EPTTL Mafia XXXVIII
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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On April 04 2011 08:34 chaoser wrote: lololol kav Oh lol. Hmm. Guess I should take that down for now. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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##Lynch: Aidnai | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 09 2011 07:31 chaoser wrote: ok guys, let's all claim to Dr.H Obviously another scum. Only someone with PM rights would think of a plan that involved claiming via them. FoSChaoser. | ||
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Kavdragon
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If the all feature is gone by day two, i will be very, very, unhappy. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 09 2011 09:04 tnkted wrote: How do most regular non-insane games start? With mayoral campaigns? Most games that I've seen usually start with some discussion around the Mayor, or if we should lynch an inactive day one. Both server the main purpose of getting people to talk, posit forth ideas, and give opinions that can be analysed for the rest of the game. Their secondary purpose is to actually decide they lynch/mayor. On April 09 2011 09:20 Lanaia wrote: Do we, uh, talk during night in every TL game or what? As much as I would like to say that the answer is a definite "yes", I cannot deny that it is debated. On that note... Kavdragon's Argument for Night Activity (NOT SPAM) General Argument for Night Activity : Gives more posting to be analysed General Argument against Night Activity: Helps scum choose who to kill. Firstly, posting at night is good for more than just additional content. It's good because it forces scum to contribute to the town even when they have to spend time to figure out their night actions. It's really hard to stay active in the thread when you are trying to figure out a bunch of stuff with your scum team. Secondly, posting at night does NOT help mafia pick their targets if town does it right. If you've been really active in your scum hunting all day and nobody posts at night, it's going to be really easy for the mafia to spot the people they need to kill. Posting at night allows others to come forward and create more targets for the mafia to decide between. I honestly think that the reason people argue this point, is because mafia don't like having to post at night, and don't like others doing it either. I think that mafia actively try to get the town as inactive as possible, and this arguement leaks out of the game and into other games and so on. In normal games like this, inactivity has traditionally taken a large role in the game. Town loses if they go too inactive, so mafia will just sit back and snipe anyone who gets vocal/active. For those of you coming from insane, just know that the average post count for a normal mafia game is well under HALF that of Insane. The activity level is usually MUCH lower, so we have to fight it. If we are fighting inactivity as it is, I see no reason why we should throw away a third of the time we have. It is a generally accepted fact that the longer the day/game goes, the better it is for town. I don't see how throwing away the night cycle is exempt from that rule. All that being said, I know that some people have traditionally held the view that night speaking is bad, such as Coag, and Aidnai. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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On April 09 2011 08:58 GMarshal wrote: Wait till Day1 and then start actually being able to plan and do crap... I disagree on the basis of your argument for talking at night. Also, once the day does start, chances are the discussion will be taken over by mayoral discussions. Let's use this time that we are forced not to talk about the other conversation starter: Do we lynch an inactive day one? My thoughts: I think that we should lynch an inactive. People who are active can actually be read/analyzed later on, but inactives will always be an there in the back of our mind. This also pressures inactive players to become more active. Since we have a pardoner and traditionally Day one lynches are wrong, do we want to lynch day one? My thoughts: The pardoner only gets to pardon one lynch and while I've never played with a pardoner before, I don't think that that power should be use that lightly. In addition, not lynching on day one takes away our ability to pressure people. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Sorry. When I was scum I was content to let the spam fly in Insane, but I don't want that here. Please keep this on topic. This is not just about the all button, it's about keeping the thread clean of spam so that the good posts can be seen. More than one person stated "5000 replies" as a reason not to do analysis in Insane. I don't want that happening here. There was a lot of activity in insane, but a lot of it was spam. I want the best of both worlds now. I want little spam, and lost of activity. I'm trying to call this out BEFORE it becomes a problem, but even so far people have been pretty spammy. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On that note, I'd like to say a few things about the type of person we vote in as mayor. When I made my campaign for mayor in Insane my main argument was that the office should be used to protect people who are good at analysis. I was being honest in that game, and I still think that this is important. However, Bum's mayorship in Insane made me realize something. The primary task for the mayor needs to be leadership. Never saw that one coming, right? The mayor holds a lot more power than I had previously thought. People vote in a mayor, and when they do that, they give the mayor their trust. This means that the people will almost always give an ear to what the mayor is saying. He has the power to direct the town like no one else, and direction is something that is critical to a health environment for analysis. When the town is focused, it's next to impossible to for the mafia to interfere with it. So I will say that above all, the mayor needs to be someone who can lead the town. Analysis is still a very good skill for the mayor, but I have to revise my opinion and put it after leadership. The mayor needs to be someone who can keep the town focused, and apply pressure to scum, and put down the spam that can choke the thread to death. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote: Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill Hah, even if they weren't out to kill each other Mayor is a good role for anyone. (Yes, even an SK) The reason I ran for mayor last game was because it would insure that the mafia would never hit me, and my i would have a reason for not dieing. (It gave me the perfect place to hid my bulletproofness.) On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss. Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia. | ||
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Kavdragon
