EPTI assume it'll start after today. Today I have my final two finals. (GOD I'M SCARED)
Responsibility Mafia!
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wherebugsgo
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I assume it'll start after today. Today I have my final two finals. (GOD I'M SCARED) | ||
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You too sexy not to play this game. Also 1st 3 hour exam=done. Now to my second 3 hour exam rofl | ||
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On December 17 2011 05:35 Curu wrote: Wait so Mig is banned but Mig is also invited, can Mig play here? + Show Spoiler + Yes?!?!?!??! lol wut he never sat out the ban? | ||
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On December 18 2011 14:09 bumatlarge wrote: I think I can handle that. WARNING FOR THE FIRST DAY OR SO I MAY NOT BE MIND BLOWINGLY ACTIVE, BECAUSE I SLEEP 8 HOURS AND WORK 10 HOURS UNTIL CHRISTMAS. you be my day 1 policy lynch, scumatlarge. | ||
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On December 19 2011 05:00 Mr. Wiggles wrote: LAL, you're really an Archon. Too easy. no that's me when I go 30-0-20 as Veigar with every buff imaginable | ||
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Game starts tonight you neeb | ||
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On December 20 2011 11:05 Chezinu wrote: So... Anyone want to speculate what this game will be like? I'm tired of F5ing You will have the responsibility to create a house. | ||
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i want too hear from veryone about lchezinu, prplhz and dumatlarge. mostly the last two bc they obviously started out reallyyy badly with that random vote trash...let's RNG by picking the one player who is a hydra! cause thats definitely random right... also id really appreciate it if someone van tell me who L is and how he plays. i heard hes good but i love meta so someone pile it on! lsb too i played withhim in zones game but he got ai k or something and didnt do anything. how sad. other than that i think i know almost everyone here? i heard chez is wack and he has proven it already! yippy. i honestly laughed like 5 time web i tried reading his last post an nlne of it made aense to me roclll it was like looking into the mind of a loony or something hahaha.so trippay. loony or scum idk yet but jes funny as fuck yea so it's like 4 am ima pass put now before i wake up and my head explodes maybe you euros can discuss while i do the sleepy? pc all and have a good night | ||
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Also I have no school :D :D :D Anyway, on to business. LSB smells like scum. The themes here are thinly-veiled, completely unoriginal "contributions" and accidental slips of knowledge only scum would have. On December 21 2011 01:52 LSB wrote: Why in the world are we discussing day 1 RNG? It has never happened and never will happen -.- Congratulations, you've now said something about every single other player has said already. If you don't want the discussion to be about RNG, don't bring it up. Just ignore that trash and focus on what's actually relevant; finding scum. You as town would know this, especially if you are good (and I think you know you're good, since pre-game you said you hope you wouldn't get shot) On December 21 2011 01:52 LSB wrote: Just knowing the roles doesn't mean anything. I can tell you there is probably a cop, doc, sk, vig, ect ect. What does that help you with? Night actions I guess. There is a big difference between knowing who has who's role, and just knowing the list of roles. For example, if we knew that there was a traitor, we wouldn't do much. However if we knew that Chez was the traitor, that would be an easy day 1 lynch. Logically, this sounds okay, particularly the second part about how if we know that Chezinu is traitor, we could lynch him. However, check out the highlighted thing he finds probable; SK. How do you know there is "probably" an SK LSB? Sure, I suppose if you assume this is a standardish game you might reasonably be able to get away with saying there's a cop, a doc, and a vig. But an SK? That's fishy as hell. Now it might be true that we probably can't do much with just the information that a traitor exists. But if we know an SK exists, that's huge. Indeed, this is the one role that you DEFINITELY would like to know merely about the existence of. There's a massive difference between knowing there's an SK and knowing there isn't. That knowledge is powerful in the hands of town because we know that we can potentially pit scum and SK against each other, or that we have an extra scum to look for, basically. You wouldn't suggest that an SK is probable unless you already had that information. On December 21 2011 01:52 LSB wrote: I swear I played with normal Chez once, but then again he was mafia that time... iirc. Not like that helps make the decision. I'll put him under the category of "hard to read". Lynching someone who is hard to read is a bad idea because 1) it is a useless lynch so we don't get that much discussion / information. 2) hard to read =/= mafia. Actually it probably means useless town. I'll just wait for chez to regain his sanity WHOA Of course it helps with the decision! You can compare his play as scum from then to here, and see if the meta matches. What really bothers me about this is the way LSB phrased this sentence. "Chez was mafia that game, that doesn't help here." Wait what? You know he's not mafia this game? Only scum know for sure who is and isn't scum, and this statement is basically a slip saying "I think Chezinu is unreadable, but here's this one time I played with him when he was scum....but it's not helpful here because he's not scum here." Last thing of note is his relative timidity with respect to actually taking a stand about something. In addition, he repeatedly "misunderstands" people. This is something I've noticed is common among better scum players: Basically, he repeatedly looks for disagreement or probes to find clarification that he can perhaps use against another player. Look at these posts: On December 21 2011 01:57 LSB wrote: 1) This speculates on word triggers. Are they actually in the game? We have no idea, and even if there are any, it doesn't necessarily mean the person is mafia. 2) What's wrong with talking to one specific person... Won't argue with you here. I agree the post doesn't say much Again.... what's up with you and triggers.... Just because someone has a trigger doesn't mean they are mafia. On December 21 2011 02:00 LSB wrote: So you are saying we should all role claim right now? On December 21 2011 02:23 LSB wrote: I'm very confused. When you are saying Is it in response to this statement? If not, what statement is it in response to? If it is, are you defending chez's statement that people should straight out claim right now? Or are you introducing an obvious yet irrelevant point? On December 21 2011 02:35 LSB wrote: Whatever you are trying to say here. I'm still trying to understand your posts and what you are getting at Notice how in most of these posts, LSB attempts to "clarify" something and claims misunderstanding. In some of the circumstances, this is actually comical because some of the inferences LSB makes are ludicrous. LSB asks if syllogism suggests we should all roleclaim right now. The obvious answer is no, no one in their right mind would suggest a mass roleclaim day 1, and I don't think syllo is the type of crazy player to be suggesting that. So then why ask a question you already know the answer to? Perhaps to undermine that person later with a false assertion that they wanted a mass roleclaim day 1? That sounds pretty scummy! Later LSB does something similar with what Chezinu said. He makes a statement that clearly shows either intentional misunderstanding or probing for future mistakes, by suggesting Chezinu was saying that people should be roleclaiming. I don't think that was what Chezinu was doing. I really don't see how that last paragraph LSB quoted from Chezinu could be anything but a warning about the setup, not a call for people to be claiming, as Chezinu says "claiming is bound to come up," not that it is bound to come up now. As he is a very good town player, I doubt LSB missed something I didn't, especially four consecutive times with two different players. ##vote LSB | ||
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On December 21 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote: List of people who have made a post that's a giant wall of text: wherebugsgo bumatlarge Ver L what do you think of LSB, Foolishness? Same question to everyone else, but particularly Palmar. | ||
