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lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up.
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Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention.
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On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts.
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Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr
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I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free.
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On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly?
I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline.
Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723
So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look.
I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up.
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Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes.
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Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating.
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My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late.
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On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is.
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Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there.
In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else.
The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
Mechanics
This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block.
At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group.
So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault.
There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy.
The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish.
The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group.
Well that pretty much sums up my plan, all critiques are welcome but I think I covered pretty much all dynamics in the game that interact with it. So I claim townie. I have work in a little while but will more than happily defend my position in around 6-7 hours from this post, but if you can't glaring problems with it remember that as soon as the night phase ends this plan is over. The first day cycle is the only time where blue roles cannot be faked.
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On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted.
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I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original.
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Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions.
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Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid.
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Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter.
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On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity.
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On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best.
Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex.
The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue.
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On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions.
therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia.
how do blues react? they claim blue and a no-flip death they claim green to minimise the chance of being killed by angels
No blue will claim green because its fucking stupid.
how do greens react? they claim green they claim blue so that angels kill them.
Your last two thoughts assume we are playing with blithering retards. Townies shouldn't lie and there is no reason to. If any green claimed blue they would royally fuck us over, likewise if any blue sees people taking the plan seriously they NEED to claim or it fucks the whole thing up. They have to claim, and they have to claim before the angel of death performs his first kill.
The demons will know if any of the blue claims are demons, therefore the rest of the blue are angels vanilla town or blue town.Similarly the angels will know if any of the blues are angels so the rest are demons blues or vainlla taon.
Why wouldn't the scum team know who there own player is? That's like my mom not knowing who I am when shes sober. The latter half is just asusmign the townies and blues are being dicks and lying when its incredibly anti-town to do.
Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power.
Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them.
How do we end up with 4 confirmed town? Especially if multiple vanilla's or scum claim blue.
Because scum CC's result in scum death which is really bad for them. And Vanilla claiming would be really stupid and anti-town, therefore shouldn't happen.
I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it.
If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen.
Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange.
the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong.
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On January 09 2012 01:44 layabout wrote: I was just going to quote what you put in the one dated 12/15/11 04:23 does RoL typically suggest plans and does anybody have links to previous ones? I spent ages in risk.nukes filters yesterday and i don't have the time to do more today. When a set up is easily broken, yes. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=237560&user=41447¤tpage=All I contributed to this, I don't recall if I originally brought it up.
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On January 09 2012 03:51 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. > town player feels he isnt very useful on scumhunting > he fakeclaims blue, gets sniped > scum wasted a shot on a green that could've been in a blue. It is bad play, I don't disagree with it, but there is a reasoning to it. It is still bad. Mass claiming is bad in itself. You paint targets for purgatory, you paint targets for the AoD. Mafia could all claim green and suddenly we have nothing except that our blues claimed and made the scums lives much much easier. You miss what the benefits are, a confirmed voting block and it allows us to establish the flow of the game in our favor. We explain why fake claiming is so detrimental and no protown player will do it. It's simple. I
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On January 09 2012 04:16 Dirkzor wrote: This plan seems like it ties up a lot of our resources. If we only get 4 blue claims the channeler will have to banish in order to protect those 4. The one getting banished won't be able to do their job while there is still a 75% chance (assuming demons don't transport one of them) for the angels to kill blue. (actually higher because they can slay + stalk where they know exactly what to guess)
So even if we get 4 confirmed townies they will die to fast.
Nah I don't like it. I've explained why this is wrong, and our power isn't in the confirmed blues utilizing their actual powers, but utilizing themselves as a voting entity and removing themselves from the suspect pool. It preempts the chaos of no flips as well which can be very bad later on since nothing can be confirmed. Read my last few posts, I elaborate on almost every possible objection.
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On January 09 2012 04:16 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Are people seriously trying to implicate me on the basis of "soft-defending" risk by voting Erandorr instead? Now, I can't speak for the people throwing suspicion on me, but I sure as hell don't know risk's alignment, and unless they somehow do, I don't see how it can be implicate me as being scum. Anyone trying to implicate me on this before risk flips is using shitty logic. If risk flips scum and then you want to come after me, then you have some logic on your side. I did not vote for risk nor comment on it much as I had (and still have) a null read on risk. Risk has been in every game I've played on here, and his play-style has varied too much from game to game for me to be comfortable with a day 1 read on him. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 20:31 syllogism wrote: Harbingerofdoom's refusal to vote for Risk seems quite bad as well. He is still ignoring risk and not really explaining why. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 07:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch. @RebirthOfLegend Demons ignore the blues, angels target two, they have a 50% chance of killing the channeler night 1, second night they get him for sure. Best case scenario is we have one blue alive after night 2, worst case they are all dead night 2. In the meantime we roleblock one of our own blues. Alternately, they ignore blues with the angel of death, use that kill on our best scum hunters and use the acolyte on our blues. Also, this plan ignores the possibility of a blue deciding not to go along with it and claim. Basically, I think the plan is quite bad. I've explained how this runs counter to Angelic win conditions. Your worst case scenario is unrealistic imo as explained in that PBP response above. If the angels force us to the worst case scenario they also let the demons control the vote, and if the demons control the vote the angels lose.
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On January 09 2012 07:27 syllogism wrote: Only one mafia team can "safely" fake claim and angels have no means of protecting themselves from seer checks or even the demon hunter, which functions pretty much like a DT if the target doesn't die. If an angel fake claims some blue role, they also open themselves to demons constantly role blocking them with demonic courier, so pretty much only the angelic observer can claim until that role is dead. There is no safe claim until after this cycle ends. This is my last post regarding this issue. If you think what I said makes sense and that I understand the set up and I have debunked all these half assed retarded criticisms then claim your role now. We are running out of time to implement this.
As I said in my preface in the initial post. There is a reason no open set ups are used, because in any set up with a KNOWN role count it can be abused in the way in which I am attempting to. This game doesn't make my strategy viable after the first cycle because of no flip mechanics.
So if you think I covered all dumb criticisms, then claim now. And don't fucking lie in your claim in case it wasn't obvious how antitown that is.
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So scum sacrifice a player and there power because they think that player sucks? It's still not a good trade, one scum team has to sacrifice themselves in order to achieve it and its not worth it for either of them. Knowing the blue roles doesn't really matter that much. It increases the effectivity of Purgatory, yes. But like I said the real strength isn't the roles (as I pointed out earlier they are weak), the real strength is a confirmed group and a voting block. Knowing the specific blue roles doesn't help that much and isn't worth it for the mafia to claim, lose a member just to know which player is the demon hunter, since that's the only thing that matters.
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On January 09 2012 08:09 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. Okay, i misread and missed the color only claim part. My bad, gotta go back some new googles. Your plan is therefore much better than i initially thougth. I still have an issue with how you are going to deal with corruption. Angels are not the only one that need to prevent a voting block from forming, we need to prevent it too. On one hand you say that corrupted town should claim, but on the other hand you also advise multiple claim. What does town gain form multiple corruption claim ? While i agree that this migth confuse scum, If the angels are in doubt on how to get rid of corrupted townies, how are we going to know how to deal with it ? It depends on how the game is going, we don't want to fake claim corruption if the Demons are in an advantageous position because we want the Angels to kill the corrupt townies to keep the field even for them. As town it takes a lot more corruption for the Demons voting power to overwhelm ours, the angels it doesn't. Since the only way we kills Angels is by lynch we will always know if we kill an Angel and how to maintain balance between the two sides. The issue is if we ever just become Town vs Demon, I believe we auto lose since they keep getting voting power and the best thing we could do is try to kill their voting power.
At the end of the day, we can decide if we think its important to fake claim corruption, and we can always have people reveal they were lying afterwards if we need to.
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I am heading out for the night.
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There is only an hour and a half left, claim now or this plan fails.
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No, are you stupid? Claim now and others can claim. What's the point in doing it before the day post.
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On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now.
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Once again yours is a worst case scenario and it uses two conceals which isn't possible.
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On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia.
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Lol, are you guys retarded? I am gone for a day and you guys go batshit stupid and try to lynch me? I have work until 6pm but when I get back whoever the fuck is pushing this is getting reamed and I will finally get on my analysis game that I have been meaning to do.
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On January 10 2012 19:44 Blazinghand wrote: Also you want to know what's more important than the alignments of the 5 people on the RoL Wagon?
the alignment of RoL.
RoL is scum. Sorry buddy, while I try to catch up in this 40 minutes I have before work, care to explain why?
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On January 10 2012 20:02 Refallen wrote: Your analysis pretty much boils down to
RoL
1. Lurker -----> Scummy 2. Proposed anti-town plan ---> Scummy
= 100% Scum
Problem with number 1; as he said, he was busy, and it was due to Responsibility Mafia being at endgame. Obviously he chose to devote more time to that. Who's to say he isn't busy with real life after that, and that he's just bluffing?
And again, proposing anti-town plan does not immediately = scummy. Yes, it was bad for town. But I feel the way that he presented his plan, tried to defend it, in effect, sticking his head out in plain sight, generating a lot of attention, is not something a scum would risk. Especially if scum knew the plan was this anti-town and thus having little chance of getting actually taken up. It is much more likely that he was considering the plan in his head and just neglected to consider some aspect to it. I'm sure if he was scum his teammates would have stopped him from proposing such a plan with this obvious a gap.
So what I'm essentially saying is, no, he's not 100% going to flip scum. Does he deserve a look? Yes. Can he flip scum? Possibly. But not as likely as risk.nuke flipping scum. While I appreciate the support I will once again iterate how my plan was in benefit of the town, if you are all so unwilling to read the game and understand it then that's fine. Ironically, since we had a flip if the demons decide not to hide this lynch we can still use this plan.
To further that, I will admit I forgot that corruption only happens once every other day which makes the plan even more against Demons and helps out the Angels more than I initially thought because it doesn't force the Angels hands as much in regard to prioritizing corrupted over blues. Either way the plan wasn't antitown and I would like better reasoning than anything I have seen when I was still actively posting.
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On January 11 2012 01:27 risk.nuke wrote: Also another reason why I'm a shitlynch, you can just have the seer check me and then I'll be confirmed town. Oh really? This is the shit I am talking about. Read the fucking set up that would confirm you are not an Angel, you could still be a Demon.
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On January 11 2012 01:29 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 01:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Lol, are you guys retarded? I am gone for a day and you guys go batshit stupid and try to lynch me? I have work until 6pm but when I get back whoever the fuck is pushing this is getting reamed and I will finally get on my analysis game that I have been meaning to do. Yeah what was i thinking attacking such a useful and active pro town player oh no wait As one of the lovely people who unintelligently shit all over my plan I don't expect much from you, but that's fine. Please, tell me why I am scum, I'd love to see it.
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On January 11 2012 01:30 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 01:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 11 2012 01:27 risk.nuke wrote: Also another reason why I'm a shitlynch, you can just have the seer check me and then I'll be confirmed town. Oh really? This is the shit I am talking about. Read the fucking set up that would confirm you are not an Angel, you could still be a Demon. AFTER PALMARS SHIT? No, you are playing in uncertainties as I said earlier. Uncertainties are stupid and while if Palmar was viciously attacking you it could imply you are town a player of his caliber isn't stupid enough to not set up late game scenarios earlier on by drawing distance. It's simple scum tactics and Palmar is a good player.
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And risk, congrats. You earned another vote, well on your way to popularity island.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:So, here's RoL. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. This is all worthless, so I'm ignoring it. I'm going to be late to work, but that's fine, I hate being gainfully employed anyway.
Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. You are wrong, there is no "Careful" about roleclaims, after the first black death any fakeclaim is believeable and there is no absolute certainty. It's better to narrow down our suspect pool earlier, and have a confirmed voting block.
Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. It promotes infighting and I admitted a few posts ago I messed up. It doesn't make the Demons as strong as I thought since they get one corruption every two days. Why would it be harder for Angels to kill corrupted townies? I clearly explained that Angels needs to maintain status quo by eliminating corrupted to avoid the demons using there 3+ corrupted voting power along with whatever townies they can convince to fuck up.
