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Team Melee Mini Mafia - Couples Therapy - Page 21

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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prplhz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark8045 Posts
November 04 2011 15:03 GMT
#401
I like GMarshal's post. I'm leaving in an hour or so, maybe kitaman27 or redFF can conjure up something before that.
http://i.imgur.com/M7t7egx.png
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
November 04 2011 15:15 GMT
#402
hmm these 1 big fat accusationpost out of the nowhere always seem strange to me. I prefer the dialogues over these walls of text. That's why i struggeled to vote Team SS, although iGroks points points seemed reasonable to me, i was a little bit suspicious because of the sudden appearance of this wall of text.
Same thing with GM...
Forumite
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden3280 Posts
November 04 2011 15:21 GMT
#403
GM makes a good case. Nipple hurt town by not posting, and I can´t get over that, I think they need equal attention, but I´m fine with supporting a Red21 lynch, just as long as we return to Nipple if nothing happens there.
:3
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
November 04 2011 15:24 GMT
#404
On November 05 2011 00:15 supersoft wrote:
hmm these 1 big fat accusationpost out of the nowhere always seem strange to me. I prefer the dialogues over these walls of text. That's why i struggeled to vote Team SS, although iGroks points points seemed reasonable to me, i was a little bit suspicious because of the sudden appearance of this wall of text.
Same thing with GM...

This post does not compute.

I've read it three times, and I still don't get it. What is wrong with long analysis? Isn't that how you play mafia?

Are you saying you disagree with my analysis? If so, why? If not why hasn't your vote moved yet?
Moderator
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
November 04 2011 15:30 GMT
#405
First off, remove the pictures, flavor fluff, and irrelevent references to old games and that post would be much easier to read.

On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2011 09:19 kitaman27 wrote:
Also, we've all read our role pms. New discussion topic please.

This is a wonderful post on two fronts: it seems pro-town as it looks to move away from a terrible topic of discussion, but doesn't offer an alternative. If kita wasn't on your radar yet, this post should have put him on there. Notice how he also doesn't come up with an opinion on the person proposing the plan, or propose another topic of discussion, he simply says "move on". This is a post that contributes without contributing, it shoots down a terrible plan, yes, but it does so with out adding anything to the discussion, or telling us anything about kita or those proposing the plan.


On the contrary I'm trying to prevent "contributing without contributing". People were discussing an irrelevant plan that was impossible to carry out at this point in the game and I didn't like where discussion was headed. I'm not trying to label that as a "contribution". If you really want to look at a "contributing without contributing" post, just look at your reaper post that you started the game off with.

On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
And then we reach the real gem, the post I was just *waiting* for, a post taking a null tell and spinning it to kita's advantage. The post in question is quoted below
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 03:44 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 04 2011 02:43 GMarshal wrote:
Truly this is a Kurumi plan.


On November 04 2011 02:43 GMarshal wrote:
your suggestion of no-lynching to "prolong the game" is retarded.


On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
I can understand Kurumi pushing this anti-town idiocy


Since when does town GM bully people around like this?

There are several things of note in this post, first is the fact that this fits kita's scum meta perfectly, he is going for the "low hanging fruit", finding something that is not in any way an indicator of alignment and spinning it as such. This is *exactly* what happened when kita "caught" redtooth lying about having smurfed in other mafia games in the past, he took a completely irrelevant piece of data and tried to spin it in such a way as to discredit and throw suspicion on a townie. Furthermore there is the lack of an actual case being built around this, if kita thinks I am scum (and this post seems to indicate that), why isn't he pushing for my lynch? Possibly because its not an easy lynch?


You were mocking kurumi and calling his ideas retarded and idiotic. I didn't like that. Don't try to warp this as a scum agenda.

On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Also interesting is that he takes the least controversial position, supporting lynching, and only after two other people have decided to support it. Certainly not hogging the spotlight, that's for sure.


Huh? I supported lynch because that was the correct decision. I saw a plan I didn't like and I argued against it. I'm not sure what you mean about only after two other people have decided to support it. I'm posting at the same time you are, not that its relavent. The math was setup discussion. I'm not claiming it as a sign that I'm town, I'm just sharing my opinion.


On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Dear god, this post. Lets he calls out lurkers, and posts that he thinks that 6/8 other people might be scum. Wow, what a wonderful contribution! How *useful*, especially when it includes such brilliant justifications. This is essentially kita publishing a list of two town reads, for no real reason, and lo and behold! Its another long, worthless post, that doesn't directly accuse anyone of being scum! It doesn't even point out why any of those might be scum. No townie with his head screwed on straight would post this. Kita is experienced enough to know that this is a terrible post, and I cannot ascribe any town motivation to writing it. Its a clear and blatant attempt at contributing without contributing.


