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Is this for real? Lucid was so dead tho...
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First things first! Let's get to Pyo.
His first couple of posts set off pretty big red flags.
On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are.
These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting.
By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin'
This here is just blanket statement fear mongering. It's rarely ever been true in my recollection, the only person I remember doing that as scum is LSB in a couple of games. Besides that putting effort in and giving advice, generally not a very "mafia" tell.
On July 18 2011 17:52 Pyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 15:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On July 18 2011 14:49 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 13:22 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are.
These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting.
By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin' Meh, it's a null-tell again. Examples, GM in Real-Time Mafia, Kavdragon in Pick Your Power Insane. Both making long posts trying to direct town at the beginning, both town. Also, if you think my post is spam, please point out how. If you read it, I specifically say I'm not going to write a general how to play town guide, just give a little bit of general advice against what's made town lose in about three of the last four games I've played, and then talked about how to use clues properly and that killing Joker is a high priority for town. It's not even that massive either, haha. All you did in your post was herpa-derp the premise of the game. It's not meaningful in any way shape or form. I realize that people can meta-game that shit by always posting that crap at the beginning of their games so that whenever they are mafia it doesn't look so suspicious, but in general it's a really bad way to play if you really are town. Are you sure about that? I'm starting to question if you read posts or just skim through them. Also, the premise of the game is to kill mafia. If you want, I can go find the games where I won as mafia exactly because of the things I mentioned in my opening post. I can also reference you to a clue game where I used clues only, with no backing analysis, to win as an SK, thus the warning. The next bit is me analyzing the set-up a little, and bringing things up that no one mentioned yet about how there's a priority to killing off the third parties. That post is only useless if I don't hold people to what I wrote or make people follow what I said. So, unless you want the examples, I'm done with this. Look at my second point if you want the reason why. Do you really think that everyone is going to read every single post in detail - especially super long posts - in a 40-person game where half of the players have been described as "newbs" ? All people are going to do is skim a post get a feel for whether it is pro-town or not. And as has been declared by some people, they think you're pro-town. I, however, disagree as mafia often make those long policy like guidance posts at the start of games.
This was the next thing that struck me as odd People aren't going to read the game? That's such scummy thinking. The only time I ever skim a thread is as mafia, because you just need a general idea of what is going on to know what to do. Once more, fear mongering with "Thats EXACTLY what mafia would do" posts. You can read in Youngminii and redff's posts lines like that too.
On July 19 2011 22:22 Pyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 21:47 Palmar wrote:On July 19 2011 21:46 Pyo wrote:On July 19 2011 21:39 Kurumi wrote:
prplhz y u so flyin' like a g6 under the radar
Kavradgon, y u no aggressive like in PYPI
redff, y u so scum
supersoft,y u terrible scum
pyo,y u terrible 3rd party
come at me mafias This is like the 4th game I've seen of you now where you've been making insane posts like this. I would have thought that co-hosting a game would have gotten you to chill out, but I guess that was a little much to hope for. Throwing around accusations just creates chaos in an already chaotic day 1. hi, should we lynch redFF? He's been spammy, which while not good town behavior doesn't mean he's mafia. In fact, I'm almost inclined to think that there's no way mafia would spam like that as it almost invites a policy lynch, but that's a little too WIFOM to conclude anything. As I've said before, I don't have a strong scum read on anyone. This is also my first PM game so it is a little harder to judge things given that many posts are likely in response to or a direct consequence of some PM conversations. Once flips start happening it'll be easier/more reasonable to start drawing conclusions.
We have soft defenses of redff.
On July 22 2011 04:54 Pyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:34 youngminii wrote:On July 22 2011 04:32 Kurumi wrote:On July 22 2011 04:31 youngminii wrote:
lol you're calling this tunneling
oh my lawd you don't even know the definition I put a bomb on you shut up i'm guessing you're the guy that's been working with RoL backstage LOL good work son, i don't think i've ever played with you but your constant tf2 references are clearly the way to play nice claim as well, completely unnecessary and doesn't help town one bit Take a shot of LSD, put your underwear on your head and strap on your velcro shoes and you can play like Kurumi too. The problem with kurumi is that his actions in this game and past games are so incredibly random and illogical that that he's impossible to read or to believe. Claiming mad hatter has got to be the most pointless thing in the world. If you're telling the truth, why say so - no one is going to believe you. Most logical conclusion is that you're lying/bluffing in which case your bluff target is isn't going to believe you anyway... Objectively, it makes logical sense for RoL to have claimed medic if he really was hit... A 3rd party would realize that they got the wrong person given that he's still alive and wouldn't hit him again anyway. If a vig tried to kill him, they'd have used up their shot so there's no future danger from that person. So we're left with the only danger he'd be facing would be if his hit was from mafia. If mafia realizes that he's a vet they'll definitely hit him again and he'd be done. If he managed to convince them that he was medic protected then mafia wouldn't want to waste the shot on him. The problem is why make the claim in the first place? Does it really matter for town to account for all KP especially when there are so many different parties with KP and so many different ways to avoid those KP? Where is the logic in that? Why not just tell your PM circles that you got hit, why make that info public to the thread?
