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On July 02 2010 23:41 bumatlarge wrote:
Im reluctant to vote YI, but I mst admit hes a viable godfather. Hasnt really been agressive with anyone, but has posted a good amout of content. Nothing scummy, but GF shouldnt appear scummy, since his main gist is to stay alive as long as possible. I dont want to do anything rash so early. With 17/20 pro town and none of the 3 scum knowing each other, being aggressive is not helpful. There's no interaction to study. In my earlier post I said clearly that the most important thing that any player can do is be active so that we have a baseline for what to expect in the future. If you're inactive I want to lynch you now since I won't be able to read a drop in your productivity between today and after you got recruited.
Right now I am least impressed by ElyAs and Abenson. Since ElyAs currently has enough votes on him that if he doesn't do anything about it he'll get lynched, I'm dropping my vote on Abenson.
It's not Canada Day anymore. Be active. Be productive.
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Slight erratum: The GF knows who they recruited. But it's one single one way minimal interaction - we're far more likely to randomly lynch the GF than to read that small tidbit.
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If you search for DTA you'll find my other question about priorities in actions. 
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I think that is functional except you have to put recruitment before detective. You said that the DT would get post recruiting info. And even though you made a list separation, coroner is last, yes? Thanks, this is helpful.
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Also, roleblock and jailkeep can conflict - I assume if they do that the roleblock gets priority. I don't think you intended jailkeep to be an unroleblockable role.
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On July 03 2010 02:01 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 01:51 YellowInk wrote:
I think that is functional except you have to put recruitment before detective. You said that the DT would get post recruiting info. And even though you made a list separation, coroner is last, yes? Thanks, this is helpful. Uh, what? If a DT got recruited, I would still send him/her the results of the check for that night. After that, no more DT powers.
Ohhhhh. lol. Just read my thing on a DT at the beginning. Hmmmm.... Well THAT'S complicated. I guess, for the sake of consistency, I'll put the DT after recruitment.
Coroner...well actually, Coroner is technically before recruitment. Coroner would not know whether or not he/she was recruited the night he/she chose to activate. Like, the general idea here is that nobody's decision-making for night actions should be influenced by that night's recruitment. However, their results may be changed, based on the recruitment.
Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 01:53 YellowInk wrote:
Also, roleblock and jailkeep can conflict - I assume if they do that the roleblock gets priority. I don't think you intended jailkeep to be an unroleblockable role. Right, roleblocker would stop a jailkeep. my bad.
Updated.
Roleblocker
Jailkeeper
Detective / Mad Hatter (set bombs)
Coroner
Godfather's recruitment
Detective results
Mafia Hit
Mad Hatter Hit (if applicable)
Others:
Dream Catcher: does not apply.
Veteran: passive, but with a Jailkeeper, he wouldn't lose any lives.
Hope this is right now T_T.
Doesn't coroner have to be at the very end? It happens after mafia hits (and so may as well happen after mad hatter hits)? Delete detective from the Detective / Mad Hatter (set bombs) line and I think we're all set.
At least you can see why I wanted some clarification. Recruitment makes things messy.
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Ok, so if a coroner goes off it will not show any information about anyone who was killed on that night (because it happens before hits). This conflicts with the coroner OP. That also covers my question about coroner/recruit/hit in the same night interaction.
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Hm, I think I have found the source of the confusion.
None of my questions were about order of submission of actions. They were entirely about order of resolution of actions. All actions get submitted throughout the night. Then you resolve them in an order by some given criteria. I want to know this order of resolution.
Coroner I assumed to happen at least after hits since the OP states that it covers the night's deaths. But consider that we'll see different results depending on if recruitment happens before or after hits/coroner.
hits
coroner
recruit
=> if recruit was on the hit townie, the coroner will show townie
recruit
hits
coroner
=> if recruit was on the hit townie, the coroner will show mafia
Another example is ordering of DT interaction. All that matters is order of resolution.
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The dream catcher gets a random role not the lost role.
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On July 03 2010 03:02 DarthThienAn wrote:
YellowInk, resolutions:
Recruitment
DT
Hits
Coroner
Is that clear then? Yes, Coroner would reveal any dead recruits from that night.
Yes, thanks. I think that covers everything.
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As I've stated earlier, I believe the roleblocker(s) should choose their own candidates. I also think the jailkeeper should not necessarily cover zeks. I won't say that he shouldn't, just should consider not covering zeks. We may have multiple jailkeepers anyhow - this size of a setup could warrant 2x medic.
