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GMarshal
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 02 2011 00:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Assuming all your set ups have an equal probability, this doesn't seem too balanced. Mafia most likely need a roleblocker, and while role check is decent for figuring out who the next hit will be on, it still doesn't negate public claims. For example, if I am a sane cop, I know there is a 66% chance I can claim and be jailed or protected the following cycle, and there is literally nothing the mafia can do to stop it. I think to remedy this the mafia rolecop should be a roleblocker. Problem solved :-P | ||
GMarshal
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On November 02 2011 00:34 Palmar wrote: This creates some weird shit with roleblocker vs roleblocker mechanics, read the mafiascum wiki article. I have, I don't see the issue they have with it though, scum roleblocker goes before jailor since the jailor is also a protection. Not really an issue, I mean I like the idea of a scum rolecop, but in a setup in which there is a potential for a medic/jailor or worse, both, the scumteam needs a way to suppress them. It also really gives an incentive to avoid claiming Anyway, I've read 2 of 4 games and they never seemed to run into *too* much trouble, although I feel like they are too blue heavy EDIT: To be clear, order would be Scum Roleblock Protections (medic and jailor) IF the jailor gets his protect off the target is also roleblocked DT checks Scum Kills | ||
GMarshal
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On November 02 2011 00:46 Palmar wrote: I'm sticking with the setup, but I love the discussion. F11 is another similar setup, now TL is definitely not Mafiascum, I think the level of town play here is slightly higher and we know each other very well. But on the other hand, I think TL plays really bad Scum. I have no idea why, since I myself am really bad at scum, but it just seems to me that the general way of playing scum on TL is to sit back and pray town fucks up. F11 had a win-rate of 40%-ish for town on mafiascum, so they went with 2of4 instead. I like the idea of the setup because it forces mafia to play a very analytical game (you can't just randomly roleblock until someone claims, you should be pro-active in looking for you target), and it might end up in mafia being forced to claim or counter-claim, which I find a fascinating area of the game we don't explore nearly often enough. In any case, would you take the gamble as a sane cop? Now if you did a good job and found mafia night 1, I'd consider taking the risk day 2. But what if mafia has enough balls to just shoot you? It's a huge can of wifom. What! You dare stick with a setup I don't entirely agree with! This means WAR! Seriously though 2 of 4 seems to work, although you need to consider that mafiascum has pretty bad towns, for example the mountanous setup, witch is 10 town 2 scum has a 30% town win rate. I think that with two blues the scumteam is going to be fighting an uphill battle, but I'm in favor of any setup that keeps active players alive. I still dislike cops, so I would love to throw in a miller instead of one of the VTs, simply to give scum a chance to squirm out of a check. Ether that or maybe consider making one of the scum a framer in setups that have DTs. Just random thoughts because I'm bored. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 02 2011 01:07 Palmar wrote: Those were exactly my thoughts, I did wonder when I first read the setup "isn't that really good for town?". And yes, Mafiascum towns are pretty bad. (In fact, TL towns are the only towns I've every seen that are relatively good). And then there is the issue with those random-open setups, which is the difference in balance depending on mod-roll, F11 was even worse in that respect (VT game vs a cop/doc game are vastly different). We might have to add a miller to the TL version of 2of4. I also had a crazy idea of simply not telling the mafia who their teammate is and giving the goon a gun. If the goon dies, the role cop gets a gun. For some reason TL seems to do okay as 3rd party and not scum. But I feel it's too themed (and similar to sleeper cell, which I hope will be hosted again in the future). We also have the possibility of replacing the Cop out of the cop/doc combination with a parity cop, because really, a cop+jailkeeper is not OP, it's only cop+doc that breaks the game. with a parity cop it reduces their investigative power by at least one night. Only problem with this is that the parity cop immediately knows the setup. Or we could just replace all town cops in the 2of4 with parity cops. I dislike the idea of making the scumteam not know each other, too theme as you said, and it removes the communication/coordination advantage, which is what scumteams now days seem to be failing to exploit. I really like the idea of replacing the cops with parity cops, which weakens the cop somewhat, I also suggest you make him unable to check himself, just to make the role more interesting. I'd still like to see a framer or miller but that's a personal preference, parity cop would work nicely too, and I'm not sure if both parity cop and miller together make the cop too weak of a role. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 02 2011 01:54 Palmar wrote: I assign the teams. Edit, also you already signed up and I already added you to the list lol. Are you going to do the assignments by RNG or by picking and choosing? (idle curiosity, you don't have to answer if you don't want to, I just want to know who to blame when I'm assigned my team, whether you or the dice :-P) | ||
GMarshal
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On November 02 2011 07:33 Curu wrote: I wish you could choose your partner . then the "good" players would be mobbed and all the players with less reputation would feel bad. This method is best. Fun fact, my first mafia game was a team melee hosted by RoL I ended up partnered with theMango and rolling scum. We won day 3 against a claimed cop ^_^ | ||
GMarshal
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On November 02 2011 08:34 Forumite wrote: I don´t see it as a problem, I see it as potential for FUN! =) THE FUN HAS BEEN DOUBLED! | ||
GMarshal
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pronounced "john" (I joke, I joke, we still need to come up with a name) | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 00:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Me and Kurumi, Team Nipple. I can see you two are miking the whole naming your team thing for giggles | ||
GMarshal
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I was tempted to be "team whatever" :-P | ||
GMarshal
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It would be udderly wasted if you didn't :-P | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote: what does GbR mean? I know it's one of those fancy German acronyms lol Geselschaft Burgerlichen Rechts (I probably butchered that) which IIRC is like a limited liability corporation Not 100% sure though. EDIT: according to google it stands for "Gesellschaft bürgerlichen Rechts" (so I was close) and its a "Civil-Law Partnership". As to what a civil-law partnership is, I have no idea. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 02:00 wherebugsgo wrote: GM do you speak German too?!? Cause I'm learning it in school :p Mein Deutsch ist nicht sehr gut, aber ich verstehe viel und kann genug Deutsch sprehen zu mich verstandlich machen. So yeah, I speak enough German to get along ^_^ Still IIRC one of the commandments requires us to speak in english, so lets avoid going on tangents! :-P | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 02:12 wherebugsgo wrote: Die Regeln sind nicht so wichtig hier jajaja Also the German noobs can choose Google Translate for their understanding needs I for one refuse to partake of playing mafia in german. I have a hard enough time figuring out people's alignment in *english*, throw in another language and it becomes impossible! :-P | ||
GMarshal
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Totally referring to you guys as team sparkly from now on. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 02:21 chaoser wrote: does no one know edward scissorhands lol Yes, but its funnier to make it a twilight reference. Also this game is really good for my postcount apparently | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 02:51 Palmar wrote: Also, I know it's a joke but lol, we non-native English speakers have to deal with that all the time That's was part of the joke, I was talking to a bunch of people from Europe :-P Also, its * clearly* your fault for choosing to be a non-native English speaker. Off topic ##Occupy: Team Liquid | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 03:16 prplhz wrote: who's smurf is katzeleute and i thought smurfs weren't allowed I don't think he is a sumrf he's just saying he enjoyed reading through LotR, not that he played in it I think. Really doubt he is a smurf. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 03:22 wherebugsgo wrote: lol if Crofty and Katzeleute are definitely smurfs. Probably both GM's smurfs, actually. Stop sabotaging my conspiracy. I decided to remedy the lack of players on TL by becoming new players, ok? | ||
GMarshal
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Cool, a game of mafia It's traditional at this point to post a picture of the reaper So, Iets do this thing. First thing first As usual there is no excuse for lurking, don't do it and you won't have me lobbing for your lynch. Seriously, 2 players per team should mean a more than decent level of activity, you aren't going to get away with 2~3 posts per cycle unless they are an outstanding, wall of text, analytical set of three posts. So post, transparency and information means we have a greater chance of success. Second thing (this should *not* be a point of discussion, as what I am about to talk about is too general for us to really talk about, I just wanted to make sure it was said). Because there are no vigilantes, if we have a jailkeeper he should be using his protect/roleblock offensively, that is "protecting" scum in an attempt to roleblock the kill, rather than going after the most outspoken townies and possibly roleblocking a power role. This style should encourage activity (scum no longer want to risk being lurkers if it might make their kill fail) and with the possibility of a medic in play scum still cannot afford to shoot the top players. Other than that there isn't that much to say on the setup until we get later in the day and can talk about dt lists and such. My lurker policy remains the same as always, and yeah, that's about it. | ||
GMarshal
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For fucks sake, if you get someone to L-2 stop voting for him until the last 12 hours of the day, and give warning before hammering. Remember, more time is always good for town, and giving the lynchee time to dump information can only be good. Leaving the player at L-2 ensures we avoid any "accidental" lynches. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 08:27 wherebugsgo wrote: Lynch minus two is three votes. Are you advocating that we just split the vote once someone reaches 3 votes?? I don't trust that this will be a great idea, particularly as people are often not available when you need them, and vote-splitting is great for scum. While we'd only need two more to lynch, that's not very comforting either. In such a situation we'd basically need to last-minute voteswitch if we think that we have a townie at 3 votes. Otherwise, we take the risk of no-lynch. Of course it opens us up to scum manipulation too. Scum can throw in a late vote "to stop a no-lynch" and then bam we lose a townie. I meant two votes to lynch, so if a player needs 7 to lynch, stop at 5. This policy would only be in effect for the first 36 or so hours of each day, but from personal experience, nothing sucks more than lighting bandwagons ending the day 3 hours in because everyone agrees someone is "scummy" and then seeing them flip green. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 08:39 prplhz wrote: gm thinks this is a 12 player game hahahahahahaha Oh, frag, I forgot its a 9 team game. Oops. In my mind the smallest game that exists has 11 players :-P In that case I suppose I can live with leaving a player at L-1, but if anyone quickhammers I will rip them a new one. | ||
GMarshal
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Oh and prplhz is scum, he is deliberately derailing the town. ##Vote: TEAM VIKING | ||
GMarshal
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Filter him. His grammar and spelling is annoying and he's pushing nonesense that doesn't further finding scum. | ||
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On November 03 2011 10:39 Forumite wrote: If you don´t think what prplhz does is helping us find scum, then I guess you think hyshes is Town, right? Why didn´t you defend him instead? I have no idea of hyshes alignment, his NotChezinu plan is derp, but hey, its a plan. You on the other hand seem to be immensely annoyed at being called scum. Why this reaction to being called out? It looks like someone might have something to hide... Answering WBG's question about spelling and grammar, since when does a townie have a motive to make reading his posts harder and making him less likely to properly convey a point, making people more likely to disregard his posts? | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 10:58 wherebugsgo wrote: For all we know they could both be scum, let's not forget possibilities here. You seem to be all over the place atm, GMarsh. I think that's a pretty convoluted reason to think someone is mafia, especially in light of a much simpler and robust reason for hyshes being mafia. I would take your reads and reverse them; I think hyshes is probably scum (with chaoser) and I can't read prpl atm. And why do you think hyshes is scum? His plan? I'm not disagreeing, mind you, I just can't think of a reason why scum would post such an insane plan in the thread, rather than in the scum QT, unless he really *didn't* read his role PM, which would be patently ridiculous. We've seen many townies produce super anti-town plans in the past, which is why I'm hesitant to judge him just on that. I'm actually decent at reading chaoser, which is why I'm reserving judgement, I should be able to figure chaoser out a lot faster than hyshes, whom I have no experience with. So yeah, I'm jotting him down as a null read till I see more. But by all means, pile on the votes, I'm intrigued to see how that whole team reacts. | ||
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On November 03 2011 09:56 supersoft wrote: okay nothing interesting came up, yet. one thing i want to point out. if you're town, save all your conversations with your teampartner. if you're getting lynched, these conversations may provide something that speaks in favor of you. I know scum will do that, too now... BUT it's a lot of work to fake logs. and why should we be gentle with these guys?! Also, I like this idea, making scum do extra work is always a good thing ^_^ | ||
GMarshal
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On November 03 2011 07:28 prplhz wrote: way to quote a huge post with a oneliner how do u feel about the setup? theres been lots of talk already and stuff what do u think? do you like being paired with sandro? Woo! Lets talk about the setup and our partners, which helps us find scum... how again? On November 03 2011 08:18 prplhz wrote: i think redff only says good things Yay! Relevance! Not On November 03 2011 08:39 prplhz wrote: i would like to know how you like playing with gm so far is he being nice to u? what kind of stuff is he telling you in your qt? Once again, why are we discussing the interactions inside the team? How does this help us locate scum or do anything of relevance? How does this lead to meaningful discussion? On November 03 2011 09:43 prplhz wrote: Any combination of bad players? Also, here's the punctuation that I've been forgetting in my first couple of posts, insert at your own discretion: .-. .- .-. .. - -.-- | .. ... | -... . ... - | .--. --- -. -.-- Once again, lets have a conversation about... teams? How is that helpful? Why is he obliging this tangent? This is the derailment I'm talking about, he has all these posts about worthless things, that want to go off topic for no apparent reason. I will admit, I like his last few posts a lot better though. On November 03 2011 18:02 supersoft wrote: okay next point is GM accusing team Viking. Prplhz is from denmark and hes no anglistic expert. i dont mind some minor mistakes and i do them, too. i know you say he's doing that interpunctuation mistakes on purpose, and you say that a townie has no reason to be hard to understand. i think however, that scum has no reason to be hard to understand, too. therefor... I think you are being deliberatly daft here supersoft. Use your brain, why is Chezinu a great asset to a scum team? Because half the people don't even read his posts because they are nonsense. Smart scum could achieve a similar effect through atrocious use of spelling and grammar. As a rule townies want to be transparent, while scum want to muddle the waters. | ||
