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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Damn, shoulda picked a different character to nameclaim. Probably woulda gotten a free pass had I claimed Werewolf or Tonks.
All in all, it was fun. Not the most organized, and a lot of stuff was up in the air, but it was fun. Pity I had to leave for a few days. =(
There were a few instances where I didn't agree with some of the decisions made, such as how if one of the Malfoys died, all of them died. But ehh, I thought it was fun, just wasn't a fan of having the town clueless as to what they had at their disposal. Felt as if this gave the Mafia a great advantage, although it was kinda bothersome not knowing how many _____s and _______s they had on their side, and what spells they had at their disposal.
But once everyone came out and basically said what they could do, it became pretty easy for us to manage until the end.
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BM, let me first say that it's fun to have a flavorful game even if it's not perfectly balanced or run. I appreciate that you did this for us and I can see that it took a lot of work to both put this together and to run it.
Now I'm going to vent for a moment. Or two. Hopefully the commentary in and discussion following from this post will lead to improved games run by anyone.
It's ok to have some roles disclosed and others not, but it should be clearly indicated in the rules. The 'spell triangle' should definitely have been in the OP since you apparantely told Amber[Light] about it at some point. It's ok to have hidden game information if you're stating in the OP that there is hidden information. I could see the game design being like a couple of the experienced wizards know about the triangle and all the kids don't. You could mix in the spell triangle flavor with the role PMs so it looks like you're just explaining it to the experienced wizards without making it seem like a big deal that they should tell everyone else. Then when someone comes out and tries to explain it (like Amber[Light] did), they suddenly realize they have to convince everyone the truth of it (and the mod does NOT step in). If it's a rule that the mod can verify, it needs to be in the OP.
Majority votes are majority. Fortunately no one changed their mind to make this rule need to be invoked, but still.
Changing rules at the end was silly - you stated it was because you don't like vote races, so why arbitrarily give the victory to the mafia? Obviously mafia would win the vote race because they're organized, there was no need to step in here. Also, that you weren't there to make a start of day post was unfair either way because mafia were sitting trigger happy on their AKs and we couldn't respond with immediate voting. We didn't even know who was alive or dead and since you had set a precedent for days to begin without you present, of course the mafia went ahead and took their day actions. This made it impossible for town to even choose to react should they have the capability to (which we didn't in this case, as noted earlier, the game appeared to already be over the previous day).
Also, self pardoning is crazy powerful - practically unlynchable. You could just as easily have said to Rad that you can't self pardon. Details about elected roles should definitely have been in the OP (such as MoM having multiple votes and number of Gov pardons). They're elected, it's public, it just makes sense for flavor.
Why wasn't I told I was a nurse at the start of the game? Gaining a power and being a treestump made it impossible to soft claim treestump since the OP specifically states that the treestump has no other powers. To the point, when a rule is made, don't break it. Charlie could have been the nurse instead and it wouldn't have broken the game.
Were the Malfoys told they were lover-linked to Draco? Survivor win conditions are already pretty challenging even without something like this. The survivor-mafia thing didn't make sense, though. Couldn't Leucius just give the town the mafia team and claim victory with the town? Or was Leucius expected to both survive and have mafia victory in order to win?
Please don't post things that can possibly affect the game - even DTA got railed for wording something in his game that could possibly imply that a random person was receiving a blue role. It's important to be completely clear that any post you are making is not having an impact on gameplay. Most times mod responses need to any queries need to be kept very short and to the point - if even answered at all. This goes for PMs, too. The majority of the posts (and PMs) that you made that weren't day start/end info contained information that affected my knowledge - some dramatically so. I kept the info out of thread as best I could, but it definitely affected some of my decisions.
Day start and end posts should contain all the information about what happened throughout the night and signify the day start or end all at once. I think you realized that leaking some information throughout the night was a Bad Thing about halfway through, but you still need to post at day start so that we know nothing else happened during the night. Assuming it even mattered, on the last day if we had assumed it started at that 20 minute mark after your post we could have been playing and you show up half way through to say, 'oh wait, no, this guy is dead'. That's just not a fair day start. I might have felt it was fair to assume that I had successfully protected. If I hadn't already claimed, I might have in such a circumstance which would be thoroughly disruptive - it's not like I could take it back once you retcon the start of day.
Why were you so harsh against masons? The only reason I can see was because you included so many of them. This special no-mason-claiming rule would not have been needed if you had instead just not made so many masons. I'm not even sure the rule would have been necessary as is. If all the mason pairs claimed and the mafia stayed quiet, I think there's a decent chance we would have been like, "Wtf? We can't all seriously be masons, can we?" The only problem was that the mafia numbers were so few and didn't appear to have any real room for character claiming any significant roles. We could have just mass roleclaimed at the start and picked off the less important characters. Also, the lack of clarity on when one can claim mason was destructive - I wonder if Jayme realized he could have saved Jugan or if he felt completely bound by the flip flopping of the rules? Same with Jugan. It certaintly created a totally unnecessary argument near the end of the game.
