading some of the posts more carefully Meh. I'm not convinced of anything. I'll follow along with a lynch if people are convinced and just going to go for it- but I stand by my belief of not killing on the first day. Seriously, thinking people are scummy because of stupid analysis skills and bad/inconsistent posts is really silly. Although perhaps I have no clue about online mafia, anyway that's basically it from me. Will check in the morning, glgl The problem is not that you are inactive, the problem is the content of the little posts you have. Things like this for intance: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 04:22 Xeris wrote: I can guarantee you guys that I am not mafia -- I'm a townie. Anyone who has played mafia with me knows how terrible I am at being a mafia. I am a really good townie though, so you should definitely keep me in the game! I don't vote in this thread right?? When are the votes due (i.e. what actual time)? + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 18:58 Xeris wrote: I've been quiet because I work around 15-16 hours per day, and realistically, I'll only get to check this thread probably: once in the morning, once or twice at work, and in the night (nowish). I talked about the badness of random lynching because the first few pages of posts kept mentioning random lynching. This thread balloons crazily and I don't have the time to read in detail every post. So when I see 15-20 posts about random number generators and lynching people, I want to explain why I think that's bad. Anyway, it seems like the suspicion points at Cephira and CM (who just got replaced?). Brb reading some of the posts more carefully Meh. I'm not convinced of anything. I'll follow along with a lynch if people are convinced and just going to go for it- but I stand by my belief of not killing on the first day. Seriously, thinking people are scummy because of stupid analysis skills and bad/inconsistent posts is really silly. Although perhaps I have no clue about online mafia, anyway that's basically it from me. Will check in the morning, glgl Those seem like a contradiction to me, you can't say you are a "really good townie", and then undermine your own play, saying you'll just sheep along, and that you don't have any "clues about online mafia", etc. Actually, it is a contradiction assuming you are town. If you are scum, then it would be perfectly fine, even so since you said you were a horrible scum player, am I right? What's your response? + Show Spoiler + Seriously, thinking people are scummy because of stupid analysis skills and bad/inconsistent posts is really silly. Who exactly are you talking about here? + Show Spoiler + Although perhaps I have no clue about online mafia, anyway that's basically it from me. Will check in the morning, glgl Also, stop doing this. Even if you are a "newbie", you shouldn't "undermine" your own play. It will make other people underestimate you too, and you will have a more difficult time convincing them, etc. ...of course, if you are mafia this is actually pretty good for you, so don't do it (it's just like Gretorp's "joke", it's dumb if he's town, but works for him if he's mafia). If you have the time, I'd like you to respond to my questions to you, and of course give us your thoughts on the current events. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 15:32 Blurry wrote: I posted in the same format as Cephiro because I'm new to this and I'm trying to pick up on how this game is played. Thus you will see me emulate some things that other players will do or how they format their analysis. This won't be the first time you will see this. Solid Candidates: Gretorp, Cookiemaker I would probably rather lynch Gretorp because he hasn't said anything To your last point: This is a newbie game, maybe its not obvious. I just want to make sure that people know to claim a RB. Emulating other players, just by formating your post in a similar way to make things more tidy and stuff is fine. ...but don't emulate players in other ways. Try to be yourself here. Also this could be the perfect excuse for sheeping or jumping on bandwagons and such "I was just emulating player X!". So try to be as "authentic" here as possible. + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 00:53 Blurry wrote: Okay, my last post for the day: Staying on CM/Tea as I am still unsure about Cephiro. Other than that, I'm sorry I couldn't contribute more this first day as I am still new to this and am not sure what to look for in terms of reading players but by going over players posts I am getting a good idea and I'm sure my analysis quality will steadily improve over the course of the game. One thing that strikes me looking back at all this is CM voting for CatsinHats. If CM/Tea is indeed scum then I think this provides evidence towards cats not being scum as I dont think CM would have been that meta especially with the holes in his play he has already shown. This can't be assumed however so I would still be suspicious. To be honest, CM's vote was formatted wrongly. Whether it was intentional or not, I don't know, but the point is that it won't count for the vote tally. There's the small chance both of them are scum, and he formatted wrong on purpose, so don't go assuming otherwise (of course he could have just bussed normally and forgot to format it correctly). Also, damn, this whole replacement thing is kind of a let down. I wanted Cookie to come and explain himself, *sigh* I suppose we can't do that anymore... I'll check Tea's posts in a moment. I also suggest all of you view Tea's posts in the same light you viewed Cookie's posts. If you thought Cookie was scum, then you think Tea is scum; if you thought he was town, you think Tea is town, that's irrefutable. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 20:22 A Killer Cuppa Tea wrote: Ok, i'm really far behind right now and rereading quite a lot. I've read up to page 8 or so, and up to this point it seems to be mostly commentating on NL vs Lynch. Allow me to state my stance on this (it differes massively from my predecessor, it seems). There are three ways we can handle D1. We can 1) No Lynch, 2) Mislynch or 3) Lynch Scum. It is not possible to Random Lynch. Why? Because Random implies that there is no reasoning behind the lynch and that it happens, almost spontaneously. It is already too late for this to happen. it is not an accident that i ordered the three things we can do in that order. I order them from Worst --> Best. I'll explain why: 1) No Lynch - This is badbadbad and we should never ever ever NL on any day that isn't a MYLO. The lynch is town's Primary Weapon. Not the cop. Not the doc. Not any other Power Role. The lynch. This is, when you get down to it, a game of the Uninformed Majority vs the Informed Minority. The Majority - town - has no information. The minority - scum - has a lot of information. The way to beat the minority? Information. How, then, do we gain information? Through cop results? Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy-no. Nevieer rely on a Power Role. That's silly. What you gonna do the one game that the cop dies N1? Roll over and die? No, the best form of information is the lynch for reasons i shall dictate below. 2) Mislynch - Oh no, we lynched town. Is it the end of the world? Nope. Not even if we lynch a PR (altho i hope we don't). Its not an ideal situation, but its nowhere near as bad as it may sound. Consider the following: 1) Scum must vote too. 2) Scum know who Scum are. 3) Scum will be eager to lynch Town* By analysing behaviour and how people vote, and in what order, and how they jump on and off wagons, it can be incredibly helpful to see who the Scum are. Now, i'm not claiming to be the best in votal analysis (That's a friend of mine, we cann him The Machine because of how damned consistent he is in finding scum), but i'm pretty decent at it. Here are a few pointers: --Scum doesn't like to start wagons. --Scum doesn't like voting next to each other --Scum will often jump onto a wagon on a townie early --Scum will often jump onto a wagon on a fellow scumate late. In fact, in my experiance playing mafia, i find that finding connections between people is much easier when we Mislynch then whren we actually hit scum. Although, thats just personal experiance, really. *Of course, this does not mean that they won't lynch scum in order to get on town's good side, but thats Wine. 3) Lynching Scum - yay, we're a scum down and even have a juicy wagon to analyse! Awesomesauce! So, what am i saying here? Lynch for the sake of lynching? Of course not, that's terrible!!! And i think this is the problem that most people who are Anti-D1-Lynch as Town have with Lynching. We make an Informed Lynch, not a Random Lynch. We ask everyone for their specific reasons for voting and if they ain't to par, we hold them to it. ...??? What's the point of this? Are you assuming that we are discussing the same things we were on page 8? First, you hadn't read the thread before being replaced? I got the feeling all replacements followed the game like observers and such, so when they were replaced they already knew the things about the game. For instance, if you were replaced in Day 5, then good luck reading all the thread! Second, why didn't you wait and read all the thread before posting? The whole random lynch/no lynch discussion will only set us back. + Show Spoiler + Now, i'm going to admit to a Thing here. I'm not the best scumhunter in the world. I tend to find more scum via mechanics then by actual hunting (hence the reason this post has been mostly a mechanics post then a read-post), but i've learned a great tool that helps me hunt scum. Questions! Seeing how people react to questions is incredibly informative. As such, i am going to ask the follow questions to everyone in the game, both to start conversation and also to give people reason to slip. Most of what i've read so far (i read the fikrst 8 pages and skimmed through the rest) have been mostly going back and forth over the same little things. i'm hoping these questions will bring some more information to the table. (Also, these questions aren't rolefishing because im asking them of everybody.) 1) If you were a Cop (could determine the alignment of somebody during the night), who's alignment would you check and why? 2) If you were a Doc (could save someone from a nightkill), who would you save and why? 3) If you were a Vigilante (town-aligned nightkill) who would you kill and why? 4) If you were a Town-Aligned Roleblocker (could prevent someone from using their night action for a night) who would you block, and why? (Also, remember, an RB can act as a soft-cop. If you block someone and there's no nightkill, you may have blocked the mafia's kill! (Yes i know there's no Vig or RB in this setup.)) 5) If you have a vote on someone currently, please explain your vote. 6) If you don't have a vote on somebody, please park your vote on someone. Have an opinion. It doesn't matter if you're wrong. Abstainance lets scum hide amongst you! I'll answer my own questions, as well as vote someone, and post some reads, when i have caught up proper (which should be later today). i thought i'd post a mechanics-related post before i caught up and posted reads to show y'all that i was here and also state my opinion on a discussion that occured before i joined the game. Again, what's the point of this? Your posts would be fitting if Day 1 started 2 hours ago, but, why do you feel the need to post this if there's plenty of information to go by? Also, why talk about blue roles when it isn't even night? If you want to discuss how to direct the blues or something, do it at least when Night 1 starts. Maybe a blue role is misslynched or modkilled or something this day. This goes for the other people talking about blues too. + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 02:30 A Killer Cuppa Tea wrote: This strikes me as odd. Why are you so nervous about roleclaiming? You only have 2 votes on you, you aren't even in any danger of being lynched (for now). That last "I'm nowhere near my last resort yet. After all I just started playing!" seems very nervous to me. People put the slightest of pressure on you with that "abstinence" thing and you crack like this? + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On January 06 2012 01:49 Jitsu wrote:There is plenty of discussion in the mean-time where questions like these waste more logical thought than is required. If you want to WIFOM the proposed blue specials, do it later, but as of right now, there are better things to discuss, especially with the limited time we have left in the day to center our votes on someone. The DT and Medic are both roles that will need to be smart about who they use it for. Why are you even bringing in a Vig/Role Blocker when they aren't even in the game for the Town? We don't know if there are blue roles or not, so I find it uncomfortable with people assuming there are. Take into account that if scum have 3 goons, they know there is a blue role, so this could be regarded as a scumslip if you push it further. Also, this is for the Medic/DT if there are: Don't post assuming there are blue roles (yourself), scum can figure this out and kill you in a heartbeat. | ||
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My vote is on Cookie/Tea, and it will stay the same for now, at least until Tea responds back. I thought Cookie was scum, and Tea isn't doing anything to change my mind. | ||
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Although, Xeris became active just now (for a bit at least) and I'd like some pressure on him. I think he's being inconsistent, even though he has like 4 posts. Although voting him will do us no good, and most likely result in a no-lynch. | ||
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Oh, forgot Tunkeg voted Tea too. I should correct that part where I said "you only have 2 votes on you". | ||
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On January 06 2012 06:15 Jitsu wrote:RE: Gonzaw - It's a scum slip that I said the proposed blue roles, and that DT and Medic need to be smart on who to activate their specials on. I think you're reading way too far into it. I'll say it again, as well as reiterate what has been said many times prior; talking about Blue roles at this point is stupid. We have no reason to even bring it up since this is lynch day, and we don't even know if they are in the game, as you said. ...wut? You are admiting you scumsliped? Wtf? Should I just assume that was a question and you fucked up the grammar or something? Also, I was under the impression you were assuming there is a blue role, which is stupid at this point (even though there's 75% chance of there being at least 1 blue role, but again leave that to night 1 talk). And like I said, if scum have 3 goons, they know for sure that there is a blue role, and therefore can scumslip. Assuming there is a blue role, and this scumslip are almost impossible to distinguish, so if you are town just stop doing it (you and everybody else, specially the blue roles if there are any). | ||
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On January 06 2012 06:26 Jitsu wrote: There was supposed to be a question mark at the end of the sentence. And you are telling me to stop talking about blue roles when i've said twice now that it's pointless to talk about them. I'm telling you to stop assuming there are blue roles. I was telling Tea to stop talking about blue roles (and Sheth, and those other guys that did so before, and the ones that answered Tea's questions). | ||
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Good, we need a lynch today. We only have 9 votes on Tea, so nobody even think about swinging their votes at the last minute and force a NL, we'll assume you are scum if you do. I'll reread everything now (maybe I'll be finished once the day is over though). Also, I REALLY hope Xeris and Gretorp come here soon, they (specially Xeris) have A LOT to explain. And hell, if they are replaced again I'll shoot myself in the foot. | ||
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Okay guys, now reread every town and scum read from Cookie/Tea and knowing they were green. Also check everybody's reason for voting them, just like we were discussing with Prob, etc. Hey Prob, a question regarding the inactives: On January 06 2012 08:58 Probulous wrote:I agree that Xeris, and Gretorp are looking bad, but that is mainly due to inactivity. At this rate they will be mod-killed for lack of a vote. You really think Xeris and Gretorp ONLY (hyperbole here, don't dwell on it) look bad because they are inactive? What do you think about Gretorp's "joke", "promise" of analysis' and failure to state so? What do you think about all the points I mentioned about Xeris? Him saying "I'm a good townie! Look at me!" and then undermining himself? Him posting thoughts about RL (same as Tea) when it was never discussed and failing to address any of these points when he was active?. | ||
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On January 06 2012 10:15 Probulous wrote: Ok, one last post before I leave, you guys keep dragging me back in  The problem I have is that the lack of posts makes it very hard to judge what Gretorp's motivations are. How do we tell whether he is a bored/timepressured townie or a mafia trying to lurk? I am more than happy for others to try and work it out but it would be a waste of time for me to try. Nothing they have done screams townie, but nothing screams mafia either. This because neither of them have done anything. Hence they are both null for the moment. I would implore my fellow townies to provide some analysis on why these guys are town/mafia. I just can't make up my mind based on what I've read. Finally both have been warned for lack of voting, if they do it again or don't post for 24hrs they will be modkilled. Why waste a lynch at this point that gives us no information? Better to lynch someone we think is scum than someone who may or may not be. I'm not actually saying they are mafia. They are just VERY scummy, inconsistent, and we NEED TO PRESSURE THEM AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Ever since the whole Cephiro vs Cookie thing came up, we basicly ignored them. We can't do that anymore. We have to either threaten them with a lynch, or with a DT check (if there is one) or something, they can't go like that anymore. Also, like I said the point is not lynching them just because (that's stupid), the point is getting them to talk. Also, I'm very suspicious of Xeris at the moment. Even though he had 4 posts in which you say makes him "hard to judge", here's what he did: -He contradicted himself. -He talked about mechanics when it wasn't necessary nor was the current discussion -He ignored people's votes and pressure on him. -He played the "I'm a good town! You better not lynch me because I'm good!" and the "Maybe I'm bad at online mafia, don't take my reads into account" card (related to point #1) I can't just ignore him, I can't. | ||
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For instance, I can't believe EVERYBODY ignored this: Meh. I'm not convinced of anything. I'll follow along with a lynch if people are convinced and just going to go for it | ||
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On January 06 2012 10:40 Probulous wrote: I realised that I didn't actually answer your question So here we go It is bad play. No town should promise something and then not deliver. However he did point out the waffle nature of Cephiro's posting and his unwillingness to actually say someone is scum. Hence until further posting arises he is null to me. Fair enough. Although remember that just because someone has similar views/reads to you it doesn't make him less mafia or more town. Your analysis is pretty good. I always had him as more scummy than Gretorp. His avoidance of responsiblity and blatant trashing of any case presented is not helping. Neither is his lack of posting. He does look scummy but I still want to hear from him before making up my mind. Well, don't we all? Okay, there are 2 basic reasons for voting Tea (or AKCT, whatever): 1-For previous reasons of certain players 2-A bandwagon vote to avoid a no-lynch. Players in the 1st category would include: Me, Tunkmeg, Blurry Players in the 2nd category would include: CatsHats, Sheth, Prob, Jitsu, Cephiro, Hippo *sigh*, not really much to go on on that 2nd category, almost everybody reasoned their vote for Tea to avoid the no-lynch. However, some of the players in the 2nd one did FoS him before. Tunkmeg was the first one to FoS him (I think), but he stated his reasons, and were actually good ones, so quoting him or discussing it any further wouldn't do us much good. About Blurry though: On January 05 2012 08:28 Blurry wrote:1: Cookiemaker AnxiousHippo raised a very good point about Cookiemakers most recent post in his stating that trust has been developing amongst certain townies without providing examples. There was no reason for him to say this other than to try and fluff up his posts. Right now he seems scummy to me. Here he just used Hippo's point to FoS him. Doesn't seem like he put too much effort in analyzing him. On January 05 2012 15:58 Blurry wrote: I may be a little late on this, but this is a clear tell for me that he is scum. The "I'm not contributing because you already took my points" is simply trying to absolve yourself from having to provide any analysis. ##Vote: CookieMaker Again he's using other people's analysis as well (Prob pointed that out Cookie's sheeping of Jitsu first).. At least Tunkmeg came up with points of his own to FoS Cookie, Blurry seems to regurgitate things already said. On January 06 2012 00:53 Blurry wrote:Staying on CM/Tea as I am still unsure about Cephiro. Other than that, I'm sorry I couldn't contribute more this first day as I am still new to this and am not sure what to look for in terms of reading players but by going over players posts I am getting a good idea and I'm sure my analysis quality will steadily improve over the course of the game. Something I don't like here, same as Xeris, Cats, etc. DON'T.APOLOGIZE.FOR.NOTHING Need I remind you to read Ver's Guide, were supposedely the Mider guy was obvious mafia because of his constant apologizing and undermining himself? I already stated my opinion on this subject though (when I responded to Xeris). One thing that strikes me looking back at all this is CM voting for CatsinHats. If CM/Tea is indeed scum then I think this provides evidence towards cats not being scum as I dont think CM would have been that meta especially with the holes in his play he has already shown. This can't be assumed however so I would still be suspicious. I pointed out that you don't need to assume unnecessary things. This is not actual WIFOM, but it's a false statement ragarding a WIFOM scenario, which is the same if not worse than the WIFOM itself (but yeah, we still all call it WIFOM nevertheless). You also have a very short filter (post more), and I don't like that "I will emulate other players" attitude: On January 05 2012 15:32 Blurry wrote:I posted in the same format as Cephiro because I'm new to this and I'm trying to pick up on how this game is played. Thus you will see me emulate some things that other players will do or how they format their analysis. This won't be the first time you will see this. In fact, you didn't respond to me when I pointed that out either. I don't really have a red read on him yet, since he posted way too little. But I want him pressured next day, along Xeris and Gretorp. | ||