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If people are 'afraid' to post they will get lynched every game until they start playing. Posting is at the core of the game. I would rather have new players making 100 mistakes (for which I might lynch them) than not posting enough (for which I will surely lynch them), but either way, they need to post or die.
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Roleclaiming inactive townie in a recruiting game is signing a death warrant. It makes him an excellent future recruit if he survives a few days. We'll have no baseline. While I lean towards believing him, I don't like it one bit. If he doesn't end up being lynched today, he should probably be basically autolynched at some point in the future when we're not sure who else to hit.
ElyAs, you can PM DTA and say "I can't play because something came up." The modkill would be reduced to a warning if you're giving notice rather than just flaking out. We could also get you an alternate. Anything beyond this is between you and the mod.
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Even if no lynch were an option (it isn't), I would not advocate it. Each night mafia are getting a recruit and a kill aside from failures. That's a huge red swing. We cannot play a waiting game. We need to force people to talk until we hit the godfather - whether because he chose to lay too low too long or because he stepped out of line and gets smacked for it.
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On July 04 2010 01:56 bumatlarge wrote:+ Show Spoiler [bum's big post] +Here's a quick summary of stuff for blue's to look at. Remember to do what YOU think is best, not what anyone else says. You know you are town, so use your judgement. L's plan + Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:56 L wrote:Okay, so there's a few things I noted going through this that I figured some people kinda didn't realize while doing their analysis. First off is this little tidbit from the rules post: Starting means that number isn't going to stay at 1. If we fuck up our first few lynches and vig hits, we're going to hit a wall where mafia KP is just going to be too high to recover from. Between the recruitment, mafia kills and daily lynch, mafia have the ability to drop 3+ town votes per day. Assuming they play perfectly, mafia kill 2 people per day via lynch and night hit and gain 1 voting power per day. More dangerously, i'd assume that mafia gain a kp, either at 3 or 4 members. If 3 is kp=2, which we'll find out tomorrow, its possible that they move to kp=3 if they have a full 5 members. 5 members, however, would be a situation in which town has missed 4 subsequent lynches. 3 missed lynches is generally a loss condition in F11, so this isn't really that far off. This means that by day 3, there are going to be 16 players alive, 4 of them mafia, 12 town. The day 4, we hit 5/8-9. At this point, unless we have hatters, vig and double lynches available and used properly, we lose unless we kill the godfather. This is assuming that the town kp isn't improperly placed, and that we don't double lynch inaccurately. This means we need to figure out who the GF is by day 4 or we're boned, put simply, or hit goons one after another. Given this, if we have shitty leads on day 3, we might want to consider claims given the information we have, but not before then. Why not before then? Well, its pretty simple: Show nested quote +If the Godfather is checked by a DT, do you return "Godfather"?
Yes, all DT checks are 100% (minus roleblock). We can't let our DT(s) get recruited or killed early because they're the only non destructive way we have of identifying the GF. Given the shitshow of a last game, I'd like to be able to have our day 1 lynch proceed smoothly. Because of that, I want to know what people think about the following idea; We have one of the two masons claim. Given that we have verrrrry likely have medic(s), they can prot him and keep him alive during the game. If the player is lying, one (not both!) of the real masons can call him out. Given the fact that there are only 2 total mafia members today, it would cost the mafia essentially half their team to contest the mason claim. This is also a reason why claiming immediately would be more helpful than claiming at a later date. The downsides of this? Godfather now has a person he knows not to recruit, and the mason might die once mafia kp gets over 1. If we do that, we have a confirmed townie who can essentially drive our vote; if he's wrong, cool beans, it happens. If he's right; awesome. Either way, it'll prevent exploitable intra-town conflicts. And zeks roleclaim to mason (no contention as of yet, so assuming hes legitimate sounds very reasonable to me) + Show Spoiler +On July 02 2010 11:58 zeks wrote:
wow the reception was awesome!
Sorry for mindfucking you all for 10 mins rofl
Yes I'm one of the Masons. For better or for worse god picked me to be the Mason and the other mason and I agreed that I'd come out and roleclaim.
Now I'm going out for real now, no more posting for the night, play on, speculate if you will. I'll read through all this in the morning. And then Korynne's plan. People seem to have been questioning it, and we have already lynched someone, but there is some useful strategies in here, so use your intuition. We won't hate you for trying  + Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote:
Also DCLXVI, it's KoryNNE not KoryNEE.
rastaban I like the idea, except GF can still recruit when mafia is roleblocked right? So then best case scenerio we find 2 mafia, we end up with this situation of 5 mafia (GF recruits while we sit around roleblocking mafia), hopefully none of which are roleblocker or we're screwed on that plan unless the dream catcher gets roleblocker from another blue. And then us lynching people can potentially out the roleblocker. Or we sit around and not lynch people? That seems like a rather stalemate.