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On November 03 2011 21:51 kitaman27 wrote: Seems relavent to me. I'm pretty sure he is trying to tell if the response was coached or not. So are saying you think he is trying to promote a scum agenda by causing chaos or is he just spamming? 1.) *if* a player is being coached he isn't going to say "oh, he told me to say ____" in fact the response is probably going to be "oh, you know, we talked about stuff" independent of any coaching that may be going on. Its worthless discussion because its not going to lead to anything, and any statements made about what happens between the two players are entirely unprovable, Its completely irrelevant and isn't going to add anything to the discussion, or help finding scum 2.) I'm not sure, I'm waiting on more evidence to draw a conclusion, there isn't much difference between the two, spamming usually seeds chaos, as to whether it is done with a scum agenda, I'm not sure, I think it may be scum motivated, but we'll see. | ||
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On November 03 2011 22:58 supersoft wrote: okay chezinu is someone who talks a lot, but has no pull because noone really understands what hes up to?! Which means no one ever kills him. What was the last game you remember where he was lynched, despite spouting nonesense? Same theory behind muddling your speech pasterns, it makes people less likely to pay attention to you, that way you trade pull for survivability . If you can't understand why that is beneficial to mafia then I can't help you. As I said, town strives for clarity and transparency. Scum do the opposite. | ||
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On November 04 2011 02:31 Kurumi wrote: Kurufesto It's good to be back, guys. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2011 07:45 GMarshal wrote: Cool, a game of mafia It's traditional at this point to post a picture of the reaper So, Iets do this thing. First thing first As usual there is no excuse for lurking, don't do it and you won't have me lobbing for your lynch. Seriously, 2 players per team should mean a more than decent level of activity, you aren't going to get away with 2~3 posts per cycle unless they are an outstanding, wall of text, analytical set of three posts. So post, transparency and information means we have a greater chance of success. Second thing (this should *not* be a point of discussion, as what I am about to talk about is too general for us to really talk about, I just wanted to make sure it was said). Because there are no vigilantes, if we have a jailkeeper he should be using his protect/roleblock offensively, that is "protecting" scum in an attempt to roleblock the kill, rather than going after the most outspoken townies and possibly roleblocking a power role. This style should encourage activity (scum no longer want to risk being lurkers if it might make their kill fail) and with the possibility of a medic in play scum still cannot afford to shoot the top players. Other than that there isn't that much to say on the setup until we get later in the day and can talk about dt lists and such. My lurker policy remains the same as always, and yeah, that's about it. I am against lynching lurkers. First, the setup is really small, so we should delay the game and make it as long as we could. Scum, unless terrible or really overloaded with RL stuff (they shouldn't join game then, but hey it happens) won't lurk. Remember, scum are those MIDDLE guys, not so active or inactive to draw attention. "But it sounds so cool Kurumi... go get them Yourself, let me derp my way to LYLO" Yeah I know Towns on TL are quite damn lazy and with all the info coming out at the beginning of the game, quoting guides by either side and stuff like that and forget all of it after D1 lynch but.. I am not going to forget, I wish to play my best this game. "But Kurumi, Mafia has a Role Cop!" With 1 blue, they will have hard time finding Team with it. With 2 blues, we will get enough protection/information to retaliate strong enough. Remember, the more time Parity Cop gets, the stronger we are, because he can slowly confirm people. I think we shouldn't worry about Mafia Role Cop too much. Lurker lynch is a bad idea. We either no-lynch or lynch the scummiest fuckers out there. With a mislynch, Mafia ALREADY got their KP per cycle! If we don't get a good protect/block or we just don't have roles for it, 2 people are dead by Day 2. Meanwhile, Mafia Role Cop has checked one of the roles. That means, 3 out of 7 people roles are known to Mafia, another lynch and it's 4 out of 5, if the (only one) blue survived to this time, he will be killed during the night, no matter the lynch result. Summary: Lurker lynch is a terrible idea, Mafia rarely lurk without any special plan. No lynch does not put us behind: Our blue will survive longer this way. Lynch = scummiest person, remember! Try to keep Your post readable... I am trying, so You should too. No lynching day 1 is so anti-town I don't have words for it. Truly this is a Kurumi plan. Lets break this down, what is the probability of us hitting mafia if we no lynch? Oh, right! 0%, so Kurumi, you are advocating giving the mafia a free night. With no information gained about anyone's alignment/ties as usually happens when we have a contested lynch. Also why are you assuming we have a parity cop? Its perfectly possible that we don't, like say maybe we have a medic and that's it. No-lynching is only an alternative when a clear townie is going to be lynched by a stupid bandwagon, otherwise we should be making every effort to make sure we lynch. Remember one no-lynch just turns lylo into mylo, which means that if we give up one lynch we have to give up a second one to prolong the game. And scum lurk all the time, just look at nisani and dropbear in XLVI, which you hosted. Lurker lynch is great if there is no better alternative. I agree that its better to lynch scummy people than lurkers, but your suggestion of no-lynching to "prolong the game" is retarded. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 04 2011 02:49 Kurumi wrote: Lurker lynching is often an excuse not to lynch someone, just add "I dunno, he doesn't seem so scummy to me" and voila, You've got Your lurker lynch. Giving You no information about people who voted on the lurker (and we probably won't have this problem) and giving You a green flip. Day 1 lurker lynch is.. worse than a no-lynch, because we will hit town on 99% of basis. No we won't. Also, as long as we make people justify their votes we still get more information than a no lynch. I already agreed with you, thought, its better to lynch scummy people. What is not acceptable is no lynching. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 04 2011 03:27 sandroba wrote: @chaoser I don't see the relevance of any of this stuff you posted regarding another game, but ok. I'm not convinced your team is scum just yet. I think hyshes would be way more careful and consult with chaoser before posting that were he scum. He is a new player and that is what new players who roll scum do: they ask for advice before posting. Now, for what I said I would post about the setup: Kurumi has said it already. My sugestion is that we no lynch today and save a no lynch for later to prolong this game. This setup has a high chance of benefiting town and generating a lot of info the longer it goes. For people saying "if we don't lynch we have no chance of hitting scum". Sure, but whoever you thought is scummy isn't going to dissapear or if he does that's one saved mislynch. We are basically trading 2 nights of possible info for 1 shot in the dark day1. If someone here can say they are confident someone else is scum and prove it to us, I'm all for lynching. But despite having my suspicions I'm not willing to make this trade based on the odds I think I'm getting. I'd rather wait and no lynch today. I expected better from you sandroba. Why is the day 1 lynch invaluable? Because even if it doesn't hit scum it provides valuable information. It shows us who pushed for what, who defended, who attacked, what bandwagons formed. This "oh lets not lynch" and "let's be hesitant" is not only giving scum a free night with no guaranteed benefit its also ensuring we get to replay the derpfest that is day 1 on day 2, but down a town player. There is no guarantee that there is a dt, even if there is, he might get sniped, or get useless results. Delaying like this is super anti-town, and you should know better sandroba. This idea coming from you makes me really suspicious of your motivations. You know how valuable even a single flip is, what you are advocating is basically turning this game into a n0 start, which favors scum. I for one am going to do everything in my power to ensure a lynch goes through today, and anyone who is advocating a no-lynch is not just playing poorly, but playing anti-town. Lets say we listen to you now sandroba, and all decide to no lynch. How is scum going to be pressured if they know that they have 72 hours before they even have to worry about dying? What constructive discussion are we going to have if we have to start discussing day 2 lynches now because we are afraid to kill a townie day 1. I'm shocked and appalled that you are supporting this idea. Huge FoS, I can understand Kurumi pushing this anti-town idiocy, but sandroba? | ||
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On November 04 2011 03:44 kitaman27 wrote: Since when does town GM bully people around like this? Only when people suggest *really* stupid stuff. Also, its not bullying, notice I'm attacking the idea, not the person. The idea is idiotic, I will stand by that. No lynching day1 is super detrimental to the town. | ||
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On November 04 2011 03:49 sandroba wrote: That's why I waited until now to sugest this. We already know who pushed for what day one and got a bunch of reactions. Going ahead with the lynch with the info we have right now has a low chance of hitting scum imo. This is only anti-town if the team we end up lynching amongst those that have a chance of getting lynched based on this day one (your team, team edward and team viking) end up being scum. If you think the odds of us hitting scum today are favorable, then go ahead and consider this anti-town. I don't and I will do my part to ensure we no lynch today, unless someone comes up if a more convincing case. Your case on prpl is no where near good enough and you know it. You'd rather lynch him on this flimsy evidence? I'd rather do anything but shut down the discussion 8+ hours before the day ends. If you think there isn't a good enough case against anyone then take the initiative and find one. Do not sit down and say "huh, I don't like any of the cases so far, I guess I'll give up the town's number one advantage, and sit here and twiddle my thumbs". I'll even go as far as to say that I'd be happy to be the one lynched, as long as there was productive discussion around it and a flip at the end of the day, you know, something to base things of when you try to analyze tomorrow? Where is this passive attitude coming from sandroba? You just said there are a bunch of reactions, well take them and make a case! Do something other than sit down and no-lynch! Who do you think is scum? Why? Why are you not making a concerted push to get them lynched? | ||
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On November 04 2011 03:55 sandroba wrote: You are wrong GM, sorry. Lynching is only good for town when it hits scum. The process is good for town regardless, but going ahead with it is only favorable depending on results. From an optimization stand point regarding the setup I guarantee you town's chances are higher if we prolong the game by one night. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Lynching makes people take stances and react, things like last minute vote switches, counter bandwagons, ect can *only* be seen with a lynch, and usually in the last 2 or so hours of the lynch. My brain hurts. Seriously. You are giving the mafia team the momentum, you are letting them pick who dies. I might be more ok with this, had you pulled it out 1 hour before the lynch with the main targets looking like townies, but not only is it bad, but your timing is atrocious. You've posted this before any cases have solidified or any wagons really formed, you've basically killed any wagons scum might try to start and sabotaged the will of any townies to do analysis because "a no lynch is better". Would you be arguing this if the setup were 7 vts vs 2 reds? | ||
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On November 04 2011 03:59 sandroba wrote: You got wrapped around your head that there is only one way to play all mafia games. You don't even consider the setup when deciding which is the best course of action and this is proven by you not even knowing how many players were in this game to start with. This setup is extremelly unforgiving for mislynches and town benefits from more night actions. All possible roles have a chance of producing good info. Sit back and think for a bit instead of preaching general advice. I refuse to play follow the blue. That's how towns go to hell in a handbasket, when scum decide to fake claim. If we have blues great, but I'm going to work on the assumption that we have one blue who is going to get shot night 1, because that's the only way to make sure we stand a chance. Remember the more townies we lose, the easier it is for scum to control the lynch. | ||
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On November 04 2011 04:30 Radfield wrote: GMan, you don't get off that easy though. You built a case on Prp, then wibble-wobbled at the end of it. Your next post basically says the same thing: he might be scum, but he might not. Yet, you're vote remains squarely on Team Viking(Prp & Forumite). Do you think Team Viking is worthy of lynching right now? No, I don't, I fully admit my case was extremely weak, I was merely stirring up things to see how people reacted and try to get a better read on the situation. I voted for them with a relatively weak case because I felt like there was no real progress being made in the thread, and I wanted to open a new avenue of attack. I specifically wanted to see their reactions. I would say I wasn't as effective as I could have been because I let my uncertainty shine through. Still some interesting results did come of it. I'll be back with something interesting soon(tm) | ||
GMarshal
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TEAM RED21 We are the inquisition. We are the eyes of the emperor. Tremble Heretics and Traitors, for your time is at hand So, I've spent the last day or so, reading through people's meta and trying to figure out alignments in an attempt to give us a good lynch. As I've said, I'm not happy with the sandroba lynch, so I decided to try to find actual scum, and lo and behold, I think I have, in our good friends, kitaman and redFF. Sure lurky mclurky team Nipple needs to step up their game, but knowing RoL's scum style I'm tempted to believe he is legitimately occupied, rather than deliberately lurking. Anyway, this will be a two for one deal, two players, two different analysis. So, lets start with the xeno scum, kita: Part 1: The Xenos: Kitaman27 That, ladies and gentlemen is the face of the enemy. Purge it with fire and steel So, kitaman, let's talk about him. For the convenience of the lazy, here is his filter. Lets look at the salient features of his scum play and his town play in other games, and compare it to his behavior this game. From reading TL Mafia XXXIX- a few heuristics seem to crop up, in particular kita displays the following behaviors:
2.) Shows a particular focus on pressuring lurkers 3.) Looks for "scummy" contradictions where there are none, and for shifts in meta that don't actually prove anything This is further corroborated by his behavior in personality mafia where kita
2.) Calls out lurkers These stances are in direct contraposition to his behavior in Dr.H's Haunted Mini and in PTP2, where kita focuses not on lurkers (despite there being several), but keeping the town focused on finding scum, going as far as dragging up suspects and moving the town away from discussing the puzzles, since that allows mafia to blend in easily. Thus we can conclude that when kita is scum, he focuses on a style that allows him to blend in seamlessly with the town, by pretending to contribute, and occasionally pushing easy lynches and finding "contradictions" and "tells" not actually backed by scum motives. Keeping this in mind, we should examine his posts this game, and see what his behavior is like, watching out for three things