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On December 21 2011 09:23 VisceraEyes wrote: Re: LSB Has very few posts. I disagree with your assessment that ...indicates hidden knowledge - SK is a fairly common Normal role, there's no reason to assume that it would be excluded in a closed setup. Further, there's no reason to assume that scum would have been alerted to the presence of a SK. Further still, there's no reason to assume that a good player like LSB would slip the knowledge IF he were scum and IF they were given the knowledge of a possible existing SK. It feels like reaching. I also don't like your point about him not understanding players being indicative of his alignment. Like, why? One of the players in question is Chezinu, and I'm totally with him on not understanding Chezinu's stylie. In general, I've got LSB hovering around the 'null' category pending further posts. He basically said he played with Chezinu as scum before, and that it doesn't matter here. Why does it not matter? Meta always matters. If LSB played with Chezinu before, why would he say that it doesn't matter unless he already knows what Chezinu is? He could've compared Chezinu's play from before to his play so far this game. I have never played with Chezinu before, but I certainly would have done that in his place. LSB instead chose not to comment on Chezinu at all, instead saying his play is confusing. Which is, quite frankly, stupidly obvious. Finally, I have played two games out of 10 or so that had an SK in it. It's not that common. You also don't get "probably" from the OP saying there may be an SK. "Probably" is an assertion that there is more likely to be an SK than not, and no one has access to that information except the host and possibly scum. Also, slips aren't intentional, so the quality of the player doesn't matter. Sure, better players are less likely to slip, but that doesn't mean that they don't slip at all. | ||
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The problem is the other things give me pause. Cop+medic are far more common than SK, since they're in practically every game, so it's weird to see, at least for me, SK to be listed with them. Alone, that part is useless. However, mafia isn't about picking single things, it's about fitting lots of things together. That was just one thing that I saw that was weird. Also, the bigger concern with LSB being good is that he made inferences that make no sense in the context of the posts he quoted. If anyone were to actually read syllo's or Chezinu's posts you would see that there is nothing in there about mass roleclaiming, or the suggestion that people do it. In fact, let's see if I'm right by asking Chez. Chezinu, can you clarify this: On December 20 2011 19:15 Chezinu wrote: It bound to come up. Role claiming. As much as I would love to claim a bank, I'm not. If people claim blue the mafia can spot lying townies. or lying blues claiming to be other blues.. oh wait.. thats a great idea! How about I act like a blue role claiming to be a different blue role to make the mafia think I'm a green or black claiming blue? yeah thats good. Ok guys. I got the nazi role.. if your grammar is so bad, I cna kills yous! But watch out, if you correct someone's grammar in the thread. There may be a role that is hunting them grammar nazis.. Ver is trying to turn us into professionals. Its his secret plan. so type dull proper structured formal long writings guys! oh and don't forget to have fun adhering to these rules to avoid certain deaths.. but don't forget you still have to deal with the lynches. I made the assumption that you were just warning people about roleclaims. LSB took this as calling for roleclaims. Do we see the problem here? What were you saying, Chezinu? | ||
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On December 21 2011 09:52 LSB wrote: ... Read the post again, it doesn't say that at all. It just says you guys should stop speculation, which is what you are doing right now ... Read the OP, Ver phrased it in a way that makes it seem like there is an SK... This is new information that I guarantee you that no one else has said before. See? I don't rehash what people say Syllogism is understandable, I thought he was responding to me. As for Chez's, I was asking for clarification on my interpretation of his post. I'll link the post here + Show Spoiler + Town doesn't know the roles. Mafia does. What does this mean? If you have a crazy role to play, the mafia knows this. The town doesn't. However! There are some black roles out there and quite a few.. them mafia don't know about them except for that traitor other there. Here we are day 1 and it is so dark you might as well call it night and its going to be a long night for many of us are going to die. It bound to come up. Role claiming. As much as I would love to claim a bank, I'm not. If people claim blue the mafia can spot lying townies. or lying blues claiming to be other blues.. oh wait.. thats a great idea! How about I act like a blue role claiming to be a different blue role to make the mafia think I'm a green or black claiming blue? yeah thats good. Ok guys. I got the nazi role.. if your grammar is so bad, I cna kills yous! But watch out, if you correct someone's grammar in the thread. There may be a role that is hunting them grammar nazis.. Ver is trying to turn us into professionals. Its his secret plan. so type dull proper structured formal long writings guys! oh and don't forget to have fun adhering to these rules to avoid certain deaths.. but don't forget you still have to deal with the lynches. one thing that people misunderstand about Chez is that they don't believe that he makes real statements. That is not the case. What Chez does is make things more obscure than normal. Naturally, I asked for clarification. In fact I was not the only one confused If you don't understand what Chez's saying, wouldn't you ask for clarification? That's what I did. Are you saying that asking for clarification is a bad thing? Okay, this post raises some more problems for me with LSB. First of all, you warn people not to speculate, but in the next line you speculate that there is probably an SK based on something Ver said in the OP. -_- also, it wasn't really new information since it was listed in the OP to begin with. That's like being the first to say "There are definitely four scum" and claiming you added new information to the game just because you were the first to do it. Lastly, my problem wasn't with you asking for clarifications. It was this unbased assumption about what Chezinu was saying: On December 21 2011 02:23 LSB wrote: If it is, are you defending chez's statement that people should straight out claim right now? Or are you introducing an obvious yet irrelevant point? | ||
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On December 21 2011 10:03 LSB wrote: Sure it's the longest post in the thread, but I don't understand why a post saying "LSB said there is probably an SK, HE IS SK KILL HIM" is the best post in the thread. Really? This is what I said? | ||
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On December 21 2011 10:09 LSB wrote: I bolded the important part to you. Note, mafia is given only some/all of the blue roles. Okay, that's a good point. However, let's clarify to make sure! Would the mafia team be notified if there is a serial killer or other third party present in the game? | ||
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also both you and Palmar refused to comment on LSB. I'd like to hear thoughts. Most of the comments from people so far have been "I dislike this part of your case therefore LSB is null." Besides Curu/Sandro's weak sheep of me, of course. | ||
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current votecount says this: On December 17 2011 12:44 ZBot wrote: Day 1 Vote Count With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch. Current votes: LSB (3): wherebugsgo, SamuelLJackson, Jackal58 L (2): Palmar (2): SamuelLJackson (2): GMarshal, BloodyC0bbler (1): Mr. Wiggles Liquid`Sheth (1): kitaman27 VisceraEyes (1): prplhz Foolishness (0): GMarshal (0): Voting ends at December 22 2011 14:00. (That's approximately 8:15:20 from now.) So clearly a lot of people have not voted yet. Palmar, what makes you confident L is scum? Foolishness, if you want to kill L, why is your vote not on him? Or has your opinion changed since I was last here? Jackal, can you explain what makes you suspicious of LSB? All the people who haven't voted yet: why are you not contributing to discussion? | ||
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On December 21 2011 22:03 Chezinu wrote: Red colors! My new eyes seems to see colors very well! ##Vote: Palmar Chezinu, can you explain this vote? What about Palmar or his posting do you find scummy? Clarity would be nice, since we can't read your mind. On December 21 2011 13:25 bumatlarge wrote: @Palmar: I never claimed blue, I just said I had a triggered ability. It's a semi-claim that I think town needs to be aware is in the game. I wouldn't say mason, but I'm a Chez-Whisperer if you will. LSB has been spouting non-sense. I would revoke any vet protection day 1 he might garner just on what I've seen. In a game where we have too many candidates to lynch I would be against lynching a vet, but every player in the roster can play very well. I think we have to judge on present performance to get our best day 1 result. Foolishness is no plum pudding either. L has been mad poignant this game, I want to keep him around as long as possible from what I can tell. Oh shit, there is BC as well, and he's mad poignant too. Chez, I think LSB>Foolishness>Palmar on the Scumdar-dar. What you think? Bum, I want more. You say LSB>Foolishness>Palmar on the scumdar-dar (what does the second dar mean lolol) Okay, so if LSB has been spouting nonsense and he is ahead of Foolishness and Palmar on your list, why are you voting Palmar instead? What makes Palmar and Foolishness scummy? I agree that Foolishness looks relatively bad from his posting alone. However, from my time with him in PYP:I, I recall that he said he doesn't usually do anything day 1. This was true in XLIV too, where he did very little day 1. I can't see anything that would suggest he is town or scum at this point, and I think we have better targets. Palmar, on the other hand, has been playing to his normal town self. His vote reason for L is really dumb, as even town players stretch LaL a lot. @Palmar, remember we stretched LaL in XLVII with respect to youngminii and we were both wrong. This doesn't mean that L using LaL on you is an indication that he is scum. What, beyond the "stretch," as you say, makes L scum? Finally, L is also likely to be town, IMO. All of the votes on Palmar right now are really dumb, but L at least had been making sense prior to his relatively stupid post on probabilities leading to Palmar being scum. @L, why are you focusing so much on Palmar? Can you explain what, besides the lynch rates you claim he is lying about, makes Palmar mafia? If no, then why are you still voting him? Why do you not consider other people for lynch today, such as LSB? @Foolishness, I realize your town meta is "be useless day 1 into rape scumteam day 2" but if we are not afforded the luxury of having you around day 2 I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on who is scum as soon as you can give them to us. You are a valuable asset to town, and the day 1 lynch is as important as any other. This isn't a town full of new players, so lurking day 1 isn't going to afford you any protection. Can you explain why you are choosing to lurk and post relatively little anyway? What is the disadvantage of you posting a lot? + Show Spoiler + I can see one, and that's you being scum and not wanting to post. | ||