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. And some shameless self-promotion if you really dont know where to start. Assume the more games they've played and how active a player is ups how experienced they are and merge it with the gut feelings you get from this thread. You should be able to generate a solid guess as to what you should do. + Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:55 bumatlarge wrote:Fun play makes me a very happy person. I love you darth. On that note, there seem to be very few new players who I have not seen play, but could have been in other games, but I have played with a good amount of the roster. That being said, I put together a list of people who have played together. I know I would like to pick someone I was familiar with. I think if you're mafia with someone, you get in contact a little more with them, and if they are cohesive, it should lead somewhere in this game. Havent gone to fr into it. If you see something I missed, got wrong, or want to go deeper, be my guest. (R) = red role + Show Spoiler +
Game 2: L(R), Chezinu, AFJ, bum
Game 3: chezinu, bum
Ace MWorld: bum, Qatol
Resurrection: zeks, qatol
Game 4: bum, lakrismama(R), Qatol
Game 5: Qatol, bum, zeks
Game 7: Qatol(R), L
Game XII: L, Chezinu
Red Army: L, Chez(R)
Mini Mafia #1: Chez, Qatol
Smurf: lol not going to bother
Mafia XV: Chez(R), L(R)
Mini Mafia 2: L, Chezinu
Game XVIII: L, Chez, Abenson
Red army 2: L, Chez, BM, Abenson, citizen
Game XX: BM, L, Abenson, citizen
Game XIV: BM, Abenson, citizen
Micro: Abenson, citizen
Micro 2: L, BM
WaW: BM, L, Abenson, citizen
Steve Zizou: Korynne(R), brownbear, Abenson
Game 22: AFJ, BM(R), Abenson, Bear
PYPM: BM, citizen, L, Korynne, Qatol (what the hell happened)
3King: L, BM, Abenson, bear (I didnt understand this much...)
bang bang: L, Korynne, bear, chez, citizen(R)
game 26: bum(R), elyas, AFJ, DCL, zeks
game 27: L(R), chez(R), citizen, afj
Team Mini: BM+Chez, L, bum, korynne, yellow(R), DCL+divine, bear
# of times played with (again i probably missed things) + Show Spoiler +
L + Chez = 10(2R)
BM + Abenson = 6
L + BM = 6
Abenson + citizen = 5
BM + citizen = 5
L + citizen = 5
L + Aben = 5
Korynne + L = 3
Korynne + bear = 3
aben + bear= 3
chez + bum = 3
bum + Qatol = 3
chez + citizen = 3
Pretty interesting, but nothing to nail anything something down. Its just to find chains of things for blue roles to use if they hit gold, and for us to put soe method to our lynching if we have nothing. I don't know the state of any of the 'connections' besides my own. From what I gather, L is completely apathetic towards chezinu. Who knows, use this as you will. Kind of suspicious that you left out the best plan.
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On July 04 2010 03:50 Divinek wrote:
kind of odd you comment on that then dont include it yourself I'm an odd person. I've condensed my plan here for ease of reading and for future reference.
Roleblockers block who they like. Block consecutively to confirm likely scum and keep KP low when mafia fail to hit. Once the godfather falls, they can come forward and reveal what scum they found if appropriate to the game state, but they should definitely not out themselves before this.
DTs investigate who they like. They only out themselves to finger the godfather or 2x goon (so that roleblockers can perpetual block KP). If town is in bad shape and mafia hits are never blocked, I could see a situation where the DT outs themselves for fingering 1x goon and hopes the jailkeeper covers them or someone else has info on another goon.
Jailkeeper jails whom they like, but would keep the same person jailed perpetually to keep them as a highly likely safe town. This continues until there is a better target that the jailkeeper needs to cover.
Because of zeks forcing L's plan prior to alignment, the jailkeeper may consider to use zeks as a target, but I would recommend against it. I still am strongly against L's plan and find it likely that zeks is mafia goon or traitor. There are plenty of reasons the masons would remain hidden. However this decision should be left up to the jailkeeper.