2.) Kita trying to appear contributory by discussing "pro-town" things that don't allow us to actually find scum, like say, lurkers 3.) Kita not making an active effort to scumhunt or find a reasonable lynch suspect. That in mind, let us look at this post On November 03 2011 09:19 kitaman27 wrote: Also, we've all read our role pms. New discussion topic please. This is a wonderful post on two fronts: it seems pro-town as it looks to move away from a terrible topic of discussion, but doesn't offer an alternative. If kita wasn't on your radar yet, this post should have put him on there. Notice how he also doesn't come up with an opinion on the person proposing the plan, or propose another topic of discussion, he simply says "move on". This is a post that contributes without contributing, it shoots down a terrible plan, yes, but it does so with out adding anything to the discussion, or telling us anything about kita or those proposing the plan. Next is the wonderful situation where kita tries to gather information on my stance on team viking, which is by itself a null tell, other than considering it took him a while to express his opinion (that team viking is town), and that he never provides very solid reasons for his opinion. Still that is relatively forgivable, as there is no inherent town or scum motivation behind those actions. And then we reach the real gem, the post I was just *waiting* for, a post taking a null tell and spinning it to kita's advantage. The post in question is quoted below On November 04 2011 03:44 kitaman27 wrote: Since when does town GM bully people around like this? There are several things of note in this post, first is the fact that this fits kita's scum meta perfectly, he is going for the "low hanging fruit", finding something that is not in any way an indicator of alignment and spinning it as such. This is *exactly* what happened when kita "caught" redtooth lying about having smurfed in other mafia games in the past, he took a completely irrelevant piece of data and tried to spin it in such a way as to discredit and throw suspicion on a townie. Furthermore there is the lack of an actual case being built around this, if kita thinks I am scum (and this post seems to indicate that), why isn't he pushing for my lynch? Possibly because its not an easy lynch? Then we get all of kita's wonderful attempts at directing attention at lurkers, you know, exactly what he did in XXXIX, frankly lurkers are another example of low hanging fruit, I have no issue with calling them out, every so often, but its something town kita doesn't do. You can see his newfound interest in non-contributors in this post, this post and this post. This fascination is not normal for kitaman. Its another attempt at buying town credit without having to work for it. Then there are the math posts. Deary me I love the math posts On November 04 2011 03:59 kitaman27 wrote: 7v2 Mislynch 5v2 Mislynch 3v2 LYLO 7v2 No lynch 6v2 No lynch 5v2 Mislynch 3v2 LYLO Essentially we are trading 1 mislynch for 48 hours of disccusion, during which nobody is threatened because they know there won't be a lynch. The odds of hitting scum statistically are unfavorable every day. That doesn't mean you don't try. Or you could try to come up with a more convincing case yourself. We agree the prpl one is bad, how about the other 6 teams? Do you know why scum, love setup discussion? Because playing with numbers is easier than scumhunting! The fact that he goes back and does all these statistics, by itself, doesn't mean much, but in conjunction with the rest of his behavior its easy to see that he is just buying credit. Also interesting is that he takes the least controversial position, supporting lynching, and only after two other people have decided to support it. Certainly not hogging the spotlight, that's for sure. On November 04 2011 05:18 kitaman27 wrote: Blues are a nice safety net, but it really doesn't benefit us that much to base our gameplan around them by no-lynching. First the jailer has to block the correct shooter, then the jailer has to consider that a doctor could have prevented the shot or that the mafia decided not to shoot, then the jailer has to decide whether he roleblocked a mafia or protected a town, then the jailer has to sucessfully push his case in the thread. Parity cop has to survive to day three to be of any use. Assuming worse case scenario where we mislynch the first two days: There is a 1/9 chance he gets lynched day one. A 2/6 chance he gets discovered or shot night one. A 1/7 chance he gets lynched day two. A 1/3 chance he gets shot night two. Which is only about a 10% sucess rate (correct me if I made a mistake here). Going with a double no lynch increases the survival rate of the parity cop slightly, but it really doesn't seem worth giving up a lynch in exchange. Again, more math, when we have already established why no-lynching is bad, kita feels the urge to keep discussing it, rather than moving on, having already made his point, he does more math, because it looks good to have huge posts that "prove" your pro-town stance. And then there is this post: On November 04 2011 10:52 kitaman27 wrote: Oh prime scum team? Funny, you haven't pointed out anything that was actually scummy. At this point, I believe the scum team is contained in this set of players. Ideally I'd like to be able to narrow it down as more people start to post, but RoL, Kurumi, Crofty, iGrok, and Katzeleute all need to give us more to work with. 1. sandroba & Sevryn Deconduo - TEAM SS 3. Radfield & wherebugsgo - TEAM CHEZINU 4. Kurumi & RebirthOfLeGenD - TEAM NIPPLE 5. Crofty & Gmarshal - TEAM LIQUID 7. chaoser & hyshes - TEAM EDWARD 8. iGrok & Katzeleute - TEAM SWITZERLAND Dear god, this post. Lets he calls out lurkers, and posts that he thinks that 6/8 other people might be scum. Wow, what a wonderful contribution! How *useful*, especially when it includes such brilliant justifications. This is essentially kita publishing a list of two town reads, for no real reason, and lo and behold! Its another long, worthless post, that doesn't directly accuse anyone of being scum! It doesn't even point out why any of those might be scum. No townie with his head screwed on straight would post this. Kita is experienced enough to know that this is a terrible post, and I cannot ascribe any town motivation to writing it. Its a clear and blatant attempt at contributing without contributing. Where are posts like On August 07 2011 06:42 kitaman27 wrote: Oh wow didn't realize the voting ended mid-day. Good thing I checked back in time. Are people around? I'm not sure I like the three main candidates. Do we have enough votes to switch to someone like Curu if necessary? He is promoting a policy lynch, without much explanation, and has put little effort compared to what I'm used to. ##Vote Curu from haunted mini, where kita actually takes stances and calls out people for being scum? Nowhere to be found, all we can find here are "suspicions" and little else, with a lot of "contributions" that don't actually say anything. Ladies and gentlemen, as can be clearly seen, kita is farming town rep without actually contributing anything, he is managing to *look* helpful, while happily not accusing anyone really and picking low hanging fruit in the form of pushing non-tells and lurkers. This man cares not for lynching scum, he just wants to look pro-town. Kitaman is scum, a xenos and a moral threat against the empire of man. Do not allow him to live Part 2: The Heretic, RedFF The enemy in our midst. To tolerate his existence is blasphemy. To allow him his life unthinkable Ah, redFF, my friend, how you have fallen. Once again, as with all good analysis, let us take a look back at past games, and compare and contrast the behavioral differences between redFF and greenFF. For my baseline scum game I will be using BC's Arkham Asylum. For his town behavior I will be using Personality Mafia and Resurrection Mafia. First of all, what does RedFF do as town?
2.) He participates in discussion and contributes actively 3.) He questions everything While he has a bunch of annoying spammy posts, in general he also contribute his thoughts and actively seeks out scum. He basically behaves as the quintessential transparent townie As scum however, his behavior is the exact opposite, he sticks to generalities (using clues to scumhunt is bad, lurking is bad, etc), he generally posts a lot of useless spam, that makes him seem active, yet never actually adds anything to discussion. He occasionally defends townies and if pushed will indicate a single target as "scum" with shoddy reasoning. So basically what we are looking for with redFF are not indications that he is scum, but rather a lack of indications that he is town. That is, if he is not active and helpful then he is almost guaranteed to be scum. That said, lets look at his filter. Anything jump out at you? Any great analytically posts? Any attempts at finding mafia? Look hard, because there are none. Where are posts like this? Nowhere to be seen. Or posts like this seeking to guide the town? Nowhere, there are none. The closest to an "accusation" that redFF manages to produce this game is On November 04 2011 10:08 redFF wrote: gmarshal is still mafia! with no analysis, no support, no leadership, nothing. All redFF has done is spew garbage. Oh, right and OMGUS with this gem On November 04 2011 11:23 redFF wrote: hes just giving his reads. its funny that this is the first time you've attacked us and its just after decon fos'd us. scum. ##unvote ##Vote wherebugsgo Once again, no reasoning, no support, just garbage. No comments on the no lynch situation other than "lol, no", without actually backing up why he thinks this, or providing an alternate avenue of discussion. This ridiculous trolling and lack of any effort or contribution is the exact opposite of how a somewhat annoying yet constructive town RedFF plays. Post like this are just entirely absent. RedFF isn't contributing because he is scum, and has no motivation to do so. RedFF is a foul heretic and a traitor and must meet his swift demise. Now. TL:DR Kitaman is scum, becuse he fails toreally contribute, instead hiding behind apparent contributions, this lines up with his scum meta. Kita is simply failing to push his usual town objectives and actively hunt scum, and is instead fostering suspicion and being unhelpful RedFF is playing an anti-town spammy style that is entirely unlike his contributory, transparent, spammy, town style. This somewhat matches his scum play, and is a clear indication that he is obviously not a townie, since he doesn't care what happens to the town. Team Red21 reeks of corruption and evil and needs to die, before they manage to taint this thread any further | ||
GMarshal
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##Unvote: Team Viking ##Vote: Team Red21 ~High Inquisitor GMarshal, of the Ordo Malleus. | ||
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On November 05 2011 00:15 supersoft wrote: hmm these 1 big fat accusationpost out of the nowhere always seem strange to me. I prefer the dialogues over these walls of text. That's why i struggeled to vote Team SS, although iGroks points points seemed reasonable to me, i was a little bit suspicious because of the sudden appearance of this wall of text. Same thing with GM... This post does not compute. I've read it three times, and I still don't get it. What is wrong with long analysis? Isn't that how you play mafia? Are you saying you disagree with my analysis? If so, why? If not why hasn't your vote moved yet? | ||
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No, I'm keeping the pictures, because I like them. I also like the fluff, if it bothers you, deal with it. The references to the old games are providing a contrast and a meta to compare you with, you know, so people have something to weigh your actions against? Addressing your "defense" in nice bold blue text On November 05 2011 00:30 kitaman27 wrote: First off, remove the pictures, flavor fluff, and irrelevent references to old games and that post would be much easier to read. On the contrary I'm trying to prevent "contributing without contributing". People were discussing an irrelevant plan that was impossible to carry out at this point in the game and I didn't like where discussion was headed. I'm not trying to label that as a "contribution". If you really want to look at a "contributing without contributing" post, just look at your reaper post that you started the game off with. Yet you didn't offer another outlet for discussion, which is what I take issue with. Town kita would have given something else to work with, if just an accusation or a push against a player, you just said "lol, no" and left it at that, "lol, no, but...." is pro-town, "lol no." is anti-town. Don't muddle the issue. You were mocking kurumi and calling his ideas retarded and idiotic. I didn't like that. Don't try to warp this as a scum agenda. No, you made a veiled accusation calling me scum and didn't push on it. You weren't saying "gm, be nice" or anything like that, you were implying that I was scum. Without going out and saying it. That's also not town behavior, if you thought my meta indicated I wouldn't do that as town, you should have elaborated, if you wanted me to back off, you should have said it. Instead you go with a veiled accusation. That's called seeding suspicion. Huh? I supported lynch because that was the correct decision. I saw a plan I didn't like and I argued against it. I'm not sure what you mean about only after two other people have decided to support it. I'm posting at the same time you are, not that its relavent. The math was setup discussion. I'm not claiming it as a sign that I'm town, I'm just sharing my opinion. As I said, scum love setup discussion. Its interesting that this is the only place you show a strong opinion You're the third person to attempt to twist my post as scummy. We need to consolidate the lynch. I posted which teams I would be unwilling to vote for based upon my town reads. I'm confident that the 2 scum teams are within the 6 teams I listed. That was 24 hours into the game. You know well enough that day one is about searching for town. I'm sharing my opinion and attempting to push the lynch away from those I see in a good light. You know better than this. You never, ever post "I think this guy is town" or even imply it, as that makes them targets, instead you pick your top three scum candidates and push them. even if behind the scenes you are town hunting. You know this, you've played enough games. You were trying to make a filler post, no bones about it. Here is what I've done so far: -The very first thing I did was random vote the newbie in an attempt to generate discussion and gauge a reaction. Nulltell! Why do you even bother to bring this up? -I respond to you accusation of team viking that they are deliberately derailing town. You respond "look at their filter" and I continue to press you to provide a valid reason, which you ultimately drop. nulltell/easy contribution! "pushing" is easy giving opinions is hard -I argue against the "no-lynch plan" because it doesn't benefit town. I argue against the "follow the blue" plan because it doesn't benefit town. uhuh, already covered this -I push several players who promise to contribute later on to share their ideas. how is this a contribution? Promises are easy to make, watch "I promise to buy you a pony!", see easy! Pushing people is *also* easy -I develop two town reads and share that I'm not willing to lynch them bad play, not something I think you would do as town. Town reads are rather... easy to gather as scum, no? I'm at work at the moment, but during lunch I'll take another read of the thread. prp/forumite, what exactly is "good" about GM's case? So your contributions boil down to "I haven't contributed anything! Accused anyone of being scum or done anything remotely pro-town! I also ignore all the meta arguments, since I have no defense!" Congratulations, you *still* have to contribute any reads other than your town reads (lol), best of all your defense is incredibly convenient in that it ignores the points you consider inconvenient. You are scum. Sure as day. | ||
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On November 05 2011 00:37 supersoft wrote: @gm, what do you think of the sandro case? i think it's still good, sevs replacement doesnt change anything there. he was irrelevant for me... i need a few minutes to filter kita and red and look up the old games. I think its ridiculous, scum wouldn't stick their neck out there like sandroba just did, much less in a majority game where an overeger mob is likely to get excited and lightning lynch someone who proposes a plan that looks anti-town. I very much doubt sandroba is scum at this time. | ||