My issue with this post, is this is about his 3rd or 4th litle attack on Kurumi. Kurumi is by FAR the easiest person to fake a case on. On top of which he is downplaying the importance of town information, which is extremely scummy.
Overall, throughout Pyo's posting you are going to see him soft defending reds, pulling the newb card, and trying to fear monger. The exact same reasons we lynched youngminii a couple of days ago.
The reason I was defending Pyo so hard was to catch him off guard and make him trust me. I was trying to get information out of him in PM's and get him to feel more comfortable with posting in the thread.
After that we see him attack Kurumi a little more, and then just go with how I am voting without putting any thought into it just because I believe him. When I talked with Pyo on IRC a couple of days ago, hes the one who was pushing how significant he thought the voting list was, and stressing how lucidity must have been mafia.
So I decided to play along for a bit and see what I could drudge up. Ultimately with his actions on IRC and in game, I feel that he is by far the most scummy person. I will have another analysis of sorts on lucidity very shortly, but for now we need to switch over to Pyo.
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Original Message From Lucidity: You should know Naz is not my scum buddy. He is going to out you in the thread. It might be better if you out him first. But please only do it later. Show nested quote +Original Message From Kurumi: He pm d me -_- Original Message From Lucidity: How do you know? Original Message From Kurumi: Rebirth wants to fish last mafia Original Message From Lucidity: ?? Original Message From Kurumi: Ról is making a trap with pyo Original Message From Lucidity: Ok cool. Well good luck with the rest of the game. Original Message From Kurumi: Nazgul? Yes Original Message From Lucidity:
Has my associate contacted you yet?
Original Message From Liquid`Nazgul: i made a case on hiro earlier do you think we can push that next day? nisani is still pushable. the way I see it you and I can live for quite some time and have good enough town cred to move things away from ourselves. VE will probably fall at some point but I don't think we should push for that regardless. We can't defend him either though if it happens it happens. if we get a few more rounds without killing mafia people will also start to doubt palmar, who has already said if town isn't winning anymore people should lynch him. just need to get to that point. Show nested quote +Original Message From Kurumi: Well whatever. We have small chances of winning this. Original Message From Liquid`Nazgul: let's just say about as sure as i am of you being ii lol Original Message From Kurumi: Kind of.. how sure can we be he is ii? Original Message From Liquid`Nazgul: aren't we going to need him if he's ii tho? Original Message From Kurumi: He was useless and people will lynch him. Original Message From Liquid`Nazgul: i don't really understand that? like why him can't he be a remaining II? Original Message From Kurumi: I think people have town reads on us. We need to get viscera lynched. About shooting... Let me think. Original Message From Liquid`Nazgul: yea but I think we're pretty much fucked do you have any advice for the night? Original Message From Kurumi:
Hm You're the guy?
[quote]
How are You Palmar?
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I don't know RoL...I'm not sure about this. I voted Pyo because I like your case and I have NOT liked Pyo's posts up to now...but Lucidity was a done deal, and he was oh so delectably scummy. What gives yo, you seem to be more of an evidence kind of guy, do you have anything concrete other than PM feelings? I know yours are pretty honed, but still....
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On July 29 2011 07:44 VisceraEyes wrote:
I don't know RoL...I'm not sure about this. I voted Pyo because I like your case and I have NOT liked Pyo's posts up to now...but Lucidity was a done deal, and he was oh so delectably scummy. What gives yo, you seem to be more of an evidence kind of guy, do you have anything concrete other than PM feelings? I know yours are pretty honed, but still....
I will have an answer for that shortly, I have been working with lucidity the last couple of days.
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Too bad it's me blacksmith!
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On July 29 2011 07:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:First things first! Let's get to Pyo. His first couple of posts set off pretty big red flags. Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are.
These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting.
By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin' This here is just blanket statement fear mongering. It's rarely ever been true in my recollection, the only person I remember doing that as scum is LSB in a couple of games. Besides that putting effort in and giving advice, generally not a very "mafia" tell.
As I recall one of those two turned out to be mafia...
Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 17:52 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 15:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On July 18 2011 14:49 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 13:22 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are.
These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting.