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On December 22 2011 06:23 Jackal58 wrote: Simple. His reason for not wanting to lynch somebody is ludicrous. Particularly in this game. The person he chose as a bad lynch target was Foolishness. Simply because he's a vet. I'm pretty sure I saw Annul receive the same defense day 1 in 48. Ya I know I did. I did it. He has also completely ignored my comment and my vote. You know what? I do the same thing when I'm scum and a single person fos's me or votes me. I ignore it. Why draw attention to it if everybody is ignoring it? I think LSB is scum. He tries to deflect a lynch target with bs reasoning. I think the target he was deflecting from - Foolishness is also scum. Foolishness is not a person that gimps through day one as a townie. yeah, I saw that just now when I went back to read what transpired while I was asleep, and I agree. Indeed the fact that he doesn't want to lynch a vet in a game full of vets is really incredibly strange. He told me to read the OP but apparently he missed the fact that this was an invitation game? Why would Ver invite people who are not vets? Lol. What do you think of Foolishness? He appeared keen to defend LSB by saying that his meta fits. Have you played with LSB before, and would you say that this is accurate? Earlier in the game I asked for explanation of L's, LSB's, and Chezinu's metas. I got none. So far I have that Chezinu makes obscure posts and is hard to understand. Other than that, I know very little about L and LSB. Can you explain what you know about them? On December 22 2011 06:23 Jackal58 wrote: GGQ is another that has 1 real post in the game. He stated in that post that he's ok with a the case on Chezinu and would support his lynch. Except there is no case on Chez. Just some early policy lynch talk but he has no votes. Then GGQ says he would support an LSB lynch but the case is really weak but hey I'll kill him anyways but it's a bad idea. Palmar and L are either both townies or both scum. I know Palmar loves to have pissing contests with his scum buddies on day 1. I've been the other half of that duo with him before. And their argument is so fucking inane it's well within the realm of possibility they are both scum. I'm undecided on both as yet. But I'll wager whatever the one flips the other will as well. So ya right now I'd be cool with everybody consolidating their votes on LSB. He should be the first domino to fall for team red. Yes; Chezinu is definitely the easy target for people to want to lynch based on actually not reading anything in the thread, since his playstyle so far has been that of obscurity. I tend to agree with you as well on Palmar+L, although I think they are far more likely to both be town than both scum. Wow, this is fucking weird. I agreed with you with almost everything. I think the world is ending. | ||
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On December 22 2011 06:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: ##Vote: Chezinu Working on finals stuff. Consider it a placeholder if you will. what the you scum, bro? you were this inactive in couple's therapy too. Every now and then you'd pop in and say "hey I'll be back later" ... Anyone else find RoL suspicious, or am I seeing things? | ||
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On December 22 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote: Part 2: Picking and Choosing. Who to lynch day 1 LSB: Well, he hasn't come up with a mega plan yet, but I find wbg analysis against him to be quite weak. The fact is I expect better play from LSB overall. One point I didn't see brought up is that LSB seems to be lacking confidence, Town LSB is supremely confident, I don't get that "feel" here. his defense seems ok. I wanted to comment on him since he was a lynch target at some point. What part about me calling LSB timid isn't saying he lacks confidence? Did you even read my case? Did you read the posts other players have made about LSB? I don't like the vibe you're giving off. | ||
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On December 22 2011 07:10 VisceraEyes wrote: WBG, do you consider the bolded word in LSB's ultimate read of you post your case to be a slip? He's referring to your case on him as tunneling, why would it be a 'bus' unless he were considering you to be scum making a case on him (who he knows is scum?) I know I argued that vet players don't typically make this kind of slip, but...read it. If he were town, why would he phrase it that way? Why would he not say something like "...too much like tunneling townie than scummy attempt to push a mislynch"? I still don't like the slips you found, but what do you think of mine? The rest of LSB's posts since your case have been pretty bad universally, and I'm ultimately willing to add my token to his kettle. ##Vote: LSB what are you implying? That I am scum with LSB based on one word he said? That LSB is trying to sacrifice himself if he can get me mislynched afterward? I didn't actually notice this. It probably means LSB is indeed scum, has no confidence in his play anymore, and is trying to do as much damage as he can before he falls by subtly calling this a bus. I can assure you that LSB and I are not scum together. I have always hated bussing, except in extraordinary circumstances where it is absolutely necessary. Indeed, if you don't believe me on that, go check out Mini X, where I basically soft defended Wiggles all of day 1 and actually messed up by not bussing him, because I really didn't want to and I thought there were other ways of approaching the game in self-preservation than killing my own teammate. | ||
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On December 22 2011 07:28 VisceraEyes wrote: WBG, that's not what I was implying at all. If I thought that, I wouldn't have directed the question at you would I? Never does any good to try and convince scum that they're scum, amirite? No, I wanted your opinion. It looked like a slip to me, and you've proven to be keen on looking for slips, so I wanted your opinion on it. It read to me as an accident...like, he posted what his actual thought process was instead of what his revised, "town"-persona thought-process should have been. I've got you as a pretty strong town read atm, don't fuck it up with paranoia.  No worries, that was a very good catch. I agree with you somewhat on that; I think it's actually an intentional slip. The term "bus," afaik, only means one mafia player who pushes his own teammate to lynch. Throwing his teammate under the bus, if you will. In this case LSB used it such that he wanted someone to catch it and think it was true. Thus, I think it was intentional, and I think he wanted people to think I am scum bussing him. Not subtle enough, LSB! You die now. | ||
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On December 22 2011 07:27 SamuelLJackson wrote: @GMarshal I want to you to answer this honestly: How carefully are you reading the thread? /sandroba sandro was it you or curu who initially agreed with the LSB case I made? Can you explain your current thoughts on the game? What do you think of Palmar/L? RoL? Foolishness? | ||
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On December 22 2011 07:46 SamuelLJackson wrote: It was me. I think I signed that post. I don't want palmar/L lynched. I don't like how foolishness is playing, but I've seen him play like this as town. Even in this roster he is likely to get shot if he is town night 1, because he usually engages turbo mode day2 onwards, so I don't agree with lynching him today either. Whoever is here day 2 should hold foolishness to a high standard day 2 though if he survives. RoL isn't doing shit and I wouldn't mind seeing him gone. Yeah, I agree with you. The weird thing about Foolishness, for me, is that he should know that lurking today should offer him no protection. In a game full of people who KNOW he's good, why would he lurk day 1 as town? How does that further the goal of surviving to crush the scum day 2 onwards? I fully understand why he does it in other games. However, I've asked for his opinions several times and he doesn't give much. He says LSB's meta fits his town meta, but then Jackal says the opposite. I really don't like how Foolish is playing right now. Do you think GM is more likely to be scum or town at this point? | ||