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On November 05 2011 00:51 redFF wrote: there are no clues in this game, i haven't talked about lurking once. i haven't defended anyone and i have had scumreads on you and wbg this game, and also team SS (which ill get to) i counter you with PYP interesting, i am in a hydra with ON I think its fairly obvious who is posting what. i was town. also PTP2 both games im town, both games i post spammy one liners. Contrary to your belief GM, you don't need to post page long walls of bullshit to be town. NOW HERE'S SOMETHING INTERESTING GM posts long fos, decon sheeps it with no original thought, decon attempts to start shitty bandwagon on a townie to save his scummy ass from being lynched. ##Unvote ##Vote Team SS Please continue to misrepresent my arguments, it just solidifies the case. I know you spam, but when you are town you also usually contribute. You know, what I wrote in my huge ass argument, about how even though you spam you also give insight and reads, you contribute. Yes, contributing that thing you have failed to do all game long? Only scum wait till they are actively threatened to start contributing. This is almost exactly what happened in Arkham, you were accused and wham, suddenly you have a bunch more contributory posts! I'm not saying you are scum for defending yourself. I'm merely saying you are scum defending himself. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:03 redFF wrote: ah, so i can't defend myself Not really well not from not having contributed at all. What you *can* do is offer an alternate lynch, with good supporting arguments! That would go a long way towards remedying the whole "hasn't done anything all game long" argument. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:04 redFF wrote: gm you ignored my examples aswell as what i said about team ss Because it only came up now, when I have you on the chopping block. Too little too late. Why didn't you share these earlier? The fact that I had to call you scum in a massive post and get two votes on you before you gave anything says you don't really care about the town, only about your own neck. As far a PYP:I goes, your shared smurf has some decent posts, so I can also truthfully say you contributed there. What you can't do is say "obviously all the bad posts were mine" because that is unverifiable, its impossible to know which posts were yours and which ON's. At worst it has to be ignored, at best it supports my arguments. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:05 redFF wrote: in fact after filtering you i notice you haven't said a thing about team SS, the team leading in votes, all game. SCUMPARTNERS MUCH? I said "I don't think sandroba is scum" several times. Learn to read. Lovely reaction to being accused though. He accuses me "HE MUST BE SCUM". | ||
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I want to hear what other people think of the case, especially supersoft, who I have my eye on and radfeild who usually shows solid judgement. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:14 redFF wrote: holy crap you're now lying scum. and you ignored ptp ... Ok, last post I'm replying to before leaving this to the tender mercies of everyone else: Are you seriously saying posts like On May 31 2011 06:01 redFF wrote: I generally don't like policy lynches, because there are always special circumstances. LAL fine though, you don't need to state it at the beginning of the thread. On May 31 2011 06:50 redFF wrote: Oh if i was mafia who would I hit? Bumatlarge and GM have both shown strong play in games i have observed/played in. BC has a reputation as a good player too. As for this game i'm getting town vibes off both bum and BC, not so much off GM(This isn't me calling him scum). If i was going to say now who i wanted protected i would say Bum and BC. On May 31 2011 08:13 redFF wrote: I'm happy people started to call out Varpulis, especially experienced players, as his posting doesn't sit too well with me. He made a valid point and you told him to come at you? I don't see why a town player would do this. No he doesn't want you to stop posting. He wants you to stop posting bad, pointless stuff. This is weird, I'm not so sure we can be sure mafia has plenty of kp. Also saying you wouldn't be surprised if you saw some 3rd party roles when the OP says they are a distinct possibility is kind of weird and unnecessary. I know this was said jokingly but i think GM might have a point. I don't think I would make a joke like that as town. Could be nothing i guess. (All from PTP) Were not contributions? Because they certainly look like contributions to me. Face it, no game where you are town are you this deliberately unhelpful. By exclusion, you are not town. Now quickly produce a case, I want to see who you consider scum enough to lynch today. Who knows, maybe it will be enough to save you! | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:48 redFF wrote: nice try though Oh, you mean posts like On July 25 2011 10:44 redFF wrote: Because scum can see which roles threaten them and block/shoot accordingly...Plus mafia could call out people for fake-claiming and possibly fake claim themselves. Analysis wins games not roles! On July 25 2011 11:59 redFF wrote: Give it to sandroba, from his reaction to having the stick and not sneakily giving it to his mafia team member and not telling the thread, I have him as town or mafia but not with jackal or ON. Give it back to sandroba, the less kp the better. On July 25 2011 14:43 redFF wrote: It could just be like You are harry potter and you know he who must not be named is evil and a douche and scary and a snake man but somehow he has become part of town, MUST BE A DISGUISE!!! So i wouldn't necessarily say that Jackal lied while doing that. That said, it's the best evidence we have so far and I would be fine with a Jackal lynch. I think the stuff that someone brought up about Drazerk was the most damning evidence though. Ima wait for Jackal to post tommorow before i cast my vote. On July 26 2011 03:56 redFF wrote: What was your penalty? Good job Supersoft, I didn't get a pm telling me tackster's alignment, was that a mistake? I'm still weary of Jackal. Behaviourally i'm not noticing anything that scummy though. I'm tired of Kurumi getting away from doing jack-shit every game and doing no analysis and just trolling so i'm voting him until something better comes up. kita-iirc he played this way early on in the first ptp and was town and a lot of people(mainly mafia) jumped on him for it to get an easy lynch, I suggest someone starts quoting supersoft though. i will do it if necesssary. On July 26 2011 10:24 redFF wrote: Supersoft killed a mafia day 1. This is the same terrible reasoning that got palmar lynched. Let's think for a second. Tackster is copycat and gets supersoft's role. Tackster shoots YM, if they were both scum supersoft could have just claimed the shot right? Why would Supersoft kill his scumbuddy? SS is not scum as far as im concerned. He's asked bc to quote him so he can alignment check and BC has refused, arguing SS is untrustworthy, when SS killed a mafia day 1. SS telling us BC is scum would get BC lynched but if BC is town we would just kill SS, so that wouldn't happen. The only reason I can think BC is refusing the alignment check is because he is afraid of what he will come up as... ##Vote BC Huh, some actually hepful posts from that game, not a bunch of one line garbage that helps no one but the mafia. In your words, lol, nice try. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:53 redFF wrote: except im posting content in this game. and i'm partnered with someone else. ... content like? The first actual contribution you make is after my accusation. Anyone can verify this with the filter button... Or are you refering to this OMGUS On November 04 2011 11:23 redFF wrote: hes just giving his reads. its funny that this is the first time you've attacked us and its just after decon fos'd us. scum. ##unvote ##Vote wherebugsgo or perhaps to On November 04 2011 04:02 redFF wrote: an idiotic sandroba plan! ofcourse! we are lynching today lol maybe On November 04 2011 03:10 redFF wrote: jesus christ lol we're lynching today. i fear for you when RoL sees that post kurumi. or On November 03 2011 09:10 redFF wrote: and then you accidentally lead the bandwagon on your godfather.... all these *wonderful* contributions, which say NOTHING about anyone around you. Stop clutching at straws. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:54 kitaman27 wrote: Ok, its unfortunate that it has come to this, but we are the Parity Cop. Congrats :/ We are claiming for the following reasons: The best case scenario at this point is a no-lynch with the afk prp/forumite vote and a tunneling GM. Even if we came up with a target like chaoser, he is obviously not going to vote for himself, nor is his scum buddy, so if we want to accomplish anything today, the claim is necessary. I'd rather give up our identity than throw away a lynch. We are claiming early enough in the day that there is still time to push a lynch. As for who that should be, we are still discussing that. We don't want Team Viking, which is what team chaoser seems to be pushing. As I mentioned before, without protection and a series of mislynches, the parity cop only has about a 10% sucess rate. If there is a 66% there is a protection role in the setup, which helps our chances of staying alive. As I mentioned in the ban thread earlier, its possible for blues to breadcrumb their roles with the first post, which is what I did. It's not absolute proof of the claim, but know that the claim was prepared from the start. What we can 100% confirm is that nobody else is the parity cop. Facepalm... Time to reconsider everything. | ||
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On November 05 2011 01:59 redFF wrote: so the first one is a vote and an fos, the second and third ones are commenting on a plan brought forth, the fourth one points out a flaw in a plan put forward. nice try though. You just claimed, so I'm done accusing you till I reevaluate, however I could easily go through a point how each and every one of your posts says pretty much nothing , so don't push it. Chaoser, you said you had a case on prplhz, is that forthcoming? | ||
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On November 03 2011 08:12 redFF wrote: for the first part, i totally disagree. it's not like a pressure vote will turn into a 6 hour quicklynch, and if it does, then that's not always a bad thing. I prefer this method of voting tbh, don't look at it as a negative, but as a positive! Change is fun and exciting! for the second part yes and yes. Yay, irrelevant setup discussion On November 03 2011 09:08 redFF wrote: whatever bro, i was really busy in pypi and barely ever posted. you don't have to be a dick especially when you agree with me. of course we consider the behavior of both players but if one guy is obv scum you dont just go other guy looks town derp. Yay for more saying obvious things! On November 03 2011 09:10 redFF wrote: and then you accidentally lead the bandwagon on your godfather.... Irrelevant utterly useless post doesn't actually say anything lets just show agreement, that is a CONTRIBUTION On November 03 2011 09:32 redFF wrote: please use punctuation! Clearly only a townie would demand periods! On November 03 2011 09:40 redFF wrote: the only combination of 2 good players is 3. Radfield & wherebugsgo and ME AND KITA OF COURSE This is relevant, how, exactly? It says nothing about anyone's alignment. On November 03 2011 10:00 redFF wrote: where is the lol coming from, do you agree with my assessment? yelling at a player who isn't even in the game On November 03 2011 11:52 redFF wrote: NICE TRY SCUM WHO DOESN'T WANNA DO EXTRA WORK Player brings up a legitimate concern about the spirit of the rules, THROW JOKING FOS at him. Incredibly useful, especially when you accusation is backed up with evidence and you can later say this post was "just a joke" Helpful how? On November 04 2011 03:10 redFF wrote: jesus christ lol we're lynching today. i fear for you when RoL sees that post kurumi. everyone yells at kurumi for a terrible plan, let me bandwagon that. Have I made any serious accusations yet? NOPE On November 04 2011 04:02 redFF wrote: an idiotic sandroba plan! ofcourse! we are lynching today lol see above On November 04 2011 10:07 redFF wrote: meh you usually say that at l-1 grok! Incredibly useful insight, thanks! I now know all your thoughts On November 04 2011 10:08 redFF wrote: gmarshal is still mafia! unsupported accusation once again, words without thought are worthless. On November 04 2011 11:23 redFF wrote: hes just giving his reads. its funny that this is the first time you've attacked us and its just after decon fos'd us. scum. ##unvote ##Vote wherebugsgo OMGUS vote with poor justification again. Happy redff?, I did as you asked. Now I wonder *where* I got the idea you were being unhelpful after seeing these gems. Now who would you like to lynch today? | ||
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On November 05 2011 02:12 kitaman27 wrote: Not a moment of questioning it? You're willing to buy the claim? For all you know, we could just be hoping that there isn't a PC. Or we could be trying to draw out the true parity cop. I said until i reevaluate, I may still conclude you are scum. Notice my vote hasn't moved. | ||
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that huge wall where I went post by post was because you said you wanted to push it, there you go. Your wish is my command and all that. | ||
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I am now going to go attend boring meetings, I expect to see the case on prpl when I get back | ||
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Lets get talking people, we need to figure out who we are going to lynch today, and we need to hit scum, sitting here twiddling our thumbs isn't going to get us anywhere. So, Sandroba and Radfield, who would you guys like to lynch today? | ||
GMarshal
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On November 06 2011 10:44 kitaman27 wrote: GM, after your case on me and red fell through, you said you were going to "reevaluate things", yet you never returned to the thread. Earlier in the day you said Team Viking was not worthy of a lynch and that your case on them was "extremely weak", yet without any further explanation your team votes to lynch them. What happened to change your mind? EBWOP[/QUOTE] I didn't change my mind. My partner made a last minute call to avoid a no lynch, and I think it was a good call, I still don't think there was a good case on team viking, and would have rather lynched team edward out of the choices when the day ended yesterday. Still we avoided a no-lynch, which is crucial. | ||
GMarshal
