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Mr. Wiggles' Mason Circle Plan![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9mJtN.png) A Visual Representation
Hey, because people all decided to claim mason for some reason, what do we think about making a mason circle?
Let's say we have:
Mason A
Mason B
Mason C
Mason D
Mason E
Who I will refer to solely by letter from now on.
The circle would work like this:
A masons with B, B masons with C, C masons with D, D masons with E, and then E could either mason with A, or another player. This effectively creates a two way line of communication with all our masons. In other words, it creates a pseudo-mason circle.
This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. As well, this allows the same people to talk to each other day after day, simply by switching the order of the masoning. Additionally, this solves the problem of either ignoring masons, or worrying about mafia influence through talking to masons. With this plan, each mason should be passing on each message they receive, so all information will be disseminated in the chain, and it increases the likelihood of catching any scum mason who has claimed.
This plan relies chiefly, that all claimed masons will be active and diligent in passing on their PMs. If any mason is found to be active in thread, but not passing on their PMs, or having a sharp drop in activity and thus not allowing the circle to function, then we should consider them for a vig shot or lynch.
Next, there is the problem of a scum mason editing the messages he receives in order to sow confusion. First, we must agree that all masons will simply copy+paste any message they receive. Next, we have several options depending on what kind of circle we use.
If we have all masons mason each other, with no extra people, then we have a circle. So, each mason will simply pass his message along, with any additional text, in the same direction that his PM has been going. If he wants to respond directly to the person who PMed him, then he can send the PM in both directions. How this will work, is that everyone will always pass on each message they receive, until it reaches them again, at which time, they will compare the PM to their original and check for differences. (This program will help: http://www.sourcegear.com/diffmerge/ ) If they find any differences, then they will say so in the thread, and each mason will post their respective PM. Then, we search for the origin of the discrepancy. Scum will be hesitant to actually fake a discrepancy with their original PM, as it will essentially be trading one-for-one. Also, town has NO reason to doctor PMs they send out in the mason circle.
If we have all masons mason each other, but then add in an extra person to the circle, so that it's a line with two ends, we will have to use a different method to check for sinister editing. The first is that we post all PMs publicly in the thread. This reduces the effectiveness of the circle, but is the safest method for checking that all PMs were sent in their original form and remained intact. The other method, is for the two people at each end of the line to ask questions about certain PMs. It will be unlikely that both of them are scum, and if they are, they should only remain at the end of the line for one day. If they fake editing and we kill a couple of town masons, then we'll just cull the entire circle, as again, town has NO reason to doctor PMs they send out in the mason circle, so it must mean there are multiple mafia in the circle, or the extra people added to the circle were mafia. In this form of a line, each person will either send a PM in one direction if they don't add anything to it, or in both directions if the do. This again ensures that all players in the circle receive all PMs.
So, that's my plan for salvaging all the mason claims and creating a powerful tool for the town. We have two ways we can implement this. Either we go with a line, which is slightly more effective, as it allows an extra person into the circle, or we go with a circle, which is much safer. In my opinion, using the circle method is the better choice, for while the circle will be smaller, it lets us check much more easily for mafia influence, and the dissemination of information should proceed much more smoothly. This is open for discussion though.
What do people think?
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I dunno, it seems very fragile on first glance, especially if we go with the line method. I think the masons should be the ones to decide though.
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United States13896 Posts
On January 16 2012 05:30 kitaman27 wrote:
p4NDemik's motives seem questionable. I'm curious why he made your town list BM. His entire focus on day one is selecting a mayoral candidate and doesn't mention who he is suspicious of or would like to get lynched.
Since someone pointed out earlier that my filter wasn't working correctly I'll provide it here. Hopefully that works, otherwise I'm not sure why it wouldn't be functioning properly.
I'm not sure how I'm really confirmed town in anyone's eyes either as I've been more or less fairly inactive compared to many of the veterans that post in here. You're right in that pretty much my only focus was the election and I explained my reasoning for that: I've never played in a game with masons, I don't have personal experience to draw upon in the argument as to whether it is a role used better in the hands of town or mafia, and due to this I found the whole debate about them to be quite detrimental to what should have been the main goal in my mind. There was also a large fuss made about this Palmar lynch which however WBG want's to portray it was, in my eyes, 100% based on a meta that I had no knowledge of and therefore didn't care to speak to, either for or against.
