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On September 06 2010 20:37 Ace wrote:
As you can see vx70GTOJudgexv was originally on the Scum team. He had to bow out so I randomly selected a Townie to replace him which was jspazz. Unfortunately for Scum jspazz went afk and luckily Subversion was around to replace in.
There were a lot of unlucky breaks for Scum + some strong Town players which got them caught. The first night zeks was actually going to shoot Fishball, but switched to Subversion. Either way he was hitting Scum.
Scum not using all their roles on players 2,3, and 5 was weird. They only shot at zeks and left the other 2 alone.
Southwarea did the right thing ringing the bell about a traitor in the top ranks, but did the wrong thing and accused Hessmyrr out of no where. Still no idea how anyone thought that was a good lynch.
Scum in the latter half of the game kept hitting unconfirmed townies tightening the noose on themselves. If the last 2 days are anything to go by some of the town still didn't have a clue. Should have shot everyone on chaoser's list except ~Opz~ and kept it going.
Townies lying (hi ~Opz~!) but citi.zen waited before outing him and chaoser's list saved the town from a very bad situation. Then again Scum shot chaoser (???) and confirmed 5 players. If this didn't happen and chaoser lived there would have been lots of leeway to make trouble.
A word about roles: For some reason there is a fixation on CV being the best role. That really depends on what else is being picked but if I had confidence in my team to escape lynches I wouldn't worry about the CV. If it's being controlled by the town then that means you probably won't get shot till it's too late. As Scum and town there are way better roles. The way the game was set up was that there were multiple options between 3 sets : Protective, Investigative, and Killing. You don't need CV and in fact no matter what side you're on if you get one of the upper tier slots it's usually in your best interest to pick whatever you want. Submitting yourselves to other people's authority isn't exactly a good thing early in the game. That said Scum is far more dangerous picking a doctor, roleblocker, role cop, Day vigi combination than having a CV. An extra kill isn't better than the ability to stop yourself from getting NK'd and stopping town roles. Take your role cop and find investigative roles and let your Day Vigi shoot the scummiest Townie. Let the town worry about whether or not the CV is legit, if he aims for one of you just RB him or med prot the target.
Lastly the Scum pretty much let the town get too comfortable with each other. After Radfield died, citi.zen and Pandain just rolled over everyone in the game and started putting pieces together. There was no strong Scum intervention aside from Fishball and it was just a matter of time. No one had a solid read on him in the mid-game but he was going to die soon from process of elimination. This game shows that no matter what happens if the town is very active and putting things together someone has to step up and shut it down. So many opportunities to cause havoc but I'm not sure if anyone was active enough to read the thread.
As for Bad Santa I'll probably remove it next game. Chaoser got very lucky picking 5 townies, but then Scum shot him so that made it even worse. LSB played a hell of a Traitor this game, surviving way
longer than I though he would. citi.zen and Radfield were most likely the town MVPs this game.
I was honestly hoping you would put in an extra mafia member this game. Both in this game and the last I felt the town didn't play very well, killed a bunch of townies, and still managed to win over a mafia team who played better. I guess the traitor fills this void a little, but I still would have liked to see 1 more mafia member.
I thought the mafia should have 100% just left the top of the list alone entirely other than Fishball's Bullet Bill ability. The town had devoted most of that part of the list to denying roles from the mafia, so the mafia weren't killing off any super dangerous roles for them (except Bad Santa due to some really bad luck for the mafia). On top of that, south started a witch hunt which set the town in motion killing all of the people in the top of the list, hunting for a player who might not even be mafia. They were looking for 1 player out of 2-6, so a 1 in 5 chance of hitting mafia. They actually would have had a better chance of getting a mafia/traitor by just lynching players randomly (1 in 4).
I actually liked the hit on JeeJee. The scum knew there was a medic/jack out there and they had it narrowed down to one of a few players. Other than that, I agree. The hit on Chaoser was probably the worst hit of the game. The mafia should have known that they would be confirming a bunch of players. That hit should have been put on someone on the list.
I don't think it's that CV is the best role overall. It definitely isn't from the town's point of view. However, the mafia is MUCH stronger if they get 2 KP. They just have a problem ending the game as it stands right now. So there is a lot of value for the town in denying the mafia the use of that role. More roles that had the potential to kill more than 1 player would help things a bit I think, but they might be hard to balance. A common theme in almost every mafia game is that the town will learn more as the game goes along. It is almost impossible for a mafia to keep the town from confirming a few players as most likely innocent. And that is a big deal as the game starts to wind down. However, it hasn't helped that the mafia had the top pick this game and the #2 pick last game, both slots assigned the CV. That is basically just a wasted role for the mafia. They don't want to be seen as going against the town, but with that role, they will only be able to go against the town consensus 1 time. It is just a hard position to be in.