You're the third person to attempt to twist my post as scummy. We need to consolidate the lynch. I posted which teams I would be unwilling to vote for based upon my town reads. I'm confident that the 2 scum teams are within the 6 teams I listed. That was 24 hours into the game. You know well enough that day one is about searching for town. I'm sharing my opinion and attempting to push the lynch away from those I see in a good light.

On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Kitaman is scum, becuse he fails toreally contribute, instead hiding behind apparent contributions, this lines up with his scum meta. Kita is simply failing to push his usual town objectives and actively hunt scum, and is instead fostering suspicion and being unhelpful


Here is what I've done so far:
-The very first thing I did was random vote the newbie in an attempt to generate discussion and gauge a reaction.
-I respond to you accusation of team viking that they are deliberately derailing town. You respond "look at their filter" and I continue to press you to provide a valid reason, which you ultimately drop.
-I argue against the "no-lynch plan" because it doesn't benefit town. I argue against the "follow the blue" plan because it doesn't benefit town.
-I push several players who promise to contribute later on to share their ideas.
-I develop two town reads and share that I'm not willing to lynch them

I'm at work at the moment, but during lunch I'll take another read of the thread. prp/forumite, what exactly is "good" about GM's case?
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
November 04 2011 15:32 GMT
#406
what i wanted to say is: i have to control everything you say in your big post very carefully.
i dont autoagree with someone who posts huge texts and awesomepictures.
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
November 04 2011 15:33 GMT
#407
Guys, apologies for such inactivity!
My appreciations GMarshal, I am almost sure You are town. Big analysis is something You need to work on for a quite bit of time. Scum GMarsh is more about policies, discussing more things way more vague etc. Crofty is quite silent but.. He will get his "engine" going, won't he?
Anyway, let me read the thread.. There is only one thing I remember which budged me:
iGrok, I understand You might dislike me for the Mafia You were Godfather in, but please, what's the point in writing
"I am always up for lynching Kurumi"
It rubs me wrong way, totally...
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
November 04 2011 15:37 GMT
#408
@gm, what do you think of the sandro case? i think it's still good, sevs replacement doesnt change anything there. he was irrelevant for me...
i need a few minutes to filter kita and red and look up the old games.
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
November 04 2011 15:44 GMT
#409
What are your reads Chaoser, who is scum, who is town, who should we lynch today.


My teammate should be posting our read sometime soon. Like I said before, I'd rather be on as an advisory role.
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
November 04 2011 15:45 GMT
#410
This isn't a coaching game chaoser.
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
November 04 2011 15:49 GMT
#411
On November 05 2011 00:45 kitaman27 wrote:
This isn't a coaching game chaoser.


Where does it say that it's not?

I will play the way I want to play

On November 02 2011 02:05 Palmar wrote:
Combination, I'll probably RNG it, but maybe break up these two types of teams.

a) 2 very strong vets together (like 2 best players in the game in a team).

This opens up a very nasty "you should be dead so you're scum" can of worms, I don't want people trying to use that kind of arguments. If you're town you get either shot by mafia or no one trusts you because you didn't get shot, or if you're scum you'll get hanged eventually just because you're not dead, especially if a doc flips.

b) 2 very new players together

Mostly because the best way to integrate people into our community is to have them interact with older members!


But take note:

I won't balance the setup, only the teams. What teams end up as what role will be completely left to RNG.


If anything that post suggests that coaching IS a big part of this game.
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
November 04 2011 15:49 GMT
#412
Wow kita, you completely fail to address the majority of my points, while focusing on the nitpicking, great job!

No, I'm keeping the pictures, because I like them. I also like the fluff, if it bothers you, deal with it. The references to the old games are providing a contrast and a meta to compare you with, you know, so people have something to weigh your actions against?

Addressing your "defense" in nice bold blue text


On November 05 2011 00:30 kitaman27 wrote:
First off, remove the pictures, flavor fluff, and irrelevent references to old games and that post would be much easier to read.

Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
On November 03 2011 09:19 kitaman27 wrote:
Also, we've all read our role pms. New discussion topic please.