How were Fred/George JOAT and had so many investigations (or were they just making up the DT stories)?
Was Amber[Light] or Radfield choosing the bans? I was really confused with our minister being Harry Potter but making bans that made it more difficult for us to communicate. I think the idea of posting restrictions is cool (and I have used them in games), but if this was just to suit your taste and wasn't something being implemented by someone's mechanic (seems MoM power most obviously), that's pretty arbitrary.
A couple things to be careful of especially in theme game design - make sure the game is still about an uninformed majority vs an informed minority. Honestly it seemed like the mafia had little effective force (were only 3 of the mafia able to communicate?) and the town was peppered with masons. Each town mason pair had almost as much communicative power as the mafia!
Also, you want to try to keep the game about sifting the truth from the lies and not just be a role-game. Even if you have a game where there are no vanilla townies (this game basically had no vanilla), you can make the powers watered down for balance. For instance detectives can get information that hints at a character, but isn't precise enough to specifically say who they are. Or a medic who can only protect against certain kinds of hits.
When possible, the endgame should be designed to be the climax. Daykills are really powerful in town hands, but much more so in mafia hands. If the town can suddenly get ambushed by a bunch of AKs, it really shifts the endgame point and gave mafia a huge advantage. I'll admit it did fit into the flavor of this game for death eaters to all have AKs, but consider how much earlier the game could have ended if Nagini had survived (and had AK). If we assume Radfield had 2 pardons and the town has no KP, once we were at 11 players the game would practically be over. If Nagini didn't have AK, same situation at 10 players. In a 21 player game, having 3 mafia survive to this point is not unheard of - especially with the Malfoys in the mix. What's worse is that the game would continue even though the mafia had practically won because the mafia is playing it safe (for medic protection and town daykills). Most game designs instead give limited use KP to town and just give the mafia increased night KP (eg at 3 mafia, mafia KP is 2). Mafia daykill powers are very strong since they can use them right before a lynch if they get caught.
Just a final question for my own personal curiousity, was the busdrive or the imperious curse ever used to any effect?
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On July 07 2010 02:13 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 21:18 Jugan wrote:Ahhh so I was right, i figured radfield was mafia along with roffles. It was pretty easy to fish it out of roffles, tbh  i had radfield pegged from the start, and i was pretty sure roffles was mafia before i got lynched. you should keep your posting consistent roffypie Okay Jugan. Whatever you say. I like how you never mentioned my name or Radfield's as a DE. Alrighty.
You guys seriously need some MVP awards. I suspected you but not enough to come out and make an accusation. You actually got really lucky that Jugan played like utter shit so when it came down to you and Jugan for the lynch, where Jugan chose to continue to play terribly you weren't considered as a lynch target and suspicion didn't carry over to the next day.
Gonna kick my ass over that for a while.
And how is it HWMNBN AND HARRY POTTER ended up as the MoM/Pardoner? I'll never trust you again Radfield...
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On July 07 2010 02:27 YellowInk wrote:
BM, let me first say that it's fun to have a flavorful game even if it's not perfectly balanced or run. I appreciate that you did this for us and I can see that it took a lot of work to both put this together and to run it.
Now I'm going to vent for a moment. Or two. Hopefully the commentary in and discussion following from this post will lead to improved games run by anyone.
It's ok to have some roles disclosed and others not, but it should be clearly indicated in the rules. The 'spell triangle' should definitely have been in the OP since you apparantely told Amber[Light] about it at some point. It's ok to have hidden game information if you're stating in the OP that there is hidden information. I could see the game design being like a couple of the experienced wizards know about the triangle and all the kids don't. You could mix in the spell triangle flavor with the role PMs so it looks like you're just explaining it to the experienced wizards without making it seem like a big deal that they should tell everyone else. Then when someone comes out and tries to explain it (like Amber[Light] did), they suddenly realize they have to convince everyone the truth of it (and the mod does NOT step in). If it's a rule that the mod can verify, it needs to be in the OP.
Please don't post things that can possibly affect the game - even DTA got railed for wording something in his game that could possibly imply that a random person was receiving a blue role. It's important to be completely clear that any post you are making is not having an impact on gameplay. Most times mod responses need to any queries need to be kept very short and to the point - if even answered at all. This goes for PMs, too. The majority of the posts (and PMs) that you made that weren't day start/end info contained information that affected my knowledge - some dramatically so. I kept the info out of thread as best I could, but it definitely affected some of my decisions.