+ Show Spoiler [Why zeks isn't necessarily mason] +If you still havn't been convinced of why zeks could be a likely mafia goon, consider that the mafia can play extremely aggressively because of the limited interaction between their team and the lack of immediate death information revelations. Suppose zeks got counterclaimed by a single vanilla mason. Now the godfather knows who the mason is and we are left with the choice to go for a 50/50 lynch, a 50/50 roleblock (giving the godfather the opportunity to recruit the mason), or just ignore the whole plan. All of these situations are great for the red. This is not your typical static # of mafia game setup.
If zeks got counterclaimed by two vanilla mutually confirming masons, now we can lynch/block zeks, but the godfather will be able to recruit with impunity. On night 3 when we can't roleblock zeks, the mafia can take out zeks, forcing us to jail zeks if we want to get 2 more blocks out of him. This is the best situation for the town.
However, if zeks is the traitor and not the goon, this situation is absolutely devastating for the town. The masons will be high profile targets. Maybe they won't get hit right away just to fake out the jailkeeper, but they will have outed their powerful roles in exchange for a pretty weak mafia aligned role. Furthermore, if the masons are not vanilla, that's even more power being put out to get killed in any of these situations.
As you know there was a great deal more analysis and explanation to why these are the choices that should be made, but I think this covers all my major points.
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Lakrismamma? That seems an odd choice. All he really had to say of merit was that he didn't like me. He also leaned against Abenson. Not a big fan of L's modified plan.
I think it was just a shot taken of opportunity. No one likely to cover him. Is there anything else to see here?
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On July 04 2010 13:58 citi.zen wrote:
I think in this set-up fake claims are hugely damaging in this set-up general, since we don't learn the alignment of the dead.
For the sake of the argument - let's say the mafia claim DT and say "OMG - I found the GF!!". Then we lynch that (innocent) player but... don't know if they were red, unless we use the coroner the next night. If we use it, the coroner loses their power, so the 2nd time a mafia goon does this we can't even verify it at all. Does that mean the mafia can do this every single day in principle, leading to perpetual mis-lynches? Even if we correctly kill the supposed DT as well (a 2x lynch for example), the GF would be safe since we're wasting the town KP on goons.
The whole set-up seems fucked up, unless I just don't understand something obvious here. Maybe I just need sleep. I had come to this conclusion before the game had started. I didn't say as much because I didn't want to let on that mafia could play so aggressively. This is why I objected to L's plan. This is why I don't trust zeks. To be honest, I havn't figured out a counter strategy to aggressive mafia play. Ignoring roleclaims gets us nowhere - I'm not about to lynch zeks or a cold claiming DT either. The only way we seem to be able to win is if we get lucky enough to lynch the godfather within the first few days. After this, chances seem really really slim.
There's a big difference between a game with a cult that can recruit, but not kill, where the cult leader dies when they try to recruit mafia... and a cult that can recruit, gets KP, and doesn't die to night hits or poor choice of recruit. This is why at the start I felt there really wasn't much chance for town unless we have multiple free masons (or get super lucky). From DTA's earlier description of how he set up the game, I believe we only have one free mason pair and one set of lovers, though.
Since the idea of aggressive mafia play is clearly out in the open now, lets discuss. How can we counter if it mafia plays this way?
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L, did you read this? Especially the spoiler section. It's not terrible for the goon to make the claim (especially considering how much division there was on your plan), and it's actually quite good for the traitor to make the claim. That zeks hasn't put out an encrypted key (again, especially after request) seems downright silly. Then again, I suppose there is a chance he has and he just left it concealed.
Having a single verified town doesn't do us all that much good anyhow. The risk vs reward of putting any significant trust in this individual never seemed greater than the benefit of keeping the mason concealed and the jailkeeper not committed to that target.
So I still stand by my initial reaction to zeks' claim. I don't buy it.
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On July 05 2010 08:28 Bill Murray wrote:
i also believe that there ARE masons, and that zeks IS a mason, I'm just prepared for the POSSIBILITY of Chezinu influencing this guy as mafia. No, I'm not under the influence. No, I'm not hung over. The above sums up my stance fairly well except for the fingering Chezinu part.
I'd give zeks 80% odds on being mason. This isn't something I'd trust my life with. I don't feel that this was worth zeks coming out and claiming assuming he is mason. I don't agree that this mason coming out plan is strong. I don't believe the jailkeeper should necessarily cover zeks (though if you covered night 1, you should probably keep covering him).
I wish I was traitor this game. Unfortunately I'm stuck trying to figure out how to convince everyone how to play their best. More to come about who to hang after I do some more analysis.
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EPT