On that note, with the Palmar flip, I'd advise against all corrupted claims for tomorrow since the demons are currently at a disadvantage.
Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. This plan screws the Demons the hardest since we can actively claim corrupted to force the angels to dispose of them, and since most likely townies will get corrupted this also limits our pool of potential demons/townies. Since the blues will be harder to corrupt with Purgatories running around in them. Since the Demons are focusing into the non blue pool we are also going to see the demons KNOWING who the Angels are when they fail to corrupt someone, so they will act as MORE Angel checks.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote: So I claim townie
On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; It's known I haven't read the whole thread and am not caught up on the lynch. I explained this with my vote and with my other posts. I KNEW Erandorr was getting votes when I left and fail casted my vote, and when I came back 6-8 hours later Risk.nuke was on the table.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD You wrote way too much and I can't be more than 20 minutes late to work, I can respond to the rest later.
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On January 11 2012 08:09 Blazinghand wrote:Looks like he wants to lynch risk.nuke, probably because he's trying to keep a non-him wagon rolling. Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: risk.nuke (5): Bluelightz, Refallen, -Bluelightz, syllogism, Bluelightz, Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD
Alright guy who insists on interpreting every single thing I do as scum. Let's look at it this way. I know I am town, I can be 100% certain of that. I don't know risk.nukes alignment, but I can be sure it is less than 100% likely because I am not risk.nuke. Why would I ever support my own lynch, or not support the opposing lynch if I know for certain that I am a bad lynch?
Combine that with Risk.nuke's shitty Seer comment and you have my vote on him.
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On January 11 2012 02:22 Dirkzor wrote: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
I had a really long post about RoL, Tyrran and Risk, then i closed the tab it was in on mistake =/. I don't want to write it again now.
The short version. RoL is a bad lynch, Risk is a good lynch, Tyrran is the best lynch.
I'm going to eat now and then i'll try to rewrite it.
@Lay want me to answer your antitown behaviour case? Just seems like we moved on to someelse and an answer to that would disrupt this discussion. I will if you, or others, want me to. I had this happen more than once before. If you are every doing something truly massive it can be more worth it to write it in word or something then copy and paste it into a post and hit preview. It fucking sucks rewriting 20+ minutes of analysis.
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On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: [spoiler] Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. I responded to this in full in a previous post when I got home, but I suppose I can try to clarify this again. The Angels aren't immune to blues. No scum team is immune to confirmed townies. But to further elaborate, 3 roles threaten scum just as 3 threaten the Demons. The Demon Hunter makes a hit, if his hit fails he knows one of two things happened. His target was in Purgatory which is publicly announced, or his target was an Angel. This means when targeting it acts as a kill/check depending if they are an Angel/Demon. How you can't see Purgatory affecting Angel powers is beyond me, but I suppose as part of my plan it's used defensively to conserve the voting block. So we can pretend that doesn't count, although its more the threat of purgatory in the blue circle that should scare away the Angels KP I will concede slightly on that point. Lastly the only one you cared to note, the Seer or whoever checks Angels. I don't need to explain this at all. He then assumes a bad unlikely scenario, that a mass RC is forced from our blues for a counterclaim. Our demon hunter stays alive because he's in purgatory, fine we get an extra vote that's safe. The demons are still facing the role checking threat from the other blue in this worst case scenario. Constantly RBing the Demon Hunter could also be bad though because if none of them are suspect chances are hes going to kill townies. But either way, this is talking the worst case scenario which involves the demons counter claiming and losing a member anyway. Assuming they do it to RB the demon Hunter and force a claim they are still sacrificing the Twister or Concealer which are both really strong roles. I obviously couldn't know this at the time and it's not a valid defense, but the Demons now no longer have the Transporter so this can't even work and they can't counterclaim in their current position. If we no lynch or the Demons don't conceal the lynch then my plan has just become that much more viable, but I digress. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. He never elaborated here on how their defense powers protect the Demons, but it really doesn't. He ignores voting block, zero chance of hitting blues after the claim is complete, or a lower player pool to choose scum from. So in short, his complaints were minor at best.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. As explained, our blues roles are relatively weak. Confirmed townies are a way stronger asset. Once again, now that a Purgatory threat has left the game its doubled edged, one less purgatory for the Angels to avoid, but also increases potential blue efficiency.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. When I am saying why the plan is bad for Angels its becuase that is what I am being questioned on. Personally when I thought about the plan and was considering implications I thought it screwed both factions, but screwed the Demons a fair bit more because it focuses Angel KP toward them more, while their only real choice is hope their corruption can give them an edge, but every town member they corrupt essentially becomes confirmed.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. They would have to KNOW someone was going to die, and somehow be willing to sacrifice them. This is stupid, scum teams especially in small numbers will try to play conservative, especially on TL, and more so when they ALL have power roles.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. True, we can do a slow reveal though, for example force the seer/channeler to claim and see which CC happens first. On top of this, this scenario is ignoring just how detrimental is is for either scum faction to fake claim which hurts them even if it hurts our blues a little bit. I believe if they choose to use a CC strategy it works to our benefit in the long run.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. I explained how this is a fallacy already, and how there is equal threat from power roles to both Demons and Angels, the Angel threat is slightly more indirect.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. Corrupting town (Demons only chance at victory) also tightens the noose around their neck by confirming each corrupted townie. Hypothetically on D5 we could have corrupted players claim which would narrow the pool further. There only chance to kind of work it is to not corrupt one day and use it to try to confirm themselves, which is, once again, a double edged sword.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. It enhances analysis, while giving a tactical advantage of controlling the flower of the game. I don't see why you are against two pronged rape, but whatever.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. I would say that there is an extremely low chance of Palmar getting D2'd. Palmar is good and townies hate lynching other beneficial townies, especially if its only a *MIGHT* on them being scum. Palmar as a good player in a two faction game would serve as a scum hunting threat against the other faction. He would also get support from his scum team against his lynch should he need it, as well as townies who don't want to kill a perceived "good" player.
In short, you are wrong and a CC strategy is bad to begin with.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._.
Lastly, as the tide turns against him: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD You are insane. I was getting dressed and went out after F5ing the thread. Sorry I wasn't immediately walking out the door, but I knew I wasn't contributing anything substantive. Stop reaching, its transparent as shit.
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Sorry about the edit, it won't happen again. I fucked up formatting and it was all written as a quote from Blazing, I used preview and thought I did it correctly. Posted it realized I was wrong. I was in the edit screen and hit submit instead of preview which thanks to Cable Internet and the 21st century happened immediately before I could cancel the command.
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I could of sworn this morning it said we had like 8 hours until lynch or something, did the day get extended?
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Last thing I'm going to say. We can assume no scum will honestly claim scum. So once the blues claim everything else doesn't matter. I don't think town stupidity matters nearly as much as you all pretend it does. But I'm done beating this horse and tomorrow I'm doing analysis.
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On January 11 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote: RoL don't think I haven't taken my eye off you though >.>
How could I ever forget this gaze incessantly staring at me?
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On January 11 2012 13:54 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 13:13 Grackaroni wrote: I feel that between risk.nuke and RoL, Risk.nuke is the better lynch.
RoL seems to truly believe that the voting block and confirmed townies would be more helpful than the blues themselves and seems to have spent a lot of time considering the implications of the mass roleclaim. I get the feeling that he legitimately believes his plan is good for town, and he stands by it even after the town declared it anti-town.
This is meaningless-- he'd stand by it if he was scum too. Show nested quote +
The largest flaw in the plan is not the theory itself but the actual application. If only a portion of the town comes in to claim the whole plan falls apart, letting a portion of townies make claims is bad. Besides it's possible that we have a couple derp townies who would lie about their roles in order to save themselves or draw hits.
Alright, fine, here's my A-game. I was hoping more people would respond first, but here it is. I'm not sure you understand what happened here-- RoL never meant for his plan to succeed. He knew-- *knew* that some people would stand against it, but some fools would get suckered. Here's how you can tell: he asked the VTs to claim. The thing about a mass roleclaim like this is you only need to ask the blues to claim. If our four blues claimed blue, then we're done-- no need for everyone else to claim VT, because by definition we are all claiming VT by talking to each other here in this thread. So why did RoL ask all the VTs to also claim, when it would be easier to just have the four blues claim (the Vts being everyone who didn't claim "Blue)? Why did he ignore this simpler way of executing his strategy that was less prone to failure? Because, my friends, in case it hasn't been obvious for some time... RoL knew his plan wouldn't be unanimously accepted. He knew that few or none of the blues would claim. RoL is a smart guy and he knew what would happen. Look at him defend his plan! He's dismissing most arguments as dumb without even directly addressing them. His goal isn't for his plan to succeed or fail... It is for his plan to kinda succeed. He wanted several VTs to claim, partially narrowing down the blues list and generally giving his faction an advantage in reading the town pool That's almost how things went. Luckily the only moron in the pack was risk.nuke, probably RoL's scumbuddy trying to draw out other claims. You're probably thinking "Blazinghand that sounds far-fetched" but what sounds more far-fetched to you? that RoL, a good player, suggested this bad idea, kept on pushing it, etc, EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS AN EQUIVALENT OUTCOME IDEA WITH LESS RISK? Why not just have the blues claim? RoL clearly spent a lot of time analyzing the setup. Long enough that he should have realized this. No, he's scum, and he's obvious scum. We have RoL dead-to-rights, you guys. There's no reasonable explanation for his actions other than being scum. Let's hang him. Seriously, this is the last attention I am giving you on this issue. You know why your shit sounds far-fetched? Because it is. I am not even going to bother with an Occam's Razor reference here.
I have responded to every criticism while calling them stupid. I have never snubbed a single point and I'd give you money if you could pull up me purposely ignoring a point.
Thank you for extrapolating on something I said. This plan was entirely dependent on blues claiming within a specific time. I obviously fucking knew I wouldn't get universal approval for a mass fucking claim since people who don't understand how to play mafia or how to value certain elements over other ones get this idea in there head that can best be summarized as bill-murray-isk fucking logic of "Form a blue circle -- > Win" which is to say, people put WAY too much faith on blues and what they do.
The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent.
That being said, I am heading to bed now. In the morning I will resume productivity unrelated to force feeding you a tactical advantage, and instead just do analysis.
I swear to god, I think I need to use more shiny colors BC style. I don't know why I expect people to get behind a plan if I haven't used the patented Apple "SHINY SELLS" strategy.
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As a side note, I read a few of the tyrran analysis and I found them well reasoned, I will try to give my own thoughts on it tomorrow.
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On January 11 2012 16:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent. The thinly-veiled ad hominem was unnecessary. I'm honestly disappointed in you. This post is just to say that. If only I was streaming, you could of seen me reword it for niceties around 4 times.
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On January 11 2012 16:39 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent. Case 1) RoL's plan is to have the 4 blues claim, but the town partially rejects his plan. In this case, nobody claims, no harm done. Case 2) RoL's plan is to have everyone claim, but the town partially rejects his plan. In the case, some vts claim, giving the scum information. Why would you structure your plan in a way that is distinct only insofar as it can harm town? I see your point, and it definitely was another approach to it. But having EVERYONE claim helped debunk your second issue of a counterclaim. If we forced everyone to claim as opposed to just the blues I viewed it as likely to get us more accurate claims and less likely to get a counterclaim overall since the scum couldn't wait until all the "blues" had claimed and then decide what to do, as soon as they were active, if the plan was accepted they would be expected to claim green/blue.
And once again, I viewed it as a bit of a gamble to get it rolling in the short time span (20ish hours) I had to get it going. I tried to use my claim as a hinging point that others would jump on, it clearly didn't work because I knew it hinged off the first few responses which were all negative.