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We MUST have someone who can Lead. We MUST have someone who can analyse. We MUST have someone who is clearly town. We can argue about the prioritization of those three, but we cannot do without all three. Bumatlarge's play as Mayor last game showed us what happens when someone is good with analysis, but not with leading. (Yes, his analysis was good. He never had to show it to the town, so you didn't get to see it, but he pegged both Darm and Me as black, and he made several other good reads that game.) GMarshal: I understand that anaylsis is important, and i fully agree that whoever we elect needs to be good at it, but we cannot elect someone who doesn't also lead. If we have someone who is great at leading, but leads us in the wrong direction, of course that's bad. Kitaman: I understand that electing someone who is clearly town is important and i completely agree, but we cannot do it at the sacrifice of analysis and Leadership. If we elect someone who is an idiot who can't lead, but is obviously town we succeed only in preventing the mafia from gaining the office. That's not good enough. (Even then if he's really stupid with his analysis he'll end up helping the mafia...) Can we agree on that? | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 04:04 kitaman27 wrote: No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins. Oh, and this is a really good point. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 04:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote: what happens if the mafia doesn't run Then we have a bunch of analysis that says "soandso" is town. Confirming townies is very useful as well. You seem to be working hard to put down my efforts, but the only thing I see you doing is encouraging spam, an putting down others. Why don't you put forth any of your ideas? | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 05:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: because i dont feel the need to write paragraphs about useless shit saying basically: 1. the mayor is important! 2. the pardoner is also important 3. be careful who you vote for! 4. mafia may or may not run for mayor! 5. we should pressure inactive people! this is all obvious stuff. no one has said anything of value yet and because the game hasn't even started I haven't taken the time to scrutinize the game setup and come up with a plan for how I'm going to play this game or where I think the town should go. but that doesn't mean i can't smell your "look at me and how townie i'm acting!" bs right away Yes. This is obvious stuff. I know that. What is also obvious to me (but aparently not you) is that we have a lot of new players with us this round. Much of this will NOT be obvious to them, so I'm helping them out. I agree that there hasn't been much said that is useful in this game thus far, but we're never going to get ANY thing if we don't start posting. It's night 0, and I don't want this town to spend the entire game figuring out "obvious" things. I explain my reasoning, so they can examine it and then make decisions for themselves. These are all things that would have helped me when i first started playing mafia, so I'm passing them on. | ||
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Kavdragon
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The first night 0 I ever played with, RoL was mafia and he raged over how horrible/unfair a thing it was to do that to a mafia team afterwards. I consider this conclusive proof that using night 0 as much as possible is a good idea. Is this why you don't like my play? I view night 0 very differently then you. The game started as soon as i got my role PM imo. Night 0 is really just Day 1 by another name. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 09:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote: no i just think its amusing that hes basically apologizing for inactivity when the game hasnt started if youre trying to imply im mafia or that im even criticizing the existence of night 0 that doesnt help your case Lol no, I'm just trying to understand you, and explain myself. Also, in regard to your comment on my play being similar to Pokemafia, I was never this active in that game. My play this game is much more like XXXVI. I'm playing this way, and being open about my ideas/opinions because it's important that be easy to read this game. There's already a party of six(?) conspirators who have formed up to get me lynched day one, so I've got to do my best to head them off before they get started. :D | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 09:42 kitaman27 wrote: You guys agreed on a godfather already? Bravo. Lol, I don't need godfather. I'll just argue my way out of the lynch once someone DT's me as red. :p And sure, if you have a doubt in you mind as to my alignment by N1, then DT me. There's no framer, so I don't have worry about it being wrong. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 10:06 urashimakt wrote: Well, you might expect a townie to suggest not wasting a DT on them. Scum could be more prone to bluffing in order to gain trust and convince the town to DT someone else, so they feel like not DTing Kav is their own idea instead of his. So I can see why he says "scum slip", even if it's just a night 0 joke. You forgot option three: Play so obviously town that no one wastes their DT check on you. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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I offer the experience that I have gained from previously being mayor. I offer strong leadership, something that already demonstrated in XXXVI, but I have worked on and further improved on since then. I offer my skills as an analyst. My analysis in XXXVI was key to the town's victory, and while I have not had the chance to demonstrate it since then, I have been talking with veteran players (Ver, BC, and Foolishness) constantly since then about how I can improve my play, and analysis. I will be offering my ideas, opinions, and thoughts openly to make my alignment clear to the town. I offer victory for the town. Vote for Kav! | ||
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Kavdragon
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Given that there are a lot of newer people, and given that there is a lot of KP in this game, there are two things I want to accomplish: One: I want this to be an excellent learning environment for newer players. I plan on spending a good amount of time directing people, and helping accelerate their education, particularly when it comes to analysis. Two: We cannot rely on a small group of people doing all the work. With a mafia this large, and KP so high, they will be able to snipe the "head" of the town easily. Because of this EVERYONE needs to pull their own weight. I want EVERYONE analyzing. I want to mobilize the whole M sector so that the mafia can never rid this town of analysts. These goals go hand in hand and will serve the dual purpose of achieving victory for the town, and bringing in our newest members into the fold of mafia. (Welcome all you who are new to TL mafia!) Oh, and agreed GMarshal. Voting for myself is weird. ##Vote: GMarshal | ||
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Kavdragon
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The biggest problem, first and foremost, is that other assassins will be gunning for our body guards if you were Mayor/Pardoner. You may have two KP you are willing to lend us, but is it worth it if all the other assassins are going to be attacking townies because of it? Another problem is that putting you in the position of Pardoner OR mayor would give you information about the bodyguards, something that would be quite valuable to the mafia. Since your win condition is not the same as our, I don't think that it would be wise for us to trust you with that information. I loved the idea when I first read it, because I was thinking about how the assassins don't have a conflict of interest with the town, so it'd be great to get them working for us, but the problem becomes that we have to pick one of you to work with. That will set all the others against the town, and that counteracts the usefulness in a pretty big way. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 13:36 Eiii wrote: Also once his two assassin buddies die off, he gets removed from the game-- and we lose our nice 3-vote mayor (or pardoner). Just want to point out that Eiii is assuming that there are three assassins. Assassins, if he's assuming the correct number....Well. That'd be interesting, wouldn't it. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 10 2011 21:17 Barundar wrote: Kavdragon, I feel you need to put more effort into your campaign, you posted a lot during night 0, but seem to have gone more quiet around your own candidacy. Yes, sorry about that. Regardless of whether or not I win, I'm going to be trying to help everyone get jump started. I'm currently working on a rather large post, but it was interrupted by a sudden realization. I'll reveal later, but it wouldn't make sense to do so now. Hopefully I'll have both done by this afternoon. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Protactinium is Red. Dr.H is Red. First and foremost, don't let anyone fool you into thinking that the mayor is a unimportant role. It's EXTREMELY powerful, and VERY helpful to the town. This is a problem for the scum team, so they need a plan to bring it down quickly. So what do you do? First, you try to get a member into the office. It doesn't matter WHICH spot because they are both told the names of the bodyguards, and it doesn't matter HOW it's done, because the person put into that seat will be a sacrifice. Letting one of 8 members die is an excellent trade if you knock out the mayor, and secure the pardoner's role for it. As a bonus you can knock out most, if not all meaningful discussion the first day. Now how can this be done? Have one member claim assassin, have another intimidating member bully and be extremely negative of everyone else running for mayor. My case for Protactinium v1.0 Protactinium has done only one thing so far, and that is announce and defend his Assassin claim Gambit. An interesting, and somewhat appealing plan at first glance, but upon deeper inspection doesn't make sense. I know that Protact is a VERY skilled scum player. He's a good player all around. This gambit of his is a huge risk, because he doesn't know if town will let him in. If he played it quietly, he'd have a better chance than most. He says he came up with a new way to try to survive: become pardoner. It makes sense for a little bit, because that spot is protected. But there's a problem: As he has said multiple times, he wants to use this to get into the endgame, where he can throw his last hammer and then be done. It would work if the mayor lived that long, but to quote foolishness, "Mayors have a pretty high mortality rate". He wants to hid behind bodyguards, but look how fast they fell in insane! Over all, there is SOME validity to the strategy, but not NEARLY enough for someone of Protact's skill level to try it. It's not his level of play. It doesn't make sense. On the other hand, what if he's Red? It'll become apparent enough pretty quickly, and he'll die. So that makes no sense, right? WRONG. There are 8 players on the scum team, and the mayor is a very powerful role. You can cause TONS of havoc from this position, and if you play it right, you might even be able to survive for a few days and stop a lynch. It doesn't even matter if the lynch was going to kill a townie or mafia, because when you flip, people will see that mafia stopped a lynch, and that person is sure to be lynched again. This saves them a whole day either way. This is EXACTLY the level of play I would expect out of an excellent scum player. Before you say that Mafia wouldn't sacrifice one of their better players, it's was done before when Protact and BloodyC0bler were playing in XXVIII. Protactinium is SCUM He is my currently on my "to-be-lynched" list, and even if you don't agree with my conclusion that he is definitely scum, you cannot deny that there is a strong possibility, and because of this, he should not be voted into office. No question. My Case for Dr.Helvetica v1.0 I've only played with Dr.H once before, and that was in Salem. It was my first game, and I was subbed in. he played EXTREMELY differently in that game. He was positive, helpful, and gave good insight and ideas freely. This game he has been extremely negative of almost anything suggested. He has used his considerable prowess at being intimidating to bully players, and stomp on very pro-town ideas. On top of that, he has been posting TONS and been pretty spammy about it too. There's a lot of new players, so what better way to scare them off than to drown them with hundreds of posts? On April 10 2011 04:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: kavdragon is saying a lot of useless bullshit trying to appear protown and basically his posts are this: words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words obviously no mafia would say THIS much "pro-town" stuff that everyone already knows amirite ;o???? i'm not buying it. you did this same thing in pokemafia which i hosted Stomping on my attempts to help newer players. On April 10 2011 11:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: so many words gmarshal so many words Stomping on Gmarshal's attempt at running for mayor. On April 10 2011 13:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote: no its not a scumtell ill vote in the vote thread im not gonna waste my time posting all my votes in here especially since i tend to switch votes a lot this is dumb. there will be a dedicated vote thread. if you want to know who votes for who, you can read that thread. less clutter here = better Stomping on Tnkted's EXTREMELY PRO TOWN IDEA. All of this is EXTREMELY ANTI-TOWN no matter how you look at it. Everything he is doing is clearly designed to snuff out new people so that we have tons of inactive players. Doc H is a good mafia player, and there's no way that this is not being done on purpose. Doc H is mafia, and he's doing a damn good job of both spamming the thread to pieces, shutting down pro-town ideas, and intimidating new players. These are just a few examples of how he is destroying a pro-town environment in the thread. I think that everyone has seen this for themselves though. He has almost 100 posts and it's not even half way through day 1! He has contradicted himself multiple times with his mayoral campaign (I'm not going to run --> Mayor is unimportant, and i wish it weren't here --> I can't trust ya'll, I'm going to run). The reason why he singled me out so early was because I am dedicated to doing exactly the oposite of what he is trying to do. I will not get sucked into an argument with him that will spam the thread. I will not stop posting good advice for newer players. I know it looks scummy. I don't care. It will help newer people, and that's worth it. If I can mobilize the the masses before i die, i die a happy death. I refuse to stand by while he destroies the learning environment I am trying to build up. DoctorHelvetica is SCUM | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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On April 11 2011 06:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: he'd lynch me because i know he's scum First, no. I'm really, really tempted to lynch you because you are spaming so much, but I know that you CAN be a better player as town, and I won't risk a day one analysis on a player who can be a huge asset to the town. On April 11 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote: Fuck, I had to decide to check the thread before leaving Kav, I think that your call that Dr.H is scum is flat out wrong, there's no way (in my mind) that the scum team would put out two vets like that day one, especially considering one of them is a really, really influential and powerful player. Still if you get mayor which of them do you think you would lynch? Tbh I have a town read on Dr.H for his mindless aggression, it reminds me sort of coag, except perhaps more refined. Yo. read XXVIII. BC and Protactinium were BEASTS for the mafia team, and they raped the town. Both were very active right off the bat. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Dr.H. This is what I'm talking about. There's more than one way to tell someone they are being obvious. This is a very negative way of doing it. You are being very hostile towards everyone, and that builds a very hostile environment. That is NOT what we need when there are new people. Your play is detrimental to the town because it will cause half the town to go inactive, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE RIGHT! | ||