I agree that the mafia didn't incite enough suspicion. In particular, I think that Fishball should have stirred something up earlier in the game. The town was definitely going down the wrong path early, but they managed to get a few lucky breaks and suddenly they're going in the right direction and the mafia has no foundation set up to lead them in the wrong direction.
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On September 07 2010 04:16 Pandain wrote:
Part of what I was struggling with is how much to consider "what makes sense." For example, it didn't make sense for South to make it up. But does that mean we should automatically trust him? If he HAD been mafia and we lynched LSB that would be a 3-1 trade, pretty good misleading like the whole town and having them do mislynches for 3 days.
Actually, I thought it would have been a decently clever move for the mafia to make. They knew that none of their members were in 2-6. The odds are worse of finding a mafia there than just lynching randomly. If the mafia have no faith in their ability to lead the town off course, why not try for that claim? It would have been a lot stronger at pick #7 or #8 though. Regardless, this is why you always lynch the guy who makes a claim like that first. You don't follow up on some random accusation until after you confirm that the story is true.
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Yeah every time darth is mafia, its like an aura of sillyness. Lets kill such and such and make it easier for town. First yellow and now chaoser. WHEN WILL YOU LEARN!?
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On September 07 2010 00:33 citi.zen wrote:
GG everyone.
LSB did well even with some early pressure on him, and it was an interesting call on his part to pick traitor high up in the draft - it kept the town busy for a long time.
Radfield - as always impressive early game hard work. Sin, great job finishing this up.
Ace, thanks for hosting & patiently answering the many-many questions. I think the band santa turned out a bit better in this game than it would in general. Had there been any red on Chaoser's list Opz may well have gotten lynched for lying about being the tracker. It may be a role that adds a bit too much variance, not sure if it can be handled by changing the number of people on the list or not.
If you have any ideas about changes to any role I'm welcome to hear it. Next time I'm planning on swapping in and out roles again.
@Radfield: I felt so bad for Scum when zeks actually ended up killing Subversion and outting Fishball. That's 2 games in a row an SK has accidentally got Scum in trouble early game ^_^. Also your plan was a decent extension of Qatol's plan from PYP 1. I guess with an established starting plan whoever rolls Scum next time will need to think of ways to avoid being forced into picks.
Short word on Alignment Cop: It's still a good role. Even if you aren't sure about your sanity you just need to get off 2 investigations and live to Day 3. You reveal your checks and if you die your sanity will be flipped. Even if the 2 investigations turn out the same alignment it's better than not revealing anything.
@Qatol: I actually told Fishball that was a huge mistake. I meant to have 5 Mafia but with the early chaos with players in the game I forgot to add in the 5th one v_v. Also agreed on your points about CV. As Scum if everyone in the game knows you have the roll well there goes your magical 2KP running wild. Then again if you get CV it's probably in your best interest to convince the town you're shooting scummy players and hope it's none of your guys :D .
@Pandain: If I was playing I might have believed Southrarea but realized it's pretty much a crapshoot on Day 1 to find out who in the top 5 players is lying. Once he accused Hessmyrr though I would have gotten super suspicious. No way a guy who claimed to pick traitor and is now pretty much Vanilla could have a good read on Hessmyrr that fast.
Also there were a ton of questions I forgot to add to the FAQ. Anything that needs to be added let me know for the next game.
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On September 07 2010 05:10 Ace wrote:
Short word on Alignment Cop: It's still a good role. Even if you aren't sure about your sanity you just need to get off 2 investigations and live to Day 3. You reveal your checks and if you die your sanity will be flipped. Even if the 2 investigations turn out the same alignment it's better than not revealing anything.
You have changed my view on this game :O
*worships Ace*
That makes EVERYTHING so much simpler.
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On September 07 2010 05:10 Ace wrote:
Also there were a ton of questions I forgot to add to the FAQ. Anything that needs to be added let me know for the next game.
Could you please put in the OP exactly what the variations on the Doctor and Alignment Cop mean? I tend to forget if I don't think about it really carefully. Longer post talking about the roles in depth coming in a little bit.
Also this is just wrong I think:
*note: In the case of ties it doesn't matter how many people picked the same #. If 3 people picked [3][*] and 2 people picked [7][*] where * is any arbitrary number 3s go before 7s. The order isn't reset AGAIN per tie.