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On January 06 2012 11:32 CatsnHats wrote: Ok guys. I don't really want to do this, but I'm going to since it really is the best for the town. I think all of you should vote to lynch me on D2. I've come to realize that I am a terrible player of this game, especially as a townie (with no role I might add!). I should have found the newbie forum or got a better idea of this game before i signed up to play it. My first few posts I made before I realized the psychological and analytical implications of this game handicapped me and I've been playing the defensive ever since. After the bad start I put myself in, my goal was to make it past D1, which I did, so I'm fine with getting lynched if it's agreeable amongst everyone (I'm sure the scum will agree). All I have really done is distract you all from the real the scum with my terrible play, and that's not fair to the town. I also admit, I haven't added much in the way of original analysis because I was afraid that it would put me in even more hot water. The obviously wasn't the right play. Maybe you all can get D2 sped up if the mods allow it so anymore scumhunting time isn't wasted. This probably isn't the correct time to do it since it's N1, but for the record. ##Vote: CatsnHats For the record: in light of CM/Tea turning up green, I think it takes some heat of you Ceph. You (and the rest of the town) should spend your time looking into Xeris and Gretorp (because of questionable/contradictory posting when not lurking) and pressuring AnxiousHippo, a player who has gone unnoticed to others because of all of the accusations going around. He's made filler posts, keeps making excuses for not reading through everything, and throws out a placeholder vote for Xeris and a very bandwagon vote for CookieMaker/Tea. Quoted below: ....what? Okay, first things first: this is a GAME Even if you say you "suck" at it and make "town" pay or something, try and get better at it. Make it like a New Year's Resolution: I'll be good at TL mafia. You are actually making it worse for us this way. You will make us waste all of D2 because you want us to lynch you there. If you are town, we will not find any scum because of it. If you are town, and you act "scummy" and such, it would be better to misslynch you if you fight and defend yourself than lynch you just because you are a burden or something. In the first case we can get more info actually. If you are scum, then maybe you just don't like being under so much pressure, so you acted like you "surrendered", and maybe even ask for a replacement because you are coming under too much fire. Whatever the case (if you are town or scum)., you are not doing us any favour, and you are not doing any favours to yourself, so regain yourself goddammit! | ||
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Just in case, I'd want to make a general "tip" for all of you: If you are responding to someone, quote the post you are answering to This makes reading filters much easier, since you don't need to go back to the thread and see what a guy is responding to for every post of the filter. | ||
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On January 07 2012 00:55 Tunkeg wrote: Bah, misslynch. But I still found CM scummy, so I will stand by my desicion to vote for him. Seeing how people jumped on the BW in the end here it became obvious that we were heading for a misslynch. I beg all of you to analyse this lynch and the reasoning the people had behind their vote. This was already said, nothing new. Now I'll be a little bit pessimistic. Even if we have a great deal of players who is posting alot and contributing wwe have quit a few lurkers. The worst of them beeing Xeris and Gretorp who didn't post once yesterday, and didn't even vote. This is so incredible anti-town that it is starting to annoy me. Blurry have also been somewhat lurky, but hat least he have posted some, so we have something to base our analysis on. So here you state that some people are lurking, and didn't post nor vote... Do you think we don't know that? Tunkeg, this info here is absolutely useless. You are not saying anything new Then we have Cats doing the selfvote, this is really sad, and I would usually vote off anyone who do this kind of stunt. But instead I will beg you Cats to unvote yourself, and come back to the game, you have been more active then alot of others and I don't agree that you are terrible at this game. Sure, some of your posts are suspicious and I might end up voting for you on day 2. But I'd rather that you come back and play the game, defend yourself, make cases and help town win this, than OMGUS'ing yourself and leave. The worst thing you can do now as a town is to get yourself voted off on day 2, as we then probably will be down 3 players going into night 2. If we lose this because of you selfvoting and leaving I will surely blame you for the loss and consider your play bad as hell, if we lose after you coming back and at least trying I will not blame you for it (sure I might think you have made some newbie mistakes if you are town, but I won't hold that against you). This was stated by Prob and me too. Again, you are not saying anything new. Now for some WIFOM, hold it against me if you wish. I said yesterday that I would put anyone not voting for someone up for the lynch under heavy scrutiny. Well, 3 players didn't vote at all, one got lynched. For the two others, Xeris and Gretorp, I am truly dissapointed. Do this mean I think they are members of the North American Scum League, no, my WIFOM logic is that scum wouldn't risk not voting and getting modkilled, however these guys might actually be smart enough to realise that they would just get a warning and just meta this (This is why WIFOM is just WIFOM). I think it is likely that they are just bad townies because of this, but I leave a small chance for them to just be very clever scum. Yes, this is WIFOM, and very bad at it. Do you know how many games I played where some scum forgot about the game, disappeared and was modkilled? It's not "scum always pay attention to the game". If a certain player is busy, or doesn't care about the game in the first place, he won't care about the game whether he's town or scum. They don't have to be "clever scum" to be inactive. Hell, that's even the opposite of "clever scum", they have all the pressure and eyes on them, they eventually have to get here to not get modkilled and they have A LOT to respond to. They also have a chance of getting DT checked, or even getting policy lynched. This sounds pretty stupid to me if they are scum (and doing it on purpose); so what you said doesn't make any sense. Really Tunkeg, you were giving me a town feel, but this post is a mess and screams fluff and regurgitation everywhere. What the hell? | ||
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On January 07 2012 05:41 Tunkeg wrote:LOL, are you just trying to pick a fight here? I will post whatever I like thank you. Post a real analysis or gtfo, analysing my one post here is just meaningless, it was my post on how I felt the lynch went. But please feel free to post more useless analysis as these, you might just reveal yourself as scum if you do... What? I'm pointing out your post is a mess, I want a reason why. You could have just used the lynch to analyse other players, like we are all doing, and is what you should do, instead of posting that meaningless post. Why do you say it's an "useless analysis"? So you are free to post all the fluff and filler you want then? | ||
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On January 07 2012 05:59 Tunkeg wrote:And I am saying that my post is perfectly fine. Just because you guys have said something while I wasn't able to post in the thread doesn't mean I can't post my view of the lynch. And yes, I wanted to encourage Cats to continue, I don't care wheather you or prob did it. And yeah, my WIFOM was WIFOM but I explained why I won't be going after Xeris and Gretorp for not voting. Pleeease feel free to pursuit this, but if you want to make a case on me, go through my filter and dig up some more. Only good thing about your post is that you got my attention, before you have pretty much been floating under the radar for me. What? Is this some subtle OMGUS or something? You also said "I beg all of you to analyse this lynch and the reasoning the people had behind their vote. ", and I don't see you doing anything about it. Only good thing about your post is that you got my attention, before you have pretty much been floating under the radar for me. ....what? I've been flying under the radar? Wtf is this? I will pursue this because I find it odd as hell, both your post and your response. I don't have to make a case, why would I do that? I am not FoSing you, I just want answers. | ||
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On January 07 2012 06:19 Tunkeg wrote: No, it is not an OMGUS of you as a whole, it is a OMGUS of that post you made to me though... You have been flying under the radar for ME, I haven't paid much attention to you at all, and kind of had a null read on you. I am not saying you have flown under the radar as a whole, as you have a fair amount of posts. Your post makes me want to go through your filter, which is a good thing. It's not my fault you didn't pay attention to me. Of course it's good reading other people's filters and analysing, it's what you are supposed to do. You are free to post however you want, but I don't see you getting much more out of nitpicking on my one post here. I have answered you now to why I posted as I did(which I really don't think should be necessary, as it was my reaction to the lynch). Hmm....fine then. So how about you do that "analysing peoples reasons for their votes"? What do you find? What do you think about Blurry for instance? And about those that bandwagoned to avoid the NL? | ||
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On January 07 2012 06:38 Tunkeg wrote:Where did I ever say it was your fault? I just said you know have caught my attention. Are you trying to missunderstand me on purpose? What? I'm not misunderstanding you. I was implying it's your fault you didn't pay attention to me earlier. You should pay attention to everybody. How about me analysing peoples at my own discretion, this is night, and then we have the entire day 2 to do it, meaning I can do some good analysis (hopefully) instead of rushing into some bad analysis that is useless. Why wait? I'd prefer to not waste time and pressure and analyse as soon as possible. It may give us more precious time on Day 2. | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 07 2012 08:05 Tunkeg wrote:OK, either my english sucks or your english sucks, or both of our english sucks. Or maybe you are just a nitpicker, who want to bicker about every little detail. Fine, whatever. Ofc it is my "fault" for not paying attention to you, but you were just posting so much uninteresting, but not scummy, stuff that I didn't take interest in you. I don't get what "you" are bickering about here. You posted that you didn't pay attention to me until now. I posted that I agreed, and you should have in the first place. I don't get what's to "nitpick" here...? Or what this has to do with our English (..es? I don't know the plural)...? But when you did your "analysis" of my post you caught my attention. Because anyone wanting to waste peoples time by doing those kind of analysis should be looked into. Okay, I really want other people to tell me if my "analysis" is "useless". I don't believe it is. I try to pick up inconsistencies and odd behaviour from anyone I can, that's how I catch scum. I picked up yours, and suddenly it's "useless". Really? So my "analysis" is bad just because I did it on you? And looked into you I have. You have alot of these non-interesting and non content posts, but inbetween you have some good posts where you question and pressure people and do reads. I find it ironic that you try to call me out for what you belive is a non-content post when you have so many yourself. I don't care what you prefer. How do you feel about that? What? Please, if you find a post from mine similar to yours in terms of fluffiness (or whatever you call it in this forum) be my guest. I try to be blunt and catch scum, not post "updates of what I feel" or whatever you did. Also, as you can see, this conversation is not helping anyone. You are stating things without backing them up (that I have "non-interesting posts" for instance, I don't get what you mean by that). You are also stating blatantly false things (that I "misunderstood you"), and you are being very apathetic and chlidish in a way (you say you will post your analysis whenever you like, and that you post whatever you like, that you don't care what I prefer, etc). This doesn't mean that you are scum, but it means that you are being unnecessary helpless and obtuse. On January 07 2012 08:08 Tunkeg wrote: @gonz BTW post you own damn analysis if you feel it is so important to get it done as soon as possible. If that is your stand, do that. And make a good analysis, not just these bad ones, like the one you did for my post. I already posted my analysis, go reread the thread. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 07 2012 09:37 Tunkeg wrote: You want me to link every filler post you have made? Fine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=6#105 - Useless http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=6#116 - Pretty much just jibber jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=7#131 - Filler/useless http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=7#133 - One of many questions http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=10#183 - Nitpicking on about RNG http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=10#188- RNG again... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=13#251 - One of many edits without content http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=13#252 - WTF is the first part here? Going on about formatting? YEAH, GREAT POINT! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=14#261 - Filler/useless http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=14#266 - Filler http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=15#293 - LAst part is filler only. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=15#295 - Filler http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=17#334 - Useless http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=17#336 - Useless, keep talking about immaterial things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=20#382 - Stating obvious stuff, as you accused me off. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=20#394 - Filler http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=21#406 - Filler Right, so telling people I'm back from the gym or going to eat dinner is total fluff regurgitating what other people say? Also, apparently you didn't understand what my request was. I didn't ask you to point out every "filler" post of mine, I asked you to point out every "fluffy" one. Also I'd disagree with you on the usefulness of some of the statements you point out. Thanks for vasting my time btw. That is one thing you are good at in this game. And for your analysis after the lynch it is just a quick one, with no real content in it: You are wasting your own time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299955¤tpage=21#403 - Written in a very little methodical way and all you end up with is that you want to pressure three guys. WHAT A GREAT ANALYSIS MAN. *sigh* Did you read it at least? My conclusion is that Blurry's reasons for voting Cookie are shit, because he regurgitated what other people said. My conclusion was that Blurry apologizing himself is odd, and makes him look like a "helpless town", and I don't like that. If you have read carefully, my only conclusion wasn't to pressure the three guys. So now is the time I wil just OMGUS you. I am not saying you are scum, I will just say I think you are bad. And until either you make a real case on me, or I feel the urge to make a case on you I will just ignore you, because you are just one big distraction (well, unless you make more really stupid post involving me that I need to correct). Right, I'm a big distraction. Not the guy who instead of responding to pressure in a straightforward way, goes around making unfounded or false statements and playing like a big child. Also, this is indeed not going fucking anywhere, I don't know why I even bothered in the first place, so I'll just stop for now. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Although I'd like his response to it, maybe on Post-Game (via PM if he wants to) And I'm still waiting for a response from Blurry. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 07 2012 17:19 Blurry wrote: I've been trying to figure out why someone would target Tunkeg rather than someone like Probulous (posted the most analysis and was one of the most assertive players thus far). I think this could potentially tell us certain things. Probulous posted his reads on all the players in the game categorizing them by who he thought was town/neutral/mafia. While this does not make him seem any more scummy. My instinct on this is that a player who is mafia is categorized by him as being town and this cover would be useful to the mafia in some way. My other thought is that Tunkeg was pressuring someone that was mafia in a way that made him the biggest threat. He was pressuring Gonzaw and Cephiro and also did a little bit on Sheth. Since Cephiro was already cast under so much suspicion by Probulous I infer that there is a high chance that either Gonzaw or Sheth, or both are scum and am going to re-read their posts thoroughly. My initial instinct is that Sheth is the more likely candidate as he has literally posted zero analysis and has simply pressured or challenged peoples points rather than helping us weed out scum. This is the biggest pile of WIFOM I've ever seen in my life. You still haven't responded to me, so as soon as you finish "re-reading their posts thoroughly", please post your findings AND respond to my post. I'll wait to see Sheth's response and how he reacts to make my read, although Prob's case makes sense. On January 07 2012 16:40 Probulous wrote: To the rest of the town, please can I have your thoughts on Sheth and Cephiro? I am re-reading the thread over and over again and re-evaluating my positions on people. Null read on Sheth (until now at least), and Town read on Cephiro. Also people, what do we do regarding Xeris/Gretorp? Just wait? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 08 2012 10:19 Probulous wrote: Gonz man, what the hell is this shit? You call others out for wishy-washy play but then post this contortion. You think my case makes sense but Sheth's response will tell you more? If the case is solid, nothing Sheth says should change your mind. He can always cast doubt on what I have written. I could forgive you for that, Ceph's defense for example shows what happens when a townie gets a case brought against him. But what is the null read (until now at least) Is he null or not? You either are waiting for more info (null case) or you think he is mafia (until now case). How can you have both positions in the same sentence?Would you be willing to lynch Sheth? ?? I had a null read on him until you posted your case, in which case I now have a scum read on him. You posted your case on him after you posed that question, so my answer was about what I thought of him at that point in time. I don't get how that could be misinterpreted. And yes, Sheth hasn't really been accused until now, his response can make us change our minds or make us more assured if he's scum. And I think we can notice if he's trying to "cast doubt" on what you've written. However I won't be around to see it. I'm going out now, and tomorrow as soon as I wake up I'll be going out of town for like 1-2 days, so I won't be around until that time. I hope I get back before it's too late on Day 3 though. So fuck Sheth, I was waiting for his response, but I need to make a placeholder vote, and the case against him is the best we have at the moment IMO, considering Blurry is ignoring me and Xeris just disappeared off the face of the Earth. ##Vote: Liquid`Sheth | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Okay people, I'm back but only for 1 hour or less.. I'll try to reread everything that went on as fast as I can... | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Sorry guys, I don't have time, I'm almost on the hour mark and I've barely even finished reading the thread. I'll respond as I see fit though. Also, tomorrow I'll be back earlier (I'll go to the same cyber, for more time if I can), so I'll address everything else there. + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 10:23 Probulous wrote: I think Jitsu was on to something here. He was adamant that Cats was scum and had changed his position on Blurry. If we assume he was sure Cats was scum and believed Blurry is town that leaves one scum in the following list