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Kavdragon
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i will say it again. If I were scum, do you think I wouldn't realize that posting general advice is a bad idea? OF COURSE I would! I know that. But I'm town, and i see a need, so I'm filling it. I don't care if helping newer players makes me look scummy. I'll flip town and you'll see that it was simply my mission this game. I want to raise up the next generation of players to be better. I wont to foster their development. You are are being way to hostile. Tone it down, PLEASE. | ||
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Kavdragon
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If elected (yes, I'm still running), i will lynch an inactive still. They are the people we can't analyse, and that is what I will be teaching, pushing and doing. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Over the my past four games, I've had the opporunity to participate with scum teams twice. The experiance of being on a scum team was really helpful in identifying ways of finding scum, because I got to know how scum teams work; the challenges they are faced with, the reasons why scum still act scummy even though they know to avoid it, and so forth. Now that I'm not scum, I'd like to pass these things on. So without further ado, here's my two cents on scum. #1: Know your enemy: If you want to figure out how to find scum, you have to see things from their perspective. When I first started playing mafia, I was confused how a scumtell would ever work. If there was such a thing as a scum tell, why wouldn't mafia just NOT do that thing? I didn't understand why mafia would NOT participate as much as the town, or why they would try to not contribute, while looking like they really are. Then I got on a scum team, and i figured it out: Scum tells are things that are extremely difficult to avoid even when you know about them. When you are on a scum team, there are two key factors that alter your play: You are on a team, and you know who is scum. These are both things that you cannot avoid. Because of this, scum tells can be built off of them. Because you are on a team, you will be talking to the other members of your team. This takes away a significant portion of your time, especially if you had team members that were as funny as mine were. Beginner scum players want to look like they are contributing because they are not good at hiding a lack of contribution yet, so they actually try to contribute. Unfortunately they don't have as much time to evaluate what is happening and what is the best plan for town at the moment. Because of this, they fall back on giving general advice, and give no real opinions on the current situation. Better/Veteran scum players actually try to look like they are contributing, but are really good at hiding the fact that they aren't. Activity can be increased to accommodated this, or excuses can be given for not contributing as much, so it can be somewhat unreliable, but it is still a good hint to work off of. (Especially when you are dealing with older players) The second difference between you and scum is that they know who is scum. Obvious, no? But it has implications that are ridiculously hard to shake. When you are scum, it's really, hard to form opinions on who looks scummy. I don't mean that it's hard to say "Incog looks scummy". I mean that it's hard to actually believe that someone looks/is scum, because you know that they aren't. This is compounded by the fact that you talking to your scum buddies when you otherwise would be going over people's posts trying to figure out who looks scummy. To recap, the things you are looking for are a lack of contribution, and a lack of clear opinions (especially when it comes to the alignment of someone). What does this look like? Well, the lack of contribution for new scum players will look like people posting a lot of one liners and other stuff that shows that they are there, but aren't actually contributing new ideas/opinions to the discussion. If there's a player that's just sitting around posting things like "I agree" or making non-committal statements about the situation, there's a large chance they are doing something else. It makes no sense for a townie to be around posting on the thread all day but not spending time to contribute. As players get better, the lack of contribution becomes harder to spot. Some will disguise it with relevant and helpful information. On the surface it looks like they are helping people out, but if the knowledge is common, then what have they helped with? Nothing. I'm not an advanced scum player by any means and I've not played with any, so I can't inform you as well as I'd like in this area, but ask foolishness if you have more questions. The lack of strong opinions of people is one of my favorite ways to hunt scum, because I know how hard it is to avoid it as scum. It usually manifests itself in contradiction, and will something like this: A player says that Qatol looks really scummy, and then a day later votes Qatol for mayor. When you are scum, you're thinking about what will be beneficial for your team, so you will support a lynch at one point, then forgot that you did, and say something contradictory later. A player says that they have a town read on someone, and then a while later they vote for their lynch without giving a reason for the change of mind. Contradictions like these are awesome when you catch them. Another one: Someone says that the mayor is overrated, and not that powerful, and proceeds to talk about nothing other than the mayor for the next day. The next section is on analysis and arguing/pushing for your target. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 11 2011 07:29 The_Roist wrote: Other notes: My mafia.txt is filling up rather fast, you guys are kind of rude but it makes for an interesting game so I don't mind too much. but its maybe not the best first impression on real first timers... THIS DR.H. THIS is what I was talking about. I don't care if you have a plan. We are already looking at a huge inactives list. Thank god we have a few replacements, but for the love of the TLMafia community, stop being so negative! | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 11 2011 07:33 GMarshal wrote: Kav, are you aware that there is a guide that pretty much covers that? Also I hate to say this, but that is a major example of a noncontributing post that looks like a fucking huge wall of text imo, because it is actualy irrelevant to the current situation, it in no way helps the newbies choose a mayor or make any major decisions at the moment. I applaud the effort though, and I agree with the majority of the ideas contained therein Yeah, but I didn't like the guide, and I wanted to show people that I actually care enough that I'll write up a guide out of my own experiences. This both shows my experience, makes me accountable to my skill level, and helps people. Anyone can send a link to a guide. Besides, if I point them out of the thread, it's doing nothing to repair the damage that had been done already. Like I said. I know it looks scummy. I don't care what it looks like if it helps the town. I'm not doing anything that is hurting the town with my plan, unlike Dr.H. Honestly, think about it. We are at 44 pages already. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 11 2011 07:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i'll kill your entire fucking family j/k I know that. I think I've done about as much damage as I can at this point so I'll slink into the shadows and try to play cool now. i like to shit it up on day 1 to see how people react so I get a better idea of where everyone really stands. The more unreasonable I get, the more unreasonable the mafia gets, but I think now is a good time to cut the act. Thanks! + Show Spoiler + I retract that if you continue | ||