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i think this was it, i asked on the first page cause id never seen sanity before lol
On August 05 2010 12:22 youngminii wrote:/in Sanity is pretty much a balancing tool. There's 4/5 sanities for Cop/Doc Sane Cop: All checks are accurate (bar certain role qualities ie. GF) Insane Cop: All checks are the opposite of what they should be Naive Cop: All checks are innocent Paranoid Cop: All checks are guilty For Docs it's similar Sane Doc: All protections are normal Insane Doc: 50% chance of killing the target Naive Doc: All protections do nothing Weak Doc: Doc dies if protecting a non-townie And there's one I've seen used but it's quite rare... I think it was in a bastard mod marathon game  CPR Doc: Doc kills target if target is not attacked
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@Qatol:
So in the case of say 2 people picking [7][?] but 3 people picking [4][?] you think the 7s should go before the 4s? Basically the more unique your # is the higher your draft position. Right now if three people pick 4 as their first number but two people pick 7 then the 4s act first.
If that isn't it what's supposed to change?
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On September 07 2010 07:35 Ace wrote:
@Qatol:
So in the case of say 2 people picking [7][?] but 3 people picking [4][?] you think the 7s should go before the 4s? Basically the more unique your # is the higher your draft position. Right now if three people pick 4 as their first number but two people pick 7 then the 4s act first.
If that isn't it what's supposed to change?
I feel it should be the more unique your number (thats actually what I thought it was.).
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On September 07 2010 07:35 Ace wrote:
@Qatol:
So in the case of say 2 people picking [7][?] but 3 people picking [4][?] you think the 7s should go before the 4s? Basically the more unique your # is the higher your draft position. Right now if three people pick 4 as their first number but two people pick 7 then the 4s act first.
If that isn't it what's supposed to change?
Oh I didn't read it that way. I suck at reading apparently. However, I do think what the sanities mean should be in the OP somewhere.
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As for role balance, I'll break them up into a few categories (only looking at roles present in this game's OP):
+ Show Spoiler [Roles selected in both games] +
Compulsive vigilante
I think I've already made my thoughts known on this, but it's a really important role for the mafia. They have trouble ending the game without KP and this role is the only role which gives more than 1 extra KP (other than Inventor in PYP1 or Bad Santa in PYP2).
Meth Man
One of the strongest role the town has. I'm surprised the mafia haven't made more of an effort to defensively pick this just to keep it out of town hands. In my opinion, it is probably a bit too strong, especially since it takes out Serial Killers or Mafia.
Day Vigilante
I think this is a nice role. Well balanced and useful no matter which side gets it.
Copy Cat
I think this is actually a deceptively weak role unless players scheme to make it stronger. However, when it is strong, it is really really strong. Could be the source of a pretty nasty combo (in the twilight before someone is lynched, day vig the compulsive vigi to give the mafia a hidden compulsive vigi and still allow the mafia to waste the day 1 lynch). But as long as the town doesn't forget about it, it gives the town something interesting to do early.
Doctor
Standard role. I don't remember what Naive or Weak mean, but I'm really glad you have 2. I think this role should be picked more often.
+ Show Spoiler [Roles selected in one game] +
Role Cop
Very strong role for either side. Has some use for the SK as well, but it is a lot weaker in my opinion because they just don't want to run into a defensive role or a medic. If the person who claims this role isn't mafia, they are likely to take a hit relatively quickly because there are some roles which benefit the town more than the mafia or vice versa.
Tracker
I don't think this one is very strong because if the mafia are playing correctly, most of them will get the roles they were trying to pick. In that case, the tracker becomes a lot less useful unless you're trying to track down something goofy like the roleblocker.
Floridian
This role only becomes useful in the absolute end game. I still don't think it is a very good role, but Floridian SK is decent. I'd still rather have something like Day Vigi or Jack if I were them though.
Mason
Good role for anyone who can play well outside of the thread.
Pardoner
Solid role mid-late game for the mafia. Any other use will probably just get an innocent/SK lynched because of how TL mafia works. I think I'd rather have more KP as mafia again though.
Martyr
I never really liked this role much because to a certain extent, the mafia and SK still get their kill.
Watcher
Other than some funny stories from bum, this role didn't seem to have much of a purpose in this format either because even if you watch someone good, you just don't get that much information. If bum had been a doctor instead of a watcher, he would have gotten 2 protections instead. Far more useful.
Bullet Bill
Very strong town role as things stand right now. The town doesn't like to pick roles that shoot, so this almost becomes an alignment check. I like it for the SK as well because he can use it to help tweak the mafia-town balance in an attempt to make the game last longer.
Bad Santa
I don't think this role is as strong as it appeared to be in this game. First of all, chaoser got VERY lucky and picked 5 townies for his list. If the mafia had been on the list, this role would have probably been a lot weaker. Maybe tweak this role a bit and assign the list to Bad Santa in the future, ensuring that there is always at least 1 innocent and 1 mafia on the list?