Here is what he had to say about Xeris and Gretorp A solid null read and his thoughts on Bkrow amounted to Hardly suspicion. So what does this mean? It means taking a good look at Gonz and Cats. WIFOM alert, which is more likely? Scum knew I was iffy about Cats and that Jitsu would be the one pushing his case, so they shot him. Or Jitsu had correctly noticed in Gonz's filter and scum quickly shot him to stop suspicion of Gonz? Or We have no fucking clue and this is a waste of time? Bk, you are in that list and have at least been posting so, what do you make of this? ...WTF is this WIFOM shit? Yes that's a waste of time unless you are backing it up with analysis. And now I was suspicious for wanting to take the WIFOM out of the way early so it doesn't clog up the thread later, sheez... + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 11:58 CatsnHats wrote:@Sheth you're exactly right. I'm ghosting on Prob's analysis of you. Gonzaw ghosted on it too and has already put a placeholder vote on you. I REALLY don't like that. He says that your words in your defense could have an effect on changing his mind, but that he won't be around to see it. WHAT IS THAT? This is a really important time in this game. We really need a lynch on mafia. That doesn't sit well with me. What about the "I'm going away from town" did you not get? Unexpected things IRL happen, I can't choose not to do them. I will come back tomorrow at around 6pm GMT or something, and around 1am GMT of the next day I'll be home so I can pay full attention to this game again. + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 08:48 Cephiro wrote: I am yet not sure what to think of you, but at least you are right in one thing whether you are a townie, or mafia trying to gain town-cred. I'll admit I maybe should have done that, but I didn't want to give the mafia a chance to no-lynch, nor give someone the impression that I was trying to jack the vote towards a no-lynch (pro-mafia play). But today, we lynch scum. Because we're going to lynch Sheth. Once I read the bolded, I knew we were going in the right direction today. Finally more people would realize the killer that hided behind the manner. And once I saw Probu's case of the D2 on Sheth, especially considering he is probably the strongest town read for many. (Which no-one should take for granted!), I got the feeling that today is the day the first scum falls. This is a very weird post for me. You have been trying so hard to provide content and analysis yourself earlier, but now you went from a null read to scum read just because of Probu's post? I admit that Probu posts good and convincing cases, but please people, think for yourselves too! If he's the one controlling the game with his analysis with everyone just jumping on the bandwagon, in the case he is mafia we're fucked. I am not saying he is, I got a town-read on him myself at the moment, but don't take it for granted! Anyway, this post made me more curious, I will have to read through gonzaw's filter again soon. From your response to Probu's analysis about you. We're not acting extra-mean to anyone. Could you provide some back-up for your claims of Cats being townie? All you say is the bolded, which is basically nothing. His posts and what not? But you obviously want to keep pressure on him, when you just said that sort of non-stop pressure almost made a townie suicide? Contradictory. Protection of scumbuddy, failed. No matter how well you know them, I doubt you can know if they are mafia or town by 3-4 pretty much oneliner posts about promising more. Or then you're one heck of a mindreader. I still don't get why you are protecting them so hard. Admittingly it's impossible to make a case on them on anything else than lurking, and if they are townies then they are making the game considerably harder for us :/ Hopefully we'll get replacements soon. A DT for a mafia is a good trade? Certainly not this early in the game. How can you be sure someone is DT if another person would counterclaim? You were fishing for blue roles earlier, are you afraid of the chance a medic could block your night-kills? At this point you seem fairly suspicious of Sheth. Why do you suddenly find him so town? You keep changing your minds on everyone, I just don't understand what the hell is going on in your head. Either you are the most confused player ever, or then you're clever mafia trying to get back in by confusing everyone and trying to get on the right bandwagons in time. I suspect the latter. The lurkers are better targets in your opinion. I admit it's certainly not pro-town play, but considering they are about to get modkilled or replaced, why would you not try to pick out the active scum? Even if they both would be mafia (Which I find very unlikely, and quite sure that's not the case), there would be still one scum remaining among the active players. Go and find that one! Then you talk about how people ghost Probu's analysis, even YOURSELF. But then you are getting suspicious on Gonzaw for doing the same. Do you have enough fingers to point in all those directions? I sure don't. Then you are "not suspecting Probu", but curious about if people are letting him by too easily. Sure, you can ask about it from others, but make a case on it yourself if you think that's what happening. I've seen at least me and Sheth critizise his analysis (admittingly, we were the ones being accused). That's no excuse, even to this point I haven't seen but smaller analysis from you, not a single "full write-up". Too distracted by all the pressure on you? That sure didn't prevent me from trying to catch scum when I was under pressure, even though admittingly delaying it a bit. Post 3. More coming up. For fucks sake. I'm away, I HAD to make a placeholder vote, what the fuck do you want me to do? I can't fucking believe I'm "suspicious" or something because of some shitty WIFOM from Jitsu's death and because I went inactive. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CASE AGAINST ME READ MY FILTER AND DO IT GODDAMMIT!!!!! I won't stand for this WIFOM shit, not at this point of the game. + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 22:40 Blurry wrote: Yes I would, and will. #Vote: Liquid'Sheth As to gonzaw's statement of me simply regurgitating information. For the most part that has been true but I've been going by my gut, which is not something you can post when convincing other people to take your side. I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start but don't have the analysis skills to back it up (I know that will read as scummy but bear with me) and write an informed post as to why. If I don't have the evidence to back up my feelings then there is no point in posting it. Wtf is this? So you won't even attempt to respond to my posts? You say you are going by "your gut"? Wtf? Also, I'll reread that "I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start" thing tomorrow when I check everybody's filter. I'll check the Cat situation too. Also, (maybe I'm late to this but whatever) everybody saying Blurry is town because he bussed Sheth "too early" or something is a fucking useless WIFOMist. Sheth's flip doesn't mean Blurry is town, doesn't mean I'm town, and doesn't mean Prob is town. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Not only was Xeris inactive throughout the whole game, but his replacement is too! /sarcasm For fucks sake, you know what's actually annoying me? That if kronhort survives until LYLO (if we get there), then we are absolutely fucked. Deciding if he's scum or not is basicly the same as tossing a coin in the air. + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 11:49 Probulous wrote: Calm down matey. The only reason people were getting suspicious is because of Jitsu's post. I stand by my read on you based on a few things. The most obvious being you are aggressive and have called people on their shit. Contrary to what others might think, your argument with Tunk makes you look more town than mafia. I see no reason for mafia to call attention to their hit right before the day post. It is just stupidly and unnecessarily putting themselves in the spotlight. As for my WIFOM, I think it is pretty clear that there is no roleblocker, that is all I wanted to gain from it. No need to get all antsy about it. The WIFOM about you was to get people's thoughts on what is more likely. Clearly Cats is far more scummy than you, that is what I was trying to point out. I stand by my Blurry read. You have to make up your mind on limited information, Blurry looks a lot less scummy than Cats. He hasn't said or done much but what he has looks like a newbie town in my eyes. You don't agree, why? You can justify what he has done from both a mafia or town POV, but one is more likely than the other given the reads you have on other people and how they flipped. I don't see how Blurry bussing Sheth so early is more likely than him just being a sheeping town. Finally, anyone with half a brain knew you were away. You had a legitimate reason to put a placeholder vote down, and you placed it on a scum. You had been pushing Cats all game long, as mafia it would have been easier for you to just vote Cats as a placeholder and try to split the vote. In the same manner as Blurry, I think your early vote stands in your favour. *sigh* yeah, I kind of got a little bit carried away there. + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 22:40 Blurry wrote: Yes I would, and will. #Vote: Liquid'Sheth As to gonzaw's statement of me simply regurgitating information. For the most part that has been true but I've been going by my gut, which is not something you can post when convincing other people to take your side. I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start but don't have the analysis skills to back it up (I know that will read as scummy but bear with me) and write an informed post as to why. If I don't have the evidence to back up my feelings then there is no point in posting it. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 08:28 Blurry wrote: 2: Sheth Theres one post by him that caught my attention: This for me could mean one of two things: A. A subtle claim to not being scum based on the logic that Jitsu would know immediately. Or B. I will be able to tell whether or not Jitsu is or is not scum. Other than this he has been aggressive in terms of trying to get people on the defensive (CatsnHats) which I like as holes will show in peoples stories. Right now I'm feeling like he would be town rather than scum but I think time will tell. . + Show Spoiler + On January 07 2012 17:19 Blurry wrote: I've been trying to figure out why someone would target Tunkeg rather than someone like Probulous (posted the most analysis and was one of the most assertive players thus far). I think this could potentially tell us certain things. Probulous posted his reads on all the players in the game categorizing them by who he thought was town/neutral/mafia. While this does not make him seem any more scummy. My instinct on this is that a player who is mafia is categorized by him as being town and this cover would be useful to the mafia in some way. My other thought is that Tunkeg was pressuring someone that was mafia in a way that made him the biggest threat. He was pressuring Gonzaw and Cephiro and also did a little bit on Sheth. Since Cephiro was already cast under so much suspicion by Probulous I infer that there is a high chance that either Gonzaw or Sheth, or both are scum and am going to re-read their posts thoroughly. My initial instinct is that Sheth is the more likely candidate as he has literally posted zero analysis and has simply pressured or challenged peoples points rather than helping us weed out scum. These were the only 2 times you ever mentioned Sheth. You even thought he was more likely town than scum the first time, that's a blatant contradiction of "I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start". So can you tell me wtf this is? You should be lynched just by this alone, it's a blatant lie. And now you are still emulating other people's formatting. Although I'm confused now, I don't know if you were making fun of Prob there or not. I also don't like your "I'm playing from my gut" attitude, I don't like your "I'll emulate other players" attitude either. These make it so easy for you to justify bandwagoning, sheeping, and whatever the hell you want if you are scum, which is what I think you are doing. I also won't dwell into the "it was early to bus him, maybe not" WIFOM. Sheth had already a static vote on him (mine), and 2 players already were intent on lynching him (Prob, Cephiro), that's half the votes needed for a lynch. You don't need more than half a brain to see that he was a very likely lynch candidate by then, so whatever WIFOM regarding that is useless. I also don't get what "town" thing he did by now. + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 12:11 Blurry wrote: I will say this to those that may claim that I have done a similar thing (which I have). I am, as Probulous so eloquently pointed out, a blatant sheep. I go where the grasses are the greenest and if someone has a good argument I believe them W...T...F? You know what does in fact make me more suspicious? The actual fact that Sheth and Blurry barely talked to each other at all This is the only time one of them talked to the other one directly in early game: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 12:22 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I said this because in the last game we played together I was scum and he was town. Thats why its worded that way. Its just a claim that he has recent experience with me and I have with him. Now, after Sheth was pressured to being lynched, he posts this: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 05:29 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Just going to post my thoughts on the others, as I am going to go watch Steelers v Broncos at a friends house soon, and I had some things come up today I didn't expect. 7. Probulous -- Townie at the start. Sooo townie at the start. Has recently started making a few logical mistakes. (Both against myself and Cephiro). Implying that Cephiro is a confirmed townie has me looking at you so much right now, but as of now my brain can't make sense of you. Null 8. Blurry -- Havn't filtered you in depth yet, but can get into basics. This post + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 08:28 Blurry wrote: About me being inactive: Sorry,I've been out all day since I'm on vacation in Montreal, and while it says I'm from Switzerland I recently moved to USA (EST) and have neglected to change my profile because I'm a little bit homesick+lazy. Anyways: back to the game, 1: Cookiemaker AnxiousHippo raised a very good point about Cookiemakers most recent post in his stating that trust has been developing amongst certain townies without providing examples. There was no reason for him to say this other than to try and fluff up his posts. Right now he seems scummy to me. 2: Sheth Theres one post by him that caught my attention: This for me could mean one of two things: A. A subtle claim to not being scum based on the logic that Jitsu would know immediately. Or B. I will be able to tell whether or not Jitsu is or is not scum. Other than this he has been aggressive in terms of trying to get people on the defensive (CatsnHats) which I like as holes will show in peoples stories. Right now I'm feeling like he would be town rather than scum but I think time will tell. 3: AnxiousHippo Cites his inexperience as a way out of having to provide much analysis but also hasn't said anything too scummy. I'm feeling neutral. 4: Cephiro Provided a lot of good points and has contributed a good deal to the discussion. I don't think think Mafia would be leading the discussion like he has been, especially at this level. Definitely leaning towards town on him. 5: Tunkeg Tries to get everybody to contribute which I like. Is very clear in his stance which is another good thing. Leaning towards town on him. 6: Jitsu I'm getting a town vibe from him as well as he asked for someones opinion on himself. This could however be a clever mafia play to try and discover where the holes in his play are. Leaning towards town as he has been pressuring people to contribute. Just shows that you havn't put much time into the game at this point. You proceed to say something here + Show Spoiler + On January 07 2012 17:19 Blurry wrote: I've been trying to figure out why someone would target Tunkeg rather than someone like Probulous (posted the most analysis and was one of the most assertive players thus far). I think this could potentially tell us certain things. Probulous posted his reads on all the players in the game categorizing them by who he thought was town/neutral/mafia. While this does not make him seem any more scummy. My instinct on this is that a player who is mafia is categorized by him as being town and this cover would be useful to the mafia in some way. My other thought is that Tunkeg was pressuring someone that was mafia in a way that made him the biggest threat. He was pressuring Gonzaw and Cephiro and also did a little bit on Sheth. Since Cephiro was already cast under so much suspicion by Probulous I infer that there is a high chance that either Gonzaw or Sheth, or both are scum and am going to re-read their posts thoroughly. My initial instinct is that Sheth is the more likely candidate as he has literally posted zero analysis and has simply pressured or challenged peoples points rather than helping us weed out scum. You assume that mafia targeted Tunkeg for a completely different reason then I believe. You believe its because of his reads on people such as myself / gonzaw and cephiro. You feel like thats why it was him instead of Probulous. I think its just because up to this point Probulous was the most "town" feeling and mafia was worried there was a medic involved. Then you post another bad post here + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 22:40 Blurry wrote: Yes I would, and will. #Vote: Liquid'Sheth As to gonzaw's statement of me simply regurgitating information. For the most part that has been true but I've been going by my gut, which is not something you can post when convincing other people to take your side. I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start but don't have the analysis skills to back it up (I know that will read as scummy but bear with me) and write an informed post as to why. If I don't have the evidence to back up my feelings then there is no point in posting it. Whats up with this? Can you explain what your "gut" is and what its saying. As I think someone already brought up (Jitsu?) is that if you can't explain it in reasoning then its probably not a good reason. You then say "If I don't have evidence to back up my feelings there is no point in posting it". Regarding evidence against me. So you don't have any evidence and just a gut feeling on me and your willing to vote so quickly on this. Just this here should have everyone worried. Aren't you finding it suspicious that these lurkers are coming out of no where and willing to just throw their votes onto me because of a gut feeling? Blurry :From what I can see, Leaning Mafia strongly. 9. Gonzaw -- I don't have time to re-read all of your posts. I will do you and Probulous together hopefuly tonight before the end of the day and if I don't, well I'm sure others will. Based on just what I've seen of your posting you seemed like you were posting a lot of fluf and not really taking too many sides. Then you post a "Placeholder" vote on me even though your not convinced. You don't even wait on me to argue my side at all. You and Blurry seem to both be doing this to me. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence, that you both just have to go and blindly will kill me off, but its so bad. Why are you voting for me if you aren't convinced I'm scum. Just from what I've seen I'll say Town-Scum, but I really need to re-filter you more indepth, so this is it for now. Everyone putting your votes on me, please look into Cephiro, Blurry and Cats/Gonzaw . Those are my four scummiest reads, without knowing more about Xeris/Gretorp. Blurry doesn't even respond to him. Seems like a planned bus to me, just a way for Blurry to gain town cred once Sheth flips. And don't come and tell me this is WIFOM shit or something, if you guys believe Cats is scum too then this has to happen too. In the UG games, there's one thing I do to find scum. I see which players don't even talk to each other when not pressured to. I don't mean talk as in just quoting and saying uninteresting filler stuff. I also don't mean mentioning each other, whether to make them suspicious or defend themselves. I mean talk as in arguing with each other, pressuring each other, etc. I think this happened in the previous Newbie game too. Hell, there's a UG game where I found the entire scum team just by doing this, without any other analysis. I'm pretty convinced that works, even more considerably in a newbie game. It is WIFOM, but shit, it's WIFOM that works, just like the ones in the guides all over this place. If you don't think this holds, then there needs to be other highly incriminating/saving evidence towards it.. ##Vote: Blurry Fuck, I'm already like 2 hours reading the thread, responding and shit. Also, I don't like this Cat bandwagon. It just seems so easy to lynch him. But I'll give my thoughts on that when I come home, I'm way in a hurry right now | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 11 2012 08:18 Probulous wrote: It isn't actually, in his first post he says " Right now I'm feeling like he would be town rather than scum but I think time will tell" which does say he thinks he is more likely town than mafia but doesn't specifically state he is not suspicious of Sheth. I think Cats is more likely town than mafia but that doesn't meant I am not suspicious of him. Even if you disregard the semantics, the question is simple, is this scum motivated? If so how does it support a scum case. My only thinking is that it is an attempt to gain town credit by bussing Sheth early. He would get that credit whether he had been suspicious from the start or not. The "lie" really tells us nothing. There is some stuff here that doesn't say anything then Saying "Right now I'm feeling like he would be town rather than scum" is, firstly, so wishy washy it's not even funny. To say that is a "suspicion from the start", is a HUGE stretch. Like you say, it's such a huge stretch that it can be used to justify a bus. Actually, this convinces me even more he's scum. He just makes a super fluffy read on Sheth, so he can use it later to justify himself. Also, nothing in his read of Sheth implied he's suspicious of him Let's check it out. On January 05 2012 08:28 Blurry wrote: 2: Sheth Theres one post by him that caught my attention: This for me could mean one of two things: A. A subtle claim to not being scum based on the logic that Jitsu would know immediately. Or B. I will be able to tell whether or not Jitsu is or is not scum. Is this suspicion? That's a logical OR; there's no analysis, there's no personal opinion, it's nothing. It's the same as saying "He's either scum or town", it's a tautology that doesn't show anything. Saying that is a "suspicion" is indeed a lie. Other than this he has been aggressive in terms of trying to get people on the defensive (CatsnHats) which I like as holes will show in peoples stories. Where's the suspicion in this? He's defending him for christ's sake, this is the opposite of suspicion. If you take the "Right now, I'm feeling...." line out, what do you think of this "read"? Do you think it's a suspicion or could even be seen as one? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 11 2012 14:01 Probulous wrote: Gonz, reading your case all you have proven is that his play is bad. I highly doubt he would create such a sophisticated plan to make a fluffy case against Sheth and then use that as evidence for towniness if he had to bus Sheth. Why would you assume that? How is it even a "sophisticated plan"? Shit, let's recap the "sophisticated plan": 1)Make a wishy-washy read on one of his scumbuddies 2)When his scumbuddy has a chance to be lynched, bus him 3)As for the reasons for doing it, just say that your previous wishy-washy read was a suspicion on him (1) Isn't even part of any "plan", it's just a regular scum behaviour of "not being sure" about your scumbuddies, in case you need to bus or defend them later on, and so you don't have to pressure them, talk to them, or have anything to do with them in the thread (2)Seems pretty straightforward, I don't need to explain to you why scum would bus each other when one has the chance of being lynched, right? (3)If this is "sophisticated" I'll eat my own ass. It's the easiest way for him to not make an effort in thinking up reasons to bus him. Actually it's stupid too, since eventually someone is bound to reread that and search for that "suspicion from the start" and figure out it's a bunch of fluff. Like I said where is the scum motivation. Tell me a story :p .....what? You want me to "tell you a story"? Do I have to make wild speculations about "what they may have thought" or some shit? What's the point? I am not here to entertain you guys. I won't start my posts with cute images, or format my posts like a book or something, or "tell stories" or whatever you mean. If I do that I waste time doing something unnecessary. Also, what do you mean "where's the scum motivation"? Isn't "be wishy washy about your scumbuddy so you don't pay attention to him, then bus him to gain town cred" enough? Isn't all that sheeping and regurgitation to lynch a townie (cookie/tea) without actually making an effort enough? Isn't all that "I'll emulate how other players post", and "I'm following my gut" to strip away any responsability and pressure from him enough? Your best point to date has been the lack of communication between them. Expand on that for me. Thanks mate, I appreciate your work! I think I expanded enough. I already pointed out almost all communication between them (I may have left some bussing from Sheth out though, but all of that can be generalised with the single post I showed). So, what do I have to "expand"? Why can't you do that on your own? Sorry for the aggresiveness, but....really? Why are you so sure Blurry is town? Also, why don't you let him defend himself? You are acting like his babysitter or something, if he's pressured let him react to it goddammit! Your play has been very weird lately Prob, shit. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:12 Blurry wrote: The idea that me immediately voting for Sheth was somehow a mafia plan to make me innocent in the town's eyes is rather stupid. I am not a good player by any stretch of the imagination so why would he sacrifice himself to try and help make one of the weakest players in the game look more innocent. It was not clear that he was going to be lynched. May I remind you that the vote for him succeeded by just one vote. If I had been scum I would have either feigned inactivity and not voted, or perhaps voted for Cats who was already under a lot of suspicion at that point. Omg lol. So instead of defending yourself against every point of the case against you, you just decide to cling unto WIFOM? lol nice try + Show Spoiler + The idea that me immediately voting for Sheth was somehow a mafia plan to make me innocent in the town's eyes is rather stupid lol no it's not, ever heard of "bussing"? + Show Spoiler + I am not a good player by any stretch of the imagination so why would he sacrifice himself to try and help make one of the weakest players in the game look more innocent You mean, why would Sheth, a scum under A LOT of pressure, who was heading for a lynch, sacrifice 1 vote from his scumbuddy, and bus him so he would make his weak scumbuddy gain town cred so he can try to survive longer? Hmm, let me see, I can't find any reason at all! + Show Spoiler + It was not clear that he was going to be lynched. May I remind you that the vote for him succeeded by just one vote. If I had been scum I would have either feigned inactivity and not voted, or perhaps voted for Cats who was already under a lot of suspicion at that point Great, did Sheth tell you to point this out later if somebody suspected you? This is the shittiest WIFOM ever, just like all the WIFOM you've been pulling out throughout the whole game Here, let me point them out for you: + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 11:18 Blurry wrote: The thing to watch for initially is whether or not a role blocker reveals himself. I doubt a role blocker would do anything so early however as they have no idea who to target and successfully cause some harm. WIFOM + Show Spoiler + On January 07 2012 17:19 Blurry wrote: I've been trying to figure out why someone would target Tunkeg rather than someone like Probulous (posted the most analysis and was one of the most assertive players thus far). I think this could potentially tell us certain things. Probulous posted his reads on all the players in the game categorizing them by who he thought was town/neutral/mafia. While this does not make him seem any more scummy. My instinct on this is that a player who is mafia is categorized by him as being town and this cover would be useful to the mafia in some way. My other thought is that Tunkeg was pressuring someone that was mafia in a way that made him the biggest threat. He was pressuring Gonzaw and Cephiro and also did a little bit on Sheth. Since Cephiro was already cast under so much suspicion by Probulous I infer that there is a high chance that either Gonzaw or Sheth, or both are scum and am going to re-read their posts thoroughly. My initial instinct is that Sheth is the more likely candidate as he has literally posted zero analysis and has simply pressured or challenged peoples points rather than helping us weed out scum. HOLY SHIT ENORMOUS USELESS WIFOM + Show Spoiler + On January 11 2012 07:27 Blurry wrote: There is no way that both Gretorp and Xeris were scum because they were totally inactive and it is doubtful that they would have submitted their night actions. My guess with no evidence to back my claims is that its one of those two plus one of the players that has been more active. More WIFOM. + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 06:12 Blurry wrote: The idea that me immediately voting for Sheth was somehow a mafia plan to make me innocent in the town's eyes is rather stupid. I am not a good player by any stretch of the imagination so why would he sacrifice himself to try and help make one of the weakest players in the game look more innocent. It was not clear that he was going to be lynched. May I remind you that the vote for him succeeded by just one vote. If I had been scum I would have either feigned inactivity and not voted, or perhaps voted for Cats who was already under a lot of suspicion at that point. And here's the epitome of WIFOM too + Show Spoiler + I am not a good player by any stretch of the imagination so why would he sacrifice himself to try and help make one of the weakest players in the game look more innocent Thank you for reminding me of that. + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 00:53 Blurry wrote: Okay, my last post for the day: Staying on CM/Tea as I am still unsure about Cephiro. Other than that, I'm sorry I couldn't contribute more this first day as I am still new to this and am not sure what to look for in terms of reading players but by going over players posts I am getting a good idea and I'm sure my analysis quality will steadily improve over the course of the game. One thing that strikes me looking back at all this is CM voting for CatsinHats. If CM/Tea is indeed scum then I think this provides evidence towards cats not being scum as I dont think CM would have been that meta especially with the holes in his play he has already shown. This can't be assumed however so I would still be suspicious. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 15:32 Blurry wrote: I posted in the same format as Cephiro because I'm new to this and I'm trying to pick up on how this game is played. Thus you will see me emulate some things that other players will do or how they format their analysis. This won't be the first time you will see this. Solid Candidates: Gretorp, Cookiemaker I would probably rather lynch Gretorp because he hasn't said anything To your last point: This is a newbie game, maybe its not obvious. I just want to make sure that people know to claim a RB. You are constantly undermining your own play, saying you are a "weak player"; that you'll "emulate some things other players will do", saying you are "new to this", saying you are "not sure what to look for in terms of reading players", and apologizing yoruself... This is the "newb card" played so straight it hurts.. Of course, you are a "weak player" so we can just ignore you, right? You haven't even responded to any of the other points I made. You are still ignoring me. You have Prob being your babysitter, and nobody's listening to me. You may just think that ignoring me and let town focus on Cats can get you off the hook, since you just have 1 vote on you. But you won't People, it's obvious Blurry is scum, change your vote to him NOW. I'm not sure Cats is scum yet, for a while he's actually contributing, being active, and at least he's fucking trying. We can deal with Cats later, Blurry is far a better lynch, since I'm almost sure he's scum. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 08:31 Blurry wrote: Since I do not think it would matter if I tried to disprove Gonzaw's points, I won't even try: I am the medic I have been healing probulous since Night 1. Do what you will with this information... Wtf is this shit? Just........what? First, does anybody counterclaim? We can't be sure of anything until nobody does. Second, wtf? Let's imagine you are the medic for a second: -You think the best way to deal with the pressure is CLAIMING when you only have 1 VOTE ON YOU!?? Also, everybody is ignoring me, hell even though I wouldn't stop pressuring you, you would have avoided today's lynch anyways, SINCE THERE WAS ONLY 1 HOUR LEFT FOR IT TO END W...T...F? Also, if you are the medic, then that means that you are town, so why on earth wouldn't you respond to pressure? Why wouldn't you respond to the points I made against you? And more importantly, why would I need to make those points in the first place? There is 50% chance there is a medic in this game, you could have easily fake-claimed without having any cc (if there isn't any). This seems unlikely, but my head is full of WTF right now. Until you respond to my points I won't take this into account. SO PLEASE RESPOND TO MY POINTS. Until you do, I'll keep my vote on you, so if you are actually the medic FUCKING DO IT. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 09:33 Probulous wrote: EBWOP: ##Vote Paperscraps Let do this people. I have made up my mind. Make up yours. Gonz, get off Blurry, he isn't getting lynched today But I fucking want answers goddammit!! | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 09:42 Probulous wrote: Gonz case makes the most sense here. Paperscraps play is bad but could be townie. Blurry clearly had a plan all game long but has not been open about it. If Blurry actually wanted us to believe him he would have claimed muched earlier. half an hour before lynch is just not good enough, all it does is create confusion and possibly a no lynch. Vote Blurry. Wait, if my case makes the "most sense"; then why did you defend Blurry against it initially? Also fuck, this is way too unexpected and WE HAVE SO LITTLE TIME. BLURRY; WHY THE FUCK HAVE YOU DONE THIS????? ARGGGG, shit..... | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 09:54 Probulous wrote: I would rather no lynch than lynch a townie. There is no reason for Blurry to lie. Saving your skin by claiming only works when you claim early. I want him lynched but if that can't happen, then I will vote Paperscraps. Gonz, what is your take on this? Like I said, until Blurry doesn't respond to me I won't take the medic claim into account. Fucking Blurry, if he's the actual medic this is all his fault. He fucking claims and then DISAPPEARS. FUCK If we don't lynch him, then I don't know who the fuck to lynch. It's too late anyways. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 09:59 Probulous wrote: Don't worry Gonz, he will flip red and I will bow before you. This one is yours! It better fucking be I'll go take a shower, and come after the flip... | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
So 1 hour before the lynch YOU CLAIM EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE NOT BEING LYNCHED!!!??? THEN YOU FUCKING GO TO "DINNER" AND FORGET ABOUT WHAT YOU'VE JUST DONE!!!!???? Also, Xeris was green all along??? FUkcing shitl And we are at LYLO tomorrow NO MATTER WHAT!?????? ARGGGGGH, I'M SO FUCKING PISSED RIGHT NOW!!!! | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 10:36 Probulous wrote: It wasn't a good idea because Blurry actually was a medic. Mafia screwed us over from the start and I overthought things. I agree with Cats on Paperscraps. He gave up and then Gonz comes roaring in with his case on Blurry. The fact that Jitsu was suspicious about Gonz also makes Gonz look bad. Blurry really screwed us by claiming at the most retarded time. The way I see it, if Cats is town then the mafia are Gonz and Paperscraps. I am going to look into Gonz' s filter and do the same thing he did to Blurry. See who has been talking to and why. Who had he avoided and why did he tunnel him so early. It is not like other people's play was much better. You are still caught up in that Jitsu WIFOM shit I see, for fucks sake.. Also NOW you are going to look into my filter? For fucks sake can people please stop doing this? Everybody's "Oh, I'll look gonz filter", "Oh, the dead guy said he was going to look at gonz's filter". It's annoying as fuck. If you are going to read my filter DON'T FUCKING ANNOUNCE IT LIKE IT'S THE MTV AWARDS OR SOME SHIT, JUST FUCKING DO IT I am going to look into Gonz' s filter and do the same thing he did to Blurry. See who has been talking to and why. Who had he avoided and why did he tunnel him so early. It is not like other people's play was much better. Yes you should, that's the reason I posted that in the first place, SO PEOPLE WOULD FUCKING USE IT!!!! And you should use it with every other player as well, and every other player should use it with you and everybody else... For fucks sake... | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 12 2012 11:11 Probulous wrote: Alright mate, calm down. You tunnelled Blurry from the start, any thoughts on other people? Shouting and writing page long rants help no-one. It makes it hard to read and hard to find what you're actually trying to say. You can't deny that the fact Jistu thought you had something interesting in your filter has no relevance when the one case you have been pushing all game turns out to be our medic. Everyone should be under suspicion so why get all arced up about it? Honestly it just makes you look worse. Ranting does not help us find scum and it doesn't exonerate you. So take a chill pill, the game is not lost, we lynch scum tomorrow and we are looking much better. *sigh* I was fairly sure Blurry was scum, and had hoped Xeris would flip red too, I didn't pay much attention to everybody else by that point. Fuck, now I need to reread everything *sigh* Also, that whole filter thing does indeed annoy me. And Jitsu was fucking stupid for not posting his thoughts before the night ended. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
We are at LYLO tomorrow for fucks sake!! Okay Paperscraps, I found your "read" on Blurry odd as hell. Here are all the times you mention Blurry: + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 09:39 Paperscraps wrote:Blurry Scum 1. + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 22:40 Blurry wrote: Yes I would, and will. #Vote: Liquid'Sheth As to gonzaw's statement of me simply regurgitating information. For the most part that has been true but I've been going by my gut, which is not something you can post when convincing other people to take your side. I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start but don't have the analysis skills to back it up (I know that will read as scummy but bear with me) and write an informed post as to why. If I don't have the evidence to back up my feelings then there is no point in posting it. Either Blurry is trying to bus his mafia buddy, to alleviate further pressure from himself or has great gut instincts. I am leaning more toward the former, but he did make somewhat of a case about Sheth just pressuring and not weeding out scum. Read through his filter, something just doesn't feel right about him. I am interested in what his response will be. Okay, so you start right off thinking Blurry is scum. However you justify it by your "leaning more towards the former" on a WIFOM situation, and the "something just doesn't feel right about him" wishy washiness. + Show Spoiler + Blurry doesn't agree to vote up Sheth until you ask him if he will. All his posts previous to that have no read on Sheth or say he he may be slightly town. I guess you are right that it is stupid to jump from Cats to Sheth, but you, one of the best readers in this game, think he is town now. Maybe that is what he wanted to happen. I still think he is scummy. Okay, that is a good reason though, which is what I stated earlier. + Show Spoiler + I am still leaning toward scum on Blurry as well. + Show Spoiler + @Prob: Yeah I can agree with all of this. Right now Cats>Blurry, due to the death of Jitsu and re-reading the filters of Jitsu, Cats and Sheth. Now suddenly you focus on Cats instead of Blurry just because of Jitsu's death and filter. What made you think Blurry was less scum than Cats? Why didn't you pursue Blurry more? + Show Spoiler + I still am not quite sure about Blurry, he hasn't really done anything to justify himself as of yet. Also your sudden change of heart about him isn't helping that either, because you are the scummiest read town has at the moment. "I still am not quite sure about Blurry"? Didn't you say he was scum before? You even put Blurry in the "Cats>Blurry" scum-o-meter. You also say he hasn't done anything to justify himself as of yet, and instead of convincing you he's scum, it convinces you that you are not sure? That doesn't make any sense. + Show Spoiler + 4.Basically this all sums up to a redirection or deflection of scrutiny that is on you Cats and Blurry. I am positive that Cats in scum now, because he is scared that I suspect him of it and now gives some pretty trivial/wrong accusations against me. Sounds like he is getting desperate. This also further makes Blurry look bad. All of a sudden Blurry is clean in your eyes? or maybe he is your scum buddy! I am guessing that latter. I bet this was your plan for the whole day to vote up Blurry, then