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On December 22 2011 07:59 SamuelLJackson wrote: Well despite the fact that it is clear that he is not reading the thread carefully, the fact that he pointed out several "scummy" things in our behavior coupled with his previous inclination to getting us killed for being hydra alone and NOT voting for us, but voting kita very late without even trying to get him lynch seems much more likely to be scum. I'm also getting cold feet on LSB since there is no one REALLY pushing him and no fail proof case and yet he is pilling up votes like they are nothing. yep, the only thing that is giving me pause about LSB is how many easy votes he's received recently. I'd be completely fine with lynching GGQ or GM, as well. Neither of them seem to have any intention of actually doing anything. GGQ just pointed out that GM apparently repeated him, which is simply an indication that they both are dead weight at this point. The case on LSB is stronger than either of these two other players, though. I'd rather lynch LSB. If someone can make a good convincing reason why we shouldn't lynch LSB, please do so now. I'd be willing to switch to GGQ or GM if it is convincing enough. | ||
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So the best of your abilities is repeatedly posting one liners and not actually contributing to useful discussion? What do you think of LSB? Of GM? Foolishness? RoL? Palmar/L? How do you feel about the fact that I want to kill you? | ||
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On December 22 2011 08:15 Palmar wrote: I don't understand why GGQ would be a better lynch target than BC, if we're defaulting to a lurker. I'm going to read LSB's filter before I go to bed, I found WBG's initial case dumb/forced. That doesn't say anything about LSB's alignment though. I'd love to hear what your actual criticisms of my case are, instead of repeatedly saying that it is dumb/forced. At no point did I accuse LSB of being an SK, either. I actually just thought that mafia could be given information about the existence of one. Qatol's answer to my question does not further anything on that front, so only mafia know what mafia know. Thus, at best, the whole part about LSB mentioning the SK is irrelevant. That doesn't detract from the actual case I made, which is that LSB is being timid, misconstruing people's posts (such as Chezinu and syllogism) and not actually doing anything. Has LSB tried to scumhunt? Has he put up a convincing defense of himself? Has he provided useful things to town discussion other than simply claiming he has done so? Since the answers to all of those questions are no, I want him to die. | ||
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On December 22 2011 08:32 Palmar wrote: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Whenever people revert to using real life excuses for not contributing I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt to prove themselves another day, reason is that I'd like to be extended the same opportunity (which I was, for example in early experimental haunted mafia), if it ever comes up in games. I would have preferred he just straight up told us he didn't have time and sheeped his strongest townread instead of throwing out that case, but I'm not sure GM would ever do that. I won't directly oppose a lynch on him, if that's what you're asking, but I'd prefer lynching someone that is around to defend himself. Unless of course GM has the time to play now, in which case I'll stay up for an hour more to get a better read on him. Did this work in PYP:I with chaoser? Why the hell should we believe anything anyone says just because it's possibly a RL excuse? Did it work for me in XLV when Dropbear claimed real life excuses for being replaced, so Curu+I thought he was more town? Why are you using out-of-game things to defend GM when you accused L of using a non-game-relevant reason to vote you? | ||
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Check this out: On December 22 2011 06:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Did anyone notice that aside from a post about rng, random accusations with no merit and posting random fluff posts talking generalities about things Palmar had provided nothing of any substance in any town way, including this post? Hell up to this post most of them were total spam posts. Has anyone noticed he made a few more fluff posts then followed it up on a case against GM for wanting to policy lynch a Hydra? Account sharers have proven to ruin games and have an advantage other players don't. Starting a game off before any information is gleaned by saying "lets off the hydras" is not a terrible post. Had he been actively pushing it and bullying people to do so maybe. He then makes a post to "further incriminate" gm then again attacks me based off my post I made saying that I only covered 3 points. One of those points is "vague" to only players who aren't seriously reading this thread, one point was on talking about something that was so obviously scummy and was something palmar said was pro town (its not) that I had to comment. Even if someone says something ages before you post, if it scummy you comment on it. People do not get a free pass on old comments. I then told him to stop making vague posts. He was doing so till that point and only started giving somewhat non shite posts after I called him out. So apparently 3 valid points. Now, I only respond to these posts as he was tossing shit my way for my play. Up until I called him out Palmar was playing like shite. However he is actively playing so I am inclined to let him continue posting to give us a better read on him. As for the game at hand as it is now. LSB should be hanged. Anyone go filter him. He hasn't really defended himself at all from any heat given, nor has he provided any real analysis on anyone. Near every post of his seems to be quoting people asking questions of clarification on shite rather than contributing in any meaningful manner. Near none of his posts say fuck all about himself and most of them are short as the "long ones" are only long due to quote usage. So until he comes out with anything substantial to keep him alive im voting him. ##vote lsb BC suspects Palmar, but ultimately suspects LSB more and votes him. Still, suspicion of Palmar. Chezinu: votes Palmar, but isn't viewed seriously (at least by me) because he had no reasoning for his vote. I asked him for one, but he hasn't been around and hasn't provided one. Bum: same thing as Chezinu. L: voting Palmar, albeit his vote reason is shit. There are three things that are troubling me right now: 1. LSB has disappeared and he is drawing votes very easily. This makes me unsure of him being scum. 2. Palmar defends GM on game-irrelevant grounds, but attacks L with the accusation that L is using game-irrelevant reasons to vote him. 3. At least four other people right now suspect Palmar, but he has received no real attention all game. We so far have just been saying "oh he looks like his normal town," which is certainly true, but isn't conclusive of his alignment. With a lack of pressure, if Palmar is scum he could do anything he wants. sandro, what do you think of Palmar in light of what he said about GM? Same question to anyone else who is willing to contribute to town discussion. | ||
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You're beginning to cause me to suspect you. And you were pretty townie to me up till very recently. | ||
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On December 22 2011 09:16 SamuelLJackson wrote: Really I feel like giving GM another day, he is acting too weak and I think as scum he would be able to get something together quickly just to get us off him. The feeling I get from his posting right now is that he can't really come up with something useful and doesn't want to give us something random that might hurt the town just to get off the hook. Palmar seems okayish to me, the only thing that is bothering me a bit is that he is focusing too much on arguing with people for no real benefit. Right now I feel the best move is to go ahead and lynch LSB, because any quick bandwagons we can come up with this late have very little chance of actually hitting scum. this sandro? I agree with this post almost in entirety; VE, this is essentially my opinion about LSB/GM right now. Basically, while I'm not 100% comfortable with lynching LSB right now, there is nothing better to do but to carry out the lynch, since a GM lynch would be arguably shakier and there is not much time left to actually build voting support for it. What troubles me is that there are many players who so far have not yet voted, or who voted someone earlier in the game but haven't changed yet. Examples include prpl, bum, and Chezinu, just off what I remember. Prpl especially has done nothing all game, he even "RNGed" you, VE. Upon rereading the thread I keep having second thoughts, but I might just be paranoid. | ||
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On December 22 2011 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah, it's buyer's remorse. Okay guys, let it be known that I'm compromising and my preferred lynch is GM at this point. ##Unvote: GMarshal ##Vote: LSB I hope you're wrong about this WBG, because I find myself also wary of chicanery during the building of this wagon. And let it be known that even with my vote, we're like around 35% short of what we actually need to lynch. Basically, I'm ashamed of the activity of this town. For shame, vets. wait, you hope I'm wrong about LSB being scum? good god that's a terrible thing to say | ||