Traitor
Interesting role. Really the threat of this role does a lot to keep the town busy. Be mindful that this role is in the game if you increase the number of mafia.
+ Show Spoiler [Roles never selected in either game] +
Look hard at these and maybe consider tweaking some of these roles.
Alignment Cop
I agree that this role is underused. I think it's the threat of being Paranoid (and thus useless) that bothers people. Otherwise, it is a very strong role. I like it the way it is.
Bulletproof
I think this one is underused because of the presence of the Meth Man. Why make yourself immune to night hits when you can take down the person who hit you? At the very least, I think there should be 2 of these in the pool so people have some more security about taking this role.
Jack Of All Trades
I am honestly shocked that this role is never selected. I think it is one of the strongest roles in the game, yet it keeps getting passed over. If anything, it is a little too strong.
Veteran
Another really weak role (in comparison). It is 100% worse than the bulletproof, and even that role isn't seeing much use thanks to Meth Man. I would either cut it, make it stronger by giving it another ability (maybe you survive the first time you are lynched? - makes it better for SK to pick too), or put a bunch of them in the pool so you are basically assured of getting a role if you pick Veteran.
God Father
I agree that this role needed to be made stronger from PYP1. I like the changes you made with the role, and I see it as relatively on par with Vengeful Player. However, I would like to see it confuse a few more information roles, at the very least the Bullet Bill role. The biggest problem with this role is there is just no reason for non-mafia to take it.
Role blocker
Another role I can't understand why people aren't taking. This one is really good for almost everyone. Does it disable Meth Man?
Vengeful Player
KP role, but it isn't as strong as Day Vigi. It should probably see more use. I wouldn't change this much.
Prince(ss) of Darkness
I haven't really thought through the ramifications of this role enough yet. It seems like it would be situational though. By the way, why is it Prince(ss) but not Meth (Wo)Man?
I think there are just too many roles in the game right now. I think some of these overlapping ones need to be cut, or at least make the roles closer in power so it isn't quite so obvious which ones should be picked.
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Yes, and get rid of the 2nd number bit for the draft. Using it as a tie-breaker is moot, as then what if the 2nd numbers tie? Eventually you need a method of choosing independent of the chosen numbers (i.e. dice roll in this game), so why bother with even having more than 1 tie breaker.
I also like the idea of the most unique number (higher being better naturally).
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On September 07 2010 08:21 SiNiquity wrote:
Yes, and get rid of the 2nd number bit for the draft. Using it as a tie-breaker is moot, as then what if the 2nd numbers tie? Eventually you need a method of choosing independent of the chosen numbers (i.e. dice roll in this game), so why bother with even having more than 1 tie breaker.
I also like the idea of the most unique number (higher being better naturally).
nah I need the second number because without it everyone will pick low numbers and pray for a good role. Picking 2 different numbers is easier than picking 1 different number. From now on I'll make sure that in the case of ties it's broken by uniqueness before order. So in this example:
[7][3]
[7][7]
[5][7]
[5][6]
[5][6]
Even though both sets have ties (7 and 5) I'll push 7 ahead in the draft order since that is more unique than 5. Then the 7s get resolved the normal way (3 before 7) and the 5s go through another unique tie break. In this case [5][7] is more unique than [5][6] so it goes before both of them. Then the two [5][6] players are resolved by dice roll. Thoughts?
On September 07 2010 08:00 Qatol wrote:
As for role balance, I'll break them up into a few categories (only looking at roles present in this game's OP):
+ Show Spoiler [Roles selected in both games] +
Compulsive vigilante
I think I've already made my thoughts known on this, but it's a really important role for the mafia. They have trouble ending the game without KP and this role is the only role which gives more than 1 extra KP (other than Inventor in PYP1 or Bad Santa in PYP2).
Actually this game the Mafia just failed a couple of hits. I'm really wary of giving them more than 1KP though.
Meth Man
One of the strongest role the town has. I'm surprised the mafia haven't made more of an effort to defensively pick this just to keep it out of town hands. In my opinion, it is probably a bit too strong, especially since it takes out Serial Killers or Mafia.
Indeed. I'm leaning taking this out of the next game so far.
Day Vigilante
I think this is a nice role. Well balanced and useful no matter which side gets it.
Copy Cat
I think this is actually a deceptively weak role unless players scheme to make it stronger. However, when it is strong, it is really really strong. Could be the source of a pretty nasty combo (in the twilight before someone is lynched, day vig the compulsive vigi to give the mafia a hidden compulsive vigi and still allow the mafia to waste the day 1 lynch). But as long as the town doesn't forget about it, it gives the town something interesting to do early.