Was Amber[Light] or Radfield choosing the bans? I was really confused with our minister being Harry Potter but making bans that made it more difficult for us to communicate. I think the idea of posting restrictions is cool (and I have used them in games), but if this was just to suit your taste and wasn't something being implemented by someone's mechanic (seems MoM power most obviously), that's pretty arbitrary.
Are you referring to the mod bans? I don't believe either of us had any say in that.
Also I agree completely about the spell triangle. I actually had a bit of an argument over the spell mechanics as it seemed that there was something no one in the game understood, ie the spell triangle (Protego > Expelliarmus > AK > ...). It's hard for me to sit around and go "BM should explain this further" and nothing happens for almost a day.
Also the whole announcing kills was lulzy. I did choose to roleblock TGB just because he used the AK in thread.
@ Bill Murray
I don't mean to knock you as a mod. You did a good job but it may have helped if you had a co-mod or two to discuss in-game situations so you get a 2nd opinion about certain actions that may be in the "gray area."
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On July 07 2010 02:34 Amber[LighT] wrote:
@ Bill Murray
I don't mean to knock you as a mod. You did a good job but it may have helped if you had a co-mod or two to discuss in-game situations so you get a 2nd opinion about certain actions that may be in the "gray area."
This appears to be a pretty strong community that you can just PM someone who is not involved in the game and just ask for advice. I havn't seen Qatol play, but clearly he's interested in the community and has familiarity with the game and maybe is a good resource for such things.
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On July 07 2010 02:40 YellowInk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:34 Amber[LighT] wrote:
@ Bill Murray
I don't mean to knock you as a mod. You did a good job but it may have helped if you had a co-mod or two to discuss in-game situations so you get a 2nd opinion about certain actions that may be in the "gray area."
This appears to be a pretty strong community that you can just PM someone who is not involved in the game and just ask for advice. I havn't seen Qatol play, but clearly he's interested in the community and has familiarity with the game and maybe is a good resource for such things.
He's probably one of the best hosts for mafia games. Whenever he runs games they typically end up being really smooth and clear. I've seen him play a few games before... he's good.
And yah it wouldn't even need to be actual co-hosts, but people who can just view a few things randomly (Flamewheel was reading at least on Day1...)
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Mafia team played well in my thought. Neither of their casualty was product of good hard scumhunting from town! (Nagini was DT investigated, and acrossfivejuly ambushed by Malfoy lolness) As for the setup, it had it's bumpy moments, but at least it managed to sail all the way to the end- though most participants in the voyage enveloped in perpetual fog of cluelessness it seems. Bill Murray seem to be someone eager to run self-made custom game (second to Caller) as much as moding regular game, so I would be disappointed to see this discourage him from modding custom games ever again. I, like everyone, will just parrot basic advices: pre-game check up by one of experienced players, discourage away from swinginess (the probability of victory for all factions should be consistent throughout for game, limit the probability of decisive action occuring that overthrows the power structure), and well-explained rules and willingness to explain concisely and quickly when situation demands.
Overall I am embarrassed about my performance in this game. As PGO I tried to attract mafia attention by aggressively crapshooting all over the place but none of the major players I chose to attack (Amber[light], YI, ~OpZ~) turned out to be scum xD And my opinion on Roffles turned out to be terribly off also.
On July 06 2010 15:55 Bill Murray wrote:
Night 1:
Radfield attempts to use AK on Hesmyrr, but is roleblocked
Rofl the Voldemort was surprisingly intent on killing me though I have no idea why (I am guessing Radfield tried to hit me n2 also since my role said that Voldemort and Harry Potter could visit me without death). Looking over my arguments I think I posed no threat to them at all, especially with my tendency to iso only select players that interest me. He intended to use my death to frame one of my foses, I guess.
Anyway good game, and I hope to see more information and post-game thoughts coming from BM and some of the other major participants.
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On July 07 2010 02:08 Radfield wrote:
Yeah, I think we could have done this a day ago.
Jspazz
YInk
Amber
Opz
Jeejee
Gilaboy
Roffles
Radfield
we kill Amber and Yink. Use a pardon, Use a nightkill(no medics left). 3v2.
Use another Pardon, use another nightkill. 2v2
There was no need to do it though since Jspazz was getting lynched. I think roffles leaving actually removed some suspicion from him. If he had stuck around, I bet he would have got lynched over Jspazz. Not saying anything about his play, he was great, just that by having Korynne replace him, she kind of got a pass.
for the record opz and i have medic powers
im still confused why bm ended the game but oh well
also @ yink
mafia is not necessarily winning the vote race just because they're organized
for all intents and purposes, opz and i are just as organized as mafia
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
After further thought though, I do think that BM made some of the spell mechanics work as they should have. Had he actually followed the course of the books, Voldy would have been the most broken character ever.