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On January 11 2012 16:45 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 16:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 11 2012 16:37 Blazinghand wrote:On January 11 2012 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent. The thinly-veiled ad hominem was unnecessary. I'm honestly disappointed in you. This post is just to say that. If only I was streaming, you could of seen me reword it for niceties around 4 times. Look, here's a point i'm going to make-- even now, most of the town believes your plan was bad. It doesn't matter whether or not you were around at the time to defend it, even now that you have, people are AT BEST saying "well at least RoL himself thought it was a good plan" as their defense of you. Nobody likes your plan. It's bad, and it causes serious issues for town. It's not even the best version of the plan. It's the version that when it comes off the way it does, gives the scum a lot of extra info they shouldn't have. It's anti-town. Like you. So instead of bringing this up as an addendum, you bring it up now after the fact to criticize me? That's so productive. You were here, you have like 10 pages of filter to read, you had every opportunity to try and build on or rip down my plan, yet I recall rarely ever responding to you up until now, when shit doesn't matter anymore.
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On January 11 2012 16:46 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 16:45 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 11 2012 16:39 Blazinghand wrote:On January 11 2012 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent. Case 1) RoL's plan is to have the 4 blues claim, but the town partially rejects his plan. In this case, nobody claims, no harm done. Case 2) RoL's plan is to have everyone claim, but the town partially rejects his plan. In the case, some vts claim, giving the scum information. Why would you structure your plan in a way that is distinct only insofar as it can harm town? I see your point, and it definitely was another approach to it. But having EVERYONE claim helped debunk your second issue of a counterclaim. If we forced everyone to claim as opposed to just the blues I viewed it as likely to get us more accurate claims and less likely to get a counterclaim overall since the scum couldn't wait until all the "blues" had claimed and then decide what to do, as soon as they were active, if the plan was accepted they would be expected to claim green/blue. And once again, I viewed it as a bit of a gamble to get it rolling in the short time span (20ish hours) I had to get it going. I tried to use my claim as a hinging point that others would jump on, it clearly didn't work because I knew it hinged off the first few responses which were all negative. Um, if there's a counterclaim, it's the same situation-- 5 blues, and they claim roles. Your method is just worse for town, and has been worse for town. It was the idea of having the scum under pressure and making them act more impulsively. I preferred a scenario without a CC and wanted to do what I thought would minimize that chance. There are certain things I didn't wish to say because I didn't want scum to realize things that could be mildly irksome. But even those things that could put little bumps in my suggested plan weren't significant enough to turn it into a losing strategy for us.
And as an aside, that perceived ad hominem wasn't directed entirely at you. It was a general complaint at me rehashing the same points in at least 5-6 posts because kept bringing up the same (wrong) issue.
But seriously, we are spamming the thread. I am honestly going to sleep this time and not F5ing until 8 hours from now if not more.
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just got home, F5'd and saw the lynch. I will get out my analysis before the day post tomorrow, hopefully I can get some done before work tomorrow, but if not after 6pm EST I will be home trying to get some shit done.
On an unrelated note, if anyone likes medieval art and lives around NYC, fort tryson has a pretty cool renaissance collection that I checked out today. It's called The Cloisters and going to it gives you admittance to MET as well during the same day.
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On January 13 2012 06:17 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Blazinghand I understand you think RoL is scum and all, but don't you think it might be useful to look through the other filters as well? In case you see something that makes someone else a better target than him, or that exonerates RoL in some way? Focus is fine, pure tunneling is not. I'm focused on Tyrran, but I read everyone else's filter at least once before making my giant post, and have read at least a half dozen of them again since making it. Fair enough-- I have, in fact, examined other filters, though. It's not like the only thing I've done this game is push the RoL lynch. I'll take some time to examine tyrran and write a case post about him, as I have for other players. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Also, your filter just hit page 15 and this is a 72 page thread in an 18 player game. -just saying- First off, it's an 18 player game, but like only 16 of us are alive right. Also we've got dudes with tiny, tiny filters in here, from captain mcbad Erandorr to guys like Mr Wiggles or Jackal whose filters are best described as "shockingly brief". Also I don't see what the problem is with posting a lot. For someone so painfully active (20% of total posts) it's amazing how you don't even know how many players are still alive.
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On January 13 2012 08:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 13 2012 06:17 Blazinghand wrote:On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Blazinghand I understand you think RoL is scum and all, but don't you think it might be useful to look through the other filters as well? In case you see something that makes someone else a better target than him, or that exonerates RoL in some way? Focus is fine, pure tunneling is not. I'm focused on Tyrran, but I read everyone else's filter at least once before making my giant post, and have read at least a half dozen of them again since making it. Fair enough-- I have, in fact, examined other filters, though. It's not like the only thing I've done this game is push the RoL lynch. I'll take some time to examine tyrran and write a case post about him, as I have for other players. On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Also, your filter just hit page 15 and this is a 72 page thread in an 18 player game. -just saying- First off, it's an 18 player game, but like only 16 of us are alive right. Also we've got dudes with tiny, tiny filters in here, from captain mcbad Erandorr to guys like Mr Wiggles or Jackal whose filters are best described as "shockingly brief". Also I don't see what the problem is with posting a lot. For someone so painfully active (20% of total posts) it's amazing how you don't even know how many players are still alive. 16 is closer than 18 to 15 also like this is the least "relevant to people's criticisms of RoL" post you could make You are terrible and when I finish reading your godforsaken filter I will explain why.
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On January 13 2012 09:02 Spaackle wrote: @RoL, now that you're back, care to do some posting? I'm working on doing some analysis, I will get to it shortly. There is so much dumb shit to read.
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On January 13 2012 09:08 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 09:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 13 2012 08:53 Blazinghand wrote:On January 13 2012 08:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 13 2012 06:17 Blazinghand wrote:On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Blazinghand I understand you think RoL is scum and all, but don't you think it might be useful to look through the other filters as well? In case you see something that makes someone else a better target than him, or that exonerates RoL in some way? Focus is fine, pure tunneling is not. I'm focused on Tyrran, but I read everyone else's filter at least once before making my giant post, and have read at least a half dozen of them again since making it. Fair enough-- I have, in fact, examined other filters, though. It's not like the only thing I've done this game is push the RoL lynch. I'll take some time to examine tyrran and write a case post about him, as I have for other players. On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Also, your filter just hit page 15 and this is a 72 page thread in an 18 player game. -just saying- First off, it's an 18 player game, but like only 16 of us are alive right. Also we've got dudes with tiny, tiny filters in here, from captain mcbad Erandorr to guys like Mr Wiggles or Jackal whose filters are best described as "shockingly brief". Also I don't see what the problem is with posting a lot. For someone so painfully active (20% of total posts) it's amazing how you don't even know how many players are still alive. 16 is closer than 18 to 15 also like this is the least "relevant to people's criticisms of RoL" post you could make You are terrible and when I finish reading your godforsaken filter I will explain why. Glad to hear it. If you're town, hopefully you'll make some sort of attempt at scumhunting, addressing various people's concerns about your posting and play this game, and contribute to the town in a meaningful fashion. In any case, I've waited like 10 days for you to post something real. I can wait a little longer. Also, be a good boy and post it before the day post in case one of us wakes up dead. Sigh, its a shame I know you won't end up dead, since from what I read I can infer you are most likely an Angel. I will elaborate when I finish reading, but to be honest I doubt I will get it in before the day post since I have to head to the gym in a bit and there is no way I can read and give a proper analysis in that amount of time. I do promise that I will put something out within the next 12 hours and it will be worthwhile. You can all hold me to that.
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Yall need to chill, I am home, about to shower then you get to reap the benefits of my absurd skill.
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Alright so expect a few analysis posts. We are going to get this BlazingHand problem out of the way first.
First we will deal with BlazingHand. Let's go over what he has done scummy. I aim to prove that BlazingHand is an Angel The first thing is his Day 1 activity. Then we will move towards his criticisms of my plan and his actions after that.
Part I: Day 1
Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read.
So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that.
For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD
A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time.
The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections.
The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on.
Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote.
Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote.
So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though.
Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find?
Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels.
Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues.
Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" Show nested quote + The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 17:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 17:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff?Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide.
The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again.
[/spoiler]
On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy.
On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote:IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less.
On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote: If bluelightz doesn't contribute by the end of the day we can re-evaluate. I assume you mean an IRL day or something here right? We're not made out of time. Bluelightz had 3 hours, and he spent them making one-liners and posts that were literally meaningless. I consider this play to be anti-town. I don't care who does it-- you could have done it, and it would be anti-town. Then he bails. Given that he knew he had to bail in a few hours, he could have made a post with, well, content. But he didn't. No, I meant the first in-game day, that is to say up to 72 hours. Get used to certain players not immediately establishing their innocence, because that is going to be the norm. Whether bluelightz is going to be one of them remains to be seen, but there are "veterans" who to some extent do it every game. The fact that it's anti-town does not mean the optimal play is to lynch them every game for it. If you can pressure them to contribute, that's fine. The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:Also is Mr. Wiggles actually playing? I see he edited his only post to say "can't", but he is still on the player list. Is Mr. Wiggles playing?
On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:28 layabout wrote:Bluelightz i think...: he lacks confidence in his own abilities that he may try to lurk that he has not tried to help that what he has written makes sense from a "town that has to get on a plane and will have limited internet acess" perspective he has provided us with very little that can be analysed effectively i do not think that there you can make all of those inferences + Show Spoiler +"profoundly unuseful" and "anti town" and say that they are his verdict and his damnation. BH at this point in time nearly any case you can come up with needs to forced and isn't necessarily helpful You seem to like throwing your vote around but do you really think that at the current moment in time everyone should vote for bluelightz to kill him, possibly end the day and let night actions happen? if i were the type i might accuse you of "trying to gain town cred by forcing a case based off of thin air." i will not do that. If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness.
On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote: Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful.
It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town.
step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players.
On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote: KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. [/spoiler] This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis.
Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler.
On January 06 2012 09:53 Blazinghand wrote: So, our chief reasoning for Palmar being scum is his relative inactivity? Palmar is an aggressive scumhunter D1 whenever he is town, and today he has been largely unaggressive and not scumhunting on par with his usual-- as though he's holding something back. Is this an accurate characterization of the Palmar case? This is him trying to ease into a lynch and play conservatively. He doesn't want to directly attack such a skilled player who could easily out argue him in a confrontation.
This is the post that looks the most scummy though in his Palmar interactions
On January 07 2012 07:58 Blazinghand wrote:My serious issues with Erandorr STILL STAND. He is hustling us. He is doing it right now. I am geniunely concerned about him. I would be heartily surprised if he were town. Why haven't you posted anything of substance, Erandorr? Yes, you've been away, but you've also been NOT AWAY, and frankly, we're down to the last sleep cycle before the day end during which everyone will get a chance to leave comments. Your actions over the course of the last couple days have done little to convince me of your usefulness. However, I feel that it has come time to weigh in on Palmar v. Wiggles. I'm going to present a concise case summarizing what I would characterize as the feel of these player's play so far this game. I will say who I think is scum. I will present my strongest read. And then I am going to vote.
I will begin by opening Palmar's filter. Wiggles has done a reasonable comprehensive job of going after Palmar, but tunnels are dark and cause, well, tunnel vision. I will add in a tunnel here until instead of tunnels we have a big dome area where it's easy for everyone to see what's going on. It's not the best analogy, but you get it. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Palmar before Wiggles comes at him bro+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 20:33 Palmar wrote: I'm a kite! Meaningless. Nothing much is happening yet, though. About 18 hours and 6 pages later, Harbringer presents a "Palmar is Lurking" case: On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. Palmar responds with more trolling: On January 05 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote: I claimed kite, that's pretty pro-town? 30 minutes later, he makes his first post that isn't an obvious troll: On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: As a public service I'm going to list up some stupid stuff going on in the thread:
Anyone talking about demon or angel strategy either is one, or is dumb. It's completely irrelevant to the goal at hand.
The discussion about whether we should be lynching demons or angels is even dumber. We're going to lynch scum, I don't care what kind of scum, and thinking we can somehow figure out what type of scum multiple players are is just... derp. Bringing this up almost looks like testing the waters/reducing the threat level of one faction (your own).