Yes this role is very swingy which is the way I hoped it would work out ^_^
Doctor
Standard role. I don't remember what Naive or Weak mean, but I'm really glad you have 2. I think this role should be picked more often.
Naive just always fails protection. Weak is the one that dies if protecting an anti-town player if Doc is Town aligned. Almost broken during end game scenarios or an outted Doc calling his/her protections.
+ Show Spoiler [Roles selected in one game] +
Role Cop
Very strong role for either side. Has some use for the SK as well, but it is a lot weaker in my opinion because they just don't want to run into a defensive role or a medic. If the person who claims this role isn't mafia, they are likely to take a hit relatively quickly because there are some roles which benefit the town more than the mafia or vice versa.
Tracker
I don't think this one is very strong because if the mafia are playing correctly, most of them will get the roles they were trying to pick. In that case, the tracker becomes a lot less useful unless you're trying to track down something goofy like the roleblocker.
The tracker has to work the way it currently does since if the town doesn't land either cop their next best chance is the tracker (ignoring the new roles). I'm thinking if I want ROLES to take precedence again next game. If they don't Tracker is probably better than both cops. With role precedence Scum or SK can pick passive roles and be safe from Tracker and Watcher.
Floridian
This role only becomes useful in the absolute end game. I still don't think it is a very good role, but Floridian SK is decent. I'd still rather have something like Day Vigi or Jack if I were them though.
Depends on the situation but I think it's a role good for SK and Scum trying to lay low. In the current ruleset you'd show up passive to Tracker, and if you can manipulate the vote enough and early hidden vote, a townie can mistakenly hammer (majority lynch) and you can have fun watching the blame game ^_^
Mason
Good role for anyone who can play well outside of the thread.
Pardoner
Solid role mid-late game for the mafia. Any other use will probably just get an innocent/SK lynched because of how TL mafia works. I think I'd rather have more KP as mafia again though.
Martyr
I never really liked this role much because to a certain extent, the mafia and SK still get their kill.
Watcher
Other than some funny stories from bum, this role didn't seem to have much of a purpose in this format either because even if you watch someone good, you just don't get that much information. If bum had been a doctor instead of a watcher, he would have gotten 2 protections instead. Far more useful.
It's the only role in the game that can tell the Town how many Mafia are in the game. I think it's just decent where it is right now.
Bullet Bill
Very strong town role as things stand right now. The town doesn't like to pick roles that shoot, so this almost becomes an alignment check. I like it for the SK as well because he can use it to help tweak the mafia-town balance in an attempt to make the game last longer.
Yea this is an ok role. I think I'll keep it around for next game.
Bad Santa
I don't think this role is as strong as it appeared to be in this game. First of all, chaoser got VERY lucky and picked 5 townies for his list. If the mafia had been on the list, this role would have probably been a lot weaker. Maybe tweak this role a bit and assign the list to Bad Santa in the future, ensuring that there is always at least 1 innocent and 1 mafia on the list?
This is actually the role I might take out. 2 cops, tracker, watcher, BB - thats 5 investigation roles. I think BS adds too much. If not this role than most likely Tracker is out.
Traitor
Interesting role. Really the threat of this role does a lot to keep the town busy. Be mindful that this role is in the game if you increase the number of mafia.
+ Show Spoiler [Roles never selected in either game] +
Look hard at these and maybe consider tweaking some of these roles.
Alignment Cop
I agree that this role is underused. I think it's the threat of being Paranoid (and thus useless) that bothers people. Otherwise, it is a very strong role. I like it the way it is.
Bulletproof
I think this one is underused because of the presence of the Meth Man. Why make yourself immune to night hits when you can take down the person who hit you? At the very least, I think there should be 2 of these in the pool so people have some more security about taking this role.
Good point. Meth man is going to get axed at this point. Definitely won't have 2 BPs though. 1 Bulletproof Townie is usually hard enough to deal with.
Jack Of All Trades
I am honestly shocked that this role is never selected. I think it is one of the strongest roles in the game, yet it keeps getting passed over. If anything, it is a little too strong.
Hmm it's either "just ok" to "insanely good". It really gets super strong if an innocent Alignment Cop is in the game and comes out before the JOAT uses their investigation. Otherwise it's just plainly solid with a Talk ability and self protection.
Veteran
Another really weak role (in comparison). It is 100% worse than the bulletproof, and even that role isn't seeing much use thanks to Meth Man. I would either cut it, make it stronger by giving it another ability (maybe you survive the first time you are lynched? - makes it better for SK to pick too), or put a bunch of them in the pool so you are basically assured of getting a role if you pick Veteran.