By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin' Meh, it's a null-tell again. Examples, GM in Real-Time Mafia, Kavdragon in Pick Your Power Insane. Both making long posts trying to direct town at the beginning, both town. Also, if you think my post is spam, please point out how. If you read it, I specifically say I'm not going to write a general how to play town guide, just give a little bit of general advice against what's made town lose in about three of the last four games I've played, and then talked about how to use clues properly and that killing Joker is a high priority for town. It's not even that massive either, haha. All you did in your post was herpa-derp the premise of the game. It's not meaningful in any way shape or form. I realize that people can meta-game that shit by always posting that crap at the beginning of their games so that whenever they are mafia it doesn't look so suspicious, but in general it's a really bad way to play if you really are town. Are you sure about that? I'm starting to question if you read posts or just skim through them. Also, the premise of the game is to kill mafia. If you want, I can go find the games where I won as mafia exactly because of the things I mentioned in my opening post. I can also reference you to a clue game where I used clues only, with no backing analysis, to win as an SK, thus the warning. The next bit is me analyzing the set-up a little, and bringing things up that no one mentioned yet about how there's a priority to killing off the third parties. That post is only useless if I don't hold people to what I wrote or make people follow what I said. So, unless you want the examples, I'm done with this. Look at my second point if you want the reason why. Do you really think that everyone is going to read every single post in detail - especially super long posts - in a 40-person game where half of the players have been described as "newbs" ? All people are going to do is skim a post get a feel for whether it is pro-town or not. And as has been declared by some people, they think you're pro-town. I, however, disagree as mafia often make those long policy like guidance posts at the start of games. This was the next thing that struck me as odd People aren't going to read the game? That's such scummy thinking. The only time I ever skim a thread is as mafia, because you just need a general idea of what is going on to know what to do. Once more, fear mongering with "Thats EXACTLY what mafia would do" posts. You can read in Youngminii and redff's posts lines like that too. Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 22:22 Pyo wrote:On July 19 2011 21:47 Palmar wrote:On July 19 2011 21:46 Pyo wrote:On July 19 2011 21:39 Kurumi wrote:
prplhz y u so flyin' like a g6 under the radar
Kavradgon, y u no aggressive like in PYPI
redff, y u so scum
supersoft,y u terrible scum
pyo,y u terrible 3rd party
come at me mafias This is like the 4th game I've seen of you now where you've been making insane posts like this. I would have thought that co-hosting a game would have gotten you to chill out, but I guess that was a little much to hope for. Throwing around accusations just creates chaos in an already chaotic day 1. hi, should we lynch redFF? He's been spammy, which while not good town behavior doesn't mean he's mafia. In fact, I'm almost inclined to think that there's no way mafia would spam like that as it almost invites a policy lynch, but that's a little too WIFOM to conclude anything. As I've said before, I don't have a strong scum read on anyone. This is also my first PM game so it is a little harder to judge things given that many posts are likely in response to or a direct consequence of some PM conversations. Once flips start happening it'll be easier/more reasonable to start drawing conclusions. We have soft defenses of redff. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:54 Pyo wrote:On July 22 2011 04:34 youngminii wrote:On July 22 2011 04:32 Kurumi wrote:On July 22 2011 04:31 youngminii wrote:
lol you're calling this tunneling
oh my lawd you don't even know the definition I put a bomb on you shut up i'm guessing you're the guy that's been working with RoL backstage LOL good work son, i don't think i've ever played with you but your constant tf2 references are clearly the way to play nice claim as well, completely unnecessary and doesn't help town one bit Take a shot of LSD, put your underwear on your head and strap on your velcro shoes and you can play like Kurumi too. The problem with kurumi is that his actions in this game and past games are so incredibly random and illogical that that he's impossible to read or to believe. Claiming mad hatter has got to be the most pointless thing in the world. If you're telling the truth, why say so - no one is going to believe you. Most logical conclusion is that you're lying/bluffing in which case your bluff target is isn't going to believe you anyway... Objectively, it makes logical sense for RoL to have claimed medic if he really was hit... A 3rd party would realize that they got the wrong person given that he's still alive and wouldn't hit him again anyway. If a vig tried to kill him, they'd have used up their shot so there's no future danger from that person. So we're left with the only danger he'd be facing would be if his hit was from mafia. If mafia realizes that he's a vet they'll definitely hit him again and he'd be done. If he managed to convince them that he was medic protected then mafia wouldn't want to waste the shot on him. The problem is why make the claim in the first place? Does it really matter for town to account for all KP especially when there are so many different parties with KP and so many different ways to avoid those KP? Where is the logic in that? Why not just tell your PM circles that you got hit, why make that info public to the thread? My issue with this post, is this is about his 3rd or 4th litle attack on Kurumi. Kurumi is by FAR the easiest person to fake a case on. On top of which he is downplaying the importance of town information, which is extremely scummy.