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Kavdragon
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Protactinium Chaoser DrHelevetica Chaoser gets added because he was sheeping behind some really bad ideas, adding to the flames of arguments that shouldn't have ever started, and acting generally scummy. I have no analysis yet, so it still a lowish level read, but it's still a read. Oddly enough, GMarshal has not shown himself to be clearly townie to me, and I'm not sure why. It just seems like he could be repeating his townie meta, or it could just be that I'm really used to it being super obvious that he is town. Not a FoS yet, but something that I think is odd. He usually has plans, and that's strangely missing. You'd think that he'd have them since he's running for mayor. Odd. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I still think you're mafia by the way. This is by no means me kowtowing to you, but this aggressive behavior is no longer working in my favor and I'm sure the mafia have already caught on to what I'm trying to do. So you pressured me all that time, spammed that much, and still didn't get a read on me? W/e. If you're done with the agressive behavior, I'm done yelling at you for it. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: my read is mafia i had that read from the beginning i got some other reads yet that i need to consider more wholly later though, it wasn't fruitless Lol, sorry I meant the right read. Heh. that looks like I planned that now. w/e don't care. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Firstly, this game is about having fun. To have fun you need to get at least a little invested in the game, and you're not going to invest anything in the game by not posting. Post in the thread for a while. Post who you think is town and why, post who you think is mafia and why. Start giving some opinions, and you will become more interested in the game. The more interested you become the more you will participate, the funner it will become. There has been a TON of spam so far, and there have been some rude comments. Both of these are not typical of TL Mafia (Although the last game did have a lot of spam too.) Don't worry about it. Everything in this thread is said like actors on a stage. Nothing is personal, and most people are a lot friendlier out of the thread. So what are you waiting for? Jump in and start posting. As a warning, people don't like it when you post lists/opinions without explaining them. If you give no explinatitions, there's nothing backing up your argument, and it also makes it look like you're hiding something. So just explain yourself and you won't have people breathing down your neck. =D GL all! | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:52 GMarshal wrote: My only worry about you in power kav is that your 3rd party play in insane 2 was so good that Im afraid you could be scum and be getting away with it here. Aidnai was actually pretty spot on about my play. It wasn't that good, infact I knowingly followed all the patterns I had suspected that blacks would follow before the game started. The reason I got away with is was that no one was analyzing. That was town's downfall the entire game. If anyone had bothered to analyse me it would have been obvious. Heck, I even gave the town a list of all the things that they needed to look for to find the rest of the scum team (including myself), and NO ONE bothered to check it. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Protact: tnkted's plan is not good for the town, so why is DoctorHelvetica objecting make him scum? Tnkted's plan was pro-town. Period. When was the last time that you looked at the voting thread? When was the last time you looked at this thread? Posting votes in this thread makes analysis much easier. There is absolutely no down side to it, and a definite up side. Not posting your vote should not be considered a scum tell as much as it should just be frowned upon. But it's not like it's going to be enforced, it's just something that will happen. When people start posting votes in here, people will start looking at people who don't, and ask them why. Stomping on that plan was anti-town, so it's one point in favor of Dr.H being scum. Next: You brushed aside my accusation that you could be red, saying that that applys to anyone. WRONG. You are the only person that has claimed assassin. You truly are a master of the pen, and i admire your ability to write convincingly, but you cannot defeat the logic that It would be worth it to get one mafia into one of the seats, even if they die. One of the easiest ways to do that is to get someone who is good at the game to claim Assassin. Based on that alone, i don't think that you should be considered for office. Lastly, you are correct in assuming that I have not read all, or even two of your games. I didn't have the time to do it, but I'm sure as hell not going to let that stop me from analyzing your play. I've talke to vets who have played with you, so I have do have some idea of your play. To those who say I'm posting stuff that's obvious so that I can say I'm pro town Don't you think that if i were mafia, I'd have realized that since everyone is saying that it's not buying me pro-town points, and stopped doing it? Why would mafia put so much effort into something that has been explained several times as NOT being something that will earn you pro-town points? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
#2 Analyze to Argue: Without good analysis as a strong argument, the best scum hunter in the world can't do anything: He has to be able to convince the town that his target is scum. Once you find your scum, you have to work to lynch him/her. Everyone is green till proven otherwise, and the burden of proof lies on you. Your analysis should includes those posts that are relevant, and good examples of the scummy behavior you are trying to point out. When I'm scum I'll make analyses that quote every single post so that people see a giant wall, and don't actually read the analysis. When you are a townie, that sort of thing is detrimental to your analysis, because you WANT people to read it. When you post your points, be clear as to what you are trying to say, and be concise. Remember, if people don't read it, then you've failed your mission. Don't include posts that don't need to be there. Now. Part of the purpose is to convince people that someone is scum, another part of it is to check your suspicions by looking at the response of the person you just analyzed. When someone is under pressure, they give a lot of information about themselves out through their response. The stronger the pressure, the more information you will get. Because of this, you want to make your argument as strong as possible, and you cannot use words like "probably" or "maybe" when deciding if he's scum. Even if there are no doubts in your mind, don't voice them in your analysis. This will increase the pressure, and give you more of a reaction. Does their reaction confirm your suspicions? If so, continue to pressure. If not, depending on how sure you are, you might want to pressure a little longer, or lay off of it. After your analysis comes up, you can expect a response from the person you are accusing. Look carefully at the argument, and pick it apart, pointing out the fallacies with the defense. Whatever you do, DON'T get drawn into a long drawn out argument. Don't keep arguing the same point, move on to the next one and let the town decide who was right. Always keep in mind that they could be innocent, even if they look really scummy. If they start reacting in a an extremely town like fashion, don't tunnel them. Again, use the reaction as an extra piece of information and re-evaluate the situation. If you've made your case, and the town decided that it wasn't good enough, don't get in a fist fight over it. Wait, and keep a close eye on that person. If they are scum, the will slip up again, and this time you'll be there to catch them. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 12 2011 02:07 Robellicose wrote: Kavdragon:I personally do not have a read on you at all. A lot of people are saying they read you as red. What do you believe in your posts contradicts this heavily? What is your long term plan for this game if you were to become mayor? I don't usually feel the pressure to explain my actions, but in this case I think it will help clear a few things up: (This is a response to a general sentiment that was voiced by Robe ^^) I've been talking to Ver, BC and RoL a lot over the past few games trying to improve my play. I started talking to Foolishness this game. Looking over many of the excellent town players, they all look at the setup and try to figure out what the mafia's strategy will be. I did the same thing. I saw a ton of new players, and a mafia with 4 KP. My immediate thought was that inactivity would be rampant among the newer players, and the mafia would have enough KP to kill of most, if not all the vocal people. With that in mind, I decided that the best course of action would be try to get the new players as involved as possible. To do this, I had to make it as easy as possible for them to get better. Sure, you can point them to another guide, but it's easier if it's in the thread. The players who are going out to read guides are not the problem. It's the players who are too lazy to read the guides that I'm trying to hook. It was my plan. It had problems, I see that now. I didn't anticipate the amount of spam that was thrown around. I didn't build flexability into my plan, to account for things that I should have known I couldn't see. Regardless, I think that the goal was sound. We NEED to get the new players on board with us, or we've already lost the game. That being said, I'll stop posting guides and try to contribute more to the thread now. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On April 12 2011 07:37 aidnai wrote: EBWODP @ Kav: come at me bro You always think I'm scum, regardless. I have posted contributory stuff, I was even the first person to post analysis. I'm unfortunetly not as graced with words as Dr.H is, so he stomped all over me. I still think he's scum. This is my stance on Dr.H: He did a ton of really hyper agressive play at the beginning, and it put many townies off. Quite honestly, I think that this explains why noobs are voting for GMarshal. They don't want Dr.H. Dr.H defended himself saying that his plan was to cause havoc so that he could have more information to analyse. He said that the ends justify the means. This is wrong. If you knock out half the town by stomping on them, just to get better reads that half of the town is less likely to participate. He is increasing his proformance level at the cost of others. This is unacceptable in a situation where mafia can just kill him, and then we have a town with a net loss. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
My Thoughts on the Game First and foremost, the spam needs to come down. We need to be able to read through this thread to scum hunt, and the amount of spam is making it really hard to read. Obviously a good idea, right? So why is everyone still spamming? A few people on the top of my spam list are RedFF (For posting a lot of lists pointing at people, and asking tons of questions of people, but not actually contributing as much) Gmarshal (For posting more than is healthy. I know that you have a lot of things to say, but when you have that much to say you need to learn how to condense it. You don't have to reply to every single person when almost everyone is talking to you.) Dr.H (Not bad like RedFF, but in the similar vein as GMarshal, I think that you can condense what you are saying. If there are three people who say something scummy, wait a bit, then put your responses into the same post or something.) I don't think anyone is used to having 50 pages to analyse by day one. I'm certainly not. I've often been told that it's useless to analyse on day one, and I've disagreed with it before. As daunting a task as it is, I agree with Dr.H that there's plenty of material to get started on. Sure it won't be as reliable as the material that we will have by day 3/4, but there's no better time to start analyzing than NOW. If you wait, it won't happen, so I'm going to ask EVERYONE, even those who are bad at it, to try thier hand. By this time, the only people who don't have scum reads are scum. Take someone who you think is scummy, and analyse them. Right now my main concern will be inactive/lurker types, because they are the higher priority for lynching. | ||
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On April 12 2011 07:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: ^correct what else does it do "EVERYONE NEEDS TO SCUMHUNT RALLY AROUND MY GREAT IDEALS WHILE I CONTRIBUTE NOTHING" i remember that dudes name. Radfield! Read his posts in Salem Mafia! That's exactly what kav's doing rn Meta would really help your read. If you will remember, Salem was the first game i played. I watched it a ton because it was one of, if not aidnai's first games as well. I was interested. Radfield's posting was something that made me think he was town, because I was a noob at the game. After I learned that he was mafia, that became the number one scum tell for me. When I'm scum, I'm extremely careful not to post stuff like that. Call wifom all you want, but this is not how I play scum. I'm careful to avoid obvious scum tells like this. In the event that I am actually lynched, I hope everyone remembers my analysis of Dr.H, and the way that I predicted mafia would act. The next step after alienating new players, destroying the heath of the thread, and getting someone into the mayor seat is to remove the analysts. I believe that Dr.H is a good enough player to read me correctly, even if he is missing some of my meta. It has also been said that we shouldn't lynch veterans day one. I've held this position in, and out of game threads. Protact actually quoted my post a while ago where I was talking about how people expect veterans to play really well, when it's an unfair assessment of thier play. | ||
