EPTTL Mafia XLVIII - Page 7
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 00:58 sandroba wrote: Palmar bro you need to stop posting reason and yell at people in all caps. It's clearly the only way it works. How about song lyrics and dramatic speeches? It can't be all coincidence Too many things are evident You tell me you're an unbeliever? Spiritualist? Well me I'm neither Wouldn't you like to know the truth Of what's out there to have the proof And find out just which side you're on Where would you end in Heaven or in Hell? Citizens of Liquidia! Today is a day to remember, because today the true colors of the residents of town will be shown. Who will dare stand up against the Mafia and make the right choice? Remember that we must each reach the conclusion on our own while working against a highly organized team of evildoers. Remember today, once night falls it is upon each individual in this town to analyze what happened here today, and more than any other day, today is the day where the lines are drawn. Today you choose a side, today you show yourself as a valuable member of town or worthless scum seeking only to spread distrust while slowly taking our lives, one by one. Every single person will be held accountable to their actions today. Every single person will be remembered for what they did here today, for good or for bad. Remember today! Palmar or annul | ||
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Palmar
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On December 08 2011 01:07 hyshes wrote: I'm going to vote for palmar. I don't like the bandwagon on annul by those players. The fact that palmar is so pushing heavy makes him the right lynch to me. In 157 letters you managed to make two logical errors. a) You cannot deduce anything about a person's alignment by other people's reactions to their posts. b) Trying to spearhead lynches is generally not a scumtell. This pains me because I think you're town, your posts during the night feel simply out of place if you're scum, unless of course the decision to kill syllo was made after his row with annul. But please, re-think your stance. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
So it's you! I'm surprised, your day 1 play was actually quite solid. | ||
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Palmar
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On December 08 2011 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Palmar, you starded the black-and-white stuff. IF annul is lynched and flips green, can we jump on your ass and chop you out of the game no problem? Would you take that risk to lynch annul, are you that sure that he is scum? yes. barring a medic claim from a person I'm willing to believe, I am that certain. If annul flips green I'll take all the blame, if part of that is to be lynched I'll accept that. | ||
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Palmar
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Palmar
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On December 08 2011 09:46 prplhz wrote: @Radfield PYP:Interesting, you were only wrong about one guy during that entire game. I only played with you in that game and in LotR where you were scum. I guess my claim is mostly based on your reputation which might be better than you are, but I was pretty impressed with you in PYP:Interesting and you were obviously town to everybody after day0, in this game you're wobbly even during day2. I supposed there was a reason why chaoser shot you night2 in LotR. How the hell can you say that VisceraEyes is "Maybe town", the guy has been tunneling the same person all game long and that person is on your town list rofl. As funny as it is, Nothing VisceraEyes has done says much about his alignment. I'm off to bed, spent all night playing dota 2. I'll give you my thoughts tomorrow. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
It's time. You don't always catch scum in the same way. There is, for example, no traditional way of catching Kenpachi or Coagulation as scum, because they will not, regardless of their alignment, provide us with content that can be broken down and analyzed through post by post analysis. That is not to say you can't catch people who play unconventionally as scum. While annul doesn't write long, well explained posts, no matter his alignment, it's the content and direction, as well as the intention of these posts that give a player away. I think annul is a good player, he doesn't give himself away every single post. But it's rather the overall playstyle that reeks of scum. Let's look at why annul is scum: For convenience, here is his entire filter: Clicky There is not much to be had on annul's alignment from his initial posting. He is mostly correct in his thoughts, simply because arguing such mundane things as "should we use lists or not" is not something that can give away people's alignments. No matter their opinion on such things. The first post that stuck out to me was this: On December 05 2011 06:04 annul wrote: im still waiting for purple haze to address his blue claim. if i saw it, mafia surely saw it too. and i saw it immediately. ;\ This is regarding prplhz's sentence: "Just want to sit around and wait for power roles to do our job" Here's the deal, this is in no way a blue claim, and as soon as prplhz denies it being one, the issue should be ignored, yet even quite a bit later annul is still wondering about a trivial issue. The sentence can easily be read from the point of view of prplhz being town and "our job" referring to finding mafia, not