I was calling kurumi a schizophrenic nut case, not scum. There's a big difference between the two. As for my soft defense of redFF, yeah I sort defended him. I've never played with him before so I had no idea how he played, and with people like palmar and Kurumi running around it seemed only natural not to automatically assume that some one is scum just because they act stupid. And that bandwagon was building up way too fast for me to feel comfortable joining.
Overall, throughout Pyo's posting you are going to see him soft defending reds, pulling the newb card, and trying to fear monger. The exact same reasons we lynched youngminii a couple of days ago.
The reason I was defending Pyo so hard was to catch him off guard and make him trust me. I was trying to get information out of him in PM's and get him to feel more comfortable with posting in the thread.
After that we see him attack Kurumi a little more, and then just go with how I am voting without putting any thought into it just because I believe him. When I talked with Pyo on IRC a couple of days ago, hes the one who was pushing how significant he thought the voting list was, and stressing how lucidity must have been mafia.
IRC? riiiggghht. You know if you were going to set me up, you don't actually have to lie.
So I decided to play along for a bit and see what I could drudge up. Ultimately with his actions on IRC and in game, I feel that he is by far the most scummy person. I will have another analysis of sorts on lucidity very shortly, but for now we need to switch over to Pyo.
This looks to me like you were trying to bus yourself from lucidity and were surprised by how much momentum you actually gained. I'm keeping my vote on him as my way of saying FU. Everyone else should do the same.
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Confirming the above ^
Basically RoL contacted me via PM and enticed me to have a chat with him on IRC. I took the bait, wanting to see what he was on about. I had thought he was Ra'as all game until then.
+ Show Spoiler +You pass the test ;P So now I can share with you my plan. Basically I have been talking with Pyo quite a bit and he keeps trying to push me on IRC to vote for you based off the voting list. I plan to let him believe that I find you scummy and see how he goes from here.
Anyway, get on IRC and we can hammer out some plans. Channel #RoLRulez on quakenet.
Original Message From Lucidity:
Kavdragon:
I'm not sure. He "forgot" to vote on Day 1, but he hasn't been very active overall so he could legitimately have forgotten to. Atm, he hasn't done anything too scummy. Let's say more town than scum?
Pyo:
Well this is an easy one. Scummy McScum. Just read the thread.
Palmar:
A strange one. He DID get YM lynched, which turned out to be the GF. He's most likely not scum at this point. His lies and inconsistencies are a point of worry though. I wouldn't be surprised if he does flip as Batman. At this point in time it's probably better to keep him around to take out scum until we can focus on the 3rd parties only.
So what's your plan?
Hide nested quote -
Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD:
Well, what are your thoughts on the players Kavdragon, Pyo, and Palmar?
Original Message From Lucidity:
I'm listening.
Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD:
I just finished analyzing you and I have a tentatively town read on you, even with your voting pattern.
I had an idea to try to out the last mafia through a certain player if you are game.
Let me know if you are interested.
So I met him on IRC and he laid out a plan. Essentially he was going to scumpaint me with a weak analysis. He would also start defending Pyo. Day 4 we would watch to see how people react to the analysis. Sure enough, Pyo and VE took the bait. And then the entire town after that. This is not how it was supposed to end up. The evidence against the initial wagoners is still strong though. The final step in the plan was to reach out to II's as a "desperate mafia". This worked wonderfully (Almost too well in fact, when he came back late). VE and Kurumi came forward as II.
Essentially this plan has town set for the next few days with wonderful lynch candidates.
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On July 29 2011 07:51 Kurumi wrote:
Too bad it's me blacksmith!
I mean look at that shit. I can't believe that saying that this guys must be on drugs is an argument for me being scummy...
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On July 29 2011 07:52 Lucidity wrote:Confirming the above ^ Basically RoL contacted me via PM and enticed me to have a chat with him on IRC. I took the bait, wanting to see what he was on about. I had thought he was Ra'as all game until then. + Show Spoiler +You pass the test ;P So now I can share with you my plan. Basically I have been talking with Pyo quite a bit and he keeps trying to push me on IRC to vote for you based off the voting list. I plan to let him believe that I find you scummy and see how he goes from here.
Anyway, get on IRC and we can hammer out some plans. Channel #RoLRulez on quakenet.
Original Message From Lucidity:
Kavdragon:
I'm not sure. He "forgot" to vote on Day 1, but he hasn't been very active overall so he could legitimately have forgotten to. Atm, he hasn't done anything too scummy. Let's say more town than scum?
Pyo:
Well this is an easy one. Scummy McScum. Just read the thread.
Palmar:
A strange one. He DID get YM lynched, which turned out to be the GF. He's most likely not scum at this point. His lies and inconsistencies are a point of worry though. I wouldn't be surprised if he does flip as Batman. At this point in time it's probably better to keep him around to take out scum until we can focus on the 3rd parties only.
So what's your plan?
Hide nested quote -
Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD:
Well, what are your thoughts on the players Kavdragon, Pyo, and Palmar?