I don't see how my focus on the mayoral election is really a bad thing. I wish we had more of it and less extraneous mason talk now.
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"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
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Sorry guys, I really meant to post before I went to bed last night, but I was absolutely exhausted.
On January 15 2012 21:52 Bill Murray wrote:Lynch, Lynch, Lynch!:
Protactinium (Mystlord/Incognito)
sandroba
risk.nuke
Munk-E
scumatlarge
Lanaia
Macpo
Mafia
Hello BM.
Care to explain why you want to lynch all of these people? I'm curious. I agree with some, but not with others.
Right now I have to drive to school (in another town) because it's supposed to snow like a foot tonight and well, that's not the best for driving. I'll be back later.
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On January 16 2012 07:43 supersoft wrote:
"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
How so? This is a mason circle that can talk to each other for longer than one day, as compared to random masons being able to talk to one player for one day, and never after that. Have you ever played in PM games, and do you know the effectiveness of a mason circle? The point is to bounce ideas off of each other, and create analysis. By talking continuously in PM, the masons should be able to get good reads on each other as well, thus strengthening the power of the circle once they root out any potential scum. Only dumb scum will actually be able to be caught by a town mason in this game by talking to them for one day (especially when they can just ignore the mason and use BC as an excuse), whereas this plan allows us to create a town circle to create analysis.
Right now, your post is completely worthless, as it provides zero reasoning for anything you said. Try harder.
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On January 15 2012 08:55 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 08:44 Protactinium wrote:On January 15 2012 08:37 rgTheSchworz wrote:
So confused at the moment. Have the feeling we're going nowhere, even worse, several of our blues have blundered.
I'm gonna vote BM, as Sandroba has the highest chance of being scum out of potential candidates.His posts have been weird enough, he runs for mayor then isnt particularly active or scum-hunting,some of his posts like the one with the eagle landing on his arm disturbed me.
I'll keep an eye on the following: Risk.nuke, Palmar.
I feel palmar still has a role to play. Don't lynch him day1, maybe day 2 if he continues like that.
The whole mason thing started by BC was useless in my opinion.50/50 chance of being mafia/town. Bollocks, they're maybe more town masons than mafia, maybe less. You can't know that, unless maybe.. you have external information.
Also, as sandro is suspicious and BC had made a sort of a deal with him, my feelings about this persona shall remain mixed at best. When the town isn't going anywhere, look for mafia interference. I clearly have been trying to give some direction to this thread, so there isn't really the excuse that the town is just newb and doesn't know what to do.Furthermore, this game isn't like some others where 2 mistaken townies pollute the thread by attacking each other on pretty thin grounds. If you look at the thread as a whole, you probably will only be able to find 1 player who really sticks out of the discussion, and that's BC. If you agree that the town isn't going anywhere, the question should be why. BC has steered the course of the discussion for the most part of this day, despite only having around 5% of the total game posts. While I have no problem with someone having this few amount of posts, an examination of BC's posts shows that he has created more ? He creates a discussion which blows up disproportionately to its significance in the game. In all seriousness, please it would be nice to know which of you is posting. At any rate, you have given what kind of direction with your 3 posts before this one where you claim to have been giving direction? You are representing yourself falsely. Something someone on the mafia team would do. You have also gotten a lot of support without posting damn near anything. I think your highly probable mafia.
I'm just again concerned about what I said being ignored. Everyone agrees with protact that was giving the town direction, when he only had three posts prior to the post where he claims he was giving the town direction?
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On January 16 2012 07:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 07:43 supersoft wrote:
"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
How so? This is a mason circle that can talk to each other for longer than one day, as compared to random masons being able to talk to one player for one day, and never after that. Have you ever played in PM games, and do you know the effectiveness of a mason circle? The point is to bounce ideas off of each other, and create analysis. By talking continuously in PM, the masons should be able to get good reads on each other as well, thus strengthening the power of the circle once they root out any potential scum. Only dumb scum will actually be able to be caught by a town mason in this game by talking to them for one day (especially when they can just ignore the mason and use BC as an excuse), whereas this plan allows us to create a town circle to create analysis. Right now, your post is completely worthless, as it provides zero reasoning for anything you said. Try harder.
pff your plan won't happen. I don't have to try harder. What the hell are you thinking? Do you think it's effective if BC discusses his reads with jitsu?