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responding to kita (its not like the thread is so active that I need to quote so you see who I am talking to): I didn't change my mind. My partner made a last minute call to avoid a no lynch, and I think it was a good call, I still don't think there was a good case on team viking, and would have rather lynched team edward out of the choices when the day ended yesterday. Still we avoided a no-lynch, which is crucial. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 06 2011 11:48 kitaman27 wrote: You never mentioned edward in the thread? If he was your preferred lynch, was there a reason you didn't state so? Is he still your preferred lynch and if so, why is that? Of the three choices at lynch time, edward, viking and SS, I think edward was the best possibility. I didn't state it, because I wasn't here for the last few hours of the day, fortunately Crofty was, and did what had to be done, I do believe he voted for team edward before having to change our vote to avoid a no-lynch, yes? As to who the best lynch for today is, I'm not sure yet, I need to re-read the thread and try to get a feel for it, especially considering the death of the iGrok team, I need to see who they thought was suspicious and any other interesting connection or reasons why they might have been killed. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 06 2011 12:04 kitaman27 wrote: I was referring to Radfield's absence mainly. As for "casually" mentioning it, it just didn't see like there was much determination, but I'll drop it. I assume before you left, you discussed with Crofty who you felt should be lynched? Did you mention that you felt Viking was a poor lynch? Why was it something that "had to be done"? You don't lynch someone you think is a poor lynch just for the sake of lynching someone, no? I didn't discuss anything before leaving, actually, I just kind of left, poor play on my part, but I'm busy, and didn't realize I would miss the lynch. As I;ve advocated, day 1 a lynch is crucial, and there were already 4 votes on the candidate, which means that in a traditional deadline lynch they would be killed, then yes, you might vote for a sub-optimal lynch, someone you are not sure is scum (not someone you are sure is town, obviously, but someone who your reads are unclear on), to make sure you don't have what happened in the newbie game happen, where town spends all of day 2 derping in circles. I've already talked about how having a lynch flip to work with day 2 is essential, so I won't bore you with another diatribe. Yes it had to be done, I stand by that, one of the main lynch candidates had to die, so that the following day would not be "more about team viking". | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 06 2011 12:35 chaoser wrote: LOl, what was the case against me again? Gm, you didn't even talk about my team while crofty has contributed nothing, his only reason was agreeing with wbg on his bullshit case. Your team has done absOlytely nothing. Also, if I was mafia, why would I try to make sure there wasn't a no lunch, offering my team and Viking as valid lynches. Sorry, your right, I haven't written any walls of text, promoted activity or made any meaningful accusations. Please, point out what you have done, other than defend yourself desperately. I'm not saying you are mafia, although your pissed off attitude is rather unlike what I expect of you, I'm saying that between you and team viking I had more of a town feeling on viking than on you, nothing personal, but between the two choices, I would have rather seen you dead. I didn't really talk about your team, because first I was sure kita/redff were scum, then I had to leave before really settling who the hell I wanted to vote for. By the time I got back the lynch was over. Ten thousand apologies, but at least half my team was here for the lynch. Also LOL, I've been one of the most active people in this game, the fact that you have the gall to call me useless suggests to me that you aren't even reading the thread. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 06 2011 14:54 sandroba wrote: Ok I gather you guys think each other is mafia but I'd like to see a well constructed argument from both of you. It's indeed suspicious that wbg/rad didn't get shot tonight, but honestly they have not been on my radar before the day shift. I want to hear more from hyshes/radfield aswell as rol. Previous game are irrelevant, but of course meta plays a role. The main thing making me lean towards chaoser scum right now is the fact that hyshes is totally gone and that is unexpected considering what chaoser said previously. Also RoL needs to post. I'm not afraid of lynching someone that doesn't give a fuck about this game, and you can bear the blame of the loss if you are town. Of all the things that make you suspicious of chaoser the fact that hyshes is MIA, which chaoser has no control over, is what makes you suspicious? Also if you had to lynch someone right now, in the next 15 minutes, who would you lynch? | ||
GMarshal
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On November 07 2011 05:01 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm really interested in GM's, super's, and kita's thoughts, since they are my best townreads at this point. I'm going to be gone for a few hours though. Also, Radfield says he's still quite sick but he'll try to step it up by tomorrow. It kinda sucks because I was hoping I this game would be more of a partner discussion type of thing I'm exceedingly busy helping run the first team liquid MLP Marathon I'll get back to you tonight, when we are done with this frenzy. | ||
GMarshal
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On November 07 2011 21:09 deconduo wrote: If you are town, the fact that you can come into the thread and make comments like this yet even one relevent post is beyond you make me sad. There's a pretty good chance of you getting lynched and I would much prefer if you came back to make some sort of a fight. Team Chezinu has to die today, if they don't this game is lost. The AFKers are too willing to sheep WBG because its easy to agree with someone who makes long posts if you don't actually read them and realise how repetitve and meaningless they are. How are his posts repetitive and meaningless? Its easy to make blanket statements, harder to prove them. Prove it, decon. As to everyone who is using "if I were scum, I would have killed team Chezinu", I suggest you read up on the term, WIFOM. Maybe scum is outsourcing the problem, maybe they were afraid of jailkeepers, maybe they were high, don't make assumptions based on who the mafia kills. The only people who can say for sure why someone died is the mafia. Seriously, you guys want team chezinu lynched? Provide a case, because right now, I'm seeing "wbg is active and rad is a good player, they are alive, ergo, scum!" Also, I kind of want to kill team nipple so we don't have to deal with them tomorrow, when it might be lylo. I mean I was going to analyze them, but between the both of them they have *maybe* 20 posts, most of which don't accuse anyone or *do* anything. That said, I'm not entirely sure that they are scum, it would be a lot easier to figure out if they posted more!. T.T Also, has anyone noticed that supersoft and greymist haven't been doing much? What do you guys think about the current situation? More posts coming up shortly as I reread the game. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 06 2011 17:49 wherebugsgo wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 06 2011 14:54 sandroba wrote: Ok I gather you guys think each other is mafia but I'd like to see a well constructed argument from both of you. It's indeed suspicious that wbg/rad didn't get shot tonight, but honestly they have not been on my radar before the day shift. I want to hear more from hyshes/radfield aswell as rol. Previous game are irrelevant, but of course meta plays a role. The main thing making me lean towards chaoser scum right now is the fact that hyshes is totally gone and that is unexpected considering what chaoser said previously. Also RoL needs to post. I'm not afraid of lynching someone that doesn't give a fuck about this game, and you can bear the blame of the loss if you are town. hmmm... I don't really know how to approach this post lol. I kinda like it I guess? But I dunno, something seems up with you, sandro. I can't really put my finger on it. Does anyone else feel this way? I do, however, agree with this: On November 06 2011 15:08 sandroba wrote: I'd lynch kurumi and rol. Next to chaoser, kurumi and RoL are one of the teams that is pretty up there in terms of scumminess. What's weird, though, is that you supported Kurumi's no-lynch plan and you are almost as inactive as Kurumi (albeit RoL has done literally nothing) I'm not sure how to read sandro's team at this point, but I think they might be a good option. Finally, here's a compilation of the chaoser+hyshes case, so it's easier for people to read. Also, big apologies for destroying a couple pages of the thread; I've been trying to reduce my postcount since XLV but it's obvious I haven't learned yet. I don't intend to spam or intimidate people out of posting their opinions. (quite the contrary, I like active contribution) chaoser and hyshes My suspicions on these two players started with this post, and it more or less describes the hyshes half: On November 03 2011 08:42 hyshes wrote: Actually the best way of playing this kind of mafia is splitting up your team. If only one of you knows your role, then only one can make mistakes. The only thing you need to do together is analysis of the other teams. To prevent any possible mistakes, must the one who knows the role only paraphrase what his teammate says. Ofcourse by the second night the one who knows should tell the one who don't (a few nights later depending on the size of the game). There is an obvious easy mistake to make here: the role should always be hidden, even it's town. First thing hyshes posts in the thread, and it basically suggests we should minimize mistakes at all costs. As I pointed out repeatedly, (as did prpl+Forumite) only scum want to minimize mistakes, and only scum are afraid of being caught. Townies should not be afraid of making mistakes because they really have nothing to fear. Townies can go out there and state their opinions freely; they do not need to be overly careful and they do not need to be deathly afraid of making mistakes. Certainly, townies need to exercise judgment and restraint when they are wrong, but they never need to be afraid of being wrong. The behavior of hyshes certainly pushed the notion that he was afraid of being wrong, since he even posted afterward that he expected to be hailed as a genius for his plan. Lastly, two more things hammered in my suspicion of hyshes. One was this post, the sole other "contribution" hyshes made to this game. On November 05 2011 02:23 hyshes wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2011 20:59 Forumite wrote: It´s not abusing mechanics, it´s using what you have in order to win. The biggest advantage of an IRL-mafia is gone, we can´t see the other players, but it´s not like reading faces is "abusing the mechanics" in an IRL-game, it´s just part of the game, like going back and checking posts is in a forum game. Chaoser is absolutely correct in that forgeable logs can loose Town the game, I just don´t agree with reflexively throwing away tools that might have helped us. This still doesn´t excuse how Chaoser and hyshes has acted in other respects, Chaoser taking a backseat while his partner suggest Anti-Town plans. I thought Chaoser would have stepped in if he thought hyshes was making a fool of himself, instead he waited until he was called out. Chaoser was actively lurking while his team was being accused, that doesn´t make sense, unless he was weathering the storm, hoping that hyshes would be excused because of him being new. One player is acting scummy, and the other just happens to be acting scummy, makes me suspect they are a scumteam. ##Vote TEAM EDWARD + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2011 07:52 prplhz wrote: Well I'm sold, I hope Forumite feels the same way 'cause: ##Unvote ##Vote Team SS + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2011 11:57 Forumite wrote: I´ve got my eyes on Team Nipple, both of them. Let me show you some relevant posts:+ Show Spoiler + It´s actually the only relevant posts since the game started, and there´s 2 of them... On November 04 2011 02:31 Kurumi wrote: Kurufesto It's good to be back, guys. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2011 07:45 GMarshal wrote: Cool, a game of mafia [/cent er] It's traditional at this point to post a picture of the reaper So, Iets do this thing. First thing first As usual there is no excuse for lurking, don't do it and you won't have me lobbing for your lynch. Seriously, 2 players per team should mean a more than decent level of activity, you aren't going to get away with 2~3 posts per cycle unless they are an outstanding, wall of text, analytical set of three posts. So post, transparency and information means we have a greater chance of success. Second thing (this should *not* be a point of discussion, as what I am about to talk about is too general for us to really talk about, I just wanted to make sure it was said). Because there are no vigilantes, if we have a jailkeeper he should be using his protect/roleblock offensively, that is "protecting" scum in an attempt to roleblock the kill, rather than going after the most outspoken townies and possibly roleblocking a power role. This style should encourage activity (scum no longer want to risk being lurkers if it might make their kill fail) and with the possibility of a medic in play scum still cannot afford to shoot the top players. Other than that there isn't that much to say on the setup until we get later in the day and can talk about dt lists and such. My lurker policy remains the same as always, and yeah, that's about it. I am against lynching lurkers. First, the setup is really small, so we should delay the game and make it as long as we could. Scum, unless terrible or really overloaded with RL stuff (they shouldn't join game then, but hey it happens) won't lurk. Remember, scum are those MIDDLE guys, not so active or inactive to draw attention. "But it sounds so cool Kurumi... go get them Yourself, let me derp my way to LYLO" Yeah I know Towns on TL are quite damn lazy and with all the info coming out at the beginning of the game, quoting guides by either side and stuff like that and forget all of it after D1 lynch but.. I am not going to forget, I wish to play my best this game. "But Kurumi, Mafia has a Role Cop!" With 1 blue, they will have hard time finding Team with it. With 2 blues, we will get enough protection/information to retaliate strong enough. Remember, the more time Parity Cop gets, the stronger we are, because he can slowly confirm people. I think we shouldn't worry about Mafia Role Cop too much. Lurker lynch is a bad idea. We either no-lynch or lynch the scummiest fuckers out there. With a mislynch, Mafia ALREADY got their KP per cycle! If we don't get a good protect/block or we just don't have roles for it, 2 people are dead by Day 2. Meanwhile, Mafia Role Cop has checked one of the roles. That means, 3 out of 7 people roles are known to Mafia, another lynch and it's 4 out of 5, if the (only one) blue survived to this time, he will be killed during the night, no matter the lynch result. Summary: Lurker lynch is a terrible idea, Mafia rarely lurk without any special plan. No lynch does not put us behind: Our blue will survive longer this way. Lynch = scummiest person, remember! Try to keep Your post readable... I am trying, so You should too. On November 04 2011 02:49 Kurumi wrote: Lurker lynching is often an excuse not to lynch someone, just add "I dunno, he doesn't seem so scummy to me" and voila, You've got Your lurker lynch. Giving You no information about people who voted on the lurker (and we probably won't have this problem) and giving You a green flip. Day 1 lurker lynch is.. worse than a no-lynch, because we will hit town on 99% of basis. Analysis: + Show Spoiler + Kurumi makes two policy posts, both saying that lynching lurkers is a bad idea, then proceed to lurk again. I don´t know if this is some crazy plan by a scumteam to confuse Town, or if they´ve just given up on the game, but whatever it is they need to snap out of it and post. If we are looking for anti-Town behavior, then here it is, and they deserve to be lynched for it. First TEAM VIKING is trying to get all kinds of votes going on different teams. And then, out of the blue, without metioning team red21 before, they directly go along with GM's post. + Show Spoiler + On November 05 2011 01:08 Forumite wrote: I don´t have much time to post. I just want to say that I support GM's case and throwing mine and prplhz's vote to support it. We won´t be here for the lynch, but I think it´s the best place to put that vote right now, so that´s what we have to go by. If something huge comes up before the deadline then I expect there to be enough people online that one vote won´t much matter. ##Unvote ##Vote Team Red21 Also: FoS Nipple, post moar! This was the vote that spawned the prpl+forumite bandwagon. We cannot forget this, as this is probably the single most important thing that happened yesterday. (yes, even more important than kita+redFF claiming PC) The entire vote is based on the idea that Forumite and prpl were throwing their vote around on different players. Somehow, (even to chaoser) this became a scumtell. This vote was completely unreasoned, and to me it came across with a scum agenda; get the attention off of themselves by leading the lynch on someone else. The fact that the vote lacks analysis (both on the part of hyshes and on the part of chaoser) is suggestive of the fact that prpl and Forumite were just scapegoats. Hyshes and chaoser picked a weak team to target and quickly relieved themselves of a lot of pressure. In the end, the bandwagon worked and it saved them from a lynch. The third and last thing that hyshes did was he disappeared after this. Just dropped off the face of the Earth, and he hasn't been here since. For a team that was supposed to be chaoser coaching hyshes, this is incredibly suspicious, particularly as chaoser has many times the number of posts hyshes has. That doesn't sound like chaoser is coaching hyshes at all. Now, the chaoser half: On November 04 2011 03:10 chaoser wrote: First of all, that game was only a mafia win because Aidnai decided to WIFOM himself into voting with someone THAT WASN'T EVEN THERE TO DEFEND HIMSELF. Secondly how am I trying to shut down discussion? I said the "post your team convo lawl plan" was bullshit and not playing