Original Message From Lucidity:
I'm listening.
Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD:
I just finished analyzing you and I have a tentatively town read on you, even with your voting pattern.
I had an idea to try to out the last mafia through a certain player if you are game.
Let me know if you are interested. So I met him on IRC and he laid out a plan. Essentially he was going to scumpaint me with a weak analysis. He would also start defending Pyo. Day 4 we would watch to see how people react to the analysis. Sure enough, Pyo and VE took the bait. And then the entire town after that. This is not how it was supposed to end up. The evidence against the initial wagoners is still strong though. The final step in the plan was to reach out to II's as a "desperate mafia". This worked wonderfully (Almost too well in fact, when he came back late). VE and Kurumi came forward as II. Essentially this plan has town set for the next few days with wonderful lynch candidates.
The perfect plan for scum to absolve themselves of all scumminess... "we were just pretending to be scum." RIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTT!!!!! I hope the rest of town isn't dumb enough to actually believe this.
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I can confirm what lucidity said, I will have my analysis on him shortly. I got distracted by dinner.
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Hmm. So basically, we lynch Pyo, and if he doesn't flip mafia WE KILL ROL AND LUCIDITY!
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One of the most important things to being a good town player is analyzing. The common misconception about analysis is that it is solely meant to catch scum. This is not true. Often it is much easier and just as useful to know who is most likely town (based off analysis) then who IS mafia. Since townies CAN stand out, while a good mafia won't ever really stand out. Using that you can go process of elimination on the remaining players you couldn't determine.
I will show you how lucidity stood out as town, namely the key posts that I don't believe a mafia could make.
This is one of the first ones.
On July 19 2011 03:00 Lucidity wrote:Amg caught up to page 27. So tired now. Some thoughts: First of all, what's with all the mass one liner spam? kenpachi, redFF, Coag etc (Can't recall the other names right now, but can't be arsed to reread all that shit right this moment D: ). All of these are at the top of my suspect list so far. Wrt VT claims. What's the big deal? Mig in particular is harping on about it pretty aggressively. His A,B,C analysis contains massive flaws too. (I can expand on these if needed, but don't think it necessary) The fact is that everyone in the game is implicitly saying that they're VT (At least for Day 1). Blues are trying to come across as VT. Scum are trying to come across as VT. 3rd parties are doing the same damn thing. VTs too! Claiming VT is an absolute null-tell in my opinion. Whether you write it out or not is irrelevant. The fact that mig is going after them so much is a little worrying to me. I'm not sure if it's just bad logic on his part or scum painting at this point. (Strangely though, it seems as if this whole forum accepts it as being a scum tell?) Lastly, supersoft is almost asking to be lynched. I have no problem with his VT claim, but rather the way he reacted to being told he's acting scummy. I don't have much more to add at the moment that hasn't already been said about supersoft. Interesting post? Won't vote for someone simply because he wants a PM buddy? Woah there. Also relates to my previous 2 paragraphs. As for the Coag list: Don't see why it was scummy. Personally (as a newb) it gave me some info on who the vets are (assuming the list was accurate). I'll be sure to hold them to a higher standard  Not convinced that anyone is scum yet, so no vote.
In this post he is promoting a strong town environment, defending coagulation (townie) and one of the first people to accuse redff on day 1.
On July 19 2011 06:54 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 03:57 prplhz wrote:FoS on Lucidity Only two posts with content so far. + Show Spoiler +LinkOn July 19 2011 01:32 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:42 ketomai wrote:
In my opinion you shouldn't dig around too much into clues unless you have some specific reason to do so. Having everyone being accused a few times because of how clues are twisted will create confusion/chaos, which is never good. I don't really agree with this. Although we can all agree that chaos isn't good for town, you need to look at the possible benefits that the chaos can bring too. In this case, accusing some people a few times to see how they react can give us valuable information - freudian slips, overly defensive scum etc. The chaos should also be minimal if you think about it and only last a few posts. We'll get our info and move on. I think the net result is positive for town. I'm by no means an experienced player - I've only been in about 10 games and I've hosted 2 - but that's been my experience. Pressuring players usually benefits town more. Which brings me to my next point. I think we should be careful of looking at everything in black and white. "Chaos is bad" as above. Each case should be evaluated on its own merits. Policy lynches for example. While it is true that scum try to give away as little information as possible, "Lynch All Lurkers" doesn't really make sense. Every scum player knows that this policy lynch exists and thus they don't lurk. The only people you'll end up lynching with this strategy are bad/lazy/inactive players. That is, bad town or bad scum. Seeing that there are more town than scum players, you're more likely to be lynching a townie t_t Now I'm not saying lurkers should be ignored, but they shouldn't be lynched outright. I've personally been in a game where we won the game on the last day thanks to a lurker who became very active O: Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are.