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What is the point of a mason circle? No one in it would be confirmed, so it seems anti town for a certain group of people to be passing around messages while everyone else is left in the dark.
What is there to talk about anyways?
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On January 16 2012 07:55 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 07:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On January 16 2012 07:43 supersoft wrote:
"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
How so? This is a mason circle that can talk to each other for longer than one day, as compared to random masons being able to talk to one player for one day, and never after that. Have you ever played in PM games, and do you know the effectiveness of a mason circle? The point is to bounce ideas off of each other, and create analysis. By talking continuously in PM, the masons should be able to get good reads on each other as well, thus strengthening the power of the circle once they root out any potential scum. Only dumb scum will actually be able to be caught by a town mason in this game by talking to them for one day (especially when they can just ignore the mason and use BC as an excuse), whereas this plan allows us to create a town circle to create analysis. Right now, your post is completely worthless, as it provides zero reasoning for anything you said. Try harder. pff your plan won't happen. I don't have to try harder. What the hell are you thinking? Do you think it's effective if BC discusses his reads with jitsu?
And if ~OpZ~ discusses with BC, or BC with ~OpZ~ or one of those with Sandoba (someone said he claimed?)? If BC discusses with Jitsu for example, then he should be able to determine if he is town or scum after a while, if BC is town. That then gives him an outlet to share sensitive information, that he doesn't necessarily want to post in thread, but would like to be published if he dies, such as the names of his BGs or his scum reads, or allows him to determine one of the members of the mafia. A town circle is one of the most powerful tools in the game. It's one of the most dangerous things for mafia, because it allows town to discuss and form analysis free from the influence of mafia, and it creates an information disadvantage for the mafia, as compared to the town. Scum no longer have perfect information, and they don't see everything that's happening. This relies on the effort of the town masons, however, to actually put the effort into the game to make this work. If they're not willing to, though, then I'm not even sure why they're playing.
What useful thing do you think that BC will do with his mason power otherwise? He himself has said that he would rather that masons either don't use their powers, or that everyone else just ignores PMs. How is that useful for the town?
So yes, you do have to try harder, because your reasons are bad, and you still haven't explained them. Good job dodging me.
Other benefits of the plan:
This also serves to confirm that all claimed masons really are masons, as they will be forced to mason with another mason, and pass along PMs. The only way this won't happen, is if two or more of the claimed masons are scum, but then there should be a breakdown somewhere, as masoning positions are changed each day, and I'm fine trading two masons for two scum, or whatever it would turn out to be.
It creates a target rich pool for medics. Mafia don't want a town circle to be established, so they will either be forced to shoot into the pool of masons, or allow one to form. If we threaten medic protection into the circle, then we can WIFOM the mafia to death.
Edit before posting:
On January 16 2012 08:13 Nisani201 wrote:
What is the point of a mason circle? No one in it would be confirmed, so it seems anti town for a certain group of people to be passing around messages while everyone else is left in the dark.
What is there to talk about anyways?
What do you mean what is there to talk about? It creates an environment where it is very easy to analyze and plan against the mafia. No players in the circle are initially confirmed, but after talking to each other for any length of time, they should be able to get a read on each other. Anyone not putting the proper effort into the circle, or trying to stop it's working from within can be fingered as scum. There's no reason for a town mason in the circle to try to hurt the circle.
One of the arguments against the masons in this game that I saw, is that they can only talk to someone for one day, so that makes them much weaker than normal, and that they cannot actually create circles, which neuters their ability. This plan circumvents both of those weaknesses.
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On January 16 2012 06:22 wherebugsgo wrote:
@ Toadesstern:
Please explain why you find bumatlarge to be scummy.
Also, summarize your thoughts on Protactinium and sandroba while you're at it. I want to know things from you.
as promised (sry took longer because I completly forgot it  ) about sandroba:
I don't like the fact that BC lynched Palmar at all. Sandroba was the guy who made BC lynch Palmar instead of whoever he wanted to lynch first. I asked BC and Sandroba to show me their pm logs, neither one did it and I don't like the coincidence of bc masoning sandroba although I have to agree that that one point probably is circular reasoning because I think it's something that makes bc scummy
Sandroba's budding with Palmar (without a reason) and with BC (without giving an explanation). Also he voted BC.