Oh I like that idea. You get an extra life at night and can survive 1 day lynch. I think this is a good change. Unlike bulletproof if you cause trouble you're guaranteed to live. I'll probably have to allow Roleblocking to break the +1 night life though.
God Father
I agree that this role needed to be made stronger from PYP1. I like the changes you made with the role, and I see it as relatively on par with Vengeful Player. However, I would like to see it confuse a few more information roles, at the very least the Bullet Bill role. The biggest problem with this role is there is just no reason for non-mafia to take it.
I don't think any non-mafia is going to pick GF. Showing up innocent is the biggest draw for it the SK doesn't need it and town avoids it. If I made it so that the GF isn't shown carrying a gun to evade BB that leaves Role Cop as the only role that can catch it which hurts the town if it doesn't get picked. What I'll do is allow the GF to shoot anyone during the day time in the event he/she is lynched. Strictly better than the Day Vigi and Vengeful Player, but if investigated by an RC or BB you'll have lots of explaining to do if you're town aligned picking this role.
Role blocker
Another role I can't understand why people aren't taking. This one is really good for almost everyone. Does it disable Meth Man?
It didn't but MM is gone for next game. RB is awesome sauce, especially for Scum.
Vengeful Player
KP role, but it isn't as strong as Day Vigi. It should probably see more use. I wouldn't change this much.
Prince(ss) of Darkness
I haven't really thought through the ramifications of this role enough yet. It seems like it would be situational though. By the way, why is it Prince(ss) but not Meth (Wo)Man?
I think there are just too many roles in the game right now. I think some of these overlapping ones need to be cut, or at least make the roles closer in power so it isn't quite so obvious which ones should be picked.
Also some roles slightly overlap so that you have a chance of getting something. If you're low on the draft list and you think Role Cop is going to be taken, then picking something like Tracker is solid. That said I am thinking about cutting out some more roles.
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Oh,I'll make my standard ploy and plug my favorite role: Mad Hatter. I feel like a 1 bomb hatter is pretty similar in power to Vengeful Player and might fit in decently nicely.
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On September 07 2010 09:46 SouthRawrea wrote:
Weee that was fun.
Thanks for the entertainment!
Seriously, it was fun trying to convince everyone that I wasn't the perfect traitor
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On September 07 2010 09:03 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 08:21 SiNiquity wrote:
Yes, and get rid of the 2nd number bit for the draft. Using it as a tie-breaker is moot, as then what if the 2nd numbers tie? Eventually you need a method of choosing independent of the chosen numbers (i.e. dice roll in this game), so why bother with even having more than 1 tie breaker.
I also like the idea of the most unique number (higher being better naturally). nah I need the second number because without it everyone will pick low numbers and pray for a good role. Picking 2 different numbers is easier than picking 1 different number. From now on I'll make sure that in the case of ties it's broken by uniqueness before order. So in this example: [7][3] [7][7] [5][7] [5][6] [5][6] Even though both sets have ties (7 and 5) I'll push 7 ahead in the draft order since that is more unique than 5. Then the 7s get resolved the normal way (3 before 7) and the 5s go through another unique tie break. In this case [5][7] is more unique than [5][6] so it goes before both of them. Then the two [5][6] players are resolved by dice roll. Thoughts?
Problem
Your system is not designed with a player's goal in mind. Your justification for keeping the 2 number system is that it's easier to pick 2 unique numbers instead of 1 unique number. But that's not the player's goal. The goal is to optimize one's position in the list, which hinges on picking the highest unique number. There is little strategy involved with choosing the second number, and it is not justified in the additional complexity.
Proof
Here's the strategy for choosing the second number. For N > 0, suppose you anticipate overlapping with N players. Then you should choose a number between N (safest, assuming minimal overlap, RNG with the last guy for 2nd to last place) and (N+1)/2 rounded up (riskiest, assuming maximal overlap). This holds both in the current system and in the proposed uniqueness-first system (except the safest bet is N+1 instead of N for N > 1).
In the case of N = 1 (arguably the most common case), the optimal answer is always 1 (giving you a 50% chance at the top spot, compared to a 0% chance for any other number choice). Furthermore, the penalty for overlapping in the second column is negligible when compared to overlapping in the first column, and as a result you'll see riskier play here. This mostly explains the distribution of the second column: 35% (7) of the players chose [*][1] and 15% chose [*][2], and those that chose various numbers such as 9, 20, etc. just didn't take the time to analyze the problem (or perhaps misunderstood it).
Solution
However, since you seem interested in keeping the second column, then I suggest the following: all overlappers are thrown into a single pool, completely disregarding their initial choice, and ordered entirely based on their second number. Overlaps here would follow the current system (edit: with the addition of uniqueness taking priority), with overlaps being bumped to the bottom and RNG'ing within their subgroup for order.