This is a wonderful post on two fronts: it seems pro-town as it looks to move away from a terrible topic of discussion, but doesn't offer an alternative. If kita wasn't on your radar yet, this post should have put him on there. Notice how he also doesn't come up with an opinion on the person proposing the plan, or propose another topic of discussion, he simply says "move on". This is a post that contributes without contributing, it shoots down a terrible plan, yes, but it does so with out adding anything to the discussion, or telling us anything about kita or those proposing the plan.


On the contrary I'm trying to prevent "contributing without contributing". People were discussing an irrelevant plan that was impossible to carry out at this point in the game and I didn't like where discussion was headed. I'm not trying to label that as a "contribution". If you really want to look at a "contributing without contributing" post, just look at your reaper post that you started the game off with.

Yet you didn't offer another outlet for discussion, which is what I take issue with. Town kita would have given something else to work with, if just an accusation or a push against a player, you just said "lol, no" and left it at that, "lol, no, but...." is pro-town, "lol no." is anti-town. Don't muddle the issue.

Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
And then we reach the real gem, the post I was just *waiting* for, a post taking a null tell and spinning it to kita's advantage. The post in question is quoted below
On November 04 2011 03:44 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 04 2011 02:43 GMarshal wrote:
Truly this is a Kurumi plan.


On November 04 2011 02:43 GMarshal wrote:
your suggestion of no-lynching to "prolong the game" is retarded.


On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
I can understand Kurumi pushing this anti-town idiocy


Since when does town GM bully people around like this?

There are several things of note in this post, first is the fact that this fits kita's scum meta perfectly, he is going for the "low hanging fruit", finding something that is not in any way an indicator of alignment and spinning it as such. This is *exactly* what happened when kita "caught" redtooth lying about having smurfed in other mafia games in the past, he took a completely irrelevant piece of data and tried to spin it in such a way as to discredit and throw suspicion on a townie. Furthermore there is the lack of an actual case being built around this, if kita thinks I am scum (and this post seems to indicate that), why isn't he pushing for my lynch? Possibly because its not an easy lynch?


You were mocking kurumi and calling his ideas retarded and idiotic. I didn't like that. Don't try to warp this as a scum agenda.
No, you made a veiled accusation calling me scum and didn't push on it. You weren't saying "gm, be nice" or anything like that, you were implying that I was scum. Without going out and saying it. That's also not town behavior, if you thought my meta indicated I wouldn't do that as town, you should have elaborated, if you wanted me to back off, you should have said it. Instead you go with a veiled accusation. That's called seeding suspicion.


Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Also interesting is that he takes the least controversial position, supporting lynching, and only after two other people have decided to support it. Certainly not hogging the spotlight, that's for sure.


Huh? I supported lynch because that was the correct decision. I saw a plan I didn't like and I argued against it. I'm not sure what you mean about only after two other people have decided to support it. I'm posting at the same time you are, not that its relavent. The math was setup discussion. I'm not claiming it as a sign that I'm town, I'm just sharing my opinion.
As I said, scum love setup discussion. Its interesting that this is the only place you show a strong opinion

Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Dear god, this post. Lets he calls out lurkers, and posts that he thinks that 6/8 other people might be scum. Wow, what a wonderful contribution! How *useful*, especially when it includes such brilliant justifications. This is essentially kita publishing a list of two town reads, for no real reason, and lo and behold! Its another long, worthless post, that doesn't directly accuse anyone of being scum! It doesn't even point out why any of those might be scum. No townie with his head screwed on straight would post this. Kita is experienced enough to know that this is a terrible post, and I cannot ascribe any town motivation to writing it. Its a clear and blatant attempt at contributing without contributing.


You're the third person to attempt to twist my post as scummy. We need to consolidate the lynch. I posted which teams I would be unwilling to vote for based upon my town reads. I'm confident that the 2 scum teams are within the 6 teams I listed. That was 24 hours into the game. You know well enough that day one is about searching for town. I'm sharing my opinion and attempting to push the lynch away from those I see in a good light.

You know better than this. You never, ever post "I think this guy is town" or even imply it, as that makes them targets, instead you pick your top three scum candidates and push them. even if behind the scenes you are town hunting. You know this, you've played enough games. You were trying to make a filler post, no bones about it.

Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 03:40 GMarshal wrote:
Kitaman is scum, becuse he fails toreally contribute, instead hiding behind apparent contributions, this lines up with his scum meta. Kita is simply failing to push his usual town objectives and actively hunt scum, and is instead fostering suspicion and being unhelpful


Here is what I've done so far:
-The very first thing I did was random vote the newbie in an attempt to generate discussion and gauge a reaction.
Nulltell! Why do you even bother to bring this up?
-I respond to you accusation of team viking that they are deliberately derailing town. You respond "look at their filter" and I continue to press you to provide a valid reason, which you ultimately drop.
nulltell/easy contribution! "pushing" is easy giving opinions is hard
-I argue against the "no-lynch plan" because it doesn't benefit town. I argue against the "follow the blue" plan because it doesn't benefit town.
uhuh, already covered this
-I push several players who promise to contribute later on to share their ideas.
how is this a contribution? Promises are easy to make, watch "I promise to buy you a pony!", see easy! Pushing people is *also* easy
-I develop two town reads and share that I'm not willing to lynch them
bad play, not something I think you would do as town. Town reads are rather... easy to gather as scum, no?

I'm at work at the moment, but during lunch I'll take another read of the thread. prp/forumite, what exactly is "good" about GM's case?


So your contributions boil down to "I haven't contributed anything! Accused anyone of being scum or done anything remotely pro-town! I also ignore all the meta arguments, since I have no defense!" Congratulations, you *still* have to contribute any reads other than your town reads (lol), best of all your defense is incredibly convenient in that it ignores the points you consider inconvenient.

You are scum. Sure as day.
Moderator
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
November 04 2011 15:51 GMT
#413
On November 05 2011 00:37 supersoft wrote:
@gm, what do you think of the sandro case? i think it's still good, sevs replacement doesnt change anything there. he was irrelevant for me...
i need a few minutes to filter kita and red and look up the old games.

I think its ridiculous, scum wouldn't stick their neck out there like sandroba just did, much less in a majority game where an overeger mob is likely to get excited and lightning lynch someone who proposes a plan that looks anti-town. I very much doubt sandroba is scum at this time.
Moderator
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
November 04 2011 15:51 GMT
#414
On November 04 2011 23:21 GMarshal wrote:
As scum however, his behavior is the exact opposite, he sticks to generalities (using clues to scumhunt is bad, lurking is bad, etc), he generally posts a lot of useless spam, that makes him seem active, yet never actually adds anything to discussion. He occasionally defends townies and if pushed will indicate a single target as "scum" with shoddy reasoning.

there are no clues in this game, i haven't talked about lurking once. i haven't defended anyone and i have had scumreads on you and wbg this game, and also team SS (which ill get to)

So basically what we are looking for with redFF are not indications that he is scum, but rather a lack of indications that he is town. That is, if he is not active and helpful then he is almost guaranteed to be scum. That said, lets look at his filter. Anything jump out at you? Any great analytically posts? Any attempts at finding mafia?


RedFF is playing an anti-town spammy style that is entirely unlike his contributory, transparent, spammy, town style. This somewhat matches his scum play, and is a clear indication that he is obviously not a townie, since he doesn't care what happens to the town.


i counter you with PYP interesting, i am in a hydra with ON I think its fairly obvious who is posting what. i was town.

also PTP2

both games im town, both games i post spammy one liners. Contrary to your belief GM, you don't need to post page long walls of bullshit to be town.

NOW HERE'S SOMETHING INTERESTING
On November 04 2011 23:38 deconduo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 10:52 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 04 2011 10:21 deconduo wrote:
Prime scum team, probably worthy of a vote. I want to here what sandroba has to say first though, still haven't gotten in contact with him yet. Won't be able to until tomorrow either as I'm off to bed now.


Oh prime scum team? Funny, you haven't pointed out anything that was actually scummy.

At this point, I believe the scum team is contained in this set of players. Ideally I'd like to be able to narrow it down as more people start to post, but RoL, Kurumi, Crofty, iGrok, and Katzeleute all need to give us more to work with.

1. sandroba & Sevryn Deconduo - TEAM SS
3. Radfield & wherebugsgo - TEAM CHEZINU
4. Kurumi & RebirthOfLeGenD - TEAM NIPPLE
5. Crofty & Gmarshal - TEAM LIQUID
7. chaoser & hyshes - TEAM EDWARD
8. iGrok & Katzeleute - TEAM SWITZERLAND


redFF posting one liners instead of contributing is scummy. You posting one liners and setup fillers without contributing is scummy. You calling out other people to step while doing nothing yourself is scummy. Even this post is another piece of meaningless drivel. Instead of saying 'I think team x and y are town' you try and fluff out the post to make it seem like more content than a one liner. However its still just a one liner.