to the spirit of the game and that I wouldn't stand for it. Palmer decided he agreed and added in the new rule, I then said that a mafia mind doesn't generally think up stupid shitty plans. Go read any number of games but especially LoTR's opening days where tons of shitty plans came forward and all of them were by townies. Dumb play/=Mafia. Where in any of the things that I just said does "HE IS SHUTTING DOWN DISCUSSION!" come into play? I'm actually ADDING to discussion by pointing out my opinions. Thanks for summarizing my stance and posting nothing here. Also, are you trying to say that you know what hyshes' motive are in posting that? I didn't realize you were psychic. How do you know for a fact that hyshe wasn't trying to draw mafia out? How do you know he's NOT bad at making plans? How do you know what he was thinking when he posted that plan? Have you played with him before? Are you talking to him in PMs? Oh right, you're not and you've never played a game with him. What shitty logic. This is the first post that originally stood out to me from chaoser. Highlighted are the important parts. red=dismissed prpl's statement rather angrily (or so it appeared to me) without actually addressing his point. Prpl was stating that this game is not specifically a mentor-type game, with the implication that chaoser can't just cop out of being here because he's coaching hyshes. Chaoser instead takes offense to the statement that he got himself lynched as DT. (missing the point) green=once again, missing the point. Chaoser focuses on the notion that the bad plan doesn't make hyshes scum, though he does nothing to address the motivation concerns. In fact, the crux of the argument against hyshes had nothing to do with the plan at all, but rather the reasoning behind the plan. This can be seen with prpl's reference to the fact that he thought, "it was conceived by a mafia mind." Also, he incorrectly and misleadingly exaggerates by implying that only townies post bad plans: Go read any number of games but especially LoTR's opening days where tons of shitty plans came forward and all of them were by townies. This is actually completely false. I actually remembered one certain someone posting a plan in LoTR, who was universally thought to be town for quite a while, until chaoser himself shot him. This person was none other than my current partner. The FIRST plan that was posted in LoTR: + Show Spoiler [LoTRRadfieldPlan] + On September 17 2011 09:32 Radfield wrote: HOW TO AVOID A DAY 1 SHITSTORM by Radfield Raddisson The key to avoiding a crappy Day 1 culminating in a no-evidence townie lynch is to figure out our priorities. What do we actually want on Day 1? First, we want to get everyone down on paper. Thoughts, feelings, vibes, etc. I really don't care what you're saying right now, I just want you to say it. Second, establish a baseline of activity. PlayerA makes 20 posts Day 1 and 5 Day 2, that's a problem since there is very little to talk about on Day 1 and a whole lot more on Day 2. Step 3, avoid lynching an easy target. This is a player with a few bad posts, or some flip floppy votes, or a badly phrased 'scum slip'. Easy targets give scum great excuses to get on a bandwagon. Instead we're going to lynch someone who is fairly active, but not saying anything worthwhile. With 5 posts per cycle it means we're going to have something to go on, however likely not till the later half of Day 1. Which leads to: Step 4. Hold your votes. Slamming votes around 6-12 hours into the game is not productive. Take off your scum-goggles and allow people to post. Have a suspicious person in mind? Great, sit on it and let them keep posting. See if they keep posting scummy stuff.... THEN attack them. All players should be keeping a spreadsheet with notes/roles/activity levels/ etc. Posts like this(mine) should not be given consideration when you are trying to determine a players alignment. Are there helpful tips in my post? Absolutely. Have I said anything remotely game related? Absolutely not. Anyone can talk in generalities. Anyone can offer advice. Honestly, I cannot stress how important it is to keep a spreadsheet. If you don't know who's still alive in the game, or who claimed what, or which players voted for whom, then how can you make informed decisions? For those who don't remember, Radfield was scum. So much for "only townies post plans day 1 and put themselves out there", eh? The only other player I can recall who even made a plan that game was Trancestorm. And if it's somehow specifically a bad plan that makes it different, then we haven't even considered sandro's plan from PYP, have we? Pretty bad plan it was, IMO, and the way he pushed that plan caused me to be suspicious of him from nearly the beginning of the game. Indeed, this game he pushed a fairly bad plan too, but I'm not sure of him in this game because the way he approached it was different. In fact, his behavior has just been giving me ??? all over the place because I can't find consistency in this game. blue= Chaoser misses the point for the third time in a row and once again twists prpl's words. In chaoser's own words, either a townie intentionally posts a bad plan to draw out mafia (and prpl calls out chaoser on this, since chaoser is mentioning a scenario that doesn't apply) or a townie posts a bad plan because he is bad at coming up with plans. There is nothing that just automatically makes townies worse at coming up with plans. The idea itself is stupid, and indeed you are committing self-deceit if you simply and almost automatically assume anyone who comes up with a bad plan is town. prpl correctly and very effectively points out that mafia have a vested interest in appearing like they are contributing. Posting a plan is a great way to do this. Indeed, we need to look at classic behavioral tells that suggest that it is indeed a scum posting a bad plan and then trying to get away with it, and we later see that this is exactly the case with hyshes. As prpl stated, this was the one situation (scum trying to appear town) that chaoser very conveniently glossed over in his posts about who posts plans and why. In looking to establish whether the plan poster is scum or not, we would need to look at the behavior after the post. Scum would want to feign contribution and then fly under the radar to remain unsuspecting. This is exactly what hyshes did. After the plan was posted, he really didn't do anything. Then, when it came to crunch time and it was apparent that he and chaoser would be a focus for the lynch, he started the bandwagon on prpl+forumite and promptly disappeared. The next post of chaoser that tipped me off further was this: On November 04 2011 05:36 chaoser wrote: Says my team is scummy, doesn't vote for us. ??? This post suggested to me that chaoser didn't have a vested interest in reading the thread. He seemed to only be interested in who was suspicious of his team. Indeed, his first suspicions were of prpl, and it certainly seemed like it was in reaction to prpl pressuring chaoser on the plan/hyshes business. For someone who kept getting outraged over people using "shitty logic," I found it extremely weird that chaoser wasn't reading the thread properly, so as to completely miss my vote on his team. How can a person who is concerned with proper logic employ said logic without a proper foundation of information that is gathered through actually reading the thread? On November 04 2011 06:31 chaoser wrote: Also, I'm not even panicking. Only 2 votes and 24+ hours left in the day? I didn't even know you voted for me so that'd be 1 vote and 24+ hours left in the day when I posted my previous stuff. Defense does not equal panic. Once again missing the point. At this point, chaoser has done enough things that seem strange that I begin to think that he isn't just "missing" the point, he's doing it intentionally and he's twisting things as he finds them convenient. I never equated his defense of himself to him panicking. I said it seemed like he was panicking because he completely missed my vote on him, instead very aggressively showing suspicions of anyone who suspected him (myself and prpl, really) This post: On November 05 2011 00:44 chaoser wrote: My teammate should be posting our read sometime soon. Like I said before, I'd rather be on as an advisory role. Is far more important now than it was at the time chaoser posted it. At the time chaoser posted it, I expected to see more of hyshes in the thread. I expected to see him post some sort of analysis on team viking and for him to step up activity in the thread, with chaoser probably tuning his activity down. Clearly that's not what we have seen; indeed, it has been the complete opposite. Hyshes has just completely disappeared, while chaoser has tripled his activity. Rather strange for someone who is simply supposed to be in an advisory capacity. On November 05 2011 02:49 chaoser wrote: While I will concede the point that mafia generally don't like to move their vote around multiple times a day, I don't concede the point that they don't do it. I've played in multiple games where mafia, especially newer players, have done that on the misconception that they will "blend in" with the rest of the players if they're part of a majority vote. The logic of using "I was wrong in the lynch but so was everyone else that voted for them" as an argument when a player flips town is something that DOES happen. But that's not the main point of the prp/forumite suspicions. They went after exclusively lurker teams or "easy targets" as I like to call them. They also showed a disregard to what their actual suspicions were, being very cavalier with their vote as well as their own reasoning/cases. Multiple times they posted a case and then were completely fine when their teammate wrote a case about someone else and then voted for that someone else without question. Finally, they decided to rest their vote on a team that they themselves didn't even push for (red21), citing GM's argument as "good" as the only reason for voting for them. It's the "I don't give a damn who gets lynched" attitude that's suspicious to me. This post was strange to me simply because chaoser was introducing reasons for prpl/Forumite being scum that weren't present in the actual vote that hyshes posted. He said earlier that hyshes was coming along with the reasoning for voting prpl/forumite. Hyshes posted the vote by simply quoting the three voteposts of prpl and Forumite, saying that they were scum because they were voting a lot (wtf?) Again, for someone like chaoser who is so concerned with shitty logic, the logic couldn't get shittier. How does "voting a lot" make someone scum? Finally, the hypocrisy of the red and bolded part is astonishing. Chaoser claimed that the actual, main reason for voting prpl/forumite was that they were exclusively going after lurker teams or "easy targets." In the same vein, chaoser's team was pursuing one of the easiest targets of all. This was only proved by how easily prpl and forumite got bandwagoned and lynched. Pretty much every vote for them was completely baseless and stupid. On November 05 2011 02:58 chaoser wrote: To expand on this point, in a small game like this, especially since it's so active, I very much doubt that mafia will be lurking or even inactive. Those are tactics that mafia teams of 6 use for late game survival when it's Day 8 and there's a sea of lurking/inactive players for town to work through. So for forumite and prp go for those easy lynches of lurkers (their cases against SS and Nipple mainly talk about how they're not contributing much and thus they're scum) and don't actually write any real cases against active people. Notice how prp immediately stopped going after my team. And when they finally do vote for an active team, they says "we're going to sleep/can't post anymore today, we vote for them cause we agree with GM" which not only is an example of them trying to sheep a vote but it's also an example of them having to no longer defend their vote since they're off "sleeping"/"Not being here" This is the last post I'll mention for now, since I've covered everything else already in both my previous posts and this one. In this post, chaoser says that, since it's so active, he "very much doubts" that mafia will be lurking. This indirectly pushed suspicion off teams like team nipple, team SS, team Switzerland, and to some extent, team S&G, none of whom at the time had been very active at the time. We now know team Switzerland was town, and teams nipple, SS, and S&G have still not been very active. Townies should not be excluding possibilities so easily. We cannot simply make ill-reasoned generalizations (again, chaoser, here's your own shitty logic) and ignore activity patterns that could net us scum. Indeed, this post seemed to come across with an agenda, since usually only scum will be interested in letting lurkers slide. Conclusions I might be heavily biased, and I accept that, but upon reevaluation I still think chaoser's team is the best lynch today. There is still the possibility that chaoser is town, and in that case it would obviously would be incredibly detrimental to waste more time arguing and potentially risk destroying the thread and letting mafia simply choose one of us to lynch. So, as I went back and reread again I became rather suspicious of both team nipple and team SS as well, and I think they would make good alternates. Nipple has literally done nothing while sandro has been rather difficult to read. Decon has not done much of anything either. Sandro has said some things I agree with, but also some things I don't. This is rather weird, as I usually agree with almost everything sandro says (when he is town). He also seems to lack in activity. This isn't a huge tell, particularly as his activity was almost nonexistent in SMG, but it certainly is weird because he is definitely here; he has posted several times. I am in agreement with him, for example, that team nipple would make a good lynch today. I didn't really like his no-lynch plan yesterday, and I didn't like some of the other things he said yesterday, either. In this situation we just need to obtain more information on these teams. I want everyone to post their opinions and their top two lynches for today. If we can agree on at least two choices then that would be some good progress for the day. GM what are your thoughts? Hey everyone! I just wanted to re-post this case, because it seems like everyone has forgotten about chaoser and is worrying about sandroba/wbg instead! The reason I bring this up is because this feels exacly like my case on wiggles in Cosmic Horror mafia, where I decided to "stop arguing about it" and suddenly and mysteriously the case disappeared into the ether, ignored by everyone, because it was convenient for the mafia. | ||
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On November 07 2011 22:21 Palmar wrote: With 7 teams alive it takes 4 votes to achieve a lynch. The deadline is 22:00 GMT (+00:00) tonight, or about 10 hours from this post. Any teams not voting by the deadline will be modkilled, with 2 people per team there is no excuse for missing a vote. What happens if a majority is reached before a team has a chance to vote? This being majority lynch the day would immediately end with them having not voted, in that case, would they be modkilled? | ||
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On November 07 2011 22:41 kitaman27 wrote: My new goal is to make a case against GMarshal by only using pieces of his analysis against myself. Ah, yes, the difference between a joke and am actual accusation. I *always* call rad scum when he is alive day 2, its hilarious. Call it casting suspicion if you want, maybe I should have included a :-P to make it more clear. On November 07 2011 22:42 supersoft wrote: @GM go through the last pages of the thread. »grey and I havent been doing much?« i bet you read my post where i mention you as my #3 lynchcandidate. i expect some more omgus towards us to be incoming... I saw it, what I haven't been seeing you actually pushing your ideas very hard. You sort of post them and then waft off, which is why I am asking for your opinions. Also you are obviously scum for saying you want to lynch me!! :-P (there is your OMGUS, happy?) | ||
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On November 08 2011 01:07 GreYMisT wrote: I have some brief time before I have to go to classes this morning, but basically, because I dont believe in using WIFOM as a basis for an argument, I dont think that WBG/Radfield are scum atm. I had a dream last night that you fell into a volcano to prove your townieness, but then died and flipped scum theif, but again I'm not sure if thats basis for real analysis. As I stated a bit ago, i'm willing to vote for SS or Nipple. Nipple might not be the best idea anymore, so when supersoft arrives, We might switch over to SS. Gm, you said you dont think a good reason to call wbg and radfield scum is that they are still alive. Do you have any thoughts regarding them? I think wbg is very active and rads scum play isn't lurk and be inactive, as is evidenced by LotR, wbg is all over the place, but this fits his town meta pretty well, I'm leaning town heavily on them right now | ||