In the current system, your first number choice is shooting either for a low number and hope it's not overlapping (e.g. BrownBear's 20), or for a high number but running under the assumption it will probably overlap (e.g. 75% of players choosing numbers 10 or less).
In the new system, your first number choice is first and foremost a unique number, as its rank is meaningless if it's not unique. The second number then will play much like the current first number, albeit on a slightly smaller scale (as the pool size will be smaller, yet just how much smaller will not be known from the outset - an interesting twist IMO). This gets you closer to your stated goal: players choosing 2 unique numbers.
Hope you take this into consideration Ace.
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Dropping bad santa should be fine. An alternative might be to reduced the list to 3 people: works the same in mafia hands but when in town hands you could at most have 2 confirmed players when someone gets killed. Killing the bad santa would be less appealing.
Bad santa aside, I think this game was balanced OK. The mafia did effectively have another player in the traitor + there were some good pro-mafia roles that could have given the mafia extra KP but were not picked (still find it odd there wasn't a GF, even with the buff it got). The SK death/killing a red was twice lucky for town. Chaoser's list was another huge bit of luck: I would have pushed really hard to lynch Opz in it's absence; as it turned out, both me and Opz were on it AND there were also no other red on it AND Radfield had just been killed that night.
I actually liked the hit on JeeJee. The scum knew there was a medic/jack out there and they had it narrowed down to one of a few players.
I don't think this is why they killed him, but I could be wrong. The mafia killed JeeJee to make lynching Fishball less attractive. This is the same reason FB claimed he was roleblocked the following night and went from 90% to 99% red in my eyes.
I sort of checked out the past few days, glad Sin was there to finish this strong!
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On September 07 2010 11:06 SiNiquity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 09:03 Ace wrote:On September 07 2010 08:21 SiNiquity wrote:
Yes, and get rid of the 2nd number bit for the draft. Using it as a tie-breaker is moot, as then what if the 2nd numbers tie? Eventually you need a method of choosing independent of the chosen numbers (i.e. dice roll in this game), so why bother with even having more than 1 tie breaker.
I also like the idea of the most unique number (higher being better naturally). nah I need the second number because without it everyone will pick low numbers and pray for a good role. Picking 2 different numbers is easier than picking 1 different number. From now on I'll make sure that in the case of ties it's broken by uniqueness before order. So in this example: [7][3] [7][7] [5][7] [5][6] [5][6] Even though both sets have ties (7 and 5) I'll push 7 ahead in the draft order since that is more unique than 5. Then the 7s get resolved the normal way (3 before 7) and the 5s go through another unique tie break. In this case [5][7] is more unique than [5][6] so it goes before both of them. Then the two [5][6] players are resolved by dice roll. Thoughts? ProblemYour system is not designed with a player's goal in mind. Your justification for keeping the 2 number system is that it's easier to pick 2 unique numbers instead of 1 unique number. But that's not the player's goal. The goal is to optimize one's position in the list, which hinges on picking the highest unique number. There is little strategy involved with choosing the second number, and it is not justified in the additional complexity. ProofHere's the strategy for choosing the second number. For N > 0, suppose you anticipate overlapping with N players. Then you should choose a number between N (safest, assuming minimal overlap, RNG with the last guy for 2nd to last place) and (N+1)/2 rounded up (riskiest, assuming maximal overlap). This holds both in the current system and in the proposed uniqueness-first system (except the safest bet is N+1 instead of N for N > 1). In the case of N = 1 (arguably the most common case), the optimal answer is always 1 (giving you a 50% chance at the top spot, compared to a 0% chance for any other number choice). Furthermore, the penalty for overlapping in the second column is negligible when compared to overlapping in the first column, and as a result you'll see riskier play here. This mostly explains the distribution of the second column: 35% (7) of the players chose [*][1] and 15% chose [*][2], and those that chose various numbers such as 9, 20, etc. just didn't take the time to analyze the problem (or perhaps misunderstood it). SolutionHowever, since you seem interested in keeping the second column, then I suggest the following: all overlappers are thrown into a single pool, completely disregarding their initial choice, and ordered entirely based on their second number. Overlaps here would follow the current system (edit: with the addition of uniqueness taking priority), with overlaps being bumped to the bottom and RNG'ing within their subgroup for order. In the current system, your first number choice is shooting either for a low number and hope it's not overlapping (e.g. BrownBear's 20), or for a high number but running under the assumption it will probably overlap (e.g. 75% of players choosing numbers 10 or less). In the new system, your first number choice is first and foremost a unique number, as its rank is meaningless if it's not unique. The second number then will play much like the current first number, albeit on a slightly smaller scale (as the pool size will be smaller, yet just how much smaller will not be known from the outset - an interesting twist IMO). This gets you closer to your stated goal: players choosing 2 unique numbers. Hope you take this into consideration Ace.