Vote: Team Red21

GM posts long fos, decon sheeps it with no original thought, decon attempts to start shitty bandwagon on a townie to save his scummy ass from being lynched.

##Unvote
##Vote Team SS
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
November 04 2011 15:52 GMT
#415
as for just saying lol to the nolynch plan. that's because it is the one of the dumbest things i've ever seen brought up in a mafia game and the only way to respond to it is lol.
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
November 04 2011 15:56 GMT
#416
##unvote team SS

I no longer fell this to be the best lynch. After I get home me and super will evaluate your post GMarsh.
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
November 04 2011 15:57 GMT
#417
On November 05 2011 00:51 redFF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 23:21 GMarshal wrote:
As scum however, his behavior is the exact opposite, he sticks to generalities (using clues to scumhunt is bad, lurking is bad, etc), he generally posts a lot of useless spam, that makes him seem active, yet never actually adds anything to discussion. He occasionally defends townies and if pushed will indicate a single target as "scum" with shoddy reasoning.

there are no clues in this game, i haven't talked about lurking once. i haven't defended anyone and i have had scumreads on you and wbg this game, and also team SS (which ill get to)
Show nested quote +

So basically what we are looking for with redFF are not indications that he is scum, but rather a lack of indications that he is town. That is, if he is not active and helpful then he is almost guaranteed to be scum. That said, lets look at his filter. Anything jump out at you? Any great analytically posts? Any attempts at finding mafia?

Show nested quote +

RedFF is playing an anti-town spammy style that is entirely unlike his contributory, transparent, spammy, town style. This somewhat matches his scum play, and is a clear indication that he is obviously not a townie, since he doesn't care what happens to the town.


i counter you with PYP interesting, i am in a hydra with ON I think its fairly obvious who is posting what. i was town.

also PTP2

both games im town, both games i post spammy one liners. Contrary to your belief GM, you don't need to post page long walls of bullshit to be town.

NOW HERE'S SOMETHING INTERESTING
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 23:38 deconduo wrote:
On November 04 2011 10:52 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 04 2011 10:21 deconduo wrote:
Prime scum team, probably worthy of a vote. I want to here what sandroba has to say first though, still haven't gotten in contact with him yet. Won't be able to until tomorrow either as I'm off to bed now.


Oh prime scum team? Funny, you haven't pointed out anything that was actually scummy.

At this point, I believe the scum team is contained in this set of players. Ideally I'd like to be able to narrow it down as more people start to post, but RoL, Kurumi, Crofty, iGrok, and Katzeleute all need to give us more to work with.

1. sandroba & Sevryn Deconduo - TEAM SS
3. Radfield & wherebugsgo - TEAM CHEZINU
4. Kurumi & RebirthOfLeGenD - TEAM NIPPLE
5. Crofty & Gmarshal - TEAM LIQUID
7. chaoser & hyshes - TEAM EDWARD
8. iGrok & Katzeleute - TEAM SWITZERLAND


redFF posting one liners instead of contributing is scummy. You posting one liners and setup fillers without contributing is scummy. You calling out other people to step while doing nothing yourself is scummy. Even this post is another piece of meaningless drivel. Instead of saying 'I think team x and y are town' you try and fluff out the post to make it seem like more content than a one liner. However its still just a one liner.

Vote: Team Red21

GM posts long fos, decon sheeps it with no original thought, decon attempts to start shitty bandwagon on a townie to save his scummy ass from being lynched.

##Unvote
##Vote Team SS

Please continue to misrepresent my arguments, it just solidifies the case. I know you spam, but when you are town you also usually contribute. You know, what I wrote in my huge ass argument, about how even though you spam you also give insight and reads, you contribute. Yes, contributing that thing you have failed to do all game long?

Only scum wait till they are actively threatened to start contributing. This is almost exactly what happened in Arkham, you were accused and wham, suddenly you have a bunch more contributory posts! I'm not saying you are scum for defending yourself. I'm merely saying you are scum defending himself.
Moderator
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
November 04 2011 16:03 GMT
#418
ah, so i can't defend myself
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
November 04 2011 16:04 GMT
#419
gm you ignored my examples aswell as what i said about team ss
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
November 04 2011 16:04 GMT
#420
On November 05 2011 01:03 redFF wrote:
ah, so i can't defend myself

Not really well not from not having contributed at all.

What you *can* do is offer an alternate lynch, with good supporting arguments!

That would go a long way towards remedying the whole "hasn't done anything all game long" argument.
Moderator
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