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On November 08 2011 01:29 kitaman27 wrote: For being a team who has been a main lynch candidate on day one and day two, votes sure have been having real trouble sticking to Team Edward. Kurumi if you could post your opinion on SS and Edward then we might be willing to save you for day three, but it needs to be soon if possible. GM, you based your lynch on me on the fact that I was defending townies on day one, which is exactly what you are doing now. You still haven't provided a strong opinion on scum suspects since the case on Red and I. Could you share who you are voting for before seeing who Team Red21 and Team S&G CONSULTING truely seek to lynch? I have no fucking idea who to kill right now, as I said I *really* don't want team nipple with me on day 3/lylo, but I'd hate to lynch town again, the thing is, we have no way figuring out their alignment from their actions so far. *sigh*, kita my case was built on you not playing to your usual meta, and ascribing the differences to scum motives, not for any "tells" like defending townies. I said "publishing town lists is bad" not "defending townies is bad" two very different things, one is pro town, the other one looks like a contribution without actually contributing. As to who I want to lynch, I'm not sure, I haven't had the time I wanted to go back and read into people. I thought day 1 that SS was town, but their complete lack of contribution and the fact that sandroba is being stupid (in my opinion) and getting super aggravated has made me rethink that. I might be ok with lynching them. If not, team Edward is ok as a lynch, since they just narrowly avoided it day 1, and as I said, I feel like chaoser's defensiveness and general annoyed attitude are the kind of play he might do while emulating Ace. But then he voted for SS, and I don't know what to make of that. I'm ok with either edward or SS, but I'm feeling kind of sick, so I'm not exactly thinking straight either -__- I'll try to settle on one or the other in the next few hours, but I'd love to hear any arguments towards one or the other. | ||
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On November 08 2011 01:53 kitaman27 wrote: How does 2:00pm EST sound? I'm still at work then. I'll get back when I get back. Sorry that I can't give you a specific time. Yes, I did have a town feel for SS day 1, I stated that. I've since revised my opinion. You know, as the game evolves we reassess our assumptions, its how we catch scum. It would be silly to decide someone is town day 1 and refuse to consider any further evidence. Anyway, there is a difference between calling someone town for the sake of calling them town (what you were doing) and calling someone town when someone asks you if you think they are scum. I know I said sandroba was town day one, but then I went back and read the thread again. What most makes me suspicious of sandroba is his pissed off attitude, townroba doesn't get that pissed off, his rant against wbg in particular, which boils down to a paragraph of him calling bug stupid is what made me reconsider the whole deal. What makes me suspicious of the chaoser case is how it seems to keep getting shunted aside, when I think there are valid points there. If I had to commit right now, I think I would take SS over Edward. | ||
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Now, I have a post-weekend report I need to write for my boss, so I'm going to be away for at least two hours. I will try to be back before the lynch, but no guarantees. I'm leaving my vote on SS, if crofty shows up he is free to move it around, as I trust his judgment. This puts SS at L-1 so please, for the love of god, no one hammer until the deadline is really close, I think kita has a case he wants to present or something, so wait until you hear that. ##Vote: Team SS | ||
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I suppose its too much to ask that crofty carry the team for the next 24 hours? Probably, oh well Claiming medic now, protecting kita tonight. Kita, if your check from n1 isn't dead, check me, otherwise check someone you think is likely to be scum. This is probably a terrible decision I will regret in the morning, but hell I'm literally hallucinating with fever! I slipped it a little earlier here when attacking kurumi's plan. Specifically: On November 04 2011 02:43 GMarshal wrote: Its perfectly possible that we don't, like say maybe we have a medic and that's it. Now I'm going to collapse back into a feverish delirium, but if kitas check goes through, worst case we have 2 confirmed town, which means that even by rng there is a 66% chance of hitting scum. GL HF GG, I'll try to post my thoughts in more detail before I get shot. | ||
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On November 09 2011 01:22 chaoser wrote: Also Gm fucked up his claim, it's DOCTOR, not MEDIC Sure thing scum. Its easy, whichever of us is alive in the morning is mafia. My question to you is why would you counter claim now, at night, rather than wait to see if I'm alive in the morning? Ooops ^_^ | ||
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On November 09 2011 01:26 chaoser wrote: Got antsy with the trigger finger. And my breadcrumbs, unless you're saying in the few minutes between GM's claim and my claim that I was somehow able to find and make up four different breadcrumbs based on three different TV shows involving doctors (E.R, scrubs, Doogie Howser), I'm the real doctor and he's the fake. He even messed up his claim, claiming medic when it's doctor. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Parity Cop, Doctor. Fever, I didn't even confirm it with my role PM. Now why would you ever counterclaim NOW if town? Clearly you are scum. Also why would I claim medic as scum, NOW? so that people lynch me when I'm not dead in the morning? Especially with bugs giving me such a nice way out with his post about how the medic shouldn't claim? My claim makes sense, your counter claim makes none. | ||
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On November 09 2011 01:29 chaoser wrote: My guess? You're fucked and now can neither kill me nor can you kill yourself. If I really WAS mafia I would have just shot you, there's no REASON for me to counter claim at night if I was mafia. Which is why I did it =] Or, you could have waited till morning pointed out how the medic was still alive you are the medic and I should die. or get shot and expose me as a liar. Instead you "counterclaim"? I think this is scum that is uncomfortable with the idea of a 66% chance of losing a member tomorrow ^_^ | ||
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On November 09 2011 01:35 chaoser wrote: Here's why you'd claim "medic" now as scum. You get kita/red to check you and then not die and give the excuse that mafia didn't want to kill you so that kita/red can't confirm their check. That's the main reason. There's other reasons like trying to see people's reactions and such but the main one is the one I just listed. Now, why would I, if I was scum, counter claim you at night? Counter claiming at night at this point is more advantageous to town than it is to mafia. Mafia now will either decide to shoot me and when I flip, out you. Or they can decide NOT to shoot me in which case It becomes a me v you lynch tomorrow which I am sure I'll win due to your mistake about your role and also my superior breadcrumbs. I repeat, why the hell would I claim medic as scum? When there is a pretty decent chance that there is a second blue to counter claim? Imagine this, I claim medic, then the mafia doesn't shoot me, they instead shoot, say RoL, RoL flips jailkeeper. Then I'm fucked, anally. Or this happens, except during the day. There are two possibilities, either you are scum trying to counterclaim or a townie trying to save my ass. Either way its horrible play and probably going to get you lynched when I get shot. | ||
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On November 09 2011 01:43 chaoser wrote: What happened to that fever and being hardly able to even string coherent sentences together? Thought you were going to collapse? I'm 100% doctor and GM is 100% lying. There's NO reason for mafia to COUNTER CLAIM AT NIGHT. If I was mafia, I'd not shoot you and COUNTER CLAIM IN THE MORNING. You asked me why you would claim "medic" as scum at night and yet you can't even answer why I would counterclaim at night if I was scum. The answer? There's no advantage at this point for mafia to counterclaim at night. At all. Come on, list some reasons for why mafia would want to counter claim at night compared to counterclaiming in the morning. I don't even care if it's WIFOM. Just give me some. I'm still hardly able to write coherent sentences. If you were scum you'd still shoot me at night and not bother with a counter claim at all. My brain is fuzzy right now, because you are right, you are making no sense. I'm the medic, I know this for a fact, there is no possible way you can be, yet you seem determined to insist that you are?! When I get shot and flip blue you are going to have to explain yourself to an angry lynch mob and that makes no sense to me from a scum perspective. Then again, you always did like fakeclaiming, maybe this is some insane townie play to get the mafia to shoot you instead, and when you flip green win the game or something. I don't even know. | ||
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On November 09 2011 01:52 chaoser wrote: If I was actually mafia and a doctor claimed at night I would: Choice 1) Don't say shit, shoot you and then see kita's checks. Then argue it there. Choice 2) Don't say shit, let Kita/Red check you and kill someone else. Then counter claim in the morning saying I'm actually the doctor. At least I had have two choices that aren't connected But now that I've counterclaimed, the first choice would be fucked if I was mafia since by killing you I'd have killed myself (via lynch). So the only way I can go about it is to argue. Why, as mafia, would I decide to close my own choices and restrict myself? Also, if I counterclaim now you probably won't kill me since when I flip, you'd be fucked as a fake claim. So I get to live to protect another day. I'm done arguing with you, its a waste of time, I'm assuming you are some kind of insane VT or scum at this point. When I die you are fucked, if I don't die, well then we'll lynch you and mafia will be fucked ^_^ If you die you will either flip red or green, proving I am the medic. Its win win for me! | ||
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On November 09 2011 02:32 chaoser wrote: LOL. WBG/Rad + GM/Crofty as scum. Calling it. So you're saying I'm mafia when not only do I have way more planned out breadcrumbs but also GM misclaimed his role as medic instead of doctor? That's a surefire lynch in any other game WBG. You of all people should have picked up on that. Role that protects people at night. Name is irrelevant. I've checked my role PM all of once, and that was to see, "hey cool, I get to protect people" I really hope you are a suicidal townie and not scum, I respect your scum play too much to think you would random counterclaim like this. | ||
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IN no scenario does it make sense for me to claim medic, at night, as scum, because in the best case scenario something like this happens. However as town it means I get to 1.) Save the real medic if he exists 2.) Give the DT a check, either by having him check me and dying or by letting him live and check someone else. In the scenario in which no other blue exist, I gave the dt basically a free check into a pool of 3 players. In a scenario in which a medic exists, the game becomes unwinnable for mafia, unless the medic counterclaims at night. Which chaoser did. If you examine the motivation behind the claim, there is no logic to it as scum, none. There is no reason I would risk a counterclaim like that or you know, a blue dying at night or CALLING FOR THE DT TO CHECK ME, if I were scum and not in a mental asylum. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:33 kitaman27 wrote: GM. Who should we lynch today? at this point I'm going to say wbg. He was very carefully giggling to himself and trying to set up the GM/chaoser dichotomy this morning. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:36 wherebugsgo wrote: Didn't take a clairvoyant to see this load of shit coming. Tell me, if you're town fake claiming, why did scum shoot chaoser and not you? You claimed first, if you're both town then you are the one who should've died. Then tell us in what situation a town fake claim helps town? One mislynch and the game is over. Your fakeclaim has created so much WIFOM it's still unknown who the last scumteam is. In other words, it's an excellent gamble to out the medic (if there is one) and ensure the PC dies before the last crucial day when your scumbuddy can simply ride the bus to victory. Yeah, right, keep twisting things. Lets see how this helps town, shall we? Assume a doctor exists. He does not counterclaim at night, I get shot you have 1 dt check that went off 1 dt = 2 confirmed townies if the medic claims and can prove it through crumbs you either have 3 confirmed townies or 2 confirmed townies and a red check. Next night mafia has to shoot doc + 1 dt check into a pool of 2 player, its gg even if a medic *doesn't* exist as long as the other blue doesn't conterclaim/exist I'm still buying a dt check into a pool of 4 players with my life. 50% chance of hitting scum. Basically as long as the blue waited to counterclaim (which any sensible blue would do) I was buying us *at least* a free dt check, an instant victory if a medic existed and did not counterclaim. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:43 wherebugsgo wrote: Everything after this line: Matters for shit because 1. Chaoser counterclaimed and 2. You're still alive. The rest of your post is basically a jab at chaoser for counterclaiming you because it outed you as scum, and then total ignorance as to how a parity cop would work. A parity cop doesn't give you scum or town unless you get very specific checks off. It just gives you parity, and quite frankly we don't know what kind of information the PC has. Nice WIFOM, GM, nice WIFOM. I did not expect the medic to go full retard. Sorry, but any sane medic would have waited till morning, you know so he could get the protect off? Also parity cop gives you parity! Yes, very good! Which means that once you have a dead check you are as good as a regular cop! Explain to me how my actions make more sense as scum than as town? You can't because my move makes NO sense as scum. With a solid counterclaim come day I'm dead because I didn't get shot! Why would I ever run that risk, when there is a 2/3 chance of another blue and if I *don't* die theres a pretty large chance I'll get lynched for it. You are stretching trying to get the mislynch off, because you expected a quick hammer. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:47 GreYMisT wrote: The problem is that nothing apparently went according to plan. Instead of talking about what should have been, let's talk about what is happening now. You should understand the depth of a hole you are in. You think WBG is scum. Who is the other? Kita? Me? Kurumi? It not kita, I'm pretty sure, or the game is already fucked, and I have literally nothing to go on on RoL and Kurumi. My brain feels fuzzy and I ache all over. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:51 wherebugsgo wrote: Also if I was scum I wouldn't shoot chaoser. That's incredibly dumb when I wanted to lynch him all game long. GM you fucking hosted the only game in which I was scum. You remember Nisani? We kept pushing each other all game long and we left him alive, choosing to shoot others instead. Why on earth would I shoot someone I think I can lynch? If I were scum and you and chaoser were both town I would've shot the third townie (nipple or S&G, whichever one of them is town) and then let the lynch fall between you and chaoser. Chaoser would've pushed you and all I would've needed is my scumbuddy to bandwagon with me, game over. Why as scum would I put myself in this position, where I have to fight with you about all of this WIFOM? God your argument is terrible. you had to shoot him or me. If you shot me and I flipped green then gg, you lose, because chaoser would be confirmed, and kita would have gotten off a check, and you had no way of preventing a check the following night. So you either made the correct guess or more likely your rolecop had checked one of me or chaoser, and you seized the chance. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:50 redFF wrote: gm why didnt you tell us this at night. Because if I did it would invalidate the ENTIRE POINT of claiming doctor, I could still conceivably win the game for town, as long as the mafia shot me, and not chaoser, which is why I insisted that he had to be an insane vanilla townie and pointed out how much he liked to fakeclaim. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:51 redFF wrote: also gm we didnt even know there was a doctor, so you could be scum trying to get an easy mislynch by claiming doc Lets see, there was a 2/3 chance of another blue, those are some pretty steep odds to gamble on. Also if I claimed doc and did not die at night, I'm pretty sure that I would be lynched. At the very best it would be a retarded move as scum. | ||