have some sudden revelation and vote up a townie who isn't even responsible for half of his time in the game yet. Now instead of "not being sure about Blurry" you still think he's scummy. But you don't outright say it. You say "this also further makes Blurry look bad" and "maybe he is your scumbuddy! I am guessing that latter" You are implying that if Cats is scum, then Blurry may be too. You are not saying Blurry is scum, you are just casting suspicion on him by your tunneling of Cats + Show Spoiler + Blurry slightly scummy(this depending on the current lynch of Cats). Cats strong scum read. That leaves me as well, but I don't really know how the majority read me yet. Blurry voting up Cats could be his redemption though. So Blurry voting up Cats is his redemption? What? + Show Spoiler + As for your analysis of Blurry: I can actually agree with this. I wish he would post more. He has you pegged as scum, so that makes him a little less noob though, haha. 3. Blurry does call out Sheth. I skipped over that because he does it in a shy way though and never follows through with analysis. "He has you pegged as scum, so that makes him a little less noob though, haha." What? So you just forget about Blurry being scum because of that? + Show Spoiler + Lynching Cats or Xeris is win-win for me. And here you never mention Blurry either, even though you had him as "scum" for a long time. You basicly forget about him, even though he did almost nothing, and there was a case and pressure against him. And what was that constant change of opinion on Blurry? First you thought he was scum. Then you weren't sure. Then you thought he was Cat's scumbuddy, but then stopped thinking he was scum. And you gave almost no reason for these change of opinions. Also, if you thought Blurry was scum, why did you ignore my case against him? This I find odd as hell. It looks like you wanted to make Blurry suspicious but didn't want to actually make a case or anything against him on your own, nor you wanted to sheep other people's cases either. If you thought he was scum, then surely you must have paid attention to my case, but you never mentioned it in the slightest Also: + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 13:54 Paperscraps wrote: Just got back from school. Wow oh wow at what happened. Dang I wish Blurry didn't make a huge blunder like that. Town is in bad shape. Seems like Cats and Prob or Gonz are mafia. Will be interesting to see who they target tonight. If Prob dies, then it is Cats and Gonz If Gonz dies, then it is Cats and Prob If I die, which I won't think will happen due to people being suspicious of me, then I don't know who the last mafia is. What is this? You just assume both Cephiro and BK are town? And you don't give any reasons for it? Also Prob, I'm reading your filter and I'm finding some odd stuff. + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 09:17 Probulous wrote: Whilst this claim is somewhat unexpected, it doesn't really change our vote today. I think it unlikely that blurry was going to get lynched and we can let the mafia deal with him tonight. Either he protects me tonight and I survive, or mafia target him and I surive. I die, you lynch him. If he flips blue we can take a look at people targeting him if he survives he has a lot of explaining to do. Cats, this is just so wrong I don't know what to make of it. A medic saves people from a night kill, not the lynch  + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 09:42 Probulous wrote: Gonz case makes the most sense here. Paperscraps play is bad but could be townie. Blurry clearly had a plan all game long but has not been open about it. If Blurry actually wanted us to believe him he would have claimed muched earlier. half an hour before lynch is just not good enough, all it does is create confusion and possibly a no lynch. Vote Blurry. I pointed this out before, and everybody ignored it, so I will point it out again: Wtf? You first started saying that Blurry was likely a townie with bad play, then played devil's advocate and defended him from my case. Then you backed out. Then Blurry claims, and you basicly ignore it, I suppose you still had a town or null read on him at that point. Then wtf? You suddenly think he's scum after "thinking this through". This doesn't make any sense. You also say "my case makes sense", even though you defended him from my case previously! Wtf? If you were scum it would be easy to figure out "Hey, I can get the medic lynched!", so why the fuck did you do this? + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 10:36 Probulous wrote: It wasn't a good idea because Blurry actually was a medic. Mafia screwed us over from the start and I overthought things. I agree with Cats on Paperscraps. He gave up and then Gonz comes roaring in with his case on Blurry. The fact that Jitsu was suspicious about Gonz also makes Gonz look bad. Blurry really screwed us by claiming at the most retarded time. The way I see it, if Cats is town then the mafia are Gonz and Paperscraps. I am going to look into Gonz' s filter and do the same thing he did to Blurry. See who has been talking to and why. Who had he avoided and why did he tunnel him so early. It is not like other people's play was much better. I don't like this You are saying things like "this makes gonz look bad" and obviously the "I'll read his filter". You are clinging to the Jitsu WIFOM yourself, ever since Jitsu died, even though you had said this earlier: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 12:33 Probulous wrote:I like you WIFOM is bad, yes what I wrote was WIFOM but it was hardly necessary to the point I was making. I do not believe that all mafia are lurking, sure people can vote them, I won't be one of them. But I concede your point about me WIFOming. I won't do it again. Discussing it helps no-one. If we have a situation where this comes up, for example people claiming, we discuss it then. Not now. It clogs up an already busy thread. I am not a smurf, so don't insinuate that I am. If people think I am dangerous, great. Try and be dangerous too. I don't want to be the only one pushing my reads hard. If you find someone suspicious, go after them hammer and tongs. + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 11:11 Probulous wrote: Alright mate, calm down. You tunnelled Blurry from the start, any thoughts on other people? Shouting and writing page long rants help no-one. It makes it hard to read and hard to find what you're actually trying to say. You can't deny that the fact Jistu thought you had something interesting in your filter has no relevance when the one case you have been pushing all game turns out to be our medic. Everyone should be under suspicion so why get all arced up about it? Honestly it just makes you look worse. Ranting does not help us find scum and it doesn't exonerate you. So take a chill pill, the game is not lost, we lynch scum tomorrow and we are looking much better. You are saying I'm suspicious because I was pushing "all game" (it was only Day 3) for our medic... How the fuck was I supposed to know he was our medic? What does his role have anything to do with being suspicious of me? + Show Spoiler + On January 07 2012 09:05 Probulous wrote: Jitsu, Tunk, enough with the back and forth. It should be pretty clear you are both town to anyone paying attention. Don't waste your time arguing over a single badly worded post. You both voted for AKCT before anyone else, that should be enough to ensure that you both did not jump on the wagon. You started it. Save your analysis for people who are possibly scum. This is just spamming the thread and making it difficult to spot other people's posts. + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 10:19 Probulous wrote: Gonz man, what the hell is this shit? You call others out for wishy-washy play but then post this contortion. You think my case makes sense but Sheth's response will tell you more? If the case is solid, nothing Sheth says should change your mind. He can always cast doubt on what I have written. I could forgive you for that, Ceph's defense for example shows what happens when a townie gets a case brought against him. But what is the null read (until now at least) Is he null or not? You either are waiting for more info (null case) or you think he is mafia (until now case). How can you have both positions in the same sentence?Would you be willing to lynch Sheth? I find this odd because it's the exact same thing you were doing there. I find this odd as hell. Every time you analysed other players, you analised behaviours, their reasoning for voting. You analised how they defended themselves, if they were inconsistent, etc.. You are making me look suspicious, but you are not using any of your usual scumhunting on me. You were saying (or implying) I'm suspicious because of some bad wording I made before, even though you stated before that clnging on bad wording and stuff was useless. You are saying I'm suspicious just because I pushed our medic, and just that. You never analised my reasoning like you did with other players. You are saying I'm suspicious because apparently Jitsu found something suspicious about me before I died, which is total useless WIFOM which you specifically said you wouldn't use in the future This is so full of shit. + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 10:16 Probulous wrote: Well shit. Here is who we have left
With two mafia somewhere in there. I know I am not mafia and pretty certain on BK being town. Given Cephiro was the one to hammer the vote that gives me two mafia in Gonz, Cats or Paperscraps. You are certain on BK being town? I don't think you ever mentioned that before. You just said that BK not caring about other people's opinion and posting habits made you thought he was town. But what makes you certain he is? I remember you being uncertain about Hippo before he was replaced, so what did BK do to make you think "you are pretty certain he's town"? People, there are no "confirmed townies" here, nor Prob, nor Cephiro, nor BK. SO stop fucking assume they are, analyse everybody, pressure everybody, and most of all be skeptical about everybody. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:49 Probulous wrote: Here I made a simple comment that if someone has been roleblocked, they should claim. Gonzaw points out that the mafia could do this as well which will fuck us up. Any information for town is good, look what happened last yesterday when Blurry claimed late. We have a lot more information now than before he claimed. With enough time claims can be verified. Gonz here seems to be suggesting no-one claim when they are roleblocked which keeps town in the dark. Wtf is this shit? Gonz here seems to be suggesting no-one claim when they are roleblocked which keeps town in the dark. I can't fucking believe you could actually think that. THAT'S NOT WHAT I WAS SUGGESTING AND YOU KNOW IT. Knowing that Blurry actually was the medic makes this a particularly stark breadcrumb from him. Cephiro congrats on picking that up, I should have listened to you. But I want to point out how useless WIFOM discussions are in the early game. You have zero information to work with and so cannot make reasonable assumptions. All WIFOM does at this point is inflate your post count and clog up the thread. It makes it hard to find out anything because people are discussing stuff which has no bearing on the game. Guess what? WIFOM discussions in the early game are not useless... Like I said, discussing whether someone will claim RBed or something on late game is useless. Just like you did from Day 3 onwards. Note so far Gonz hasn’t actually targeted anyone for analysis. He writes massive posts with lots of white space but doesn’t really say much. Below is his first attempt at analysis It's the fucking beginning of fucking Day 1, what the fuck did you expect? Fluff and filler. This is not pressure, this is pointing out obvious stuff without following through. How is it not pressure? If you think that's fluff and filler it's your own fucking fault. I mean "trusting" people is suddenly a scumslip? It isn't aggressive and doesn't force responses. Then comes his vote For now I'll pressure vote Xeris to come here and post his thoughts, but if we have nothing to go on by the time the day ends I'll vote for you Nice way to undermine the value of your vote. Look at the blatant contradiction to what he said on the previous page At least it will guarantee they will not remain inactive the whole day, since if they do they get lynched. Nice way to not even fucking read! The rest of his analysis has him pointing out stuff about Cats and Cookie’s play but again he isn’t aggressive. He doesn’t explain how this makes them mafia or why it isn’t just a newbie mistake. In fact he mentioned Gretorp, Xeris, Cats and Cookie as scummy but voted for Xeris with a “pressure” vote which he himself says does nothing. He then gets into a discussion with Xeris about Random Voting for some reason. There is some back and forth with Cats and stuff about timezones. There are a lot of posts but not much substance. What is this? You are just retelling what I did? What the fuck is the point of that? Of course there is no substance in the RNG and the timezone argument, what the hell do you expect there? I said so myself the RNG discussion should just be left for Post-game, it's not my fault Jitsu got caught up with it. Then straight after my case on Cookie, Cats and Cephiro he post this long thing Note that he had mentioned Cookie’s stuff earlier but never called him out on it. Then my case comes up and bam he is scum. His reasoning is that Cookie made a big “read” on who is town? As he says your role is to find scum, well Gonz at this point you had not found anyone except Xeris. A lurker who hadn’t posted anything of note. He then gets on Cookie’s case because Cookie trusts people. How are these two things, finding townies and trusting people, a mafia trait? Sure they are not the best townie play but they are hardly pushing a scum agenda. They are pushing for a miss-lynch. What? Are you twisting my words here? Of course finding townies and trusting people are mafia traits on themselves, hell, shouldn't that be obvious since a fucking townie did those? The point is that mafia are likely to do that too, they want to contribute without appearing to do so and want to latch to other townies. "Finding townies" and "Trusting" fall under those two. Also, again you are twisting my words. I never said the only reason for FoSing Cookie was that read, hell I was pressuring him before with that "vote" thing, and I can still read what other people find about him. He calls out Blurry for standing by his insistence that people claim when they are roleblocked, saying it should be obvious. This is a blatant contradiction from his earlier stance on the issue. Some more WIFOM stuff, a discussion about Smurfs and some back and forth with me about what a lynch says about someone. It's not a fucking contradiction, wtf are you talking about? You are doing that "nitpicking over bad wording" thing fucking again. Some more WIFOM stuff, a discussion about Smurfs and some back and forth with me about what a lynch says about someone. Again, wtf is this? You are just telling what I was doing? What's the fucking point of that? Note that Sheth’s point is that if someone claims a roleblock, then there is likely to be a medic or DT. Mafia have not roleblocked all game, I believe this was their plan from the start. Hence why Gonz points outs the WIFOM to Blurry and why Sheth was so keen to talk about roleblocking and blue roles. In particular the DT. Gonz defends him here as talking to the DT. This post was scummy as hell to me because there was no reason for Sheth to be talking about the DT. We had decided that before, but instead he tries to talk directly to them giving them misinformation. He says that if there is a roleblock then the DT knows there is a medic. Well as per previous discussions this is all WIFOM because scum could claim a roleblock. Gonz was the one to point that out but here he defends Sheth. I misread Sheth’s post but upon rereading it looks worse. The fact that Gonz was so quick to defend him makes him scum in my eyes. Gonz doesn’t really change his style for the rest of the game. He writes these massive posts with very little content. You made a mistake there, and I corrected it. I didn't fucking know Sheth was scum at that point. I just saw you misreading and nitpicking someones post wrongly. Also he was speculating if someone was RBed at night, not if someone claimed RBed! Those are 2 fucking different things. I noticed that and corrected it, what's so fucking wrong? The fact that Gonz was so quick to defend him makes him scum in my eyes. ?? wtf is this shit? He writes these massive posts with very little content. What? You are just being like Tunk here from before, you are being fucking obtuse and making unfounded statements. Voting analysis Gonz first vote for a AKCT was because Cookie was scum. His reasons as pointed out were that Cookie was finding townies and trusted people. He never presented an updated case on Cookie. He called him out on small things but never presented a case that shows the scum agenda behind Cookie’s actions. His response on when Cookie flipped town What? Do I have to make a gigantic post quoting every single post from everybody, puting images and stuff to make you happy? Such surprise! ??? Are you fucking serious? He then immediately jump onto Blurry. Now think for a second, we just lynched someone who was obvious a newb town. Right, because you thought so too at that point :rolleyes: We lynched him because his play was wishy-washy and it made him look like scum. So what does Gonz do, he jumps on a new candidate which looks exactly like AKCT. This is fucking His suspicions are based on actions which were identical to Cookies. Then he gets into a huge argument with Tunk about stupid stuff which I still don’t understand. Tunk rightly points out that Gonz is being distracting. I stupidly assume mafia would not put themselves in the spotlight like this by arguing with their night kill right before the day post. It is bad WIFOM and I shouldn’t have done that. Again it looks like Gonz is being an aggressive poster trying to catch people but in reality he pulls Tunk up on stupid stuff. It was clear that Tunk was town the same for Jitsu. But earlier he called Jitsu out for supposedly claiming to be scum. This whole episode just reeks of looking like contributing without contributing. Are you fucking kidding me? Blurry's actions were identical to Cookies? What is that shit that couldnt' be further from the truth. Whilst at the same time calling out Blurry on his WIFOM. The irony that Gonz is apparently the king of WIFOM but he finds Blurry’s WIFOM a scum tell? Then comes his massive rant after Jitsu’s mentions him before his death. You are fucking twisting my words again goddamit! This doesn’t say anything except more crap about Blurry. As far I can tell he has no case against Blurry. Everything used to describe Blurry’s play could be used to describe Cats’ play. Hel Gonz was the king of WIFOM and he hasn’t explained how WIFOM at this point of the game is bad. It is certainly better now than in the early days. At least now we have some information to go off. Then comes his vote for Blurry which I have responded to. The only thing that is of note is that Blurry hardly corresponded with Sheth. Of course he hardly corresponded with anyone so that doesn’t really mean anything. But Gonz goes balls to wall on Blurry. I point out that Blurry would have had to bus Sheth very early for his case to make sense and given Blurry’s play it seems to sophisticated. Of course Gonz points out that the plan is pretty simple. He knows because that is exactly what he did. Blurry had no shown high quality play all game. He hadn’t provided any reads and was waffling a lot, Gonz however has shown he is willing to make risky decisions. He is willing to put himself out there. Thus I think it highly likely he would do something like bus Sheth. Especially since he was already seen as town. He then attacks me for defending Blurry. I stupidly (sorry Blurry I was bad yesterday) back down. If I believe someone is town then I should defend them. Hell if you think someone is mafia you should attack but let others counter your arguments. Only mafia know for sure if someone is town. Gonz’s insistence that Blurry defend himself only makes sense from a mafia point of view. A town’s person wants to know where he is wrong. He cannot be certain, but Gonz doesn’t want counter arguments. I fucking already explained why WIFOM at late game is bad. And you are lying when you say Blurry's play was the same as Cats and Cookie, what the fuck are you on? You also didn't fucking respond to the points I made before, not to that Blurry shit you pulled. You are nitpicking my posts, you are creating "scenarios" regarging a Sheth bus and that "defence" and that setup thing. What the fuck? If you survive tonight then I'll be mostly sure you are scum, and you were trying to make me "suspicious" all long with the WIFOM shit and nitpicking, even if you said you thought I was as a confirmed townie to you | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