blues using their abilities. Why does annul want to stick with this? Because it gives him an excuse to contribute nothing, which has been a hallmark of his play this game. On December 05 2011 06:10 annul wrote: people NEED to be aware that he blueslipped there. it changes everything. What the shit is a blueslip, there is no such thing. He denied it referring to him being blue, and that should be taken at facevalue. It changes exactly nothing, annul is just staying on his road of "If I tunnel this, I don't have to contribute". Just so I point it out, annul's vote on Drazerk, followed by his switch to Soap gives us no indication of his alignment. Let's talk some more about how to avoid contributing and draw bad conclusions: On December 06 2011 03:02 annul wrote: im still waiting to see if soap actually flips from v7's shot or if this is a grand troll by everybody if soap actually flips anything nonred i'm instavoting palmar and not unvoting What has Soap's alignment to do with me? I called him my homeboy, so if I'm right I must be scum? Where's the logic here. I did not ask for Soap to be shot, the whole issue has nothing to do with me. I retracted my claim before the shot was fired, and confirmed it. The decision was a rash, bad decision from v7, against a person that I had no intention of getting shot. As syllogism so brilliantly put it: On December 06 2011 03:05 syllogism wrote: So you are saying palmar is scum, vader is town and palmar used his psychic powers to determine that vader is a town day vig and would shoot Soap instead of, say, himself? Of course, this doesn't stop annul with following through with his completely illogical train of thought, because that's a favorite thing of mafia, to not use logic and just run with stuff. On December 06 2011 06:10 annul wrote: wow. you have to be kidding me. ##vote palmar Now, please recheck annul's filter ( here ) and scroll down to where he votes me. Notice how sharply his contribution rate has fallen. Not only that, but there is also NO effort at scumhunting at all. He literally hasn't accused anyone of anything since he decided I was red. There is no substance. I think the closest thing was calling Jackal a moron. He hasn't even pushed a case against me today. The bottom line, is that in addition to the complete lack of scumhunting, the complete lack of contributions, annul claimed to have been saved by a medic, from a shot I am all but certain was fired by syllogism, makes me have a very strong feeling this guy is scum. On December 08 2011 01:36 annul wrote: why the fuck is palmar of all people leading a wagon on ME of all people? did you all forget the shit he pulled yesterday? letting palmar run shit = outed jack and a dead green Notice, there is not logical reason for not listening to me, it's just the fact that because I'm aggressive and v7 panicked, I must by extension not be trusted. Annul is clinging onto the notion that disregarding me by referring to the misfired shot yesterday, he can discredit me enough so that I won't be listened to. I'm still waiting on anything that can count as contribution from annul today. I think it's also very bad for town to try and push the issue aside. If we allow the mafia do deflect the annul lynch onto a random townie (Radfield, I'm looking at you), we both eliminate the chance that we hit mafia today, and we cause town to be in exactly the same situation tomorrow. It's probably a better idea to lynch me, because at least that will validate everything I'm saying, not like mafia is gonna let me live after the night if annul dies. With 15 townies alive and 6 mafia, we need 11 townies to make the correct decision. The correct decision is to lynch annul today. I was useless on day 1, please accept this scum as a token of my regret. Annul is mafia ##Vote annul | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 05:11 Radfield wrote: EBWOP: If annul was NOT shot last night(ie, did not claim a hit), would you still be wanting him lynched? I think my latest post answers your question. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 22:24 prplhz wrote: @Palmar Why didn't annul claim veteran? How do you feel about vaderseven? You know the guy has played forum mafia for years right, he isn't supposed to panic in a situation where he has confirmed that he's not in any immediate danger. Annul might be forced to claim a role later in the game. There might be trackers, watchers, role cops and probably some other roles that can disprove him being a veteran. I would literally role-cop him immediately on night 3 if I was a rolecop. v7's play is very weird, if he's indeed a veteran it makes him look pretty bad. However, I think his anger towards me for pushing him looks pretty genuine, although it's obviously not very well thought out. In addition, I liked the fact he tried to communicate his Jack claim prior to straight up claiming, that looks like something townies would probably do more often than mafia. I have interest in getting him lynched today, and probably not ever. | ||
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Palmar