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On November 09 2011 09:57 wherebugsgo wrote: You act as if you have no concept of a scum gamble. Scum gambles, kills the medic, your scumbuddy busses you, and then town is in a tough spot when the DT dies and they have 0 information to go on the last day. It's basically a coinflip for both the townies in that situation. Once again, why would I shoot you or chaoser when I could shoot nipple/S&G? Scum only need one mislynch today. If you and chaoser were both town, I could shoot that other townie and then sheep chaoser to victory. He even repeatedly said that he would insta-vote you. Your logic is terrible and you know it. You need to die. How the fuck do I know who the medic is if he sensibly waits till morning to counterclaim? this would be a retarded gamble Right, you could have, except if you fail to get the mislynch, by say kita having a red check, then you automatically lose, as I've said. You HAD to shoot one of me and chaoser to avoid that. | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:02 redFF wrote: but gm didnt your perspective change when you were counterclaimed? Surely you knew that you would be lynched 100% once you were counterclaimed. gm you really fucked this up goddamnit lol It did, but if I could persuade the mafia to hit me, we would win anyway, which meant I had to keep up the pretense of being the medic till the day post. If I got shot then scum could no longer win the game. If anyone else got shot and I could get chaoser to follow my reasoning or you and kita had a successful red check, the game was also basically won. | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:03 redFF wrote: you could have just sacrificed yourself as scum to find out who the medic is. you probably figured that we had a red check on you and you were dead anyway. That possibility is something I had not considered. However even if that's the case it would be a stupid gamble, because it has me making 100% sure you check me. I think as scum I would have rather argued the legitimacy of your claim. Also you need to consider that if the medic/other blue waited till morning, and you went ahead and claimed your check at the day change there is no guarantee that I would even get a medic out of the deal. Basically it would be utterly retarded too, although more plausible | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:06 redFF wrote: i call bs. you were so obviously not the doctor it was hilarious. you would've seen that. That was my reasoning, there was no point to backtracking in the middle of the night, it took even the slim chance of me doing any good away. | ||
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cool off people. This is a game. Played on a forum. No need to make it personal. With that said I apologize for any insults I may have tossed around. | ||
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Because I would totally do that as scum and then shoot chaoser. Totally. I also enjoy claiming godfather day 1. Anyway, I'm done explaining myself unless people have specific questions, it should be pretty clear how my actions could pretty much only come from a town viewpoint, unless you are accusing me of playing scum as well as I play a banjo with my feet. | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:29 GreYMisT wrote: Could you answer this please? it got lost in the potatoes post. I think they are plotting something with the info they have. Letting it play out. Its not a bad way to use it, I can't wait to see what trap they spring, because at this point its pretty much the only chance we have to pull out of this mess which I have managed to make | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:34 GreYMisT wrote: Who do you think the second scum is btw? I assume you think the first is WBG. Its a coinflip between you and RoL/Kurmi, thanks to their incredible lurking. | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:41 redFF wrote: here were the options for gm scum Shoot into the townies in wbg/kurumi/super/chaoser (one of them being his scumbuddies) this would have been bad for a few reasons. First, it limits the number of scummy people at lylo, secondly it leaves the medic(if there is one) and parity cop and gives the parity cop another check(if there is a medic) try and out the medic/claim medic and not be counterclaimed if there is a medic, then parity cop had at least 2 more checks and scum was in a spot of bother! by claiming medic, gm could have a) outed the medic, letting him shoot a blue, leaving him free to kill the cop tomorrow and hope his buddy wins in 3p lylo b) not been counterclaimed. If he hadn't been counterclaimed, i bet that GM would have shot me and kita, he then would have made up some shit in the thread about trying to OUTWIFOM scum by protecting a townie. this would have secured an easy win. had gm not claimed medic as scum, he would have either shot us and missed, or shot a random townie with a small chance of hitting medic/jailkeeper. this would have left both us and the medic alive, given the parity cop a 3rd check. 3 checks in a game this size on a parity cop is really bad for scum. so yeah i think GM is scum. the optimal move for gm was to shoot chaoser, the optimal move for anyone was to shoot the medic. that said, why would town gm claim medic. To draw a hit? What reason did gm have to think there wasnt another blue? GM would know that scum would not risk a no kill to kill a parity cop. GM would know that scum knew a parity cop with 2 checks is not that dangerous, not enough to risk a blocked shot. If gm was town, why would he have argued with the obviously town chaoser instead of just saying he was trying to draw a hit? he would've known it was town vs town and that if he kept this up we would almost certainly lose the game. tldr gm is scum dont vote tho please I've already explained how my actions, if not counterclaimed meant an instant victory for town if a medic existed, and gave at least 50% odds of hitting scum anyway. Cop is the strongest role in small setups, parity cop is just a one day delayed cop, totally worth the life of a townie in exchange for more confirmed town. | ||
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On November 09 2011 10:48 redFF wrote: GODDAMNIT GM WHY FAKECLAIM AS TOWN THE NIGHT BEFORE LYLO JESUS CHRIST Because I thought it had a decent chance of winning the game for the town. | ||
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On November 09 2011 11:19 redFF wrote: HOW HOW HOW I already explained this! Doc exists and doesn't counterclaim till morning, mafia shoots me, they lose, 1/3 possibility of this happening. Jailkeeper exists and dosn't counterclaim till morning, mafia shoots me. Town is in a decent positon with one dt check (either guaranteed mafia or one free townie), jailkeeper claims, 2 confirmed townies, and either one free scum or a third confirmed townie, gg, town wins. No other blue exists, I die, flip green, mafia still has to wifom about shooting dt the next night, DT still got a check of in a pool of 4 players, 2 of which are scum, at worst chances of hitting scum are 2/3. if that is the case there will be a confirmed townie going into day 4, making town have a 50% chance of victory with no analysis. As long as no one counterclaimed me all would be fine, and at worst I made our chances of winning at least 50%, much higher if a second blue did exist. | ||
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As far as the situation goes, thanks to the red21 check, we know that 1 of wbg/supersoft is scum. Tempted to say wbg is the scum of the two, however thanks to that check I know 100% certainty that nipples has to be scum. However I'm the only person that is convinced of that, I think, so for today I guess we'll have to choose between supersoft/wbg | ||
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On November 10 2011 06:11 redFF wrote: great since everyone is here. gm, chez or s&g? If I had to make the decision right now? Chez. | ||
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On November 10 2011 06:13 GreYMisT wrote: The Vote is going to ultimately come down to you team red21 Barring any sudden changes in opinion this is what we have thus far: me and WBG are going to vote against each other, Kurumi has already said he thinks I'm scum, and GM said that he thinks WBG is scum. Thats 2v2, leaving you as the tiebreaker. I'm going to vote for the opposite of whatever kurumi's team votes, because I know them to be scum. I'm town, there is one scum between chez/S&g last scum has to be nipple. | ||
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how so? | ||
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So yeah, right now I'm leaning wbg/rad as the scumteam. | ||
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On November 10 2011 06:19 wherebugsgo wrote: The simple fact that you said your check could be fake has allowed GM and S&G to muddy the waters. Deliberate and harmful lie! At no point did I accuse kita of lying about the check or anything of the sort! | ||
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On November 10 2011 06:21 redFF wrote: Yeah I realized my logic there was stupid, I'm probably voting for wbg unless you and kita have some major swaying evidence in the opposite direction. we know, but there's still the question of tommorow. we're scumhunting. Gm an answer if you please. If kurumi is scum he could just not vote and by your logic we would nolynch and lose. | ||
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On November 10 2011 06:28 wherebugsgo wrote: I cannot believe this. I'm glad you guys think I'm so good, that I would be capable of leading town astray for 3 days straight by myself, with 3 afk scumbuddies. Good god. You did it in pony mafia. | ||
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On November 10 2011 06:32 redFF wrote: oh fuck chill, I'm town, you are town. We got this. Nipple is the last scum | ||
GMarshal
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Playing mafia when words are dancing on your screen is a lot harder than it sounds. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 10 2011 06:52 redFF wrote: also supersoft i know you're gonna waltz into the thread and tell us how amazing you are that you found the scum but honestly that was the worst town play i've ever seen and i've seen some pretty bad stuff. I think I get the award for that. I really thought it might win us the game at the time. Lesson learned, when you are practically hallucinating, your "brilliant plan" is probably not so brilliant. It *could* have worked though! | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 10 2011 07:04 wherebugsgo wrote: This is the situation we faced this game: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Follow_the_Cop it's really only breakable with a roleblocker. I wouldn't call the setup imbalanced if I hadn't experienced it myself (I'm not blaming anyone, I don't blame Palmar, I'm just saying that in the future this needs to be changed) IMO mafia should never be punished for forcing a roleclaim. People claiming and then loling to victory is just crazy stupid IMO. This game is about analysis, not dumb luck. That is why I argued for either a roleblocker/framer or a miller in the pregame, DT is just too powerful without it, especially if there is a high probability of protection roles being present. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 10 2011 08:09 Palmar wrote: btw, just to give insight, what's considered the problem with this setup on mafiascum, is the fact that once only 1 scum is left, he can basically jail the other scum and act as a backup cop, because over there they get told they save a life or something. That's why no one gets notified of anything this game. Edit: and remember on mafiascum, the cop is normal, so they can easily find a guilty on n1 and n2, thus just ending the game, and even then mafia is winning about half of the time They actually are not notifed, but that was a potential problem in this game too. Imagine chaoser as a jailkeeper, and kita surviving to day 3. Jailkeeper claims. We lynch scum of off kitas check jailkeeper roleblocks one of the remaining players, dt checks the other. if anyone dies the person who was rbed is confirmed town. If no one dies, lynch off of the dt check. And mafiascum towns suck, terribly. Reading over their games made my eyes almost literally bleed, apparently not answering the question "what is your favorite movie" is grounds for being lynched. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 10 2011 08:24 Palmar wrote: yes, that was my initial reason for nerfing cop -> parity cop I am more than willing to change the 2of4 if we intend to use it again on TL. It's not about me defending the setup, it's me having a problem with people who blame the game (lol @ fucking zerg whiners on TL) instead of blaming themselves, even if the odds are slightly against them, that's what I consider a challenge. Can someone suggest a modification to the 2of4 setup that would make it more balanced. I ran this version on another site: 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Doctor. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Veteran. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Veteran. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Doctor. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Cop. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Veteran. It replaces rolecop with roleblocker, and removes jailor/vanilla and adds vigilante and veteran Honestly, on tl I see two blues in a 9 player setup as too much. The proportion I've found works well is 1 blue for every two mafia. Cop is really strong in small setups, and the vigi is basically a free confirmed townie for the town. The "easiest" fix for stopping follow the cop would be to either make 1 vt a miller or replace the somewhat useless rolecop with a framer. Or a roleblocker, and just have the scum rb resolve before the jailkeeper roleblock, I never saw how that was an issue at all tbh. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 10 2011 08:32 wherebugsgo wrote: EDIT: Can someone explain why F11 is not balanced? I know very little about these setups except what I know from simply googling them. AFAIK F11 has an issue where if the roleblocker is lynched day 1 the cop and the doc can claim and wind up in a situation where the scum team loses by day 4. Honestly the reason why they changed it on mafiascum is because the town winrate was something like 40% | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
To save us the agony of Ace listing all his manifold achievements, its pretty fucking long, we can now all move on and go play in Zona's steamship game. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 10 2011 13:04 Ace wrote: There are only at best 8 or 9 people that have ever outplayed me or tricked me (extremely rare) in a game on this forum. But me outplaying you won't mean I'll win. I've lost games that are out of my hands due to Mafia being game where other people on my Team have an effect on the game. In some cases it's subjective as to who is "better" at a game of Mafia but me compared to you guys isn't even fair. I'm not even sure you guys are better than me when I first started playing. Basic concepts seem to zing past your heads. Zona asked me for advice on that game too. Guess you won't be playing in it after all lulz. I had no intent of playing in Zona's game. I don't see how you advising would make me not play though ^_^ | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
Thanks. Now, prplhz, if your behavior is getting you lynched, perhaps you should try doing something different? Find what it is that makes people think you are scum, and do something else instead, so, read over the game, and see, "huh, kita though I was scum, because of ______, better not do _____ anymore" Only way to learn from your mistakes is to analyze them. | ||
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