Your solution is actually the old way I did it. If you for example had 3 people pick [8][N] then I slotted you based on N. If you had the same N I RNG'd you. Also, you don't mean this by pooling ALL players do you? :
[8][*]
[8][*]
[12][*]
[12][*]
[12][*]
And now all 5 players are in the same pool, organized by * ?
However I may be misunderstanding what's different about your proposal so you'll have to give me some examples to show me.
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On September 07 2010 12:37 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 11:06 SiNiquity wrote:On September 07 2010 09:03 Ace wrote:On September 07 2010 08:21 SiNiquity wrote:
Yes, and get rid of the 2nd number bit for the draft. Using it as a tie-breaker is moot, as then what if the 2nd numbers tie? Eventually you need a method of choosing independent of the chosen numbers (i.e. dice roll in this game), so why bother with even having more than 1 tie breaker.
I also like the idea of the most unique number (higher being better naturally). nah I need the second number because without it everyone will pick low numbers and pray for a good role. Picking 2 different numbers is easier than picking 1 different number. From now on I'll make sure that in the case of ties it's broken by uniqueness before order. So in this example: [7][3] [7][7] [5][7] [5][6] [5][6] Even though both sets have ties (7 and 5) I'll push 7 ahead in the draft order since that is more unique than 5. Then the 7s get resolved the normal way (3 before 7) and the 5s go through another unique tie break. In this case [5][7] is more unique than [5][6] so it goes before both of them. Then the two [5][6] players are resolved by dice roll. Thoughts? ProblemYour system is not designed with a player's goal in mind. Your justification for keeping the 2 number system is that it's easier to pick 2 unique numbers instead of 1 unique number. But that's not the player's goal. The goal is to optimize one's position in the list, which hinges on picking the highest unique number. There is little strategy involved with choosing the second number, and it is not justified in the additional complexity. ProofHere's the strategy for choosing the second number. For N > 0, suppose you anticipate overlapping with N players. Then you should choose a number between N (safest, assuming minimal overlap, RNG with the last guy for 2nd to last place) and (N+1)/2 rounded up (riskiest, assuming maximal overlap). This holds both in the current system and in the proposed uniqueness-first system (except the safest bet is N+1 instead of N for N > 1). In the case of N = 1 (arguably the most common case), the optimal answer is always 1 (giving you a 50% chance at the top spot, compared to a 0% chance for any other number choice). Furthermore, the penalty for overlapping in the second column is negligible when compared to overlapping in the first column, and as a result you'll see riskier play here. This mostly explains the distribution of the second column: 35% (7) of the players chose [*][1] and 15% chose [*][2], and those that chose various numbers such as 9, 20, etc. just didn't take the time to analyze the problem (or perhaps misunderstood it). SolutionHowever, since you seem interested in keeping the second column, then I suggest the following: all overlappers are thrown into a single pool, completely disregarding their initial choice, and ordered entirely based on their second number. Overlaps here would follow the current system (edit: with the addition of uniqueness taking priority), with overlaps being bumped to the bottom and RNG'ing within their subgroup for order. In the current system, your first number choice is shooting either for a low number and hope it's not overlapping (e.g. BrownBear's 20), or for a high number but running under the assumption it will probably overlap (e.g. 75% of players choosing numbers 10 or less). In the new system, your first number choice is first and foremost a unique number, as its rank is meaningless if it's not unique. The second number then will play much like the current first number, albeit on a slightly smaller scale (as the pool size will be smaller, yet just how much smaller will not be known from the outset - an interesting twist IMO). This gets you closer to your stated goal: players choosing 2 unique numbers. Hope you take this into consideration Ace. Your solution is actually the old way I did it. If you for example had 3 people pick [8][N] then I slotted you based on N. If you had the same N I RNG'd you. Also, you don't mean this by pooling ALL players do you? : [8][*] [8][*] [12][*] [12][*] [12][*] And now all 5 players are in the same pool, organized by * ? However I may be misunderstanding what's different about your proposal so you'll have to give me some examples to show me.
I think what he's proposing is something like this:
[8][1]
[8][3]
[5][2]
[5][5]
[5][7]
All of these conflict with another pick on the first number. The final list would look like this:
[8][1]
[5][2]
[8][3]
[5][5]
[5][7]
I guess picks of the same second numbers + a clash on the first number would be resolved randomly?
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EPT