"Of course finding townies and trusting people are mafia traits on themselves," Should be "Of course finding townies and trusting people are NOT mafia traits on themselves," Fucking I can't edit | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 13 2012 10:03 Probulous wrote: Gonzaw, please leave the anger and swearing and vengeful wrath at home. It doesn't help us out at all. It just makes it hard to read what you are trying to say. I get pissed when people say stupid stuff, what can I do? On January 13 2012 10:02 CatsnHats wrote: Gonzaw never posts anything of substance. Just look at his defense post above. If you even FOS him a little bit, he goes into WTF fuck fuck fuck are you kidding me? mode. All of his post are just little incredulous statements that mean nothing followed by a question mark. Thank you for your sheeping! "All his posts are just little incredulous statements" "Gonzaw never posts anything of substance" You better back that up, I'm expecting your response if both of us are alive tonight. Hell, even if I die you should post that response too | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 13 2012 10:14 Probulous wrote: Gonz, your thoughts on my claim? Until nobody counterclaims I won't be sure, specially if nobody claims RB tomorrow. Actually, if there is no RB tomorrow, then you fake-clamiing right now is totally stupid if you were scum, since you would get caught. If there is a RB, then the real DT would counterclaim... Maybe if the DT is Paper/Cats, you could get a mislynch At least this makes me sure there is a RBer, if not this would be the most stupid fake-claim ever. Wait, maybe your scumbuddy could fake-claim RB... Still, if that happens we would have the 2 scums pegged down, so it still would be stupid. If you are the DT, then well, at least you claimed at the right time (right in the deadline). However, I find it weird that you didn't play like a "blue" instinctly plays, like I read on Ver's Guide. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 13 2012 10:24 CatsnHats wrote: Basically you're saying, "You didn't play detective the way I wanted you too, because I'm mafia and it made it hard for me to be sure that you were a blue." No I'm fucking not, I'm saying that's a reason why I'm not 100% sure on his claim | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Okay people, we need to get scum today no matter what. I'm being unsure at the moment though. Although now that we have less players, I'm pretty sure Paper is scum. Cats, I want your response. I'll check Cephiro's fliter too, everybody's been going about how he's "confirmed town", by Prob and others, and that is dangerous. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:11 CatsnHats wrote:He hasn't really posted much since, trying to fly under the radar if you ask me. Him sheeping against Blurry makes him look pretty bad after the fact too. I don't have an official write up on Gonzaw yet, but I think we should lynch Paperscraps first because he is the safer of the two options in my eyes. That way we can extend the game another day and you/bkrow can make more reads on Gonzaw and me to make up your minds between the two of us. What? Are you kidding me? You are just sheeping Prob again? On January 14 2012 02:13 CatsnHats wrote: That is 2 days in between most of those posts. 2 days is ALOT of posts and opportunities to make reads, especially for someone like Gonzaw who hasn't made a glaring mistake to completely change town sentiment on him. The reason I kept changing was his relentless aggression and cursing in his defense of himself. It kept throwing me off. I think he is mafia now though, and if we lynch him and he flips red, it shouldn't matter that I thought he was town in the early game, when reads are so difficult to make. You are also getting on to me for my posting before the lynch and nightkill posts. You say they are filler. They may look like that now, but the hour before each of those events was a flurry of posting. If you think I'm scum because I posted a lot during the most stressful period of the game to date, then so be it. On January 13 2012 10:02 CatsnHats wrote: Gonzaw never posts anything of substance. Just look at his defense post above. If you even FOS him a little bit, he goes into WTF fuck fuck fuck are you kidding me? mode. All of his post are just little incredulous statements that mean nothing followed by a question mark. Oh right, that was the reason /sarcasm You didn't even respond to that post I made. Good job trying to get everybody to ignore that, but I won't. And you know why I'm so angry at Prob's case? Because it's full of WIFOM, nitpicking of wording, logical fallacies, strawman and confirmation bias it's not funny!!! Let's see Prob's "thought process" here: -Okay, I'm DT, and I checked BK and came back town, therefore he's town I assume Cats and Cephiro are town. Therefore gonz and Paper are scum. Q.E.D......wait shit, I have to make a case against him now...hmmm what to do? Oh, I'll just quote every post of his and "tell a story" about how he posted from a mafia perspective, that will work. That's fucking confirmation bias, which makes all of his case fucking wrong. You know why? Because I'm town. Now why would that be possible? Because he fucked up by assuming both of you (Ceph and Cats) were town. Also, you are indeed sheeping Prob, and have been doing it since the beginning of the game. Last day I also agreed with Prob that your game was improving, you were active and such. But no, last night your game has gone to worse so bad it's not funny. Your blatant sheeping with Prob against someone you weren't suspicious of before using a shitty case, makes you look SO bad, I'm actually thinking you are scum too. Also, now that you think Prob is so "awesome" and has "awesome reads", let me tell you something about Prob: How many "scum reads" did he make before mine? 4: Cats, Ceph, Cookie and Sheth From Prob's POV (where he assumes both Cats and Ceph are town), then that means he got 3 out of 4 reads absolutely wrong! But "well" you say, "at least he got the Sheth read right , right?" Yeah, but why was that? Oh yeah, HE GOT A FUCKING SCUM CHECK FROM SHETH If Prob wasn't a DT, I'm sure he would have still thought Sheth was "null" and would have never made that case against him. Then Prob makes useless assumptions, that both of you and Ceph are town. WHEN WE ARE AT FUCKING LYLO. I fucking told him there are no confirmed townies (well, apart from BK at least), and he was so stubborn that he said "oh, you need to take some risks and find out who's town to weed out scum" or some shit. Guess what? That risk will lose you the game because everybody is blatantly sheeping you! Thank you Prob! For fucks sake, everybody thinks Prob's game is "so good", when it was actually shit. Remember, HE GOT OUR FUCKING MEDIC LYNCHED. AND YOU STILL SHEEP HIM. WITHOUT ANY OTHER REASONS. Wait.... Nobody claimed RBed? ??? what? Omg this is so fucking stupid lol When Blurry flipped, SCUM KNEW THERE WAS A DT. And they didn't use their RB ability to try and block him? Are you kidding me? Scum must be so stupid, hahaa Maybe they even forgot they had a RBer lol On January 13 2012 16:06 Paperscraps wrote:I agree that this was all speculation, I will leave out wishy washy remarks in the future. Right, so leaving them out in the future justifies you using them before. /sarcasm I was thinking that Cats was much more probable than Blurry first off. After reading through Blurry's filter, he just seemed more inexperienced and more town. Probulous also thinking Blurry being town weighed a lot with me, because probulous had good reads and analysis thus far. Well, what a coincidence, you are sheeping Prob too. I should have made it clear that the general census of the town leaning towards Blurry being innocent was swaying what I was thinking about him. I kept linking Blurry with Sheth. Blurry somewhat called Sheth out early on, but never followed up later. This was probably the main reason that I thought Blurry was scum. Prob and the rest of town convinced me otherwise. Even Cats started to convince me that Blurry was town. ?? I should have made it clear that the general census of the town leaning towards Blurry being innocent was swaying what I was thinking about him lol "Town was thinking that Blurry was town, therefore I should change my views against him because if I'm still suspicious of him I will look bad" I was thinking that Cats is mafia, so if Blurry voted up Cats then that would mean that Blurry would indeed be town. So you relied your analysis on Blurry on WIFOM? Are you fucking kidding me? Not just because of that, but also in general the town was swaying more towards Blurry being town. Blurry made a decent case against Cats. I didn't forget about Blurry being scum, but rather Blurry was lower on my list. I was thinking Cats would be a safer bet. Again you are using the same "I was sheeping town" response? You said "Even Cats started to convince me that Blurry was town", but you said "I didn't forget about Blurry being scum"? What? He was on you "scum list" (albeit lower) but you were beginning to think he was town? The constant change of opinions is due to getting caught up with the game, re-reading peoples filters and the general feeling of the town. Thinking he was Cats' scum buddy, was just hypothetical. I didn't ignore your case against Blurry. I just didn't find it very strong. I think the fact that Sheth and Blurry didn't talk much was due to Blurry being inexperienced plain and simple. I don't know why I have to mention other peoples arguments against people, when I make my own. That is unreasonable. Right, why would you even address an incriminating case against Blurry when you were thinking he was scum? Oh yeah I know, so you could continue sheeping town and not look bad. It is not so much that I am assuming people are town, but rather that I thought Cats and you were more probable to be scum than others at the time in such a situation. You forgot to say that "we were more probable" when you blatantly said who would be scum when Prob died. Pretty harsh thing to say. Making a case for someone being town is just as effective as making a case for someone being scum. Scum are the people that don't want others to know who town are. Are you kidding me? Are you really accusing me by defending Cookie's actions? Gonzaw then proceeds to vote up CM. He doesn't provide any real evidence against CM. ?? Lol you didn't even bother reading my filter. I don't have to give a detailed summary of why I think someone is scum dammit! I already pressured Cookie, found his behaviour scummy, saw as he didn't respond and thought that was the best option. You could have known that if you had read my filter Gonzaws sticks with his vendetta against CM(AKCT), with no real evidence. Thank you for ignoring my response to AKCT too! Gonzaw is trying to cast suspicion on to Blurry. He knows that the mafia isn't going to use their role blocker, so that the town is at a disadvantage. This very reasoning lead us to the mis-lynch of Blurry. Oh the irony What? I was pressuring him because do you know how easy is for scum to say "Oh, if someone is RBed they should claim" "Oh, if you are a vet and you were hit you should claim" and dwell on that so they appear like they are contributing? This is the same thing Sheth did. He gave a pep talk to Cats to not throw the game. You mean the same thing Prob, your magestical messiah did. Also, do you think it was wrong for me to do that? You are just desperately going through my filter taking whatever you can to paint me suspicious. But of course, what else can you do? From your "POV" I HAVE to be scum, right? Gonzaw claims that Blurry's reasons for voting up CM(AKCT) are bad. Yet, Gonzaw claims that Blurry's reason were part of the reasons why he voted up CM(AKCT). Sounds like a contradiction to me. HAHAHA HAHAHAHA OMG, this is so fucking terrible it's funny. Way to use a strawman buddy. lol 1-For previous reasons of certain players That fucking means that the player that voted for CM/AKCT had previous reasons, not that the reasons of those players were the same as mine. Really, there is no way that could be misunderstood. Lol, but good try, scum using strawmans confuses other townies from making good reads, good try indeed. Then, Gonzaw sheeps/bandwagons(whatever you want to call it) with Prob in the lynching of Sheth. He doesn't provide any analysis of Sheth and says he had a null reason of him up until this point. Of course we know now that Prob knew for a fact that Sheth was mafia, but at the time no one knew this. Then he just disappears and leaves his scum buddy to die, so he doesn't have to provide any reasoning to his vote. Gonzaw gets angry that Cehpiro called him out for him voting up Sheth with no analysis, yet Gonzaw rebukes other players for doing the same thing. Gonzaw responds harshly saying that people shouldn't be suspicious of him just, because of some WIFOM Jitsu made Omg, you are still dwelling on that? IT WAS ALREADY FUCKING ADDRESSED IF YOU HAD READ MY FILTER AND THE THREAD YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN. Let me repeat it for you if you don't remember: I was away from town, I had no fucking internet access What? Are you saying I lied? Do you want me to send fucking pictures and witness reports (from my family) to prove you wrong? Because I can. Gonzaw votes up Blurry for using his gut and WIFOM. Nothing substantial. Contradiction again. Omg, more "misinterpretation" DID YOU SEE THE PART WHERE I FOUND BLURRY WAS LYING? ARE YOU IGNORING THAT ON PURPOSE? ARE YOU IGNORING ALL THE OTHER REASONS I STATED ON N1? This post is full of garbage. As other players have mentioned Blurry shouldn't have to be the only one to argue that he is town, others can argue it for him to avoid a mis-lynch. Mafia gains a clear advantage when no-body stands up for each other. Gonzaw is very aggressive and gives us some WIFOM against Blurry. Gonzaw is hypocritical here again, using WIFOM against Blurry, but when WIFOM is used against himself it can't be right. Are you kidding me? You are saying that a townie shouldn't defend himself? If Blurry was scum, do you know how easy it would be for him to fucking forget about the game and let other townies defend him? Are you seriously implying that just to make me suspicious? Blurry told the truth the whole time. He admitted he was a weak player. Gonzaw says Blurry is playing the "newb card". Blurry was a newb. Gonzaw was trying hard to goad people into voting up for Blurry based on nothing really. Right, because we knew that he was "telling the truth the whole time" at that point. This is what you are doing: -Gonzaw thought Blurry was scum because of X -Blurry was X because he was town -Therefore, gonzaw knew that Blurry was X because he was town, and therefore is scum lol try harder. You are sinking yourself deeper and deeper. You are implying that when we scumhunt in the future, we don't take into account the "I'm a newb" responses, you are implying that we shouldn't let players defend themselves, and you are implying that we shouldn't pressure other players by the obvious statements they say. Gonzaw doesn't even really defend himself here. He just curses a lot and says "you are twisting my words, stop it". BECAUSE HE FUCKING WAS!! What? You want me to make a 10 pages rebuttal of his terrible case? His case is so fucking wrong it woudln't be too hard. There is no reason to fake claim here. Probulous breadcrumbed in the beginning of the thread, if that isn't proof enough. Prob was spot on against Sheth. Gonzaw is pretty much the only person that against Prob right now. Gonz then posts this weird post above about WIFOM non-sense, something he is against. What? There is no reason to fake-claim? Are you fucking kidding me? IT'S FUCKING LYLO IF HE FAKECLAIMS, AND THERE IS NO DT, THEN HE COULD HAVE SURVIVED D4 WITH HIS SCUMBUDDY AND WIN THE GAME Are you fucking kidding me? Also "Prob breadcrumbed in the beginning of the thread". Do you think scum can't do that? Even more, that breadcrumb was so "hidden", that scum can do it, but then never fakeclaim blue anyways, knowing the "breadcrumb" is so fucking hidden no other townie will ever find it. And what WIFOM nonsense are you talking about? Of course it's WIFOM, and it should be noted, BECAUSE YOU FUCKING GUYS JUST ASSUMED HE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH. Nail in the coffin. Right : rolleyes : Are you kidding me? Are you saying that Ver's Guide is wrong? If someone acts in a way opposite of what Ver says in the guide, I find that evidence enough to be suspicious, because I trust most of what that guide says... It's also why they even put links to those guides here in the first place! Also, wow. I'm almost convinced both of you are teaming up on me. Either you blatantly sheep Prob's aweful case against me without any reason whatsoever, or you just skimmed through my filter and used strawman, misinterpretation and just blatantly wrong statements to paint me suspicious. Not only that, both of you are saying "You are fucking suspicious and I think you are scum, but hey, gonzaw is scum too, we could lynch him first" Hey I can do that too!! "Hey Cats', you are fucking suspicious and I think you are scum, but hey, Paper is scum too, we could lynch him first" ##Vote: Paperscraps However, I'll still fucking check Cephiro, everybody's just assuming he's fucking confirmed townie by this point is not funny. Although that's a very good reason to fucking continue tunneling me On January 13 2012 22:35 Paperscraps wrote:Cats inconsistent play doesn't strike gonzaw as odd? By gonzaw's logic, Cats and gonzaw's minimal and evasive communication should be something to note then. Cats is all over the place with accusations and changes of heart. Yes, his fucking inconsistent play strike me as odd, but his behaviour didn't. At least at that point, now I know I was wrong. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 14 2012 14:31 Paperscraps wrote:gonzaw's response to my argument against him was kind of hilarious. He is digging his own grave at the moment. Right: "Wow, he made a good response, and found the flaws on my post and the reasons for it, what should I do?" "I know, I'll say his post is hilarious and never address it, that will be okay". Some points to be made about this hilarious post. 1. First off gonzaw is only being defensive and not offensive. I understand his back is against the wall, but you can't win unless you score a few points. What about me fucking saying you are scum is not offensive? I can basicly prove you are scum by your behaviour this day. It's so transparent you are scum it's not funny, and I'm sure BK will see that too. 2. His responses to my posts are poor. He laughs at some of the points I make. He avoids some points all together. He uses a bunch of curse words. None of this tells me anything. Wow, the contradiction is so bad it hurts... You say I avoid "some points altogether". Guess what? YOU ARE AVOIDING ALL OF MY POINTS ALTOGETHER TOO. You are saying my responses are "poor", but you don't even address them, good job! This is huge scum tell to me. Answers are in the details. Just because I don't post about the "details" doesn't mean I don't take them into account. Strawman! You can't base your entire case on some guide! People are unpredictable! Then can you tell me why the flying fuck they put the links to those guides here in the first place? Summary: Both gonzaw and Cats are slipping now that the pressure is on. Both are making mistakes/contradictions. They are being evasive. Just look at how Cats is being so passive, yet he knows I am mafia! Where is the analysis! We are MYLO and he is dodging. gonzaw I am not worried about, it is plain as day that he is mafia No, you are making mistakes/contradictions, and cats is slipping under the pressure. Also, we are at LYLO not MYLO for fucks sake, learn the difference. On January 15 2012 02:50 Paperscraps wrote: @gonzaw: I haven't forgotten that Cats and Ceph could be the last mafia as well. I think this possibility is very small. I am not going to feel bad either if town loses because of this. You have only made the situation worse with all of your laughable posts as of recent. I will give you same ultimatum I have given Cats. Prove to me with non-rage induced analysis that Cats and Ceph are cohorts. Go on the offensive for once! lol, you want me to "prove" that the other players, who are not you are mafia. You see, that's impossible, since you are mafia. That leaves me with convincing Cephiro and bkrow that I am town and CatsnHats is scum. Wow, so previously you were convinced that both me and cats were scum, and now you are saying "Oh people, I know this is WIFOM, but what if Cephiro is scum? HMM?". What's with this sudden change of mind? Oh I know, you are just sheeping my previous suggestion. You are trying to create chaos and confusion. There are like 6-7 hours remaining before the day ends, and now you want others to "prove" Cephiro is scum instead of doing it at the beginning of the day, or when that giant popcorn row started? lol nice try, you know that will basicly end discussion until the day is over. On January 14 2012 05:19 CatsnHats wrote:I provided the Paperscraps case, but I haven't done a full blown Gonzaw case yet. I don't know if a full blown case is needed on him though. We have Prob and Jitsu suspecting him, and now they're both gone. That counts for something. I still post something about Gonz later though. As for who is more dangerous, I kinda think Paperscraps is. I don't think Gonzaw is capable of defending himself well other than cursing and rhetorical questioning, Paperscraps is beginning to be more active (although I don't think his arguments are that great). I could see Paperscraps convincing you and bkrow that he is just a newbie though, and that scares me. That being said, I'm fine with voting off either, because I think both are mafia. What do think Ceph? Wtf? You haven't responded to my posts yet. You haven't even stated a single reason of why you think I'm scum, you are just sheeping on Prob, and you continue doing it . Holy scum batman! I want Paper lynched so his logical fallacies and contradictions are finally over, and it will be fairly easy to hang cats afterwards. But I don't mind hanging cats on this day, at least to avoid NL. Also, I'm eager to wait for Cephiro's "case" against me, I'm sure it will be as shitty as Prob's and Paper's. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 15 2012 04:30 Paperscraps wrote:I can't address the points you made that are outlandish and wrong. We need to get away from this circular argumentaion. Right, they are "outlandish and wrong" but you don't have the time to even state why they are so /sarcasm How do I address something like this? Easy, tell me why you used a fucking obvious strawman There is a big difference between arguing against some one with analysis on their filter and your obvious OMGUS retaliation. lol I thought you were scum as soon as Prob died, no OMGUS shit. I already answered this above. Repeating the same point over and over doesn't make it more right. What?...what is this response? So you justify my response being poor by saying "repeating them over and over doesn't make them right". You know what? It also doesn't mean they are wrong Can't you see this is a blatant fallacy? Can I read your mind? No. Then there is no way for me know if you are paying attention to detail if don't post analysis. Well well, so "there is no way for me to know if you are paying attention to detail" = = "what you said was a scumtell" Interesting. To help us?... Yeah, so the fact that I used the guide makes it "the nail in my coffin", right? No, one can be certain of anything. The end here is coming down to what is most probable. Also it must be possible since I am town. Saying "I am town" doesn't hold much weight. The same thing goes with saying "you are mafia", without proper analysis to back it up. lol, so you base your scumreads on "what is most probable"? lol Your blatant and intentional use of logical fallacies to make me lynched is enough evidence. Oh of course, not taking into account your "constant change of mind" regarding Blurry, and your sheeping on Jitsu and Prob. This is a viable concern, if you can't see the logic in that then I don't know what to say to you Yes, a "viable concern" you stated 7 hours before the day was over. I posted my thoughts for my concerns in the posts previous. Having a change of mind and having a concern is different. Right, but at first you were "certain" we were scum, and then you have your "concern" right before the day ends, and you tell everybody to make an analysis on why Cephiro could be scum, effectively wasting everybody's time and letting time pass till the day ends. Yeah, because Probu wasn't acting in the best interest of the town. His arguments must be bads. Purely subjective nonsense. Do I have to repeat myself on why Prob was fucking wrong? Check the response to cats, I'm sure you missed it trying to find the exact posts that paint me suspicious. Okay then lets see you do it! Shouldn't be hard. But of course, you will say it is wrong because I would be "repeating the same points over and over" right? And then you would ignore it, I'm sure you will. @Gonzaw: (Answers to your post in bold.) + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2012 08:48 gonzaw wrote: Wtf people? It's less than 1 hour and a half before the night ends and nobody's posting shit? We are at LYLO tomorrow for fucks sake!! Okay Paperscraps, I found your "read" on Blurry odd as hell. Here are all the times you mention Blurry: + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 09:39 Paperscraps wrote:Blurry Scum 1. + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 22:40 Blurry wrote: Yes I would, and will. #Vote: Liquid'Sheth As to gonzaw's statement of me simply regurgitating information. For the most part that has been true but I've been going by my gut, which is not something you can post when convincing other people to take your side. I've been suspicious of Sheth from the start but don't have the analysis skills to back it up (I know that will read as scummy but bear with me) and write an informed post as to why. If I don't have the evidence to back up my feelings then there is no point in posting it. Either Blurry is trying to bus his mafia buddy, to alleviate further pressure from himself or has great gut instincts. I am leaning more toward the former, but he did make somewhat of a case about Sheth just pressuring and not weeding out scum. Read through his filter, something just doesn't feel right about him. I am interested in what his response will be. Okay, so you start right off thinking Blurry is scum. However you justify it by your "leaning more towards the former" on a WIFOM situation, and the "something just doesn't feel right about him" wishy washiness. I agree that this was all speculation, I will leave out wishy washy remarks in the future. + Show Spoiler + Blurry doesn't agree to vote up Sheth until you ask him if he will. All his posts previous to that have no read on Sheth or say he he may be slightly town. I guess you are right that it is stupid to jump from Cats to Sheth, but you, one of the best readers in this game, think he is town now. Maybe that is what he wanted to happen. I still think he is scummy. Okay, that is a good reason though, which is what I stated earlier. + Show Spoiler + I am still leaning toward scum on Blurry as well. + Show Spoiler + @Prob: Yeah I can agree with all of this. Right now Cats>Blurry, due to the death of Jitsu and re-reading the filters of Jitsu, Cats and Sheth. Now suddenly you focus on Cats instead of Blurry just because of Jitsu's death and filter. What made you think Blurry was less scum than Cats? Why didn't you pursue Blurry more? I was thinking that Cats was much more probable than Blurry first off. After reading through Blurry's filter, he just seemed more inexperienced and more town. Probulous also thinking Blurry being town weighed a lot with me, because probulous had good reads and analysis thus far. + Show Spoiler + I still am not quite sure about Blurry, he hasn't really done anything to justify himself as of yet. Also your sudden change of heart about him isn't helping that either, because you are the scummiest read town has at the moment. "I still am not quite sure about Blurry"? Didn't you say he was scum before? You even put Blurry in the "Cats>Blurry" scum-o-meter. You also say he hasn't done anything to justify himself as of yet, and instead of convincing you he's scum, it convinces you that you are not sure? That doesn't make any sense. I should have made it clear that the general census of the town leaning towards Blurry being innocent was swaying what I was thinking about him. I kept linking Blurry with Sheth. Blurry somewhat called Sheth out early on, but never followed up later. This was probably the main reason that I thought Blurry was scum. Prob and the rest of town convinced me otherwise. Even Cats started to convince me that Blurry was town. + Show Spoiler + 4.Basically this all sums up to a redirection or deflection of scrutiny that is on you Cats and Blurry. I am positive that Cats in scum now, because he is scared that I suspect him of it and now gives some pretty trivial/wrong accusations against me. Sounds like he is getting desperate. This also further makes Blurry look bad. All of a sudden Blurry is clean in your eyes? or maybe he is your scum buddy! I am guessing that latter. I bet this was your plan for the whole day to vote up Blurry, then have some sudden revelation and vote up a townie who isn't even responsible for half of his time in the game yet. Now instead of "not being sure about Blurry" you still think he's scummy. But you don't outright say it. You say "this also further makes Blurry look bad" and "maybe he is your scumbuddy! I am guessing that latter" You are implying that if Cats is scum, then Blurry may be too. You are not saying Blurry is scum, you are just casting suspicion on him by your tunneling of Cats Yeah, now I was linking Blurry with Cats. Cats was pushing for Blurry to be lynched then switched to me, which made me think that it was some sort of trick. I was wrong on this. Noob mistake on my part. + Show Spoiler + Blurry slightly scummy(this depending on the current lynch of Cats). Cats strong scum read. That leaves me as well, but I don't really know how the majority read me yet. Blurry voting up Cats could be his redemption though. So Blurry voting up Cats is his redemption? What? I was thinking that Cats is mafia, so if Blurry voted up Cats then that would mean that Blurry would indeed be town. + Show Spoiler + As for your analysis of Blurry: I can actually agree with this. I wish he would post more. He has you pegged as scum, so that makes him a little less noob though, haha. 3. Blurry does call out Sheth. I skipped over that because he does it in a shy way though and never follows through with analysis. "He has you pegged as scum, so that makes him a little less noob though, haha." What? So you just forget about Blurry being scum because of that? Not just because of that, but also in general the town was swaying more towards Blurry being town. Blurry made a decent case against Cats. I didn't forget about Blurry being scum, but rather Blurry was lower on my list. I was thinking Cats would be a safer bet. + Show Spoiler + Lynching Cats or Xeris is win-win for me. And here you never mention Blurry either, even though you had him as "scum" for a long time. You basicly forget about him, even though he did almost nothing, and there was a case and pressure against him. And what was that constant change of opinion on Blurry? First you thought he was scum. Then you weren't sure. Then you thought he was Cat's scumbuddy, but then stopped thinking he was scum. And you gave almost no reason for these change of opinions. Also, if you thought Blurry was scum, why did you ignore my case against him? This I find odd as hell. It looks like you wanted to make Blurry suspicious but didn't want to actually make a case or anything against him on your own, nor you wanted to sheep other people's cases either. If you thought he was scum, then surely you must have paid attention to my case, but you never mentioned it in the slightest The constant change of opinions is due to getting caught up with the game, re-reading peoples filters and the general feeling of the town. Thinking he was Cats' scum buddy, was just hypothetical. I didn't ignore your case against Blurry. I just didn't find it very strong. I think the fact that Sheth and Blurry didn't talk much was due to Blurry being inexperienced plain and simple. I don't know why I have to mention other peoples arguments against people, when I make my own. That is unreasonable. Also: + Show Spoiler + On January 12 2012 13:54 Paperscraps wrote: Just got back from school. Wow oh wow at what happened. Dang I wish Blurry didn't make a huge blunder like that. Town is in bad shape. Seems like Cats and Prob or Gonz are mafia. Will be interesting to see who they target tonight. If Prob dies, then it is Cats and Gonz If Gonz dies, then it is Cats and Prob If I die, which I won't think will happen due to people being suspicious of me, then I don't know who the last mafia is. What is this? You just assume both Cephiro and BK are town? And you don't give any reasons for it? It is not so much that I am assuming people are town, but rather that I thought Cats and you were more probable to be scum than others at the time in such a situation. You were suspicious of Blurry thanks to WIFOM Then you say that you started to think he was town because you were sheeping Prob, and because "town thought that way" However, you still thought of Blurry as scum Then, because Blurry voted Cats, you instantly thought he was town, because of WIFOM. Really? Blatant sheeping, justification of your "reads" based on WIFOM, inconsistencies in your "read" of Blurry, etc, etc... Pretty harsh thing to say. Making a case for someone being town is just as effective as making a case for someone being scum. Scum are the people that don't want others to know who town are. You are making me suspicious by defending Cookies actions. This is an obvious attempt to make me suspicious without even trying, you just say "Cookie was a townie, therefore he was right, therefore your reason for being suspicious of him was wrong, therefore you are mafia" Gonzaw then proceeds to vote up CM. He doesn't provide any real evidence against CM. You "forget" that I was continuously pressuring CM and pointing out very bad and scummy play from him. Gonzaws sticks with his vendetta against CM(AKCT), with no real evidence. You "forget" about my responses to AKCT too Obviously you are twisting my interactions with CM/AKCT to make it look like I just "voted him for no reason", or maybe even "sheeped along" or some shit Gonzaw is trying to cast suspicion on to Blurry. He knows that the mafia isn't going to use their role blocker, so that the town is at a disadvantage. This very reasoning lead us to the mis-lynch of Blurry. Oh the irony You are purposefully misinterpreting "pressuring" as "casting suspicion". You also make a nice totally irrelevant tale about how if I was mafia I would have not used the RB or some shit. Then you make an irelevant remark about how because mafia didn't use the roleblocker, then Blurry was lynched. Hey, PROB got Blurry lynched, not me, and certanly not mafia. You know this but purposefully make me look suspicious by saying "oh you are mafia, and you didn't RB so you could cast suspicion on Blurry and lynch him afterwards, because you suddenly knew Blurry was medic all the game, and that Prob was DT so you could get Prob to lynch Blurry" or some shit. This is the same thing Sheth did. He gave a pep talk to Cats to not throw the game. Here you blatantly lie to make me suspicious. Gonzaw claims that Blurry's reasons for voting up CM(AKCT) are bad. Yet, Gonzaw claims that Blurry's reason were part of the reasons why he voted up CM(AKCT). Sounds like a contradiction to me. Of course, let's not forget the obvious strawman that you use to make me suspicious, which you don't even try to justify Then, Gonzaw sheeps/bandwagons(whatever you want to call it) with Prob in the lynching of Sheth. He doesn't provide any analysis of Sheth and says he had a null reason of him up until this point. Of course we know now that Prob knew for a fact that Sheth was mafia, but at the time no one knew this. Then he just disappears and leaves his scum buddy to die, so he doesn't have to provide any reasoning to his vote Here you are using my inactivity to paint me suspicious. When you well know that I couldn't have done anything regarding it. Gonzaw votes up Blurry for using his gut and WIFOM. Nothing substantial. Contradiction again. Again, trying to make me suspicious by blatantly ignoring my post and picking the parts of it that you want This post is full of garbage. As other players have mentioned Blurry shouldn't have to be the only one to argue that he is town, others can argue it for him to avoid a mis-lynch. Mafia gains a clear advantage when no-body stands up for each other. Gonzaw is very aggressive and gives us some WIFOM against Blurry. Gonzaw is hypocritical here again, using WIFOM against Blurry, but when WIFOM is used against himself it can't be right. Here, let me repeat what I said previously (and you ignored) Written by gonzaw, whatever: This is what you are doing: -Gonzaw thought Blurry was scum because of X -Blurry was X because he was town -Therefore, gonzaw knew that Blurry was X because he was town, and therefore is scum lol try harder. You are sinking yourself deeper and deeper. You are implying that when we scumhunt in the future, we don't take into account the "I'm a newb" responses, you are implying that we shouldn't let players defend themselves, and you are implying that we shouldn't pressure other players by the obvious statements they say. There is no reason to fake claim here. Probulous breadcrumbed in the beginning of the thread, if that isn't proof enough. Prob was spot on against Sheth. Gonzaw is pretty much the only person that against Prob right now. Gonz then posts this weird post above about WIFOM non-sense, something he is against. Again, you are making me suspicious because I doubted a blue claim Nail in the coffin. Sheeping your scumbuddy to paint me suspicious, because I wasn't sure of Probs claim. You can't base your entire case on some guide! People are unpredictable! Strawman, I never said I would base an "entire case" on some guide To help us?... Again, you are contradicting yourself. You say that me using the guide to "help me" figure out whether Prob's claim is true or not, is the "nail in my coffin". You are blatantly trying to use anything in your power to paint me suspicious. You know I'm town and so need to fabricate things to make me suspicious. So right now that leaves Cephiro and Cats both on the same playing field in my eyes. We all need to be finding holes in each others posts. I have argued against Cats, so I am going to focus some attention on Cephiro to see what I can find out. Right, you are trying to paint Cephiro suspicious so maybe you don't need to start a heavy bus right away. However, you can't find anything against him, even if you continue to paint him suspicious, so you finalize your bus: Thus, CatsnHats and Gonzaw are mafia scum. BOOM! Goes the dynamite! However, later you just state that the scum teams are based on "probability". Cephiro and gonzaw are still a possibility for mafia, even though it is slim. @Cephiro: I think you are town. However you can't be 100% certain that I am town and I can't be 100% certain you are either. Just making sure we cover all possibilities. I am very interested in your take on gonzaw. Question: Would you be willing to lynch gonzaw instead of CatsnHats? In the off-chance you are mafia, you are very devious haha. I can't find anything in your filter to suggest you are scum though. WIFOM: The only reason I had any suspicion of the possibility that gonzaw and you might be the last two mafia was because you were delayed in making a case solely against gonzaw and pushing Cats. I was thinking you were going to make a case against gonzaw first, because he seems more scummy to me than Cats, but not by much. If by some miracle Cats was innocent, however unlikely, then switching gears to get Cats lynched instead gonzaw would cause the town to lose. I think this is very unlikely. I am over thinking things. I agree with you. It is clear that Cats and gonzaw are the last two mafia. Really what the fuck is this wishy washy thing? First you say that me and Ceph are a "possibility". Before you were "sure" cats and me were scum, but now you start talking about "possibilities"? What? Then you immediately say that you think Ceph is town, and immediately say "oh you have a chance of being mafia, we can't be sure wishy washy wishy washy". Then you use WIFOM to be more wishy washy, and then immediately say that me and Cats are the two last mafia. For fucks sake this is so wishy washy it's not funny. Also, you just said "I will check Ceph" or some shit before. You didn't ask me to make a "case" against Ceph, and you didn't ask your scumbuddy to make one either by that point. You did it almost when the day was over Because you knew that would give you time, it would make me contribute less trying to come up with a "case" against Ceph which you know won't happen since he's town. It will excuse your scumbuddy from posting or doing shit by "doing the same thing" Then, even if one of us would "find" anything, all the remainder of the day would be used to discuss that, which is pointless since Ceph is town, and you know it. You know this will clog up the thread, and waste our time. And of course, your refusal to respond to my points, you justifying it by implying "you repeated your points over and over, therefore they are wrong" and "that post was hilarious, therefore I won't respond to it". It's clear as day you are scum @gonzaw: I just wanted to say that the anger in your posts should be avoided in the future. What am I to think of some ones state of mind when they make a post full of cursing, CAPS, weird spacing and general hostility. Anger leads to irrational thinking. This nullifies anything you say. I know my anger towards fallacies, confirmation bias and stuff is not called for. But I can't do much about it. However, I doubt that makes me "think irrationally", since for me to be angry I have to notice the fallacies in the first place. Also, I never do Ad Hominem attacks, I never insulted you nor anybody. If you can't handle a few "for fuck's sake" then it's not my fault. ...ehmm, with the exception of Blurry when he was lynched, I would want to apologize to him because of that. Also BK, I'm waiting for your analysis and who you think we should lynch. As how things are going, I'm happy since we are bound to get scum. However, I would prefer to lynch Paper first. His logical fallacies, misinterpretation and nitpicking are indeed dangerous and can make you or Ceph believe he is town. Once Paper flips scum, Ceph will know I'm town and we can be safe to lynch Cats, so I beg of you to think this through | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 15 2012 07:23 Cephiro wrote: Case #2 First you are trying to paint me as "experienced", when it's my first time playing. A few others called me out for my bad starting posts, but for some reason you are trying to make me look dangerous, but not calling out on that mistake? What? I wasn't painting you as "experienced". You were experienced, at least that's what I got from at that point. I wanted to know why to pressure you, what's wrong with that? In the latter part, I think it's because you know that there is a mafia roleblocker (for all I know you could be the mafia rb, it's you or Cats after all). You're trying to set yourself up for fake-claiming in case it's needed. Your only risk would be the counter-claim, but especially since your strong start you must've believed that you can convince everyone that you would be the real power role. What? You are basicly making up one of those "Prob's stories" there. I didn't fucking know if there was a RBer or not. I wanted people to not assume there was one if someone claimed RBer. I can't see how I'm fucking suspicious because of that Setting yourself up to start pressuring Gretorp more once he shows up, also asking Cats to join the bandwagon if you decide to start one. Unfortunately that didn't quite work out