The discussion about how and when a seer should claim is also dumb. He doesn't need to claim if he doesn't suck. Any good Cop can just make a case once he has a guilty, or make a case to save an innocent, and push it. Knowing the player is scum makes writing the case so much easier.
@Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
@Cwave: Dirkzor's point is essentially correct, however, the fact that he felt the need to correct people by specifically demonstrating demons are no less threatening than angels, instead of just telling everyone to shut up and talk about something productive is however kinda scummy. The fact he's talking about the night cycle doesn't really say a lot. Talking about this post: Palmar makes a couple obvious observations about scum and claims. His statements are correct and I agree with them. However, the person he's addressing with the "seer claiming is dumb" statement is Harbringer, whose previous post was like 13 hours earlier: + Show Spoiler +On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Some things to think about: If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well.
The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel.
The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that.
On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. And had already been shot down by several people. Palmar here is contributing on the surface, but really was just repeating what had already been said. He asks a couple questions, but it's not real pressure. Overall, this post isn't BAD. In the context of several scumhunting and pressure actions on d1 this would be a normal Palmar post, actually. He WOULD slap down a guy who's already been slapped down. Normally he'd call the guy out by name, but slapping a guy down is exactly what Palmar would do. Shortly thereafter, Syllogism says that Palmar is normally more active d1, and therefore is likely scum out of all the lurkers. Dirkzor says Palmar is stifling discussion. Palmar's retort: On January 05 2012 20:10 Palmar wrote: No, I want to shut people up who are talking about trivial stuff that cannot possibly lead us to finding scum, thus simply cluttering the thread with useless information. Creating noise over true evidence is not helping.
But since you are around, please tell me, who would you lynch, right now? I will provide the same answer to you in turn. At this point, he enters the discussion actively. On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. Hedging on BL. Notes that he can't really pick risk cause risk hasn't posted. Says he wouldn't mind lynching Jack or RoL for being experienced lurkers. No commitments or analysis. On January 05 2012 20:24 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:12 syllogism wrote: Palmar: do you really believe that "cluttering up the thread" is an issue so far in this game? Do you think it is ever? It's not the amount, but the content that I have a problem with. What I don't like is people discussing trivial things which anyone can take any side on, no matter their alignment. An example on this would be a discussion on how blue roles should act in a normal game, since that simply is just people giving their opinion on something that has no relevance to the game at hand. This is a fair statement. In the context of Palmar scumhunting and providing pressure, this statement wouldn't ring any bells. On January 05 2012 20:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:29 syllogism wrote: Uh, from my experience you are always active if not useful early on, but I could be mistaken. I assumed your lack of activity was due to not wanting to post here while pretending to be away in Resistance but apparently that's not it. You posted quite a bit after the game was over but kept ignoring this game. Anyway, I'm probably not pushing to lynch you today given how many useless people there are. Also reading steamship made me a bit more open to the idea that we can both be town due to the fact Zona quite clearly RNGs teams rather than just pretends to like other hosts. Reading steamship should also have been a perfect example of a game where I don't post or simply troll during the opening hours to you. I find it very weird that you somehow missed that, despite remembering the game when you need to use it to point out to me that there is a possibility we're both town. You know I don't metagame like that. If I don't post in a game it's simply because I don't want to post, I don't turn off messaging clients or hide from the forum when I don't want to post in a game. It's my problem I'm playing multiple games, so I should be the one at disadvantage from that. I want to see how you're thinking this game. Can you read Dirkzor's filter and tell me what you think about it? You don't need to conclude an alignment, you simply need to tell me what you think. A meta-defense. Meh. No comittments or analysis, asks for syllo's read. On January 05 2012 21:28 Palmar wrote:I was kinda expecting you to ask me something to continue the conversation. I'll just assume you did. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:12 syllogism wrote: So, hey Palmar, you handsome man.
What do you think about Wiggles' late entry to the game, and the wall of text he posted when he came in? Oh, I'm glad you asked syllogism. Wiggles seems to do this every game, regardless of his alignment, post thoughts on how the game should be played out. However, I don't get the same bad feeling about his posts this time around as I did in mini mafia x, if this is his new scum late entrance, it has much more to it than last time I saw him opening a game as scum. I'm actually leaning town on wiggles this game, his follow-up posts were more useful than what I'd believe scum wiggles would do, compared to what I've come to know him doing as scum. I think he should be one of the last people we lynch today. I agree with removing Dirkzor off the board as a lynch candidate, even if his opening post was kinda weird, his casual pointing out things like "that's an easy way to lurk", seems like a townie, rather than scum. What do you think about Blazinghand? So, there are two ways you can read this: 1) Palmar is town and trying to start conversations. 2) Palmar is scum and picked a topic he'd feel comfortable talking about by uh, literally asking himself a question. This is his first real analysis-- within a few hours of him becoming active. Labeling a couple dudes as town is pretty Palmar-town-ey to do. I've seen him try to scumhunt by confirming townies and process of elimination. I don't know why he's asking about me though; clearly the answer to that question is "Blazinghand is a sexy beast, I stay up late dreaming about him. <3" On January 05 2012 21:49 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote:On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Yes, but which lurker, and why? So, let's talk about this for a moment. I think Palmar is actually providing some real pressure on Bluelightz here. This is about 20 hours after Grack first fingered Bluelightz and I jumped on him like a dog on an ass-flavored biscuit. He does this as Bluelightz posts his first of many "hey guys I'm gonna use 20 lines to tell you I have no scumreads" posts. This looks normal to me. I'd ask Bluelightz this in the same situation. Here's where we get to the contentious part of the issue: Bluelightz responds: On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:49 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote:On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Yes, but which lurker, and why? At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him A typical bad response from either a newbie town or a newbie scum. What would you do in this situation? He's hedging, but nominally answers your questions, but provides a reason that sounds like an excuse. He's very hesitant. I know what I would do. I'd pressure him more. I'd ask him "why not X player, why not Y player" and so on. I'd say "Is that your only reason?" and "you really believe in lynch all lurkers?" and "of the active players, who is the scummiest?" and "why so uncertain?" I'd berate him HARD for such a hedging response. I'd be all over him. I think most people would. Now, maybe Palmar thought this was an acceptable response, right? No, Palmar thought this was a crappy response. So Palmar decided to continue to talk to BL. On January 05 2012 22:24 Palmar wrote: So consider this scenario.
You are now a day-vigilante, if you kill a townie, you will lose the game for town immediately, so you have to shoot scum, everything is on the line. You HAVE to hit scum with the information you have now.
Would you shoot RoL? This question asks: "Are you sure?" And it does it in a roundabout, generally crappy way. This is not a good way to up the ante on an opponent. Not at all. The question isn't "can Palmar provide some sort of justification for this" because I guarantee you 100% he CAN. He's Palmar, he can justify anything. The question is, "would a town player use this as a follow-up to Bluelight's hedging?" I don't think so. I feel like this is a bad way to increase pressure. I feel like it's weird. It doesn't seem like something you'd do if you really wanted to lay on the hurt. On the other hand, I'm not sure why scum Palmar would do this either. This is just... well, dumb. Palmar has some interaction with Syllogism calling him dumb again, and we get this: On January 06 2012 00:55 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:30 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 00:24 Palmar wrote: In addition, Neither risk.nuke nor RoL have posted anything in the game yet. What makes you think RoL is more likely to be scum than risk.nuke? I think RoL is more scum because he didnt post anything before now and risk.nuke "promised"more content but, if he didnt fullfill the promise I would consider that he is scum also. Alright, so at gunpoint, your highest possibility of flipping scum is RoL, based on the fact that he has not posted. That's very... interesting. You have little enough faith in your actual reads that you would risk a game to kill off someone who you have nothing to determine his alignment on. This is pretty indirect and noncommittal for an FoS, which is basically what it is. On January 06 2012 01:12 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 01:07 Bluelightz wrote: Okay Palmar, I'm about to sleep.So, ask me what you want to ask now :3 Well, I'm not sure what I should be asking you, apparently you're happy with fencesitting through the lynch, throwing your vote randomly against some lurker. Your entire scumhunting process is "This guy has not posted, so he must be scum". And I have a problem with that. Don't let me keep you up, there's still another day. You better come up with something better tomorrow, even if it's only a measurement of your neck. There's the Palmar we know :3 OK SO Right here I'm gonna stop and go through Wiggles' filter up to this point, because right after this he accuses Palmar. I'm doing this because we should know what Wiggles was up to before he comes out swinging. Wiggles before he comes at Palmar+ Show Spoiler +So wiggles is silent at first, then he comes out swinging with a big post. I'm gonna break it down for y'all right here. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Hey guys, I was sick last night, so I didn't bother posting. I took some Dristan and went to bed and feel better now, though, so let's get started. First thing's first, I want to address a couple of posts that I saw as non-optimal play, and something we should be aware of.
Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 23:40 Zephirdd wrote: hi, checking in.
It's stupid to discuss angel/demon lynching, although it is better to have the AoD lynched first we can't just magically detect them. Scum is scum regardless of A/D alignment.
Sage and Seer should not claim unless they have 2/3 scum nailed down that can be instantly lynched; Just make sure to hide breadcrumbs so we believe your claim should that occur.
...day1 is always boring. Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. Basic Breadcrumb info. Not a perfectly accurate representation of WBG's claim, which was substantially more nuanced than that, and was actually somewhat transparent given what he claimed his night actions were, but yeah breadcrumbs don't support claims they cover flips. This is a true statement and is something that needed to be cleared up. Contrast Palmar's post which says the same thing, but 12 hours later. This basic info is a null read as opposed to a "wtf" read because it needed to be said. After it's been said, it's been said. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:] Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 03:02 Blazinghand wrote: Don't go lynching anyone but Bluelightz if you think he's a legit valid scum. It doesn't matter whether he's an angel or a demon or what. In fact, given that he was staggeringly bad in Student mafia (though he WAS a replacement) it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless.
I think we should lynch whoever is the scummiest. If Bluelightz feels scummy to you, put together a case on him and cast your vote like a man. If you think he's probably scummy, and that he'll contribute poorly (as he did in Student mafia), put your money where your mouth is. I can respect that.
This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. Here Wiggles goes after me. I think his case is shitty, not because any fact he says is untrue, but because his conclusions don't match his assumptions. Or he just didn't read my posts. I call him out for this later, and will address this in more detail when we reach it in his filter. The rest of what Wiggles say is obvious and semi-obvious but correct strategy info that hasn't been covered yet. No read. So overall I don't think this post says anything about Wiggles other than that he's writing stuff. So, moving on from his first post: On January 05 2012 07:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What I was talking about there, was this portion of the quoted post: "it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless."
Living useless townies are better than dead useless townies, especially when we mislynch them. When I read that, I thought you were implying that you would be fine lynching him, even if he flipped town, because he's useless. That also implies you aren't sure of your read, or that you're scummy, because it's covering for the potentiality that he flips town and tries to defend against it preemptively.
Feel free to keep the pressure on him, though, and force him to contribute. I'm not saying unvote him, I just wanted to make a point that lynching greens because they're useless isn't generally beneficial for town. The same thing ties in with voting for inactives because they're inactive, especially if you read them as green, which is part of the discussion on Lynch all Lurkers. Wiggles and I are arguing about my case vs BL. Here he makes some dumb arguments based on not understanding me. No read. On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 07:31 Blazinghand wrote: There's also a way for greens to be anti-town, you know-- "non-contributing" can actually be worse then "useless" because it provides cover for reds to hide. Look, if I think a guy is anti-town I'm gonna try to lynch him. If he flips green, then so be it. If I could lynch a red guy instead I would gladly do that, but I really don't know until i see the color of his blood, do I?
Bluelightz deserves the case I have against him and deserves my vote. And if he fails to contribute and there are no other scum reads, and all he's doing is stopping by every now and then to say "brb" and generally confuse our blues, then he also deserves to die. Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. More Mr. Wiggles being dumb. I think he just misreads all my posts. He makes a commitment here though, which is something that Palmar didn't. So that's all the posts Mr. Wiggles made before his accusation against Palmar. That's where the gamestate was when Wiggles decided it was time to come at Palmar. We have a few questions to formulate based on this: Does Palmar seem scummy to you? How about Wiggles? The other question to formulate: Is Wiggles' case legitimate? Let's take a look! Mr. Wiggles' Opening Statement+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hi guys.