These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting.
By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin' Haha, so true Oo It's almost as if scum try too hard to appear pro-town by posting generic guides. Care to comment CreamyButter? Only on page 20, but posting so long. A post full of nothing. Talking about how to play the game in very general terms "some chaos is good if done right", "lurkers might be town". Neglects that Mr. Wiggles kinda wrote that post in the beginning when there was absolutely nothing else to talk about, and that CreamyButter was responding to a question directed at him, and wasn't even posting "town guide". No original content, and also somewhat self contradictory in that he complains about town guides yet his post contains a lot about what is/might be/may just happen to prove useful to town in some scenarios, in very vague terms. + Show Spoiler +LinkOn July 19 2011 03:00 Lucidity wrote:Amg caught up to page 27. So tired now. Some thoughts: First of all, what's with all the mass one liner spam? kenpachi, redFF, Coag etc (Can't recall the other names right now, but can't be arsed to reread all that shit right this moment D: ). All of these are at the top of my suspect list so far. Wrt VT claims. What's the big deal? Mig in particular is harping on about it pretty aggressively. His A,B,C analysis contains massive flaws too. (I can expand on these if needed, but don't think it necessary) The fact is that everyone in the game is implicitly saying that they're VT (At least for Day 1). Blues are trying to come across as VT. Scum are trying to come across as VT. 3rd parties are doing the same damn thing. VTs too! Claiming VT is an absolute null-tell in my opinion. Whether you write it out or not is irrelevant. The fact that mig is going after them so much is a little worrying to me. I'm not sure if it's just bad logic on his part or scum painting at this point. (Strangely though, it seems as if this whole forum accepts it as being a scum tell?) Lastly, supersoft is almost asking to be lynched. I have no problem with his VT claim, but rather the way he reacted to being told he's acting scummy. I don't have much more to add at the moment that hasn't already been said about supersoft. Interesting post? Won't vote for someone simply because he wants a PM buddy? Woah there. Also relates to my previous 2 paragraphs. As for the Coag list: Don't see why it was scummy. Personally (as a newb) it gave me some info on who the vets are (assuming the list was accurate). I'll be sure to hold them to a higher standard Not convinced that anyone is scum yet, so no vote. Complaining about one-liner posters that's already been complained about. Huge rant about how it doesn't matter if people spam the thread up with VT claims while he knows that VT claims are useless. If they're useless then why do you think it's okay for people to spam the thread with them? Semi-jumps on the biggest bandwagon in this game but does not provide any original content or reasons at all. Overall he's also playing noob cards. So, Lucidity, who, besides supersoft, would you throw your vote at if you had to vote right now? A post full of nothingI might have gotten a little too much in to the theory, but there is a fundamental difference between my post and Mr Wiggles' (Which you claim is identical and makes me a hypocrite). If you look closely you'll see that my post was a reply to ketomai's suggestion that we shouldn't accuse some people due to clues. I disagreed and posted my reasoning for disagreeing (The "useless" theory). I think it's a topic worth discussing for when clues are found on Day2. Putting on pressure is always good. Mr Wiggles' post on the other hand is a general "Guide" post with strategies such as "We should take out the SKs". I don't see the similarity. Furthermore, there are much better ways to start off the day than posting a guide with info everyone already knows. In my experience people who write long guides on page 1 are often scum who try too hard to look pro-town. Complaining about things that have already been mentionedI'm not sure what the problem is here. I came to the thread late. Of course I will make observations later. Would you prefer that I not post if someone else has already observed something similar? VT "rant"Why do you call it a rant? I disagree with the opinion that it's a scum tell. Everyone in this thread seems to agree that it's an obvious scum-tell. So I gave my reasoning for why it's not a scum tell. I don't think it should be used in deciding who we should lynch today. Would you prefer that I simply say, "It's not a scum-tell" and not elaborate as to why? To answer your question: "If they're useless then why do you think it's okay for people to spam the thread with them?" - Because they're useless. And it was hardly spammed in this thread. It also makes me suspicious of mig as he's punting the theory rather aggressively by explaining why it is a tell - while his explanation doesn't add up. Jumping on the supersoft bandwagonIt's hardly a bandwagon. He is basically asking to be lynched. I agree that I didn't add anything new, but there was nothing new to add. It's basically all been discussed. Playing noob cardsI wasn't aware that I was doing that. If you're referring to where I mention that I've played 10 games and hosted 2, that's hardly a noob card. I was simply explaining the context of my observations. Read: "This shouldn't be taken as fact, but from the observations in my previous games... this and that." This is especially from the 2 games I hosted (Highly recommended ;p). Scum seem to squirm incredibly fast, even when they know better. _____________________________________________ This turned into a longer post than I intended, but I hope my previous posts have been clarified. I admit that I was tired after a long day and then reading all the pages in one go. My posts were quite lazy. Hopefully they make more sense now. (And seriously stop with the VT scum-tell spam t_t) _____________________________________________ Who would I lynch other than supersoft?I feel I need to mention that at this point I'm not ready to lynch supersoft. I'm not convinced that he's scum as opposed to a bad townie yet. I need to reread the thread. If I had to vote at this moment it'd be for redFF. He spammed the thread with inconsequential one-liners up to where supersoft came under fire. He then started making beefy posts to defend him. It's interesting that he only seemed to take interest in the game at that point. Possibly defending his scum buddy. I might be remembering the thread details incorrectly though. I need to reread the thread. I'll do so tomorrow and post an analysis. At the moment I am too tired. Do you still think RebirthOfLegend is the best place your vote could be? And why? PS. Was your use of hyperbole throughout the post by design or is that simply your posting style? PPS. Took me like 40 mins to write this post while doing other things. inb4ninjas.