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Also bum doesn't appear on the voting list from what I can tell, but I think he voted. Wrong format, perhaps. Foolishness, Sheth, any explanation for your lack of vote so far? Late votes and vote reasons make it difficult for town to read you. Foolishness, you of all people should know this. | ||
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On December 22 2011 09:51 flamewheel wrote: good afternoon everybody wat | ||
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We kill LSB today, and if he flips town and if a scum is not shot tonight then GM dies tomorrow. Of course, if a scum dies then GM is spared. If GM is town he's obviously shooting tonight. We give him the target, he claims it before the night is over. If he's wrong, he dies, if he's right, we get a scum. This is a no lose situation, either way we get a scum, so lynch the fuck out of LSB. | ||
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So we lynch LSB. If LSB is town GM is not clear and we make him shoot. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:12 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I'd rather lynch GM and have LSB use his vig shot for us. I don't know who I'd want them to shoot anyway though. open your eyes Sheth, they BOTH claimed the same thing. It doesn't matter who uses his vig shot. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:13 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I'd say leave them both alive, and only let them shoot each other. Clearly the one who really was vigilante prevails. Or if there both vigilante they both die. o.o; This seems like a solid idea to me. And we could use our lynch today on someone else. Yeah, and who would that someone else be? The two cases today were GM and LSB. There were literally no others. If we choose now, five hours before lynch, to not lynch either of these guys, we end up with a no-lynch. You can't pick someone else now, it's too late. All the Europeans are asleep. Kill LSB. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:14 LSB wrote: You are completely ignoring the possibility of a bus. Which is one of my favorite mafia plays. See Harry Potter Mafia. Just saying, your plan is flawed. Follow mine. So you're claiming scum? | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:14 LSB wrote: You are completely ignoring the possibility of a bus. Which is one of my favorite mafia plays. See Harry Potter Mafia. Just saying, your plan is flawed. Follow mine. someone tell me what the fuck that is if that isn't claiming scum? | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:18 LSB wrote: No I'm saying your idea is stupid because 1) Even if I flip it promotes no resolution on GM. 2) It completely ignores the fact that there might be two vigs 3) It automatically assumes that I am town The only good thing your idea does is waste a town KP. Which surprisingly is very favorable to the mafia. that's not a bus! a bus is one scum killing another scum, his teammate. So why are you telling me I'm ignoring the possibility of a bus? The only way your wagon can be a bus is if you are scum and at least one or more of the people on your wagon is scum. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:22 LSB wrote: that still isn't answering any of the flaws. Basically what you are doing is sticking your thumbs in your ears and going "I can't hear you I can't hear you" I'll flip green, and you'll pass it off as "oh LSB played bad" rather than realizing how stupid of a play it is to let me die. why do you keep avoiding the question? You essentially just claimed scum by saying I'm ignoring the possibility of a bus. Fuck that, you're dying for sure now. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:28 LSB wrote: Lol, just saying, didn't you say that I'm SK? Due to a quote endquote scumslip? All I am saying is that it doesn't matter how you put it, your idea is bad even if I am mafia. And of course, it is even worse if I'm town no, I did not call you SK. Ever. That was you claiming I called you SK. And Palmar being stubborn. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:51 LSB wrote: Reposting because it is relevant and I like to watch my post count go up And this: On December 21 2011 10:11 wherebugsgo wrote: Okay, that's a good point. However, let's clarify to make sure! Would the mafia team be notified if there is a serial killer or other third party present in the game? Which proves what? That's right, nothing. | ||
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On December 22 2011 13:16 prplhz wrote: It's not like this game at any point has been impressive in terms of activity. wow, this is ironic coming from you. What have you done all game? RNG VE? You have no room to talk when it comes to activity. Why are you assuming there are 3 scum, wiggles, when the total mafia number is listed at 4? | ||
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On December 22 2011 13:46 prplhz wrote: Hey, I don't have to take that. I've been busy, but I've still been reasonably active, I've tried to contribute and I've tried to be transparent. There are a ton of people in this thread who have been less active than me, your case that no one bought into because it wasn't really that good doesn't make you the Emperor of Activityville. I'm up to date on the thread, I have a ton of notes and I have been around sporadically to comment on things, I didn't just post a single post and then left. what are you talking about? LSB is getting lynched. I have been by far the most vocal advocate of getting him lynched. You have done nothing and your vote has been wasted. You have a ton of notes? Really? Mind sharing some of them with us? | ||
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On December 22 2011 13:51 SamuelLJackson wrote: I'm inclined to believe GM's claim. He has no reason to counterclaim at this point if he is scum, there's no real gain to it for scum to fake that. Likewise LSB's claim makes no sense for scum either unless he has a night role that he want to use before death. That their role names are different should absolutely not be factored in as you can be sure Ver would have named identical roles different things especially after the debacle of the previous Incognito game where people were using role names and abilities to try to determine alignment. What they've both claimed is a role that is impossible to fulfil as scum. At this point I'd rather lynch Chezinu or Foolishness, both of whom have shown that despite prodding neither is posting with Town's interests at heart. Chezinu is being blatantly anti-Town with his posting still under the disguise of "Chezinu is Chezinu." 10 minutes to lynch, are any of you willing to consolidate on one or the other? did you forget that mafia are told about the blue roles? How can we be sure about the claims with that in mind? I agree that GM would probably not CC if he was scum. But, this is tricky because mafia know the blues. | ||
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we should choose who GM should shoot. Sandro what do you think? Who should be shot? | ||
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On December 22 2011 15:16 Foolishness wrote: No. Assume GM is town. Most likely he'll choose to shoot tonight. If we pick for him (even give him an approved list) and give him a town to shoot, mafia will just let him shoot the town and kill himself. If we give him a mafia to shoot, mafia will just roleblock/kill him. If we let GM decide for himself, then mafia are left debating on how to handle the situation. yeah, that sounds good. We should have him claim right before deadline so that we have a confirmed town if he dies. Fair enough GM? | ||
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On December 23 2011 09:59 Jackal58 wrote: I've seen BC do some dumb stuff as town, so ya it's in the realm of possibilities. yeah, as town. I'm pretty sure one of the best scum players on this forum wouldn't fall to basic scumtells that prplhz pointed out. one of prpl's points was that "maybe BC doesn't enjoy playing scum," which is just ludicrous, given his reputation. What's bothering me more is not that prpl made the case, since prpl probably doesn't know BC's play that well, but the fact that Palmar said he agreed with everything he said. That's weird. On December 23 2011 10:03 prplhz wrote: No idea, but I doubt his town play would be this bad. If he is town he'll improve, if not then I don't see why I should think that he's town. Who are you looking into right now? IMO from reputation and what I know from reading past games BC's town play is not nearly as good as his scum play (no offense, BC) I'll be posting my thoughts closer to deadline. I doubt I'll be shot, but I don't want to influence scum hits by calling my suspicions now. | ||
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On December 23 2011 10:36 Palmar wrote: Why don't you let BC defend himself WBG? Do you have a problem with him being forced to do something this game? nope, I just have a problem with bad arguments. prplhz's arguments for BC being scum are bad, but his effort is town-like. Your arguments have been bad and your effort is not town-like. You agree with bad arguments for BC being scum despite knowing BC better than prplhz. What gives? | ||