First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured.
First off, this is a bunch of BS. Bluelightz is playing like dick and at that moment had contributed nothing of value. That's not super relevant to the actual accusation though. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Alright, Wiggles. Let's see what you got. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:For example, take this post: Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching " people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical.
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum.
So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch.
##Vote: Palmar So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town. This is a fairly well-thought-out case, and somewhat coincides with my own observations. However, before I pass judgement, I'm gonna take a look and Palmar's initial response to this case. Palmar's Defense+ Show Spoiler +Palmar's defense comes in two parts: Meta and his interaction with Bluelightz. On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote:So, Wiggles is wrong, but he's also wrong in a way that makes him scum. He's being intentionally and maliciously thick. Remember, despite the picture Wiggles wants to paint, I've posted a ton in the thread already. Wiggles is not a bad player, so he knows that none of the things he posted have anything to do with my alignment. What we need to look at is how and why he is wrong. This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:For example, take this post: On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching " people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. Quibbling and argument. The big thing to note here is that neither of these players have provided links to games that Palmar is in. I don't like Meta, and I don't know these guys well, so I can't really comment on this. I'll have to go read the other games to determine if this fits in Palmar's meta, and I don't even know if Palmar has a consistent meta so i'll have to read even MORE games if I want to find that out. If someone could hook me up with some links to Palmar's filters in other games that would be, well, nice. If not I guess I'll have to go look myself ;_; The second part is the interesting part: On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote:The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical.
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:00 Palmar wrote: After Bluelight's latest list of only town/null reads and his wishy-washy-ness with accusing people I might actually just off him. I was kinda leaning maybe noob-town on him, but I don't like his last few posts.
But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky!And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles Palmar points out some SERIOUS flaws in Wiggles' case. However, he still has some serious issues going on-- even though Palmar didn't pull the dayvig situation straight out of his ass, he still used it instead of better pressure moves. His issue here wasn't really lack of pressure, it was lack of REAL pressure, or helpful pressure. ._. So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand?I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case. I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar. All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies. Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post. I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure. The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr. I really don't. And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines. It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on. So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles! *shakes head* ##Vote Palmar He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into.
If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch.
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Day 2; criticisms To preface, he barely posts anything without attacking me. His posts make no sense, and he clearly doesn't understand the game set up and the principles I use to suggest my plan. That's fine, but what's most important is he only really focuses on how it benefits the demons. Now when I thought up this plan it I considered its drawbacks and the way I saw it benfitting was town > angels >> demons. In my opinion it gave us an edge, while harming the Angels, and truly fucking Demons. But the huge majority of BH's posts only look at Demon's advantages, which quite frankly didn't make sense.
I will elaborate this simply. The demons can't corrupt the blues, because the Angels could be aiming there anyway on top of dealing with the multiple purgatories focused within there. For every townie group player they corrupt they create another detective that searches them out, not Angels. At any point if the Demons get an advantage by corruptions the corrupt players simply claim and get killed by DH/Angels.
Because of this, the Angels have to focus their hiding KP into the blues who we already know. This causes them not to hide results which benefits us information wise. The stalker has to hunt down the corrupted townies. The longer the game draws out the more it benefits us as the Angels are forced to kill into the town circle that protects them from being known to keep the Demons from holding a majority vote.
All we really lose from this was blue anonymity in exchange for confirmed townies, and essentially boosting Angel KP assuming they want to risk shooting into a Jailor's heaven.
Essentially, I don't see a winning scenario for the Demons with my plan, while the Angels would have to walk the tightest rope and hope for utter town incompetence to win.
So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do.
On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:So, here's RoL. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote: So I claim townie
On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan.
On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways.
On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan
I don't see how he's town The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post.
On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts.
On January 10 2012 09:07 Blazinghand wrote: Are you serious? RoL literally lurked all day d1 and then posted the shittiest of all possible plans "herp derp let's mass roleclaim" then disappared again. Link me to your case on risk.nuke and I will consider it, do my own analysis, and offer a read, but do you REALLY THINK ROL'S PLAY HAS BEEN PRO TOWN??? Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while.
On January 10 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:24 Refallen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:10 Blazinghand wrote: Refallen do you think there are any circumstances under which a town RoL would suggest that plan? RoL is a pretty smart guy. Yes. In the pre-game someone suggested a mass role-claim too. It isn't impossible for a town RoL to suggest the plan, and at the very least it seems that he has thought through it enough to address some common criticisms. But that's not the point. I rather stay on risk.nuke because I think he's a better lynch, I remember the last time you tried one of your hustlin' cases, though I do agree that RoL needs to do more this cycle. Just because I voted for risk.nuke does not mean I think RoL to be town. The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself.
The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me.
On January 13 2012 03:38 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: Blazinghand please stop being an idiot. Make actual arguments and criticsms. Realise that you will not be right all of the time. Stop the tunnelling. Grow a pair. >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players.
Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie.
On January 11 2012 23:47 ZBot wrote:End of Day 2 Lynched: risk.nuke (9): Bluelightz, Refallen, - Bluelightz, syllogism, Bluelightz, Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD, Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Cwave, Jackal58Current votes: Tyrran (2): HarbingerOfDoom, DirkzorRebirthOfLeGenD (1): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle, Cwave, - Zephirdd, - Spaackle, - Blazinghand, - CwaveCwave (0): Dirkzor, - DirkzorDirkzor (0): Jackal58, - Jackal58
The second day in some ways felt better than the first. The extreme weather that battered the area the day before was not present, in its place was an eerie calm that made the survivors strangely nervous. Many took the time to search for whatever food and clothing they could find, and stashed them in secret hoards. The conversations between the living were carried out with suspicion, no one could trust anyone else. By midday, the air had become unbearably hot. The sun seemed larger and oddly red in the sky. The heat of its rays was intense on the skin. A few would collapse for moments at a time in exhaustion, but no one would find any relief. Those who were religous cursed their gods for allowing them to suffer such a fate. But their will was not broken. The town's resolve to identify and eliminate the inhuman invaders in their midst continued to be strong. Survival. Victory. Revenge. Whatever the reason, those that remained continued the fight of their lives. As each individual formed their own opinions, the throne continued to glow and hum. As soon as their innermost thoughts came to an invisible consensus, a figure was abruptly jerked towards the throne and spire. Again, beams of light from the whirling wheels began to focus upon the condemned. In no time, a scream of pain pierced the air as risk.nuke's body exploded into cloud of pink mist. risk.nuke, the Town Vanilla was lynched Day 2!It is now Night 2. The night will end 2012-01-13 10:00:50. (That's approximately 1 day, 10:13:00 from now.) It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over"
The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later.
Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand
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It wouldn't let me post it as one thing, I have never had that happen before.
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I'm out now, I will post more later. I don't intend on solely tunnelling him, I want to talk about a few other players I just didn't have time.
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On January 13 2012 19:47 syllogism wrote: If you don't have time, you don't join games. If something comes up during the game, you sub out. This is the first time in 9 days you post something that actually matters. Do you think that is acceptable? You've had several 24 hour periods of inactivity, even after being warned about it (for some reason you didn't get force replaced).
Some parts of your case against blazing are laughable. His bullying makes people less likely to challenge him or sheep him? It certainly makes people more likely to ignore him, but other than that it's nonsense. This would be his first game as scum and second game overall. Is this the kind of play you would expect from his first play as scum? Did you look at his Student mafia filter?
He certainly is open and aggressive about his reads, even if they are all poorly supported; unfortunately I would need to know if I can expect him to make sense for that to be anything more than a null. Some aspects of his play do look suspicious, but especially with 5 scum still left he is a very bad lynch.
What do you think about Jackal? Tyrran? Grackaroni? HoD? What do you think AoD did on night 1?
I'm not sure how much effort I'll bother putting into the game today. Some (at least mostly) townies have been basically actively sabotaging the game. Not to say I've played well as my posts have lacked in content, been spammy and I've been wrong several times. However at least I've made it clear that I care about game, care about who is being lynched and established my innocence quite early to anyone with a pair of eyes.
I don't have time to flood a game with 16 pages of posts but I have time to play more or less. I got warned for one 36 hour period of inactivity. And I spent my whole activity arguing with BH over dumb shit because he wouldn't stop, so maybe I should of. I didn't even get to finish a part of my case on him because I had to go out and was already a half hour late.
I don't see how you can not realize what the purpose and intent behind his aggressive dismissive posting is, or realize what effect that has. I have used it before as mafia to get my way, its effective. This isn't something you can disagree or agree with, its an actual style and method used to get your way and it works even better with his spammy style since it gets reinforced.
I said I have more reads to get into today but I ran out of time, I don't think you appreciate how long it look to read a 16 page filter and write that analysis.
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On January 14 2012 00:18 syllogism wrote: Jackal RoL made promises too and didn't keep them. Are you not up to lynching him? What about dirkzor, your previous random vote you never bothered to push or justify? If you've to choose between Tyrran and RoL today, which one will you be voting? Don't say shit that's not true. I have fulfilled on every single promise I made. I said I was finishing up responsibility and would pick up when the game ended, look when the game ended and when I started posting. I said that my first major contribution was going to be a plan I have been trying to wrap my head around and it was, and it was posted when I said it would be. I gave a timeframe in which I would be around that day to explain/defend my plan and I was there to do so. I told you guys that I would be around and post an analysis within the last 15 hours and I did.
So please, before you shoot from the hip with no reasoning see that I followed through with everything I ever said I would do.
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On January 14 2012 00:52 syllogism wrote: Even if we assume your assertion about aggressive dismissive posting to be correct, do you think it's something mafia is more likely to do? Being aggressive is certainly generally towny. How likely do you think it is for a person who has not played mafia elsewhere and playing only his second game here (according to his TL mafia census post) to play like that if he happened to roll scum? Do you seriously think he is the best lynch with 5 mafia left?
You make the mistake of thinking you need experience to pull off that style or that he should be timid because its his first game as scum. You can tell by his posting he doesn't possess a timid gene. The way you post matters much less on skill and experience and more so on how you are. Mafia can't be afraid to get out there and dominate discussion with there agenda. As a player with his attributes he actually fits perfectly into being able to do that.
That being said, combine what he has been doing D1 with his bullraging absolute tunnel of me day 2, yes, I think he is scum or I wouldn't of voted for him. I need to do more write ups when I get a few minutes later but I feel confident in my read of BH because my conclusions arrive from sound premises, if you want to discuss any issue feel free I have nothing to hide and I don't believe there will be any question I can't reasonably answer.
That being said, I will read more and post more analysis later anyway. I feel like this happens every damn game with me though, someone calls me scummy as shit for inactivity, I be productive, then get bitched at for actually producing something.
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On January 14 2012 01:05 syllogism wrote: That's not a mistake. I did not say you necessarily need experience, I was talking about probabilities.
WBG posts a lot like him as town and is a bit more subdued as scum. This isn't a game of the coin flipping heads, people are different and how they play will be different. WBG is actually a good example of exactly what I was talking about.
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On January 14 2012 00:52 Dirkzor wrote: Jackal.. Have you forgotten me? I was so used to your devoted attention!
Assuming Wiggles was town, and i assume that, it puts more pressure on RoL. That was the last person that Wiggles talked about (and attacking me about). Combine that with a wall-of-text case that is actually not very big in terms of content I see RoL as more scummy then before he started scumhunting. His case is just not good, its just long so it appears to be good/solid. Long is not always better. This is such sound logic! I am going to kill one of my attackers further implicating me.