If you now look at what I posted about bum and BC you realize that there's a lot of mentioning each other within this circle of BC-Bum-Sandroba. I've got the feeling sandroba is trying to trick me/ us his picks and his style obviously is not helping at all.
My highest priority to lynch right now would be sandroba, followed by bum. I won't support a bc lynch although I think he's leaning scum for me right now because I'm not sure about my judgement of bc yet. I'd say he's got a 30-50% of flipping red instead of true 10 out of 50.
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The problem is that it's not a town circle. Once a single mafia gets in the circle, it becomes anti-town, because the entire mafia will have information that certain townies will not.
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Japan10647 Posts
I don't agree that Protact has been giving town direction at all. Notice how absent they have been for the vast majority of the last 24 hours?
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On January 16 2012 07:55 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 07:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On January 16 2012 07:43 supersoft wrote:
"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
How so? This is a mason circle that can talk to each other for longer than one day, as compared to random masons being able to talk to one player for one day, and never after that. Have you ever played in PM games, and do you know the effectiveness of a mason circle? The point is to bounce ideas off of each other, and create analysis. By talking continuously in PM, the masons should be able to get good reads on each other as well, thus strengthening the power of the circle once they root out any potential scum. Only dumb scum will actually be able to be caught by a town mason in this game by talking to them for one day (especially when they can just ignore the mason and use BC as an excuse), whereas this plan allows us to create a town circle to create analysis. Right now, your post is completely worthless, as it provides zero reasoning for anything you said. Try harder. pff your plan won't happen. I don't have to try harder. What the hell are you thinking? Do you think it's effective if BC discusses his reads with jitsu?
What the shit? Thanks bro. -.-
Well, I somewhat like the idea of the Mason circle, and if the other mason's agreed to it, I will more than likely go along with it as well to secure the integrity of the system.
I would personally leave it up to whomever the Mason chooses to buddy up with, though. If the person that the mason is PM'ing feels that he is being too Scummy, than out him in chat and let the other players decide as well. The person being PM'd can post the logs of the chat, and if the Mason is town and notices that the PM logs were changed, he can post his as well. At that point, I would say both players get killed/lynched. If one person is editing a PM to destroy credibility of the mason he is PMing, I don't see that as particularity pro-town play. I think this is exemplified with pretty much everyone that has been ousted as a Mason so far.
So, TL;DR version:
Mason A and Player B mason. Player B might think that Mason A is scum. Both players post logs. Town decides for themselves. If edits occur, I think it would indicate one of the two players being mafia. I don't think a Mafia for a Mason would be a good trade, so the likelihood of that happening doesn't seem very beneficial from a scum point of view.
Still gives adequate transparency if it's required of the town.
RE: Macpo -
I had similar feelings of Macpo as before. I feel that he is trying to drive home his newb-play early so that he wouldn't be held responsible for his calls/choices later in the game. So easy to say "Sorry guys, i'm new!"
I haven't been able to post my scum tells last post, here they are.
Basically, I think we kind of neglect all these players, who are basically hiding. I am not saying this 100% scums; some of them are probably really not here. but I also think it's more than 20% scum in there, we should keep this in mind:
- Refallen 2 empty posts.
- Munk-E 1 empty post.
- Brownbear 4 posts, 4lines.
- d3_crescentia 3 posts 3 lines.
- igabod 4 posts 4 lines.
- rtgICEMAN 4 posts, and no clear position.
- Maxella 2 posts.
Things like this.
He wasn't able to post his scum tells, so when he does, they are all lurkers. So none of the his scum-leaning players have more than 4 posts.
Macpo's last post was 'meh,' but i'm still having reservations. Not sure if it's just newbie play or not.
But I also have shitty scum reads, I guess.
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@Jitsu, if logs are given to the town, why not just have the whole conversation in the thread? That seems pointless.
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On January 16 2012 08:36 Nisani201 wrote:
The problem is that it's not a town circle. Once a single mafia gets in the circle, it becomes anti-town, because the entire mafia will have information that certain townies will not.