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On April 12 2011 08:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote: you are my number one suspect and i am lynching you if i am elected. that is all. Well then. Best get cracking while I can, Eh? | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kenpachi Kenpachi has ten posts, non of which say anything, all but two are not even related to the game. This looks like scum to me, but Kenpachi looks like scum ususally. I know others have good meta on him, so I'd like to hear from you. He's not putting any effort into looking like town, and he's not acting like a frustrated townie. Based on what I know, he's following his usual town play. Useless. (That's not even being harsh. Take a look at his posts.) ilovejonn Ilovejonn has only five posts, one of which is somewhat informative: On April 11 2011 00:11 ilovejonn wrote: If I appear to be inactive, that's because I am really sick atm. I've read 10+ pages and right now GMarshal and Protactinium are top of my list for mayor. However as there is no voting thread yet for whatever reason :S, I'm going to stay in bed and rest until the thread is up and my voting is required. I also like Protact's posts a lot more than GM. Yes, GM is easy to read, but I agree with Protact that he isn't superbly great at analysis. Protact's each and every post was filled with so much content, meeting quality over quantity in my eyes, and gets to the point without beating around the bush. As a town leader (yes, I know his win-condition is not town) and an analyst, I would much more likely be in favor of Protact. I believe even by having him alive in the early game while he still feels like siding with town, he can create a much ideal environment for the town. At least his posts motivate me to play and post better. Also, sure if you think me being sick is an excuse, but I just wanted to get this out there in the case I really cannot post due to illness. I'm already trying my best to keep up with this thread by at least posting Day 1. This one post is town oriented. Yes, I disagree with his voting protact, but he brings new reasons for it, and they are protown reasons. Not much to make a read off of, but I would say that he looks town. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
While I started work on inactives, it appears that I will be the first to be lynched. As such, and inactive will not be lynched. So my priorities have changed to getting out analysis on players that I have the scummiest reads from. RedFF is first up. | ||
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On April 12 2011 09:23 DarthThienAn wrote: DrH, the only problem I have with you being mayor is that you're guaranteeing us no accountability. The "I do what I want" attitude as mayor won't help us win the game. Sure, you dodge the influence of the mafia, but that also means you're relying solely on yourself to win the game... This. Did you learn ANYTHING from salem, Dr.H? We relied on a few and it killed us. This has been brought up time and time again. We cannot rely on a few people, you have to get the town involved. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Not a good idea to vote for the person who is set on lynching you unless you want to die. | ||
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On April 12 2011 09:33 Conversion wrote: I don't like DocH. ##vote DoctorHelvetica Scum. >  | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 12 2011 09:47 GMarshal wrote: I'm torn between AirbladeOrange, OriginalName, M0nster and whatever the trolls name is. Probably AO though, on my gut, as some player around here are so fond of saying I'd lynch OriginalName over Airblade. Day one reads are hard, so lynching the person who is less active is a good idea. My take, anyways. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On April 11 2011 03:46 redFF wrote: Protactinium is the only person that has impressed me so far and the only person i can tell is not scum, that said, votes are subject to change. This is a sentiment that RedFF takes very quickly. He trusts that Protact is town right from the get go. That is NOT a townie reaction, nor is a noob reaction. A new player who is townie would be quick to question things like this, and while he may eventually come to the same conclusion, there's no way that a townie would reach certainty this quickly. His certainty betrays hidden knowledge, knowledge that only scum would have. On April 11 2011 03:51 redFF wrote: Yeah Doch seems to be posting a lot without really saying much, whilst being overly aggressive to people with little reasoning. FOS: DoctorHelvetica Up to this point (and beyond for a while) he has displayed the same characteristics that he is condemning Dr.H for. Your own FoS back onto you. You are trying to look like you are contributing, and it's not working. + Show Spoiler + On April 11 2011 04:56 redFF wrote: I compiled a little list on inactives/lurkers Metalface-no posts since sign up Ream- no posts since game started Lattrommi-is he even playing??? was signed up by someone else and hasn't posted TranceStorm- lurking hardcore lemonwalrus- hasnt posted since day 1 began milkyst- no posts since sign up The_Roist- just posted above me for the first time XD Jaminz- no post since sign up DarthThienAn- no posts since day 1 M0nsterChef- hasn't posted since day 1, has 14 posts so could just not play. Serejai- no posts since sign up He complies a list of inactives, but it's early in the day. No one needs to see the inactives that early. Another of many ploys to look like he's contributing. A few posts later he complains about everyone ignoring this out of place list, and posts it again. It's funny, because this fits Ver's profiling for a new scum player almost exactly. Right down to the out of place list. (See: Ver's analysis of XXX) On April 11 2011 05:11 redFF wrote: So if DrH gets hit night one we have a pretty good mafia list. So if [redFF] flip scum we have a pretty good innocent list. It's an odd thing to say when you've FoS'd him not too long ago. Why would you guess that mafia would shoot someone who is scum? On April 11 2011 05:38 redFF wrote: btw this is fun as fuck and i will be playing tl mafia for quite a while ^^ I actually consider this a scum slip. Mafia have the funnest time day one. Townies are usually interested, but not really having fun till they start getting near the lynch deadline. But perhaps that's just me. + Show Spoiler + On April 11 2011 06:38 redFF wrote: List of inactives Metalface-no posts since sign up Ream- no posts since game started Lattrommi-is he even playing??? was signed up by someone else and hasn't posted TranceStorm- lurking hardcore lemonwalrus- hasnt posted since day 1 began milkyst- no posts since sign up The_Roist- just posted above me for the first time XD Jaminz- no post since sign up DarthThienAn- no posts since day 1 M0nsterChef- hasn't posted since day 1, has 14 posts so could just not play. Serejai- no posts since sign up Thin we have found a newbie mafia? The list returns! Still out of place. Also, lol at his guess that the mafia are all found in that. He quotes this again to bring attention to the list yet again, and to FoS M0nster. He still hasn't given any opinions. He's tunneling this inactive list, and bringing it up over and over without even bothering to update it. This reaks of scum. He later slightly modifies his plan to tunnel those mostly inactive people that voted for Gmarshal. Then we have this contradiction pointed out by Coag. Refer to my guide if you don't get why this is scummy. On April 11 2011 22:06 redFF wrote: If ON flips red it confirms basically everyone thought of as red so far as red. If he flips green(highly unlikely) Then it clears a shit ton of people and we have a few people who would look very red, myself included. I think ON is the lynch which would give us the most information, regardless of how he flips. On April 12 2011 07:58 redFF wrote: I get your point about spamming, i will try to tone it down. Sorry if I'm spamming a lot, just trying to learn/catch scum. That said, this post doesn't really have any content. Agrees with my sentiment that there should be less spam, and then proceeds to post more frequently than he has all game. Wtf mate? RedFF has been tunneling, spamming, and not contributed to the thread yet. He has posted that he thinks that Protact and dr.H are good candidates, but simply mirrors others arguments when he gives his reasons. He has yet to really come up with any good reasoning that is his own. He fits a clear pattern for new scum. RedFF is RedFF | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