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On January 14 2012 01:44 Blazinghand wrote:Well, RoL, it looks like you've finally decided to make a case. It took till D3 ingame and several days of harassment but you're finally doing something that may nominally appear to be useful. However, your case is against me, so I will defend myself. I don't count out the scumhunting efforts of scum automatically in this game because there are two factions-- you could well believe your own case, and be a Demon trying to edge his team back into this game, etc. Without further ado, my point-by-point rebuttals: Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Part I: Day 1 Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read. To be fair, the actual length of my filter (in terms of word count rather than, say, post count) isn't so bad. Most my posts are overwhelmingly short except for my analysis posts, which are few but long. My filter is susbtantially longer than average for this game, but not so much that it's some herculean feat to actually read it. I gladly encourage people to read and think for themselves rather than blindly accepting what RoL has to say (or even what *I* have to say, as a matter of principle) about any person's filter. By the end of day two, my filter didn't do nothing-- I successfully, erm, pushed an Erandorr lynch. Now, granted, Erandorr flipped town, but most people thought he was scum, and voted their thoughts. It wasn't like I was posting mindless drivel. Your filter sucks and is massive regardless of how you look at it. Way to try to defend the Erandorr lynch by shoving it off on to other people. I didn't even mention that but your defensiveness on the issue is worth noting.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that. For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD
A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time.
The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections.
The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on.
Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote.
Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote.
So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though.
Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find?
Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels.
Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues.
Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" Show nested quote + The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 17:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 17:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff?Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide. The setup posting was minor? ._. there was nothing else to talk about. I don't know why you brought this up. If you don't feel this is an important part of your case, then I will not address it other than this: I wanted us to share plans, so I could promote a healthy town discussion and find scum. Someone shared plans-- and that person happened to be scum, and it became clear from his horrid, terrible plan (at least to me) that this was the case. This is not inconsistent with me wanting us to share plans. I told you I could accept that it was minor and not a huge tell, but given that your day 2 posting was scummy as shit it was worth mentioning as an additive. Nice way to twist your words to justify getting up my ass. Regardless of how scummy you perceived my plan itself as, everyone else saw the way I was pushing it and how passionately I fought for it as being town. You seem to be the only outlier on that issue.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy. On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote:IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote: If bluelightz doesn't contribute by the end of the day we can re-evaluate. I assume you mean an IRL day or something here right? We're not made out of time. Bluelightz had 3 hours, and he spent them making one-liners and posts that were literally meaningless. I consider this play to be anti-town. I don't care who does it-- you could have done it, and it would be anti-town. Then he bails. Given that he knew he had to bail in a few hours, he could have made a post with, well, content. But he didn't. No, I meant the first in-game day, that is to say up to 72 hours. Get used to certain players not immediately establishing their innocence, because that is going to be the norm. Whether bluelightz is going to be one of them remains to be seen, but there are "veterans" who to some extent do it every game. The fact that it's anti-town does not mean the optimal play is to lynch them every game for it. If you can pressure them to contribute, that's fine. The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:Also is Mr. Wiggles actually playing? I see he edited his only post to say "can't", but he is still on the player list. Is Mr. Wiggles playing? On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:28 layabout wrote:Bluelightz i think...: he lacks confidence in his own abilities that he may try to lurk that he has not tried to help that what he has written makes sense from a "town that has to get on a plane and will have limited internet acess" perspective he has provided us with very little that can be analysed effectively i do not think that there you can make all of those inferences + Show Spoiler +"profoundly unuseful" and "anti town" and say that they are his verdict and his damnation. BH at this point in time nearly any case you can come up with needs to forced and isn't necessarily helpful You seem to like throwing your vote around but do you really think that at the current moment in time everyone should vote for bluelightz to kill him, possibly end the day and let night actions happen? if i were the type i might accuse you of "trying to gain town cred by forcing a case based off of thin air." i will not do that. If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness. On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote: Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful.
It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town.
step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players. On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote: KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis. Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler. So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand?
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies.
Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post.
I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure.
The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr.
I really don't.
And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines.
It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on.
So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles!
*shakes head*
##Vote Palmar
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into.
If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch.
' Um, ok so I don't know if you actually read my posts, but I'm basically saying I think Mr. Wiggle's arguments are completely shitty and I make up my own to attack Palmar with. At that time of my post, I seriously entertained the idea that they were both scum from different factions. The idea that I'm at once "aggressive and abrasive" but also "afraid to stick my neck out" is dumb. Let me show you the key areas of my case against Palmar where I basically smack down Mr. Wiggles: " Show nested quote +Blazinghand Wrote: Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar." " Show nested quote +Blazinghand Wrote: So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town." Show nested quote +Blazinghand Wrote:
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
what, you think I wouldn't remember MY OWN CASE? I didn't steal it from wiggles, I MADE IT UP MYSELF and SHAT UNREMORSEFULLY ON WIGGLES. That's right guys, I wasn't noncomittal, as RoL claims: I STUCK MY NECK the fuckk out and attacked both players. I said A) Palmar is scum B) Wiggles is right for the wrong reasons and I constructed my own case. Read the actual goddamn post before listening to RoL's bullshit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=27#532My case against Palmar speaks for itself. I will be continuing this, addressing RoL's second case post in my next post.
This is a load of shit. You used wiggles arguments as a hinging point so if palmar flipped in a bad way you can blame him. You didn't "Shat all over wiggles", not even fucking close. Since when the fuck would
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
Qualify as shitting all over someone? Hint: It doesn't.
Your case against Palmar does speak for itself. You used wiggles arguments to create a point for you to start, mildly disagree with wiggles which could set him up for a day two lynch should the Palmar vote take off and then fail to hit scum, and then now that I call you out on it you try to completely exaggerate your negatively towards wiggles and your hostility towards palmar to justify your vote.
Bullshit.
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On January 14 2012 02:07 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Day 2; criticisms "wahh why is blazinghand so mean? my plan is good you guys... why do you all have to be assholes" Whoa, RoL, no need to call us all assholes. That's totally uncalled-for. We're all friends here. In response to your statement proper: No, your plan is bad. Were you town, I'd think you might literally be the only guy besides risk.nuke in this game who thought that plan was even a remotely good idea. You can't dismiss my logic, once again you don't even attack what I actually wrote, ignore it, and keep writing bullshit about me. My plan was town aligned, but you among other championed that it wasn't and I couldn't defend that because I don't write 16 pages of posts in two day cycles. This is exactly the shit I accused you of doing that makes you scummy. You are dismissing my arguments without answering them, this is what we were arguing about Day 2, it wasn't even about implementation because there was no way I was going to get it implemented. But to take that a step further and to call me scummy because of your blatant stupidity or malicious ignorance regarding my plan is just plain scummy through and through.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do. On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:So, here's RoL. On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote: So I claim townie
On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. Um... what? Let me read that back to you guys again in case you didn't spot the misleading sentence by RoL: Show nested quote +RoL: I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. Time is against you on Page 56? Oh I guess the end of N1 was coming up huh. Maybe my arguing against you during that crucial time prevented you from pusing your plan, eh? Wait, no.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=49#966
Oh waht's this? Day 2 started 7 pages earlier? Weird, I thought that I shut down your plan? Huh. Weird indeed.
After working for two hours, sorry I made a mistake. But hey, lets do whats been working so long. You can completely blow up my mistake while ignoring the actual argument, if it still works why fix it, amirite?
The point is that I was referring to an exchange that everyone knew happened, I just fucked up the page it occurred on which isn't that friggin important, but somehow you think that discredits everything I said? Read the word, I said "I believe." I wasn't citing absolute fact, I was giving you a general idea of where it was based off what I was reading at the time.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways. On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan
I don't see how he's town The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan Um... that's literally waht you've done this game. And you can SAY your plan was good all you want, it's still bad ._. I think this is just like so telling of RoL in general. He claims time was against him in the middle of day 2? He still had like several IRL days before the end of night 2 (before any masked flips happened) and he didn't try to get his plan pushed through for the rest of day 2 or any of night 2. He had tons of time. ??? I think RoL is just like misleading us here. I'm not even 100% sure this is a scum move, as his argument is so bad it's beyond meta-- it's just a terrible worthless meaningless QQ argument. "Oh Blazinghand shut down my plan and I ran out of time during the 4 day day/night cycle". You guys had ardently dismissed it. On top of this you are ignoring that shit changed. We were now down one Purgatory role which was one of the fundamental issues that kept the Angels in check. Notice how you are bitching at me for not implementing something that would now hurt the town and help the angels? Don't get me wrong, It still might not be all bad for us but would require an extreme amount more luck but almost guarantees all of our blues dead really fast.
You can't pretend just because what allowed my implementation on the first cycle automatically makes it plausible on Day 2 because no kill was hidden. Palmar was dead and with him a purgatory inducing role which fucks us in the plan and gives an advantage to the Angels. You know, that group I think you are a part of?
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 10 2012 09:07 Blazinghand wrote: Are you serious? RoL literally lurked all day d1 and then posted the shittiest of all possible plans "herp derp let's mass roleclaim" then disappared again. Link me to your case on risk.nuke and I will consider it, do my own analysis, and offer a read, but do you REALLY THINK ROL'S PLAY HAS BEEN PRO TOWN??? Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while. On January 10 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:On January 10 2012 09:24 Refallen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:10 Blazinghand wrote: Refallen do you think there are any circumstances under which a town RoL would suggest that plan? RoL is a pretty smart guy. Yes. In the pre-game someone suggested a mass role-claim too. It isn't impossible for a town RoL to suggest the plan, and at the very least it seems that he has thought through it enough to address some common criticisms. But that's not the point. I rather stay on risk.nuke because I think he's a better lynch, I remember the last time you tried one of your hustlin' cases, though I do agree that RoL needs to do more this cycle. Just because I voted for risk.nuke does not mean I think RoL to be town. The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself. The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me. On January 13 2012 03:38 Blazinghand wrote:On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: Blazinghand please stop being an idiot. Make actual arguments and criticsms. Realise that you will not be right all of the time. Stop the tunnelling. Grow a pair. >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players. Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie. On January 11 2012 23:47 ZBot wrote:End of Day 2 Lynched: risk.nuke (9): Bluelightz, Refallen, - Bluelightz, syllogism, Bluelightz, Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD, Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Cwave, Jackal58Current votes: Tyrran (2): HarbingerOfDoom, DirkzorRebirthOfLeGenD (1): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle, Cwave, - Zephirdd, - Spaackle, - Blazinghand, - CwaveCwave (0): Dirkzor, - DirkzorDirkzor (0): Jackal58, - Jackal58
The second day in some ways felt better than the first. The extreme weather that battered the area the day before was not present, in its place was an eerie calm that made the survivors strangely nervous. Many took the time to search for whatever food and clothing they could find, and stashed them in secret hoards. The conversations between the living were carried out with suspicion, no one could trust anyone else. By midday, the air had become unbearably hot. The sun seemed larger and oddly red in the sky. The heat of its rays was intense on the skin. A few would collapse for moments at a time in exhaustion, but no one would find any relief. Those who were religous cursed their gods for allowing them to suffer such a fate. But their will was not broken. The town's resolve to identify and eliminate the inhuman invaders in their midst continued to be strong. Survival. Victory. Revenge. Whatever the reason, those that remained continued the fight of their lives. As each individual formed their own opinions, the throne continued to glow and hum. As soon as their innermost thoughts came to an invisible consensus, a figure was abruptly jerked towards the throne and spire. Again, beams of light from the whirling wheels began to focus upon the condemned. In no time, a scream of pain pierced the air as risk.nuke's body exploded into cloud of pink mist. risk.nuke, the Town Vanilla was lynched Day 2!It is now Night 2. The night will end 2012-01-13 10:00:50. (That's approximately 1 day, 10:13:00 from now.) It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over" The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later. Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand This is a bunch of BS. There is actually a legitimate criticism in here, though, a kernel of meaningful opposition in a veritable mound of turd. Why did I vote to lynch risk.nuke? Well, I also thought risk.nuke was scum. I wasn't 100% on him like I basically am on RoL. Why did I vote for risk.nuke? What could he possibly say or do that would make me actually more sure of him than RoL? What weird, unanswered questions. I wonder if RoL would PULL UP MY VOTE POST AND SHOW THE EVIDENCE??? No, he wants only to mislead, to misinform. Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:37 Blazinghand wrote:On January 11 2012 15:32 risk.nuke wrote: Whatever, Fuck this.