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On December 08 2011 22:42 Toadesstern wrote: I still like my Erandorr case way more for the same reasons I already said yesterday. Those people on Annul right now are just not the most confirmed townies around to put it that way. That wagon formed so fast although it came to a halt that I just got a bad feeling of mafia influence here. I mean I got a case on erandorr and he's on Annul. That's not a good sign for me. Drazerk who's still a liar to me until he gets a confirmed save is not exactly the kind of guy I'd like on a bus as well. Just look at erandorr for a second palmar. That guy did everything I expected, did a bigger post to protect himself and started one-liners right afterwards. I called him out for this behaviour, he made a bigger post in which he admits that his filter looks pretty damning but finishes along the lines "well but I'm a townie and I am really sorry I'm screwing town right now! I am willing to help you guys no matter what just shoot me a question". So people came along hugging him like a little baby that's told that it's not his fault and that everything's going to be okay. Guess what? I asked him a simple question straight away after his post. He still hasn't answered, still somehow people think he's looking more town now with his most recent post because I guess people feel sorry for him. This is a cheap trick. The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it. You should simply look at the strength of the case and determine for yourself if it's valid enough to earn him your vote. If you always consider who else shares your opinion you'll never get anywhere because nothing stops mafia from bussing teammates. I have looked at Errandor. There is nothing about his play that conclusively puts him down as scum. Sure, there are questionable things in there, but that's not a reason to lynch him today. I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his alignment by lynching annul. Lynching Errandor will not solve anything that's going on in town now. It's basically an excuse for lynching a scummy lurker. That was for day 1, today we're going after mafia. And I just gave you mafia. | ||
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Palmar
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On December 08 2011 22:43 prplhz wrote: So scum do not get angry at people pushing them and threatening to shoot them or what? And townies do? And townies shoot people in the face for no reason? Since he probably is a Jack, does that in any way make it more likely that he is town? Why wouldn't a scum Jack try to breadcrumb his role? His reason for breadcrumbing it was that you were a dayvig, and he thought he could convince you that he was one too by breadcrumbing, but he isn't a dayvig. He's a Jack. How does that make any sense? At that point he was in a pretty stressful situation so I don't read much into that, I just don't think there's anything about his behavior during that entire thing that indicates that he's town and I think it's weird that you feel so strongly about him being town. If there's any medic out there who protected annul and it looks like he's about to get lynched and you think he's a more valuable player than you are, then you should claim. I don't think any player who would have protected annul last night could be any more valuable than him, so I think that it is weird that annul doesn't want the medic to claim at any point. annul thinks highly of himself so it is weird that he doesn't think he's more important that some medic, he's been pretty vocal about how the medic must not claim. It's not the fact that he got angry, it's how he got angry. And no, I think a scumjack wouldn't have attempted to communicate with me like that, but instead called me out. I might be wrong, I'm not always right (just most of the time), but I feel that it's irrelevant as of now. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
Him calling out Radfield for his stance on annul doesn't seem scummy at all to me, and he already took his own stance (voting annul). Yes he hasn't been a beacon of obvious town, but I don't think your case which basically consists of meta to his last game, ignoring for example mini mafia x, where he played an equally useless town, is stronger than the current case on annul. How certain are you that Errandor is scum? I think we have a weak case against Errandor, a non-existant bullshit case against prplhz, and a very, very strong case against annul. I think we should be lynching annul. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 22:59 Toadesstern wrote: EBWOP: You're even contradicting yourself wtf. So you're saying when it's not okay to not lynch annul because of what other people think about him but it's okay to do so with erandorr after a lynch? Woah, are you intentionally being thick? There is no way to tell anything about the alignment of a person being bandwagoned or followed by looking at the people following them. This is because you cannot scumhunt against player a based on the actions of player b. Thus you cannot deduce annul's alignment by looking at who's voting for him. However, you can deduce a player's alignment by looking at whom he's voting for. Because in that scenario you're evaluating player a's alignment based on the actions of player a. To make it simple: Annul is not responsible for the people voting him, and I'm not responsible for the people sheeping my case (which everyone should be doing). Thus: The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it. Errandor is however responsible for his own vote, and his own decision for following me, thus: I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his [Errandor's] alignment by lynching annul. If you fail to see the difference of people being responsible for their own actions, and people being responsible for other's actions, I'm not sure I can help you. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 23:19 Mattchew wrote: Woah, are you intentionally being thick? He's saying that you cant say "don't look at who votes annul" followed by "watch how erandorr votes" Why not? If toad thinks Erandorr is mafia, and Erandorr votes for annul, that should have no impact on whether or not the case against annul is valid, because Erandorr isn't annul, they're seperate people. Toad could be wrong about Erandorr, I could be wrong about annul, and Erandorr could be bussing annul. You cannot read anything about whether or not the annul wagon is valid based on who is on it. However, while the fact Erandorr votes for annul says nothing about annul, it does say a lot about Erandorr, because... Erandorr is Erandorr. I don't get what's complicated about this. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 23:29 hyshes wrote: @palmar Common.. what kind of logic is this? If i have suspicon about all the people voting for annul.. no way i'm going to vote with them. At that moment it doesn't matter what kind of case there is. I'm just not voting on anyone together with players i don't trust. Anyways, i'm not voting anyone you push forward. I'm going to follow toad's case on errandor here. If you have a justified reason to believe the people voting annul are scum, then it's very likely the case on it's own should be too weak to follow anyway. So yes, this is logic. It's simply incorrect to dismiss a case based on the presumption that some players presenting or supporting the case might be scum, if the case is valid enough it should be followed. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 23:38 Toadesstern wrote: First of all, you just said it. Even if you're right and annul is mafia there's no new read on erandorr. The guy voted for annul after something like 4 votes were on him after an incredible fast time? If you're right this could be a bus and this gives me 0 information about erandorr. How am I supposed to to gauge erandorrs alignment based on the flip? This is incredible wifom to the max. Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is red. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is green. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a mafia bussing annul if annul is red. Erandorr could be a mafia getting a green-lynch if annul is green. That's when you apply the "it's not what people do, but how they do it, that should be looked at" rule. If you're town, please come back and re-read this entire thing because you're being so wrong and bad at the moment that if you somehow justify your arguments to yourself, you will never improve. | ||
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Palmar
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On December 08 2011 23:34 annul wrote: "Here's the deal, this is in no way a blue claim," maybe you just dont speak english or understand ambiguity in pronouns, i dunno. pretty sure we established what exactly i saw and pretty sure the other alternative interpretation was brought forward. pretty sure we dropped it a while ago. so there goes the first half of your "case" lol "What the shit is a blueslip, there is no such thing." i explained it, if you actually read my filter i said a while ago that it was analogous to a scumslip. "What has Soap's alignment to do with me? I called him my homeboy, so if I'm right I must be scum?" it has to do with you forcing a jack to blow his wad for absolutely no reason. really dumb move. "He hasn't even pushed a case against me today." you are right about this. it would be so easy, too. at one point it was 5-4 me:you (5-5 if i voted). and i didnt act like a complete anti-town tard on day 1. i could have you lynched so easily. the time when i actually decide to go all out logic and debate on someone they never recover. "annul claimed to have been saved by a medic, from a shot I am all but certain was fired by syllogism, " this has what exactly to do with my alignment? like the bottom line is palmar has a maaaaaaaaaaaassively strong meta to blindly OMGUS anyone who pressures him for any reason. of course now is no different. No, there is no thing as a blueslip, you're pulling prplhz's very simple sentence out of context. Remember, English isn't his first language, and isn't mine either, so he should be given the benefit of the doubt. What's interesting about the Soap thing is... how would you have reacted if Soap flipped scum? Wouldn't that make me even more likely to be scum, given how I'd been defending him? The reason it has nothing to do with my alignment is that a) you knew he'd flip green, and b) you'd have considered me scum either way. If he flipped red, you'd have called me scum for defending me, if he flipped green you'd have called me scum anyway, as you clearly stated yourself. And no, you can't get me lynched, you don't have any logic that can help you survive this because I have right on my side. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On December 08 2011 23:43 hyshes wrote: You got a point there. But in this case it's void. The case against annul is from you and you are the untrustworthy one, together with the rest of these voters on annul. Of course I have a point. I'm not untrustworthy until you can prove I'm untrustworthy. So make a case against me and try to get me lynched, or support me otherwise. You have to explain why my case is wrong if you're not gonna support it. You can't just say "Palmar's kinda scummy so I'm not supporting it, and gonna go with that random lurker instead". I said it in that speech.... People will be remembered for what they do here today. How do you want your legacy to be? | ||
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