That doesn't matter. It does not become anti-town if a mafia enters the circle. The masons shouldn't trust each other to begin with, but it will very hard for any mafia to actually keep up a facade of being pro-town and contributory for long. This means the other masons in the circle will be able to sniff out and reveal any scum among them. This also forces all claimed masons to actually play the game and contribute, as they will be forced to perform in the mason circle.
Have you ever played in a game with PMs or a mason circle?
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Neighbor
Read that.
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Japan10647 Posts
On January 16 2012 08:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 08:36 Nisani201 wrote:
The problem is that it's not a town circle. Once a single mafia gets in the circle, it becomes anti-town, because the entire mafia will have information that certain townies will not. That doesn't matter. It does not become anti-town if a mafia enters the circle. The masons shouldn't trust each other to begin with, but it will very hard for any mafia to actually keep up a facade of being pro-town and contributory for long. This means the other masons in the circle will be able to sniff out and reveal any scum among them. This also forces all claimed masons to actually play the game and contribute, as they will be forced to perform in the mason circle. Have you ever played in a game with PMs or a mason circle? http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=NeighborRead that.
it does if it's someone like BC or L.
If I were scum in this game I would love your plan. I would infiltrate the fuck out of that circle and seed whatever bs I could come up with.
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On January 16 2012 08:45 Nisani201 wrote:
@Jitsu, if logs are given to the town, why not just have the whole conversation in the thread? That seems pointless.
Because it still allows the mason's to form a network of communication, and still holds both players responsible for things said in PM's, rather than "Shit, a break formed in the circle of Mason's. Shut it down."
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On January 16 2012 08:47 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 08:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On January 16 2012 08:36 Nisani201 wrote:
The problem is that it's not a town circle. Once a single mafia gets in the circle, it becomes anti-town, because the entire mafia will have information that certain townies will not. That doesn't matter. It does not become anti-town if a mafia enters the circle. The masons shouldn't trust each other to begin with, but it will very hard for any mafia to actually keep up a facade of being pro-town and contributory for long. This means the other masons in the circle will be able to sniff out and reveal any scum among them. This also forces all claimed masons to actually play the game and contribute, as they will be forced to perform in the mason circle. Have you ever played in a game with PMs or a mason circle? http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=NeighborRead that. it does if it's someone like BC or L. If I were scum in this game I would love your plan. I would infiltrate the fuck out of that circle and seed whatever bs I could come up with.
The thing is, we know who's in the circle, and so do scum. If the masons don't start dying and there's no missing shots after a while, then that means there's a strong probability that there's scum in the circle, and a strong player at that, like BC or ~OpZ~, as mafia don't want to leave a circle of townies alive and talking to each other. BC is a good scum hunter, so he should be able to find any scum in the circle if he is town, or at least know that he can't trust them. If he doesn't produce any scum from the circle, calls them all town, and then none of the masons ever die while spreading bullshit in the thread, then what's the logical conclusion? This means that a scum BC can't use his PMs secretly to sow confusion. If he's scum, it contains his influence in PMs to the mason circle, and we know where that influence lies. Also, if you're worried about BC being scum and influencing the circle, then why do you say you think he's town, and why did you vote him in for mayor? Did your read change?
Also, the only way for mafia to infiltrate the circle now, is to publicly claim mason. Mafia have already chosen their masons, so this also fucks over any plan they might have made to use them, as they either need to claim, which draws scrutiny to themselves, to infiltrate the circle, or they need to just sit back and hope they already have someone in the circle, or just hope the circle doesn't accomplish anything major, which they can't really do, with strong players in the circle.
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On January 16 2012 08:42 wherebugsgo wrote:
I don't agree that Protact has been giving town direction at all. Notice how absent they have been for the vast majority of the last 24 hours?
well yeah but he I consider him being right with some points about BC. I think the talk about masons was not good for town. We could have discussed something else as well, we had enough stuff (like who's acting scummy) and who we want to lynch.
BC kind of produced a mass claim. I still don't know if it's that bad but it certainly was not was he intended, at least not without discussing it but discussing it took way too much time when we needed to get a defined picture of our mayors.
So yes, protac posted very little, I am scared of him as well and I'd love him to be in no office at all. Still what he posted gave me town vibes.
What are your thoughts about sandroba, bum, bc and protac? I think I answered them good enough from my point of view.
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EPT