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Also, what does excess hostility have to do with someone's alignment? | ||
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All I remember is him calling out Palmar on bad play, not posting to defend himself. This is a legitimate question (posting from phone atm) though, I'm just wondering where you're getting this. | ||
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On December 23 2011 14:06 Foolishness wrote: noooo not RoL! You could have shot bugs! what the | ||
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On December 23 2011 10:09 wherebugsgo wrote: yeah, as town. I'm pretty sure one of the best scum players on this forum wouldn't fall to basic scumtells that prplhz pointed out. one of prpl's points was that "maybe BC doesn't enjoy playing scum," which is just ludicrous, given his reputation. What's bothering me more is not that prpl made the case, since prpl probably doesn't know BC's play that well, but the fact that Palmar said he agreed with everything he said. That's weird. On December 23 2011 12:04 wherebugsgo wrote: nope, I just have a problem with bad arguments. prplhz's arguments for BC being scum are bad, but his effort is town-like. Your arguments have been bad and your effort is not town-like. You agree with bad arguments for BC being scum despite knowing BC better than prplhz. What gives? bam son. however, we lost a LOT of townies last night. We need to hit scum today. I say we kill Foolishness. | ||
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If GM shot at a townie does it mean he would kill both the townie and himself? Or would GM just die and the townie would live? If GM would have simply died and RoL would've survived then we know nothing about RoL's alignment. However in the former case we have to lynch him. | ||
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On December 23 2011 18:41 prplhz wrote: Hey guys I like GGQ's explanation of night actions. VisceraEyes bombed bumatlarge in Election Mafia on a somewhat flimsy reasonable, he's crazy like that. I think he shot GMarshal. I don't think mafia would shoot VisceraEyes on day1, which is why VisceraEyes shouldn't shoot on day1 if he's blue but again, he's crazy like that. I think GMarshal was roleblocked last night, because who else would mafia roleblock? If he was roleblocked and he survived there could have been massive chaos day2 and he's a claimed blue who said he'd shoot somebody in the face, scum knows that he isn't kidding around so he's absolutely their best target for roleblock. I think that Chezinu is lying about his roleblock, consequently making him mafia. What do you guys think about that? I'd post more about him but he's kinda hard to read you know. so in order for your version of events to be true, Chezinu has to be lying, or there must be two roleblockers. Which one is it? Is Chezinu lying, or are there two roleblockers? | ||
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On December 23 2011 18:57 prplhz wrote: Okay why the hell would Chezinu claim roleblocked as scum? First of all it gives you some town credit if the guy who was roleblocked, and if nobody claims roleblocked today we'd know tomorrow that one of the dead was roleblocked (if scum has a roleblocker). Second of all, if Chezinu was roleblocked then GMarshal wouldn't have been roleblocked and he would have shot someone. This would severely mess up our flip analysis if we think that GMarshal actually shot one of VisceraEyes/Jackal58/SamuelLJackson. I don't think he shot any of those, I think he shot RebirthOfLeGenD, because he said he would in his 14:00 KST post. So yea, lets kill Chezinu? What do you feel about that bumatlarge? ##Vote Chezinu I'm still not over BloodyC0bbler by the way, and I'd like wherebugsgo to show me why we should kill Foolishness. I'll explain more in detail once I've slept, but essentially just look at Foolishness's filter. In general, Foolishness has been very apathetic toward town events and he sheeped the LSB vote despite saying earlier he did not like the case. What has he contributed? Why is he behaving like this in a game full of vets who all know how good he is as town? Why did he call Palmar town when there wasn't much for him to say that the post Palmar made "would never be made as scum?" This isn't the town Foolishness I know. Even when I asked him questions he clarified next to nothing. His thoughts are not clear and I don't like it. I'd like to give him an opportunity to redeem himself, since he is by far the best asset we have if he is town, but at this point I have no reason to believe he is town and very many to believe he is scum. As for BC, I really doubt he's scum. Your case on him is weak. This is why I was particularlyI confused Palmar supported it. He knows BC's play better than you do, so why would he support such a bad case? Obviously, we now know it was because he wasn't town. | ||
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I don't understand GGQ's rationale for automatically assuming Chezinu is lying about the roleblock. There's only one way to really find out, and that's to lynch him. However, at the moment Chezinu is not a very good lynch at all. I'll elaborate more when I'm back; posting from my phone ATM. | ||
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If you truly believed LSB was town day 1 why did you not speak up? Why did you put in near 0 effort to show to us that he was town? Why did you defend him on meta grounds but not offer examples of the games he's played? Foolishness, why are you so damn lazy? | ||
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On December 24 2011 08:04 Foolishness wrote: Stop debating nonsense. It's clear that nothing you or RoL have said today is going to lead anywhere except distraction land. Because I did not truly believe he was town. I thought that GM was a much better lynch given the events that had transpired (I talked about this in a post I made at the end of the day). And I wouldn't go so far to say I put in near zero effort, I certainly moved my vote to GMarshal and explained my reasoning. Though at this point it was already very late in the day and there was much more interesting things to observe (such as who was bandwagoning LSB and what not). And I defended him on meta grounds relatively early in the day, not anywhere near the claim (correct me if I'm wrong though). And I certainly didn't do anything concrete; I just filtered his posts in this game and one of his mafia games and didn't see anything glaringly similar. Then I checked one of his townie games and this game looked more similar to that. There wasn't any rigorous deduction there. And also, I'm willing to hold everyone else accountable for being lazy at this point. Let us both recap what has happened day 2. Wiggles makes a very very safe accusation against Sheth. Sheth has hardly done anything in response. L is writing text walls. RoL and a few others are debating what happened to GM which is clearly not leading anywhere. chaoser is clearly bored out of his mind. Day is like 20 hours over and there have been 2 votes, my vote for you and a very odd case against Chezinu. Clearly the mafia are shaking in their boots /sarcasm. Right, so here's the problems I have: #1. You say that you found that there were very interesting things to observe late in the day yesterday, specifically regarding who was willing to bandwagon LSB. Yet, your concern is not with the bandwagoners but with me, who started the case. Your words here don't line up with your actions. #2. You didn't 'truly' believe he was town. Why nitpick here? I am not asking for semantics. I am asking whether or not you believed LSB to be town yesterday. Everything you said and did suggested that you believed LSB was town, yet you did next to nothing to stop the lynch. You were apathetic as fuck when it came to LSB. These posts: On December 21 2011 09:45 Foolishness wrote: Not a good day 1 lynch (at this point at least) On December 21 2011 13:51 Foolishness wrote: I will support BC in everything at this point because he used the word asshattery. Filter LSB's posts. Filter LSB's posts from any game he's town. Notice the similarity? On December 22 2011 09:51 Foolishness wrote: ##Vote: LSB I will be back before day ends to change if necessary. I'm still against but as always I'd rather lynch than no lynch. + Show Spoiler + Estimated number of people who will quote this post and call me mafia cause of it: 4 Estimated people: Palmar, Jackal, Curu/sandroba, kitaman were the only posts you made about LSB yesterday prior to the claim, all suggesting you already knew what LSB would flip, but were not willing or concerned enough to stop us from going the extra length to kill him. #3. My whole point was that you didn't do anything concrete! This is lazy and bad play. You, lazy and bad? Yeah, that really sounds like what you'd do as town. Why would you just let a good townie like LSB get lynched if you thought he was unlikely to flip scum? What about that bullshit excuse that you'd rather have a lynch than a no lynch? I would rather no-lynch if it ensured a townie survived. You even thought that GM was more likely to be scum than LSB, but clearly you were wrong about him too. Instead, you voted off LSB very late in the day onto GM. Now it looks like you were simply trying to absolve yourself of responsibility for voting LSB and watching idly as he died. #4. With that in mind, this: On December 24 2011 08:04 Foolishness wrote: And also, I'm willing to hold everyone else accountable for being lazy at this point. Let us both recap what has happened day 2. Wiggles makes a very very safe accusation against Sheth. Sheth has hardly done anything in response. L is writing text walls. RoL and a few others are debating what happened to GM which is clearly not leading anywhere. chaoser is clearly bored out of his mind. Day is like 20 hours over and there have been 2 votes, my vote for you and a very odd case against Chezinu. Clearly the mafia are shaking in their boots /sarcasm. is incredibly damning. You're not willing to take on the responsibility of your actions yesterday, but are more than willing to blame everyone else for what happened. Yeah, that's a great way to play. Who cares about what you did, right? Cause obviously your play was so much better than all of ours. Maybe we should've listened to you and lynched GM instead! Oh but wait, the end result would've been the same. And you knew that. That's why you took your vote off LSB and put it on GM. However, I don't think you anticipated GM would die. You talked about the RB as if you knew GM would get RBed, as if you knew what would happen. You knew GM would live and you knew you could lock the lynch down today on GM. Miscalculation on your part, and now you've been outed as scum. ##vote Foolishness | ||