Lynch me, I'm done. I could fight to stay alive but I don't have any motivation. The entire town is either tunneling me, sheeping and everyone is ignorning everything that doesn't fit me beeing scum-scheme which is a fucking lot. Syllogism the bandwagon starter have failed to provide reasoning and just ignored all of my pleads for him to do so. But to top it of, town seem contempt with allowing votes without reasoning. Even if I were to keep on living I wouldn't have any motivation to play with a town like this, I could say good luck town but you guys are screwed.
Once I flip, lynch syllogism the bad tunneling angel and every fucking one who used something along the lines of this "I don't like RoL as a lynch because of X so I'm going with risk.nuke" for reasoning. ._. no townie would ever say this. Welcome to the top of my list, punk. ##Vote: risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=64#1270The fact of the matter is, risk.nuke made a post that no townie under any circumstances would make. That is simply not a post you make. The job of a townie is to not get lynched first and foremost-- and him doing this indicated to me that he was claiming scum. So I lynched him. And I stand by that decision. [/quote] This is utterly laughable. I can't even recall all the times I have seen people say this. So lets get this straight. You are 100% on me, as you have said how many times? Okay, got it. Yet for some reason you go off and kill risk.nuke who you are less than 100% certain on?
In what way does this make any sense whatsoever as town? If you thought your shit didn't stink when it came to me why the hell would you change cases? It's the same reason I used for voting risk, I know I am not scum so why would I not vote for the other guy who has an infinitely better chance of being scum than I do? You do the opposite of that. You are sure I am scum, but then don't vote for me. That is just flawed in so many ways and full of shit.
But to make it worse you use the beautiful Catch-All of "I think X is 100% scum, but Y is like 90% scum so I'm fine with him." That's bullshit post facto reasoning when you realize you won't get me killed, but still want to get someone killed. If your conviction was truly sound you wouldn't of backed down, not even for a minute. It's not even as if you stopped tunneling either and acknowledged risks case. It was a "well, fuck why not" kill on risk.nuke because it worked towards your agenda.
And that post isn't scummy, its a mark of someone who is tired and defeated. If anything its town, scum rarely give up. Before I give you the chance to though, I will segue this. I don't for a second approve of the mentality he took of not fighting tooth and nail to the end. If you are town, there should always be a way for you to redeem yourself out of a lynch, you just need to look for it. But if you put effort into it and give up it can be viewed two ways, a defeated townie or a mafia hoping for it to viewed as that and not to get lynched, but in my opinion that is stupid way to go about ducking a lynch because arguing is almost always better than not arguing.
But for some reason, you try to use that one post to justify your vote switch. That is truly laughable. If you guys don't kill this guy I don't know what to tell you. These posts just make him look worse. He's using the same avoiding tactics and attacking me using scarecrow arguments. It's complete bullshit. Your defense is a joke and paints an even redder picture of you.
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On January 14 2012 07:20 Blazinghand wrote: As a question you wont' respond do adequately: Why didn't you try to push your plan N2? No masked flips yet that night... it was still possible...
but instead you bailed.
??? It was in the second post you dolt, why would it get a response in the first post?
Because with new information, pursuing my plan day 2 without a second jailor was no where near as favorable as with two jailors and as I say in my post, begins to start favoring the Angels, you know, your team.
Now let me cut you off before you make this painfully obvious and weak next point. If my plan was so easily dismissed by the death of one jailor, how could I feasibly think it was ever good to begin with, and that since a jailor died had we followed suite we would be in a bad position.
This is wrong for several reasons. Had we implemented the plan, night kills may have been very very different because it completely changes the information dynamic. Second of all, the jailor getting night killed was a low probability chance that was worth taking to give us an advantage. Chances are the townie jailor wouldn't die, and I didn't predict our demon hunter would N1 the demon jailor. So it had to do with bad luck, but ultimately we will never know how it could of played out because by not pursuing the plan we change the information dynamic which means we can't speculate or guess how anything would of played out unless we gain the ability to peer into the infinite alternate realities and see the one where we pursued my plan.
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On January 14 2012 07:38 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 07:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: "Why does nobody love me? I thought I'd be able to fool town with my shitty plan and now I'm mad at Blazinghand. I sure hope nobody actually reads my posts and realizes they're all poorly thought out."
I'm sorry man. I truly am. Hopefully next game you roll town or something. lol kk, I will put in more analysis later today/tomorrow, but if this dismissive bullshit isn't enough to justify killing him, then I don't know what to tell you.
I'm heading to the gym, you guys have your information, make your decision. BlazingHand is clearly scummy as shit.
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I get it man, I really do. You can't exactly back down being part of two bad lynches in a row when your reasoning was shitty. But, don't worry. I am sure if we replayed this game you would do it all over again, since you know, it works toward your win condition.
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On January 14 2012 07:43 Blazinghand wrote: AT LEAST POINT OUT YOUR THOUGHTS ON ANYONE BUT ME BEFORE YOU BAIL AGAIN You have an impeccable ability to piss away all my time. When I get back I will take care of it.
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Unlike you, I am not going to abandon someone I am sure of for some other random easy lynch. The best course is never the easiest, this is no exception.
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On January 14 2012 22:40 layabout wrote: Nothing about HoD defence suggests to me that he is town. But banishing him allows us to determine whether he is the AoD. (it is improbable that he would be banished, the AoD would be somebody else, and they would then miss).
The important thing for now is where is RoL?
Since there appear to be no other candidates are we left to vote RoL by default? Should we really be voting to kill RoL? Yes, obviously do it. With the lack of discussion and my current voters how could this possibly be a bad idea?
On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 3 Lynch.
With 13 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.
Current votes:
RebirthOfLeGenD (4): Grackaroni, Zephirdd, Blazinghand, -Zephirdd, -Grackaroni, Spaackle, Refallen, Grackaroni
HarbingerOfDoom (2): Tyrran, syllogism, layabout, Grackaroni, Zephirdd, -Zephirdd, -Tyrran, -Grackaroni
Spaackle (1): Zephirdd, -Zephirdd, Zephirdd
Bluelightz (1): Jackal58
Blazinghand (1): RebirthOfLeGenD
The Day 3 deadline is at January 15 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 10:23:15 from now.) I mean come on, you guys only have three of my four current voters as scum suspects, Grack, Spackle, and pop... Err I mean BH.
But yeah, clearly you are on the right track. I mean HoD role claimed, as long as there is no CC then he's obviously town, right? Remember that time I said any role claims after a flip CANNOT be trusted? This is that time, if you want to believe blindly and you believe his breadcrumb was true, fine, use his townie nature to prove your thoughts, but trusting a claim after a no flip is just asinine.
Yes, my only case so far was on BH, because he's scum. The guy spent entire day two tunneling me and harping about my "bad" plan and then used that to justify a lynch on me. The entire time he misrepresents everything I was saying, its completely absurd.
Sorry I don't have all the time in the world to sit around here and post, but I have a job among other things that occupies me. As I said, when I get home tonight I will put out my thoughts on other players and if you think that's scummy, then sorry. I simply can't play this game for 10+ hours a day.
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On January 14 2012 22:03 Grackaroni wrote: Can't talk much, going to class.
RoL has ONLY focused on BH, plus he has been too busy to scumhunt for the first 2 days but wasn't too busy to come up with a plan that was anti-town. ##Vote: RebirthOfLegend It's funny, for someone who I have seen echo this thought at least 3 times I have yet to see you actually lay into my plan.
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I did an analysis on BH, and posted a retarded amount should you ever feel the need to actually look at me and need to analyze me.
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I am heading to work though, but there is one last fun fact I am going to point out that you should all consider. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=133498¤tpage=18 This is BH's filter. Read the last 5 pages of it or so. Only the last 3 apply to today. He focuses solely on me and doesn't talk about the HoD lynch at all. He focuses on his case against me.
All of a sudden your #1 scum suspect in HoD does a claim and everyone just backs off of him.
It's quite a coincidence that while I am sure BH is scum and pretty damn sure he's an Angel, he refused to attack or even comment on this other guy who then works up a claim that most likely won't be countered since if they are both Angels, they will both know what Wiggles flipped to begin with.
Sigh x.x
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My plan is good too, but you guys didn't want to use it, which is your prerogative. My only analytical contribution has been BH so far. I will try to post a bit from work, I think I have my laptop in my car or I can use my cell phone, but nothing long winded is going to come out in a 30 minute break.
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On January 15 2012 00:47 Grackaroni wrote: There's a reason why the entire town disagreed with you're plan. . . it's bad. If all scum players simply claim VT then you get a trade off of having a confirmed voting block of 4 blue roles in exchange for them risking being shot or roleblocked which basically gets rid of their roles. The execution was also very bad. The chance of a townie in this game lying to protect themselves or take a shot seems pretty likely to me.
All you're plan did was waste people's time and cause a couple of people to claim VT, which is bad for town. You''re not helping by tunneling on BH, if you're extremely confident that he is scum than you can continue to push him but it doesn't mean that you should ignore everyone else. Surely there are other people in this game acting scummy besides BH, but you haven't bothered to push them. When you can't kill more than one scum at a time, why would you reveal more than one at a time?
In regards to my plan, you are dumb, but I am not going into detail about this anymore.
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On January 15 2012 00:07 layabout wrote: when do you think you could post something substantial by? we have like 10 hours.. I'm at work now, I can't post anything substantial until I get back, I only have a half hour break.
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On January 15 2012 04:00 syllogism wrote: Now that you are here RoL, please move your vote to HoD Fine, and yes, tomorrow you will get more from me. Significantly more. If you want, I can post all my suspects tomorrow but it doesn't make much sense when we can only lynch one at a time, but I will get around to it. I work all weak between the hours of 12-6 roughly, but around those times I will work in more analysis.
HoD, your claim seems of desperation and as I pointed out the correlation between you and BH and him not mentioning you at all for the last 3 pages of his filter don't sit right. That, and I know you are a better lynch than me.
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to elaborate, if I post all my suspects and am right on them, then they will be more cautious in posting so we will gain less information from their interaction. IE: If I accuse A, B, C, D. Push A, while A/D are scum buddies, D will be careful about what he writes in regards to A because D knows I am looking for a more evidence against him.
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I am working and just turned my laptop on in the back. It's pathetic that it even came to this, I have no idea how you managed to scrounge up 5 votes on me, but the fact now is they need one more vote before demons can force hammer me with the corrupted.
So now I have to claim, I am the Channeler. I need to finish closing now, but I will be back before the deadline. I will prove myself by claiming my action before the next day post.
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On January 15 2012 06:56 Blazinghand wrote: yeah the thing is, if RoL is the channeler, he's dead tonight-- I'm not entirely sure why he'd claim instead of trying to argue his way out I can prove my action, there need not risk a counterclaim. I will call my action before the day post, its simple.
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On January 15 2012 06:57 syllogism wrote: There is no way RoL proposed that dumb blue claim plan AND claimed VT if he is the channeler. It's also unlikely that he would have jailed me n1 If it didn't kick in, why would I be the only blue claim? That would be retarded. It was a safety measure to not make me a N1 kill for sure if you guys rejected it for at the time, unforeseen reasons.
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On January 15 2012 06:58 Spaackle wrote: I'm back as well. I'll be around for a while before the lynch.
That being said, RoL's claim seems like a halfhearted last ditch defense. He says he'll explain why later, but later had better come soon. I rarely if ever claim my role in a game, in this case it's moderately important because its an easily proved claim by precalling my night action and to prevent you guys from killing an unfakeable role.
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On January 22 2012 03:04 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote:On January 22 2012 02:48 Blazinghand wrote: I think the plan was bad for town. I think you would only suggest the plan as scum. Establishing a group of players that are town is powerful, but singling out our blues will just get them killed. In fact, I think everyone agreed it was a terrible plan that hurt town. Why would RoL suggest this plan? Because he is scum.