This is another example of exactly what I said above. Promoting town atmosphere and pushing a mafia. If you read his actual insights on VT and supersoft they come out as logically sound as well.
On July 21 2011 00:58 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 00:50 Curu wrote:
Kav is off the hook because who gives a shit about traitors right now. We shoot one of them and figure out that clusterfuck after, is it that hard to understand? If you want so much to discuss it then figure out who of VE and CB you want shot and why, but go find more scummy scum scum too!
Lemme put it into game mechanics terms for you. If we kill all 3 of them tonight and they're all Traitors then yay! Mafia wasn't going to contact them anyways cause of VE's antics.
If we kill at least 1 Mafia between tonight and the day, Mafia loses their KP.
Hey Nisani making a node graph isn't an excuse to not do anything else (even moreso cause you're the only one using it if you're Town), this isn't a single player game. You clearly have a lot of info from it, start pointing some fingers and naming some names. I don't think ignoring IIs is a good idea, but hunting scum is obviously more important. The reason so many people are commenting on the traitors is because we seem to have a lot more info regarding them than scum atm. Just remember that IIs can still work against town, and their votes at the end of the game can decide who wins. But my question was actually directed at Nisani. He says Kav is off the hook, but the other 2 claims should die. He's not ignoring the traitors. I don't see why Kav is off the hook.
This is also an extremely logical post. A lot of people were caught up trying to resolve situations with II's. The truth of the matter is II's are worthless and serve to basically waste a lynch, which a lot of people were advocating we do, which even I did. In the end because we didn't focus on the II's we ended up getting a red.
I am going to save you guys going through even more posts, but you can go ahead and use this lovely filter button and get an idea of what I am talking about. I feel these posts perfectly exemplify the protown and productive attitude Lucidity had all game and why I trusted him enough to try to pull of this strategy.
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RoL suffering from fancy play syndrome. Pyo was always a good candidate and you provided near no new information. Very annoying to mess up town with all this crap. You are creating a horrible situation for town and you think it is helping us.
I'll provide a case for a person that is 100% scum (II): VisceraEyes
We can always come back to RoL's fancy play syndrome arguments after we vote VE out.
Conversation with Lucidity about Lucidity faking mafia and getting II to message him. Involves me in this as the person who is supposed to message the II's that contact him. I have PM'ed Drazerk of this plan and he is fully aware of it and will confirm it before the day ends.
+ Show Spoiler + yo
hi
You're not an II are you :D?
not like youll believe me either way
haha
so just say what u wanna say
well I'm trying to catch some II's with their pants down
even after I die tonight
The plan is for them to claim to me
Then I'll tell them an associate will contact them if he trusts them
so my scum partner~ can be you?
seems like there are better players for that
I don't think anyone is online
does day end tonight?
but people will trust you easier I think
yeah
so the only way i can believe you is if you dont fight your lynch at all
Well the town is being completely retarded
RoL's case is paper thin
and full of lies
so he has some agenda, I don't know what
but people aren't goint to change their votes
so I thought I might as well try to do something before I die
rol was going to "mount his case"
and wrote 4 lines
that was hilarious
yeah
nice mounting
anyway what do you want me to do
It's even more hilarious that the whole town voted me after that haha
basically I'll just send you a list of players that claimed to me
and then you can contact them pretending to be mafia
some will be faking to get in
say you got the message from me
ye for sure
but i need to claim to a 3rd person right
so i dont go down
if you trust someone completely, you can
but I don't think it helps either way
You'll just be posting PMs
well if someone fake claims to you and he is town
and ill be msging him as mafia
the people claiming to be II are just as guilty of lying as you
ill be lynched
haha
-,-
well
before you go ahead with the plan then
msg a 3rd party
but tell me who it is first
why
in case he is one of the IIs that claimed
ok
anyone claiming yet
not yet
but they will come
I'm sure :O
well you dont have much time
ye i know
haha
5 hours to deadline
well ok ill just play along
nothing to lose
cool cool
will you stay on IRC?