since he was so inactive, you had to find another target. What? You are telling me you didnt' want Gretorp pressured? Also good story there! You are just like Prob! Keeping up Gretorp's name just incase anyone is about to forget, then soft-pressuring Cats about some more pre-planned "newbie" mistakes. ?? For fucks sake you are just telling me what I did? Of course I was bringing Gretorps name so nobody forgets, because people were forgetting about him. Maybe not by that point, but yes later Also lol at that second part, fucking confirmation bias and shitty storytelling. Filler, but admitting it to excuse yourself. Yes, so? I didn't want anybody to dwell on that, I just wanted to give my thoughts so I didnt' forget about it on Post-Game or something. Also maybe someone could have said something interesting about it More back-and-forth chit-chat w/ scumbuddy Cats, so that no-one can back to you about ignoring him. Here you are "learning him how to play", with the previously planned "newbie mistake". Also, what are these "reads" you are talking about? What the? I was assuming he was a newbie there that didn't know what to do, so I explained to him what he could do or should do. Are you going to tell me that's a "scumtell"? Prob has been doing it the whole game with Cats. "What are these "reads" you are talking about"? Are you kidding me? He said he was "waiting the return of Blurry and Xeris", so I wanted to pressure him so he would give his thoughts about it eventually He picks on Cookie here and votes for him due to his newbie play and mistakes. Yet he lets me off the hook for some of the same things. Taking one out, setting the other up for brainwash, trying to convince me into agree whatever your opinion is later. Also, the same mistake Cats did later. Soft pressuring Probu, not really blaming him for anything, but throwing around the idea that he could be scum. Just trying to cause suspicions here. What? I won't fucking repeat the reasons of why I voted Cookie, read the fucking thread. I pressured him, pointed out his blatant scummy mistake when he said he would vote for the player with the lowest vote total. He ignored me, so I continued pressuring him. That was my biggest tell, and as far as I remember you didn't do anything similar like that. Everybody needs to be pressured, even the "confirmed townie messiah" Prob. Fluff talk about using a similar format. Then you bring up Gretorp again. Wow, cool story bro. What's the fucking point of saying what I'm doing? Also, it's not fucking fluff, it was pressure, and it payed off because he said the stupid "I will emulate players" shit And.... CONTRADICTION! Here you are saying if a townie is roleblocked they should claim "of course". But earlier you go on about how a possible fake-claim could mess it up, making the town think there is a roleblocker when there isn't. You're being ambigious here, so that you can back up on yourself whatever someone thinks. No it's fucking not. I don't get how this is so hard to understand: -If you are a townie and you were RBed, claim you were RBed -If someone else claims RBed, don't blindly believe they were Where's the fucking contradiction? Blablabla WIFOM blablabla LYLO blablabla WIFOM blablabla RB blablablabla WIFOM. What's the point? Wow, great effort there. If you hadn't seen, Prob thought I was "red" because of the WIFOM shit, which was stupid, and I pointed out why, and explained it to him so he wouldnt' make a similar stupid mistake in the future. Soft-pressuring Probu again. Picking up on his mistakes, trying to punish him for that. What? So if someobody has a "mistake" nobody should even mention it? Backing up scumbuddy Sheth. I already said this, how the fuck would I have known he was scum by that point? Shit Then he has a longer post where he blames Xeris, Cookie, and Blurry. ( 3 townies ) What does the fact that they were townies got to do with it? First of all, Xeris played horribly, even in the 4 posts he made. I noticed that and pressured him, and he played worse later. Also, what? I'm "blaming" them? I'm pressuring them, I can't see how you would think that is "scummy" Time to pressure the next townie a bit, Jitsu is under the gun this time. What? Again with the fucking confirmation bias You are assuming I'm scum, and so you think "well, he is scum, therefore he knew Jitsu was town". That's fucking wrong and you know it. Also, what, I should choose specifically who to pressure and who not to pressure? Just because somebody is "town" in everybody else's eyes doesn't make it in mine. Nor Jitsu, nor Prob, nor Tunkeg were free from being pressured. I don't want the others to know if there are blues since they could use that information to check us or protect our night-kills." No, I didnt' want the blues (if there were ones) to fucking out themselves so scum would kill them as they please "Blablabla, our kill went through, I'll post some filler." Re-read his reads knowing he is town and everyone's reasons for voting bla... isn't that obvious? You keep bringing Gretorp up again. You sure want this lurker townie lynched? And then pushing the other lurker too. Going for free town-lynches much? Nice story. And no, it may not be obvious, at least not as obvious as "If you are RBed you should claim". Remember how in every Newbie game here the coaches say in post game "Every flip, reread the thread knowing they are town, bla bla bla". If the coaches need to explain it every Post Game, then I need to explain it here. Also again with the Gretorp thing? I'm not pushing I'm pressuring them and I didn't want other to forget about them "I'm not saying the lurkers are mafia so I can't be called out for that, BUT OH THEY ARE SO SCUMMY AND WE NEED TO GET RID OF THEM, THEY ARE DANGEROUS" Yeah. >.> Keep pushing for the lurkers. What? You are fucking twisting my words again. I never said we needed to get rid of them (although them being replaced sooner or something would have been better), I said they needed to be pressured. Keeps bringing up a quote that doesn't really mean pretty much anything. BUT IT'S A CLEAR SCUM-TELL ABOUT A LURKER!!!! *sigh* You are telling me that statement doesn't strike you as odd or anything? Again, it's basicly playing the "newb card", in an EXTREME way, that it needs to be brought up so he can explain himself Keeps going about on how Cats's game sucks whether he is mafia or not --> "Don't take notice of him, he's just bad" When in reality, the mastermind plan has just started... Are you going to say the same thing to Prob? Time to start blaming the next townie. But he ends up being too clever -> He has to be killed. Then you keep posting back and forth with Tunkeg arguing useless crap to keep him occupied until you get him killed. Very pro-town play.... eh? Like I said, nobody is free from pressure. Tunkeg posted a shitty post and I brought it up, how the fuck do you conclude "Time to start blaming the next townie" from that? Oh I know, fucking confirmation bias Oh, the mighty Probu mindcontrols even the mafia. "I strongly believe that my scumbuddy is scum after reading your case." You all scum certainly kept sucking up to him trying to stay safer that way. And here you do your brilliant move. Placeholder vote so that you won't be suspected at all if your scumbuddy dies. I think you had planning on sacrificing someone all along? Unfortunately for you it came sooner than expected due to Probu's N1 check. (Brilliant move, thanks for believing in me!), but you managed to talk your way out of any responsibility. How are you supposed to get any kind of read on a placeholder vote? What the..? I WAS FUCKING AWAY, for fucks sake how many times do I need to say this? Looks so genuinely happy.... not. Wow, thanks for that insightful remark Long story short: Accusing Probu & Blurry after Sheth's flip for different stuff, then OMGUS-defending when me and Cats pick on his placeholder vote. I'll give it that you've played well as mafia constantly picking each other for all kinds of small stuff but nothing that you could REALLY blame each other for. What the fuck? That was never OMGUS? I was pointing HOW IDIOTIC IT WAS OF YOU TO SAY I WAS SUSPICIOUS BECAUSE OF THAT, since I was away. Also, Long story short: thank you for just retelling what I did, good job at that! Even longer story short: Filler crap about how it's so bad that a lurker got replaced with another, when it's actually making the game easier for you scummies. This is the point where you've already suspected Blurry is the medic, and he starts pressuring him accordingly, to move on into getting him lynched D3. He also "Doesn't like the Cats bandwagon because it's so easy to lynch him." Nice defense for your scumbuddy there. Of course I was angry at the "lurker replaces lurker" thing, who woudlnt' be? lol, I suspected Blurry was the medic? Wtf? Are you going to retell every single post from the "scum QT" perhaps too? What the fuck is this speculation shit? I pressured Blurry because he posted WIFOM shit, contradicted himself, had shitty reasons for voting, I didnt' "know he was the medic". If I had known, then I wouldn't have pressured him. Gonzaw goes on suspecting and pressuring Probu because he keeps defending Blurry from Gonz's accusations. What? Are you telling me Prob should defend Blurry from every accusations? How about if nobody does anything, and the game only revolves around Prob accusing and defending others? That would be fun! And makes up the most wishy-washy explanations how Blurry is scum ever. What? That wasnt' a "reason" for why Blurry was scum. I already explained why Those explanations where of why Blurry's post was shit, which actually convinced me he was scum He just ignores everything Blurry says and calls it WIFOM. Easy analysis? Hell yeah. He then also picks on Blurry for playing the newbie card, but then he lets Cats away with it. Talk about bias.... IT WAS FUCKING WIFOM. AND HE WAS IGNORING EVERYTHING ELSE I SAID TO HIM. Cats had already been called out by his "newbie card", I didn't need to call it out to, it would have brought shit to the discussion. He keeps calling out Blurry for his bad claiming timing, and says that he won't even consider the possibility that he is the medic if he doesn't respond to his posts. = Easy way out of the responsibility of the lynch. Right, so again, I'm scum for doubting a blue claim? Okay: Hey! If you are scum and I'm town in a next game we play, fake-claim all you want! I will instantly believe it now because if not everybody will assume I'm mafia! "I iz cauzin some confuzions to meik it ezpz" - All over it. Wtf? First of all, I understood shit of what you just said there Oh yesh, Probu is about to bow to the mafia. Isn't that what you wanted. Thank you for the useless storytelling Enter fake-rage mode. I think you are so sure of your win that you aren't even concentrating here anymore.... Right, so there's no reason for me to be angry that our medic claimed 1 hour before the lynch, when he only had 1 vote on him, and he never showed up to respond to accusations and was lynched, right? /sarcasm Fake depression time. "I r so desperatez bcuz I messed up " "Wai people blame me???" Oh right, so if I continue swearing it was "more of the fake-rage mode", but if I calmed down it was "fake-depression time" This is a piece of shit argument, full of confirmation bias. Cephiro, you better take a close look at Paper, he's pulling the wool in front of your eyes goddamit! | ||
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Even you town, you don't know the lols that Blurry lynch gave us Also people. If I offended anyone with the "aggressive" thing (Blurry and stuff), then I apologize. It was just the "being aggresive=being townie" act until N3, and after that I was just lazy and did it for fun | ||
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On January 15 2012 10:07 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Well played guys <3 Cephiro our plan was perfect and you and Gonz played it perfectly. <3 You took one for the team buddy! You were the core of this win! | ||
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Also lol, we never used the RB abliity >_> | ||
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On January 15 2012 10:11 CatsnHats wrote: Gonzaw you were hilarious. fuck? fuck? fuck? /sarcasm I know right? I wasn't even trying on D4 lol | ||
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On January 15 2012 10:17 CatsnHats wrote: Everyone was trying to get me to post analysis on you. And I was just reading thinking "Why? Can everyone else not see how obvious this is?" LOL Yeah that was the point. Wouldn't want you and Paper to think Cephiro was scum, woudn't I?  | ||
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Tunkeg: I go for prob get nightkilled and paper lynched, scum wins Wow, really good prediction | ||
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On January 15 2012 10:37 GreYMisT wrote:Probulous I feel should win Town MVP Of course As soon as he posted that wall-of-text analysis and pegged Cephiro I said "I want him dead" But i have to give the scum MVP award to Cephiro, for somehow becoming confirmed town after almost getting lynched day 1. And he should. Damn, how everybody thought he was town from D3 onwards is not funny, he must be a genius or something! Also, do I get points for predicting Blurry was Medic and Prob DT, and he checked Sheth and BK? >_> | ||
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On January 15 2012 10:29 GreYMisT wrote:Also, considering the final day, One of the keys to surviving an lylo situation is to take a step back, and instead of diving into each person's posting and analysis, just take a broad look at their actions and interactions with others in the game. Usally you will find something that doesnt quite fit. Take cephiro on the last day for example. When asked about lynching gonzaw, he said his reasoning will be coming shortly, yet he posts a SUUUUPPPEER long thing on cats before even coming around to gonzaw. and by that time it is basically time for the game to be over. its subtle, but you can sense a reluctance to lynch gonzaw in his posting, even when he says he is fine lynching him. To be honest, he did spend like 5-6 hours doing those posts >_> | ||
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On January 15 2012 11:01 Jitsu wrote: Too bad I couldn't actually accomplish anything in the game, other than getting suspicious of Sheth right before Probulous came out with his analysis, and saying "gonzaw" right before I died. Again. Sigh. lol, your situation was like Citizen Kane or something: -Before dying, Jitsu said "(I'll check) gonzaw.......('s filter)". Then everybody spent D3 analizing what this meant. They analysed Jitsu's history (filter) to find any indications of what his last words meant. However, Town soon forgot about it, but when all was lost, it was revealed.....that "gonzaw was scum". | ||
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On January 15 2012 11:12 wherebugsgo wrote: To my pupil: you asked good questions, and you played well. You did your job well and that's why you died early. If you want some more advice just PM me and I'll respond as best as I can. Oh, who was it? Also, I think with our coach we just talked about Mario 64 and joked and stuff >_> Was great fun though! Go Go Cyber_Cheese! | ||
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On January 15 2012 11:25 Tunkeg wrote: This was a brilliant play by Gonz (even though I think he overdid it later in the game by getting into an arguement with Jitsu right before he died, and prob right before he died, which made Gonz look very cummy towards the end). >_> EDIT: Anyways, thanks for the analysis! (and the MVP award, although maybe it should be split in many different areas IMO, I don't think each scum member was any less or any better than the other, not even Sheth) | ||
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On January 15 2012 11:25 Tunkeg wrote: The mother of all fuck ups Blurry claimed when he shouldn't and that led to his death and probs death, which instead may have led to a confirmed DT read on Gonz. I'd like to point something out about it. First, yes, it was a bad claim. However, Blurry was very unlucky. First, there was a RBer, which means the RBer (yours truly ) could RB him, and basicly make him lynched the next day (had Blurry survived the lynch).Second, if Prob had thought there was a RBer, then he wouldn't have pushed for Blurry's lynch, and may even have believed him (when Blurry was eventually RBed). This was less bad play from Prob and Blurry, and I think better play from scum that decided not to RB both nights. EDIT: Also, if Blurry wasn't lynched (and there was a NL), I don't know if Prob would have suspected I was scum at that point. I think he would have checked Paper or Blurry perhaps (so he would really know if there is a RBer or not). EDIT: On January 15 2012 11:59 Jitsu wrote: It's usually not revealed who the coaches we're coaching, AFAIK You don't? >_> <_< | ||
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On January 15 2012 12:12 Probulous wrote: First off thanks to Palmar. He answered my questions with simple clear answers. Timezone was difficult but I got what I asked for. Secondly, FUCK YOU CEPHIRO I've said it before, if you were scum you deserved the win. I really feel town was screwed by having a scum team that just vastly outplayed the majority of the town. Tunk and Jitsu (especially) played really well but as always the good die young. If you look at the rest of the days there was me against Gonzaw and Cephiro. Cats played really well in the end, but had no credit. Blurry lurked and then WTF claimed, the rest of town provided almost nothing. Knowing that Cephiro was scum makes me feel good about my reads. If Ceph wasn't scum then my first day reads were all wrong! My DT checks were pretty spot on though, Sheth and Gonzaw were red so I am happy with that. But by far my best play I feel was changing my read on Cats. It is really hard to go back and change something that you are sure of but in this case it was the right thing to do. As for scum you played very well, it is kind of ironic that the only reason I looked at Sheth night one was cause of Ceph but it bought him town cred with me. His noticing of Blurry's breadcrumbs was also brilliant play. Gonz, you played well but your over aggressive responses made it very clear to me you were scum. Of course it didn't matter because I died but if they others had read over my case it would have been clear. So awards MVP - Town goes to Jitsu, scum goes to Ceph for his response to my case day 1. Most improved - Cats, no question there. WTF? Blurry and his fail claim Thanks Grey I really enjoyed the game. I think the lesson for town in this game is that everyone needs to participate and evaluate on their own. There were times where the only people questioning my read were scum Well, to be honest I did in fact believe your case against me was based on confirmation bias >_> Also, appearing scummy on N3 onwards wasn't a problem to me. In fact, it was what I wanted, since it would take pressure off Ceph, and lead us to victory, whether I was lynched or not. Also yeah, cats improved a lot. Too bad (or thank god for us >_> ) that his early play punished him later on. | ||
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On January 15 2012 12:39 Probulous wrote: I got suspicious when you refused to actually answer anything. You just started swearing and calling stuff WIFOM. It may have been WIFOM but it was hardly a defence. I was sure but I was dead, so it didn't matter I am not the best at persuading others. Look at my case against Sheth, it makes no sense. I ended up pleading with people. The fact that all three scum voted for him to be killed just shows how bad the lurkers fucked us over. Anyway, well played. I put a lot of effort into this game and would have liked a win, but I can say that town as a whole was outplayed. Well yeah, I know my response to your case sealed the deal about me being scum, although not your actual case. The thing is that you posted so close to the deadline, and I wanted to respond to your case before you died... So instead of making a good defence, I just rushed over it posting "fuck fucking fuck" every once in a while >_> I think you may even see that one of my responses was "This is fucking" and nothing else >_> I was in such a hurry I forgot to finish that sentence >_> Here: EDIT: And I wasn't lying when I mentioned Paper's strawmans and confirmation bias either >_> It seems that a lot of you use that "storytelling" thing to "pinpoint" mafia. You quote a post and say "Oh, and here he goes and votes for a townie, which he knows hecause he is scum." "Oh, and he suspects Blurry's the medic, so he wants him lynched, which is why he voted him there". "Oh, he knew that Blurry was a newb and used WIFOM, so he used those to push his lynch". I mean, if you already know I'm scum, that's a good way of justifying my posts (actually Ceph's case against me was the actual story of how I played scum, taking out the "cat's scumbuddy" and "you were making me suspicious!" parts >_> ). But it's not a very good way of determining if I'm scum or not. You can do that with any player basicly (unless you find contradictions, in which case he's confirmed townie, or similar). EDIT2: Also, did the town coaches know who the scumteam was? (as in, were they told who was scum when the game started?). If not, it would have been a good idea to mindfuck them by asking townie questions and stuff >_> | ||
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On January 15 2012 10:45 Cephiro wrote:But since I chose to not read guides but learn the game by playing, Probu's first-day case on me actually helped my play a lot. Oh another thing. I read Ver's Guide, and decided to act the opposite of what he said scum usually act >_> Meh, worked until N3 though... | ||
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