The logic there seems impeccable.
EDIT: Like, given that everyone thought the plan hurt town, I'm amazed we didn't just dogpile him and lynch him right away after he suggested it. Srsly. I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. You're leaving out the part where his plan is actually bad for town, and lets the angels win. Yes, people had poorly thought out criticisms of the plan. Yes, RoL defended his plan skillfully. Yes, it's possible he was a terrible townie who wrote a 3,000 word plan without thinking through the consequences of it. But it was still a bad plan, and he was still pushing it. Why would you push a bad plan? Because you are scum. So I tunneled him for a week. EDIT: Look, I had a clear read on RoL. I believed like 99% that he was scum. How, in that circumstance, am I NOT going to push him, and push him hard? On this issue this is all I am going to say. If I tell you that the center of the earth is filled with tiny gnomes who ride bicycles that cause the earth to revolve around the sun, and then at the end of the game I find out that the earth really does revolve around the sun, does my conclusion being correct automatically mean my premise was correct?
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On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 02:48 Blazinghand wrote: I think the plan was bad for town. I think you would only suggest the plan as scum. Establishing a group of players that are town is powerful, but singling out our blues will just get them killed. In fact, I think everyone agreed it was a terrible plan that hurt town. Why would RoL suggest this plan? Because he is scum.
The logic there seems impeccable.
EDIT: Like, given that everyone thought the plan hurt town, I'm amazed we didn't just dogpile him and lynch him right away after he suggested it. Srsly. I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. I want to also apologize to you LayAbout. When I was defending my plan I remember I reamed one of your posts in a very abrasive way, but I was doing it in an attempt to scare of anyone who would challenge me again.
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On January 22 2012 05:21 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 02:16 layabout wrote:@ Zephird the post was a monty python reference, risk.nuke, dirkzor and i already went through this here and here after the post that can be found here. If you want to look it up click here. Which leads me to my main problem this game: A large number of people clearly were not reading the thread!. It felt like town players were really not making themselves useful or trying to catch scum. I think that Town should have lost but they got lucky with the actions of power roles. Additionally:
- We should not have switched from risk to erandor
- We were right to lynch risk
- There were too many lurkers! Grackaroni was able to escape pressure at the start of the game by hiding amongst the lurkers.
- The actual case on RoL was poor. It did not show how what he had done was scummy.
- Damn you angels!
The case on RoL (at least in general, I don't particularly remember all the details of BH's PbP) was sound, in my opinion. Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote:On January 22 2012 02:48 Blazinghand wrote: I think the plan was bad for town. I think you would only suggest the plan as scum. Establishing a group of players that are town is powerful, but singling out our blues will just get them killed. In fact, I think everyone agreed it was a terrible plan that hurt town. Why would RoL suggest this plan? Because he is scum.
The logic there seems impeccable.
EDIT: Like, given that everyone thought the plan hurt town, I'm amazed we didn't just dogpile him and lynch him right away after he suggested it. Srsly. I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. A lot of town players made bad criticisms of RoL's plan, because they either missed part when reading it, or didn't understand the game set-up. That made it easy for him to defend his plan and make it look good, but really it didn't do much to strengthen the validity of the plan, as the criticisms didn't really point out actual flaws in the plan that needed to be defended against. Again, I want to make a distinction between a plan just being bad, and a plan being anti-town. RoL's plan seemed designed in a way that was meant to hurt the town. Also, for me, his plan was in no way the basis for thinking he was scum. It was just icing on the cake, that he would come back from 4 days of lurking, to push a plan that is not clearly in the best interests of the town. It would have been much better to just scum-hunt at that point, and do something useful, if you were town. Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 03:35 Grackaroni wrote: I can tell you right now that RoL thought that his plan could be good for both Town or Angels depending on luck, but primarily fucked over demons. It could have allowed us to get some easy blue shots off but if the channeler saves people now you have a confirmed voting block. This is why I considered RoL's plan bad for town. I didn't feel like going into lots of detail about it during the game, because it was clear it wasn't going to be implemented. It's bad for town, because it relies on the town using their blue roles effectively, versus the angels using their roles effectively. It comes down to power roles, which I personally hate. Now, if you compare them, it's easy to see that there's a much better chance of the angels winning out in that war. Each blue is by himself, and has to think by himself. On the contrary, the angels have the ability to privately coordinate their actions, so it makes it easier for them, and they now have a pool of players in which they can essentially double their KP, or at least make it a lot more effective. So, just in the battle of the roles, it's somewhat in favour of the angels. Next, for the town to win in that situation, it relies on the town having strong scumhunting, and being very accurate with their lynches, because you cannot assume that their investigative and KP roles will survive for long. Looking at day 1, you could see that the town atmosphere had significantly degenerated by the end of the day, and that a majority of people were playing in a way that made them very hard to tell from the actual scum. This means that it's unlikely that town is going to hit all their lynches, and this is actually what happened as the game went on. So, by removing the power roles that the town could use as a sort of crutch, you made it so they could only rely on analysis, which obviously wasn't going to work in this game, unless people made a major change in effort and posting. Thirdly, RoL's plan was bad for town, because of the combination of points one and two. The mafia's KP being able to be used more effectively by being aimed into the blues, means that player numbers will decrease more rapidly, especially if the angels are able to determine the identity of the demon hunter and avoid hitting him. This compounds the need of the town to be able to scumhunt well, because now they're losing players more rapidly than they would otherwise. This point isn't as strong, though, because it relies on the resolution of night actions. So, yes, RoL's plan could have been good for town, but in my eyes, it depended on the town having very good aim with their blues, and having very strong analysis. So, the onus of 'luck' was much more on the town than the angels, and based on how the game was going, it was a decent assumption that town wouldn't be able to play well enough to live in that situation.
The reason for thinking RoL is scum, was that he spent the entire first day doing nothing but making excuses for not playing. Then, he comes into the thread, and instead of doing the most useful thing he could, and scumhunting, he instead pushes a plan that could be considered anti-town. However, the major point here, is that he spent all his effort into making and defending a plan, instead of finding scum. Then he spends all of day 2 making excuses and saying he'll scumhunt later. This is not the behaviour of a town player. This is the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid having to contribute and who wants to fly under the radar. There's no reason for thinking that he could be a townie, and pushing a plan doesn't make you a townie. RoL had no thread-presence, because he lurked all of day 1. This means that any plan he pushes forward, is instantly going to be harder for him to actually get put into action, and is going to meet a lot more resistance. So, he posts a plan that is not obviously pro-town, and then he doesn't even put much effort into getting it going. If he was a townie posting a plan that he thought was incredibly good for town, like he tried to make out, there's no reason to not push your plan, and no reason to give up on it so easily. This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy. Overall, that's why he was scum, and that's why he was a good day 2 lynch.
Next, I just want to say in general, people need to stop worshiping vets or good players so much. Just because someone played well in one game, doesn't mean they'll play well in the next. Just because someone has a decent reputation as a scumhunter, doesn't mean you shouldn't lynch them when they're acting scummy. Judge a player by his contributions in the game you're playing, not by his potential. No one should get a free pass on day 1 to act incredibly scummy. I noticed this with Palmar in this game, but also in general, so I've decided to say something.
This is all just my opinion, so feel free to disagree. Finally, a decent critique of my plan. That being said and everything being revealed now, obviously I wasn't aiming to completely screw my team over. I am sure I downplayed Angel advantages, and tried to press that it was more pro-town than it actually was. But I still think the town had a good chance with it.
I clearly stated that the blue roles this game were weak. Straight up. My plan wasn't about using their powers effectively as it was using their minds effectively. I knew KP would get lost shooting into the blues since it was likely that two purgatories would get thrown their way every cycle. I explained this. I don't feel your criticism of blue effectiveness dealt with this point well enough. The blues can also speak in thread, they don't need to communicate secretly, its just we might know their actions, but if we don't know their roles there isn't much we can do to stop them.
The second point, yes it does rely on town scumhunting, but its two fold. You have to focus on scumhunting, but you also remove 4 suspects from the suspect pool and you can read everything they write knowing they have town intentions. The investigative and KP roles weren't that strong and once again, barring incredibly bad luck, you would likely have the blues alive for at least 2-3 day cycles.
Town atmosphere was not something I was privy to, seeing how the entire game I never really ever read anything. I was seriously busy and did really have stuff to do. I wasn't feigning inactivity and defending my plan as my only contributions, I just seriously never had time to do much more and I was being attacked on the plan so I had to choose to defend that, or scum hunt, and it seemed more important to defend myself from a bad accusation than produce results.
I will concede that my attack back on BH was largely complete bullshit and me twisting thigns, truth be told I skimmed his filter and after reading conclusions to posts I just assumed what he did and made shit up. It was most noticeable when I tried to pretend he was echoing wiggles case on Palmar to avoid accountability. I never actually read his case and was forced to make up more shit to cover that up.
But the real kicker for me was never having the time to put up an adequate defense, or be producitve enough to not get killed. For the longest time I wanted to do an analysis on Tyrran, I just never had the time and didn't just want to say "X is suspicious" without reasoning because I would inevitably have to out my team in one way or another if I am just shouting names. L basically did that which cost the scum the win in Responsibility. When you make a list with names and you die it can be easily analyzed.
When I was pretty sure I would end up getting killed, my goal was to try to get the Demons to conceal my lynch and then analyze day discussion to see which demons were revealing more information than they should have.
Jackal getting lynched was surprising, but our biggest problem this game as the Angel team was not ever communicating. I PMed Grackaroni every couple of days, but nothing was ever detailed. Jackal I hadn't talked to since the first day. http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/FuP7QYYMfy5
This is our QT, I don't think I ever posted in it apart from the first day. I hate QT and Jackal/Grack couldn't get skype.
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On January 22 2012 08:54 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 08:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 22 2012 03:04 Blazinghand wrote:On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote:On January 22 2012 02:48 Blazinghand wrote: I think the plan was bad for town. I think you would only suggest the plan as scum. Establishing a group of players that are town is powerful, but singling out our blues will just get them killed. In fact, I think everyone agreed it was a terrible plan that hurt town. Why would RoL suggest this plan? Because he is scum.
The logic there seems impeccable.
EDIT: Like, given that everyone thought the plan hurt town, I'm amazed we didn't just dogpile him and lynch him right away after he suggested it. Srsly. I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. You're leaving out the part where his plan is actually bad for town, and lets the angels win. Yes, people had poorly thought out criticisms of the plan. Yes, RoL defended his plan skillfully. Yes, it's possible he was a terrible townie who wrote a 3,000 word plan without thinking through the consequences of it. But it was still a bad plan, and he was still pushing it. Why would you push a bad plan? Because you are scum. So I tunneled him for a week. EDIT: Look, I had a clear read on RoL. I believed like 99% that he was scum. How, in that circumstance, am I NOT going to push him, and push him hard? On this issue this is all I am going to say. If I tell you that the center of the earth is filled with tiny gnomes who ride bicycles that cause the earth to revolve around the sun, and then at the end of the game I find out that the earth really does revolve around the sun, does my conclusion being correct automatically mean my premise was correct? Do you seriously believe lurking for the first 72 hours is town behavior? Regardless of my alignment, that would have happened since I was busy. It means nothing.
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Yeah Zephirdd, one of the most useful skills to develop in mafia is the ability to just step back and try to evaluate a situation as opposed to getting caught up in the moment. I used to refer to this as situational awareness, your ability to look at and determine the validity of a scenario/situation. To weigh motivations, pros, and cons of a situation and be able to figure out what someones true intentions are. To truly examine interactions between players and try to see an otherwise invisible undertone.
I used to consider that my strength at mafia, but I feel I am extraordinarily rusty now and am not particularly good at anything. As an extension to that, you can create scenarios where you expect mafia to act in a certain way, and townie to act in another. But that is usually style dependent.
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I read about 1-2 filters, and around 15-20 pages of the game.
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