yea ok
It's faster to communicate
ok so
I got one :D
haha who
The plan is to msg him as Mafia
but be cautious etc, as if you're realy Mafia
you don't really trust him etc
and then we wait until deadline
to see if he posts the convo in thread or not
if he doesn't, he's II
if he does
well I'll come up for you
and your 3rd party
erm, it's Kurumi
he will post it after day ends
and kurumi is just nuts
he will say anything anytime
so that sucks
rather would have had a more calculated player
yeah
but it's still worth a shot to see what he does I think
who was the 3rd party you msgd?
i didnt yet still figuring it out
ok
just don't make it RoL
^^
who do u advice i mean
i dont totally understand the 3rd party relationship to town
does palmar being batman make him the mmost trustworthy?
oh
don't message palmar :O
i was thinking shraft personally
By 3rd party I just meant someone that you trust
oh not him either :D
haha
why?
Palmar and Kurumi seem close
I think he'd let Kurumi know about the plan
how about shraft?
Have you been in contact with him in PMs?
no momost of my contact has been with palmar mig varys rol
so who do you trust the mmost?
you
haha
rofl
besides me
because of the whole Mig/Varys claim thing
im gonna have to tell SOMEONE
erm
ye
I would say supersoft
like i dont trust hiro/nasani/rol/pyo
man he was so scummy at one point
how about drazerk?
he's also high up imo
I'd go with supersoft or drazerk
VE also claimed II to me
see that is
a lot better.
so what do you suggest i do? ive pmed drazerk the plan so hes aware
Just pm saying you're my scum buddy
after tonight you'll be the only one left
so it was time to gamble and reach out to IIs
basically II's goal is to get in contact with mafia.. why exactly
ye
they win with Mafia
if mafia win they win
so Mafia want to avoid shooting them
yea but what can II do for mafia?
ok
and II want to avoid lynching Mafia
they can vote along and what i just said ;D
oh they can actually put in votes as for who dies at night?
i really dont think they will believe im mafia tho lmao
for the same reason youre msging me
well they can vote in the day I mean
so they can try to further the Mafia agenda
ye
but they believe I'm Mafia
so if I sent you, they should believe
I think :O
haha well
lol
Don't worry, I also told a 3rd party about this plan
k
so if they try to take us out, we have ample evidence to the contrary
haha
I'm sure one of them will be a fake claim
kurumi im pretty sure
VE already claimed once
heres another concern
if i msg kurumi
and he exposes me
then ill have to defend myself and get nothing out of VE
so i could decide only to msg VE
they're both online atm
I think try them at the same time
They'll probably not post right away
try to get some more info out of you
k
lets say i would want to go after these guys after you die
who should i trust to share my plans with drazerk again?
hes not really so active in the strategy
maybe Palmar if Kurumi ends up being town
otherwise I'd say...... ye
dunno
haha
you've already told drazerk about it
so that might be the safest choice
yea but thats just to protect myself
not to strategize
ye
HMM
can you explain why you dont trust palmar
I just don't trust Palmar with info regarding Kurumi
hes a smart player
if the evidence is there he has no issue with anything
if you trust his role then thats enough
ye
I'm not sure what he is atm
haha
probably a 3rd Party
he has lied quite a bit in the past few days
the question is though
we're sure he is mafia
uh
not mafia
99.99%
if hes batman, hes on our side
ye he doesn't make sense as mafia
if hes joker that would be very strange causejoker needs to balance the game
and hes just scumhunting for imbalanced game
batman is on his own side, but he'd like you to believe he's on town's side
but what he does is good for town right
some of it is
his night kills are all about Joker
he couldn't care less about scum I'd say ;D
yea but we need joker dead right
the pms are going very well
nice
im almost starting to believe they may both be ii
haha
no way
do you want to paste them in here?
theyre probably trying to fuck with me if theyre not though so whos to say
lets see how this looks
we'll see if it goes to the thread... if not
------edited out pms cause its confusing
irc layout is ugly
ah yes
that would be better 
check pm
kk
to my last pm kurumi replied
We will see their lynch Target during the night
i dont understand that
yeah
hmmm
I never understand kurumi though tbh
haha
i think he means
once night starts town will discuss their lynch
and we make plan based on it
so is it just me or do they both look like ii lol
I don't know
haha
i'm terrible at this ;D
LOL
nice
well this is a pretty sick ploy
so gj at that
lol ta
I think it's curious that Kurumi wants to lynch VE
if he thinks VE is II
anyway
not so much to say right now i think i gotta wait till you flip green |
EPT