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Chezinu might have been roleblocked by a town roleblocker yesterday, if this is true. He could also be scum. As of now I don't believe Chezinu is scum. To the players who believe Chezinu is scum: (i.e. prplhz) please provide a detailed case as to why you believe he is scum and not town. I will do my own rereading of Chezinu's posts, to see if I have missed anything. I don't think I have, though, seeing as I've read the thread at least 3 times now (not hard, seeing as no one is doing anything) | ||
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On December 24 2011 08:37 Foolishness wrote: 1) Yes, I already explained why I was interested in your in my earlier accusation of you. You claim to have been watching me this entire game (although you haven't done anything until now) yet you've spent your time against LSB too. 2) - 3) I already stated that I would rather lynch than no lynch. You wouldn't? Cool. I don't care, that's your opinion and that's something we could spend days arguing about. That's not what this is about. If you don't want to nitpick about what I thought LSB was, then don't nitpick about my actions on whether or not I tried to save him. I moved my vote off of him and gave reasoning why GM was the better lynch. That's 100% more than the majority of people in this game (including yourself I might add). The last thing we need right now is a bandwagon vote onto the inactive Sheth. #1. Yes, I have been watching you the entire game. You weren't the best lynch day 1 because I thought LSB was far more likely to be scum. I know your play better than his, and your play day 1 was poor, but that was perhaps still explainable. However, after you didn't die n1 and you were wrong about GM too I realized that either you shape up today, or you're scum. So far today you have not been impressive; indeed, you are wrong again. #2 . I am not nitpicking about whether or not you tried to save him. Voting is only one step in trying to convince people. Merely voting and saying "oh I think the GM lynch is better" with barely any time left in the day, after all the Euros have gone to sleep, is not enough. You know that very well yourself; this game is as much about convincing others of your opinion as it is about being right. For the record, you failed on both accounts; you were wrong, and you didn't convince anybody. #3. I didn't try to convince people that LSB wasn't scum because I didn't believe he was town! So why are you accusing me of not taking action when I didn't agree with you in the first place? | ||
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 I guess we knew we'd have to deal with this because of the holidays, though. Oh well. I'm on my phone ATM; can everyone who is here explain who they would like to lynch and why? By my last vote count we had a half-dozen single votes on people. | ||
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I suppose people will excuse themselves for the inactivity yesterday and the day before because of Christmas and stuff. Well, we wasted a lot of time, but one good thing happened: BC wasn't lynched, and that's great since I don't actually believe he's scum. We need information, and we need discussion. We have next to nothing following the events of n1. No one commented on my case on Foolishness. No one did anything except bandwagon BC, really. Five/six of you can't all be scum. Surely there are probably multiple scum on the BC wagon, but we are actually not in a great position to find out who, since a bunch of the votes were literally identical. And by identical, I mean terrible. We are also not in a position to lynch all of them in the attempt to simply wipe out scum, in hopes that all of them were on the BC wagon. 10v4 going into n2 with one scum flipped and he probably wasn't even connected to the mafia team. Not a great position for us. I will post specific thoughts right before deadline in case I get shot. We should perhaps use this time for discussion, since we've lacked it so far, but I'm wary because it can easily affect night actions as well. Thus, since I'll be done with jury duty in time, I'll just seed all my thoughts on scum into the thread right before deadline. | ||
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Upon rereading I think RoL has been acting rather town-like. The GM business doesn't make sense unless GM was RBed. We don't know that for sure unless Chezinu is lying or trolling. This is the problem atm. So, we lynch one of Foolishness/Chezinu tomorrow IMO. I guess if there's a convincing argument for RoL being scum I'd be willing to lynch him too. Chezinu very well could be lying/trolling. He did nothing today, though he did more day 1. His activity dropped off like a scum's would. At first I didn't believe he was lying. Now I'm more willing to entertain that idea. also my bad, I'm playing LoL :p I got back from jury duty and I feel lazy. | ||
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But that was day 1. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I also think it interfered too much with normal play. This game was very abnormal and even though town played relatively badly, the vigis helped them come back to win. Night 1 the traitor gets shot (right as I saw he was the traitor cause he said something retarded) and we chose a stupid roleblock because we didn't think the lynch through enough and were scared GM would shoot kita. While it's easier for townies to influence lynches than vig shots, it's also easier for mafia to influence the lynch than the vig shots. You can't dodge both the lynch AND vig shots; that's asking the impossible. My play as scum, for example, involves manipulating the lynch over and over, on anyone but me. I use whatever tactics possible to do so. A lot of these tactics are just pulled out of the game when you have to worry about getting shot over them. In addition, I completely disagree over having qualified for spam vig, and for syllo qualifying for the acronym vig. There's an inherent bias in the host allowing a person to shoot someone else on certain grounds because the host already knows the alignment of the player in question. Thus, there's already a subconscious bias that will cause a tendency toward the host allowing the player to take a shot on a mafia player, whereas on a town player it's less likely. Sure, I might have had X percent of the posts by day 2 or whatever, but that's not to say I was spamming. Likewise, I don't understand how it even fits the theme for syllo to be shot based on him saying "scummy" several times. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
That snowballed into me getting shot and the game was over for me. I didn't really follow the game much after that, but for me that was really what it came down to. Honestly the inactivity screwed me because it made it look as if I had more posts than I should've. Also, by day 3 I actually did not have 10% of the posts; I had less. VE had more posts than I did, even. By the daypost I died in, I had 60 game-relevant posts, and the game had lasted 38 pages, or around 760 posts. (the first 10 pages of the thread were signups and stuff). That amounted to 8% of the total posts. That was actually rather close to average, if a little bit high, since five people had died by that point. EDIT: On January 08 2012 22:16 L wrote: I really don't see how this setup was town favored in the least. The mafia team derped out and skipped out on being on IRC during day 3 then bussed me by mistake when we had an easy 5v2 vote advantage. Syllo completely dropped the ball that day and made himself SUPER suspicious by posting 2 lines on an already stacked train, and kita blundered later. So basically we had 3 chances to win and we threw all of them, and that's not including the 3 times we saved the town by RBing a townie shot. In retrospect I should have pushed to have no one RB'd day 1, but oh well. The shot on Syllo had pretty much all of us going ??? on IRC when we heard the grounds for it, but honestly the game shouldn't have even gotten to that point. I was hoping my day 1 analysis would be a REALLLLLLY big tip-off to the traitor. Looks like it worked, but I didn't expect it to be Palmar. Nuts. TL;DR GJ town. Our team blundered horrendously. I disagree completely with this assessment. You were, if I remember correctly, the person who told us to RB GM. I remember arguing that we shouldn't RB GM because he would very likely shoot a townie. I even tried changing the night action, but it was too late because we didn't discuss anything until a couple minutes after the deadline. Discussion was difficult and often sporadic in IRC from what I recall, but to be honest our activity levels directly reflected those of town; i.e, they were bad. Overall I don't think this game saw very good play by either side. For the longest time I wanted to just claim apathy vig and shoot Foolishness during day 2, but I didn't want to piss you guys off if I got vigged afterward, since it would have seemed like a direct result of that action. In hindsight I should've just done it, but oh well. Learned something, I suppose. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 08 2012 22:56 prplhz wrote: Just want to say that I sent in my hit at a point where wherebugsgo had 9.84% of all posts in the thread. 10% is a lot in a 20 player game I think. no, not when 5 are dead and the thread was completely inactive. Also, I counted myself, I believe it was 8%. 60 posts of 760 is 7.8, not 9.84 (unless I've miscounted) On January 08 2012 23:50 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, this is where I think WBG erred. You thought your ##Hit on foolishness would of gotten you way more heat then I think it did. Generally if you killed someone the town was accepting you as a real vigilante and since you put heat on foolishness I don't think it would of been seen as bad as you think it would of been. I was ready to shoot him, but I received some disagreement from my team so I chose not to. Normally as scum I'm not afraid of doing bold things, simply because the unknown is unknown and I feel like I can manipulate things to the way I want them to be. That's what I did in the minis where I was lone scum, and that's how I would've played it here had I shot Foolishness as well. The setup gave me some pause, though, I have to admit. If I had to do it over I'd definitely just ignore the setup and do whatever the hell I wanted to do, because if the setup punishes my play, it would happen no matter how cautious I could try to be. Either I'd get lynched on meta grounds or I'd get shot because the setup allows townies to shoot disruptive people. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 09 2012 17:21 L wrote: Because our original plan was to have our RB stay up until the deadline, f5 the shit out of the page as the time came up, then stay on GM till he crumbed he was shooting a townie, then switch off onto someone else with a pre-written pm message to save time. Then we didn't. So I operated most of that day thinking that someone was lying through their ass about who hit who. I tried to change the RB but I was informed by Ver like a day later when I asked that the action had not been changed because it had been sent in too late. Honestly we should've never roleblocked GM to begin with, the chance of him shooting kita was so low it was not worth considering. That was our biggest mistake. Beyond that, I made the mistake of not day vigging Foolishness. I don't know what you guys did after that, but I'm sure there are things we could've done differently outside those two things as well. On January 09 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote: My own experience: I think playing the traitor in this setup is basically impossible. My plan was to argue about useless stuff and try to derail town, while making myself known to the mafia. Both L and Syllogism were very obvious scum on day 1, calling syllogism town repeatedly was actually my way of trying to communicate to the mafia team that I was the traitor. I later heard they still thought about shooting me night one, I guess for the strawman argument against L. But seriously, as traitor I HAVE to play scummy, because otherwise the mafia will kill me (they almost did), and yet I have to dodge the lynch, at least until day 2-3. I was going to claim cop this game (I was going to claim an innocent check on L), which would have given the mafia a perfect opportunity to get me into their team, as they knew there were no cops (I did not know this, just calling a scum town with a cop check should be good enough to tell them I'm traitor). However, with a ton of vigilantes in the game, one of them is bound to just shoot someone who is forced to play scummy, which is what happened. I seriously think the change to chaoser's role is really bad addition to the original Ace role. The thing about misrepresenting is just complete and utter bullshit, because it's punishing good scum play. I successfully created a shit side-track discussion and got punished for it. About the setup: Town has waaaayyyy too much KP. For those that don't get this, a vigilante shot is the best kill town has, assuming it's held by a competent player. In a normal 20 player game, that has maybe... one vigilante, town controls 2kp (lynch and shot), and mafia controls 2kp per cycle. In the end, the vigilante usually will have claimed (and gotten blocked) or died, and mafia probably ends up with more than half the kills in the game on their behalf In this game, Town killed like 10 players or something? That's simply way too high. I only managed to figure out two mafia on day one (I almost sent in a list with syllo, L, foolishness and prplhz), but it's still enough so a bunch of gung-ho vigilantes should've chosen their shots better. L was painfully obvious as scum. I mean, in a game that punishes bad play, it's weird town can get away with so many bad vigilante shots and still win the game. Vigilantes are stupidly powerful roles, and mafia can only counterclaim hits so long. I am a big fan of vigilantes because they put responsibility into the hands of town, but not to the point where they help town immensely. Don't get me wrong, I liked the game and I would certainly play again. however, I would just get rid of all the damn triggers, all they do is infuriate people, and most of them are very dependent on how people play. I would argue that normal setups punish bad play much more than this one, and certainly incognito's setup in XLVIII did much more to punish bad play than this setup. The only reason mafia came even close to winning was because town shots were really, really bad for the most part. Credit should go where it's due. Chaoser did a good job, prplhz, foolishness and meapak too. I don't like it when people forget there are two teams in mafia, one of those teams is mafia, and this game really fucked mafia over. With triggers that stopped mafia from playing well (sidetracking town, destroying discussion, spamming, and in general being dicks), and a bunch of vigilantes mafia would've had to start counterclaiming from day 2, it pushed mafia into a corner. I love the concept of creating a game specifically designed to counter bad play, I just don't think this was quite it. Some parts were cool (vigilantes, despite being op, are such a great role). Mafia fucked up, and if you read this and think "man Palmar thinks mafia didn't stand a chance", then you're misunderstanding me. I'm pointing out a slight flaw in an otherwise good game, mafia just had less chance to win than usual. funny story: syllo wanted to shoot you. Based on what you said about prpl's post on BC I deduced you had to be a third party, and so I called the shot on you off. ofc it's too bad chaoser shot you in the face. Otherwise, I was ready to guess you were the traitor the next day. Bolded is true. "Bad play" is very subjective and this game did not really punish it anyway. Some of the vigis (I'm lookin at you, Foolishness) were subject to their own triggers. On that note, maybe this is controversial, but I personally don't actually think Foolishness played all that well (no offense). Imagine a setup without vigis. Would people have listened to him? Would he have been able to successfully push a lynch on someone with the type of play he was putting up? I seriously doubt it. His reads were excellent, but he had very little influence over the votes. Vigis create a lot of interruption in the flow of the scum game because the shots are almost always unexpected. There is no way to predict when a shot will occur or who will be on the receiving end, and in a game with 17 some vigis it becomes really crazy. Something like 10 vigis missed and 3 hit their mark. Statistically that's barely above what you would get by just RNGing the shots. Not particularly stellar, IMO. The setup is designed to punish bad play but I don't think it succeeded in that regard. Bad play was still abound in (probably unexpected) ways and there was nothing to do about it. I agree with Palmar that XLVIII's setup was actually better in this regard, because of the way the roles were aligned so that bad play was punished. The same role on both sides thing made claiming delicate and allowed for a lot of different types of play. In this game, I don't think that was the case. I felt pigeonholed just by the fact that I knew there were a lot of vigis. As I've said before, controlling the lynch is possible, because you can influence the masses with whatever you want. That's the whole aim of the scumteam; you create distraction and implant ideas that are "bad" for townies. If you "punish" this type of play, you punish the scumteam for doing what they're supposed to be doing. | ||
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