DR.H's play has been detrimental to the town. He is Scum. DR.H said he would only run for mayor if he was mafia. He is Scum. DR.H said that the mayor was a stupid role, and he wished it wasn't here. He is scum. And this: On April 12 2011 10:38 Coagulation wrote: JUST SAYING FOR ALL YOU NEWBS GOING "LOL DOCH IS PLAYING PRO TOWN" The mafia has done a wonderful job of manipulating town. First, take out one of the better candidates for mayor my arguing him into the ground, and calling him scum. Next stomp on townies so they just sheep to someone who isn't Dr.H. Next, point out how everyone is sheeping GMarshal, and get everyone to vote Dr.H. Last, lynch the guy who calls Dr.H scum. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 12 2011 11:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote: green ! = correct I completely agree. However, my reputation as a scum hunter, when combined with the fact that I'm green adds weight to what I was saying earlier, because I am freed from any suspicion. Green = Right intentions. My scum reads right now are Dr.H Protactinium RedFF (Haven't read his defense yet, but I'll try to update this based off of that.) Chaoser (I haven't done analysis on him, so this is just a read.) Oh, and as far as my conspiracy theories go, I don't think that any of them are fully right. I think that at the very least parts of them are. A lot of the time things will just fall into the mafia's hands, and they don't actually try to do them. My reads/analysis on Protact and Dr.H stand. | ||
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Kavdragon
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This is based off of posts that stated obvious facts in an atempt to make not obvious things obvious to newer players. This IS helpful to the town. I will say it again, it is pro-town. It does NOT mean that I am town because I post it however. Scum can say stuff like that too. It does NOT mean that I am scum though. To this point in the game, those posts are the reason people have called me scum. However, the stances I have taken, against Protact and Dr.H, are both definetly pro-town. Even Dr.H adimited that I had a good point when I told him to cool down with his posting. An Assassin in office has some upsides, but not enough to cover the down sides/risks. (Like a high likelihood of the assassin actually being scum) I have played pro town this game. I'm not referring to my posts for noobs. I'm referring to my stances against Dr.H's aggressive and alienating play, my overall direction and goals for the town, and to some extent my stance against Protact. I'm not 100% sure that GMarshal is town, but right now, it's him, Dr.H or Protact. That still not enough people running to keep Dr.H and Protact out of office. I'm still running for mayor. Laugh at me if you want, but look at my play, think for yourselves, and you'll see that it's not a ridiculous idea. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On April 12 2011 13:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm purple on airbladeorange. I wish we could PM each other but could you post a full case for him please? He's one of the few players I haven't analysed fully and if your case is good I'd consider lynching him over Bdar. Oh man, I would LOVE to see your "full" analyses of everyone else Dr.H. I know that I may not have been playing the most obviously pro town game per say, but there's no f'ing way that after analyzing everyone, that I am your #1 scum read. I know you're better than that. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On April 12 2011 13:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Again you contributed nothing with this post. The only goal of this post is to make yourself look as pro-town as possible when in fact I stated I was considering NOT lynching you, when most people have been supporting you, and I've fallen behind in the mayoral race. I find it funny that you said those kind of posts you immediately realized are the best scumtell and that you'd stop doing them and start contributing, and now you're back with this kind of BS. It's really obvious kav. You're missing the point entirely, and I did contribute with it. I said I'm not happy with two of the three candidates that we have. Since we have to pick two, I'm going to run because I don't want you OR Protact in office. | ||
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On April 12 2011 13:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Yeah you're the most obvious followed by Barundar You're the only 2 I feel really good about after Day 1. On my purple list (leaning toward mafia/assassin) i have coagulation chaoser redFF and metalface I didn't ask for your scum list, or your purple list. You very clearly said that you had "full" analyses on almost every player. I call BS. I want to see it. Not a list of your reads, Analysis. You are talking about lynching a player when you haven't done analysis. No one who lynches without analysis should be mayor. | ||
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On April 12 2011 13:52 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Well it's because you don't really post anything else and now you only show up out of NOWHERE to defend yourself as soon as your name is brought up again. That doesn't look good for you, just sayin. But kavdragon is the real problem here I dare you to lynch me. You are so sure that I'm mafia, eh? I know you won't. You know why? Because you're mafia. There's no need to lynch me and draw suspicion on yourself when you can just kill me tonight. | ||
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On April 12 2011 13:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I promise I will lynch you if I am elected mafia and if I go back I encourage the town to lynch me for it. Unvote: GMarshal Vote: Dr.Helvetica I do this because I know that I don't have the time or the skill to argue with Dr.H. He's really good with words. Don't let him out of this one, town. Lynch him tomorrow. | ||
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Dr.Helvetica is Scum. Lynch him. | ||
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On April 12 2011 14:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote: also this is a classic mafia technique meant to fool town into pussying out of a lynch "well if he was mafia he would just shut up and die right?" nah. if you're mafia you insist to the bitter end that the person who wagoned you is scum and that when you die and flip green/blue town better lynch them. because it sows seeds of doubt. it's a technique that a real townie wouldn't use, they know that just becuase someone got a wrong read it doesn't mean they are scum and very rarely use this kind of chainsaw/OMGUS defense at the last minute Yo. You got elected. Are you going to lynch me? Go on. Confirm me as town. You fail at reads if you still think I'm mafia. But you don't think I'm mafia, because I'm not on your team. | ||
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CubEdIn the Nosy Neighbor is now dead. Second, CubEdIn is indeed back, replacing Latrommi. What is up with all these people dropping I don't even. LOL. Can I come in a replace someone too? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + He can't because it's a trick question. People who flip always flip as random town roles. Everyone is on their own mafia team. Also, the people who haven't posted since the day post aren't "lurking" they are actually dead. BB just can't actually tell you guys without telling you that there's more KP than players in the game. Edit: Join me on the deadperson's IRC! (You too tnkted!) | ||
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On April 14 2011 03:42 Lemonwalrus wrote: If that was at me...I'm not dead yet. But when I am I will. It was directed at Cubedin, but I guess he's not dead. On April 14 2011 03:38 BrownBear wrote: ...had had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the game before he died, so it was as though he hadn't played... Totally describes me. Sub please. + Show Spoiler + (Ok, I'll try to stop now.) | ||
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