For the sake of balance, I think he did a rather decent job, aside from most of us being left clueless as to what was possible, and what wasn't.
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Another thing to add to YI's list of gripes is that the OP specifically stated no character would have access to all spells, yet both harry potter and voldemort in fact did.
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It was quite obvious when you take time to think about your actions roffles. And I posted earlier, I wanted the town to lose
also roffles, I never mentioned ANYONE as a death eater.
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On July 07 2010 05:08 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Another thing to add to YI's list of gripes is that the OP specifically stated no character would have access to all spells, yet both harry potter and voldemort in fact did.
i made that op for 25 people, and had to modify the game
i also wanted to change it to where noone would know anything
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On July 07 2010 05:08 Jugan wrote:It was quite obvious when you take time to think about your actions roffles. And I posted earlier, I wanted the town to lose also roffles, I never mentioned ANYONE as a death eater.
Yeah okay. You keep telling yourself that. Everyone else can pretty much back me on this one. But you're gonna play the "I knew that, just didn't say it" card.
Whachu gonna say when I quote you saying stuff like:
Amber: Been spewin out BS the entire game and pretty much continue to do so for like 3-4 posts in a row? Nice job wanting to lynch Harry Potter...
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On July 07 2010 05:38 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 05:08 Jugan wrote:It was quite obvious when you take time to think about your actions roffles. And I posted earlier, I wanted the town to lose also roffles, I never mentioned ANYONE as a death eater. Yeah okay. You keep telling yourself that. Everyone else can pretty much back me on this one. But you're gonna play the "I knew that, just didn't say it" card.
Afraid I have to back up the scummy Roffles here lol
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after the abenson catastrophe, i was very impressed with radfield and roffles
of course i wanted the town to win, as that's how it happens in the books, and i wanted amber to use the day-expelliarmus he gained to block radfield (which would have ended the game!), but radfield played nearly perfectly, so what can you do
the play this game was by far better than my modding
i vow to take more time to become a better mod
hope you all give me a 2nd chance
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Plus if you really knew that I was a DE and didn't say so, that makes you no doubtedly the worst fucking Mafia player ever, something numerous people mentioned earlier in the thread as well.
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radfield is the only person who used the imperius curse
it's funny because the action he wanted the person to take, they were already taking
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On July 06 2010 21:29 Thegilaboy wrote:
Awww shit, I knew you'd betray me Darth!
lol. At that point, the game was pretty much over  . It's not my fault, I keep getting mafia =X.
On July 06 2010 23:04 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 21:18 Jugan wrote:Ahhh so I was right, i figured radfield was mafia along with roffles. It was pretty easy to fish it out of roffles, tbh i had radfield pegged from the start, and i was pretty sure roffles was mafia before i got lynched. you should keep your posting consistent roffypie yeah yeah yeah i'm sure sadly your accusations in-game say otherwise (amber and me? rofl?) but hey, everyone's a pro and knew all the mafia after the game is over /rolleyes @BM, again you linked the wrong rule. before your edit, rule #8 stated if there is a tie, the person to obtain the votes first gets lynched either way i don't care, esp given the pardons yes it's unlikely that town can win but you can't deny it's not impossible, and editing the rules to make it impossible after you wrongfully ended the game is a wee bit silly imho
? With pardons, it's impossible. Even if you try to lynch us, Radfield pardons, we night hit, etc. There was no way the town could win, I think.
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look, i must have drunkenly edited it mid-game, because it originally said "in the case of a tie, it goes into sudden death twilight, and the person who gets the most votes after the tie dies. (like if someone takes one off, or if someone adds one)
you can verify this with radfield, and if you check the end of day 1, it will also lend weight to this having been the case. i went back to pull that rule, and it was worded like most other games have it worded, and i was like "WTF? This isn't how it was!"
I will admit I did a poor job
Can you all get off my ass on this?
It's my 2nd game I've ever modded.
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On July 07 2010 05:41 Bill Murray wrote:after the abenson catastrophe, i was very impressed with radfield and roffles of course i wanted the town to win, as that's how it happens in the books, and i wanted amber to use the day-expelliarmus he gained to block radfield (which would have ended the game!), but radfield played nearly perfectly, so what can you do the play this game was by far better than my modding i vow to take more time to become a better mod hope you all give me a 2nd chance
He's the last person I was planning to use it on. I was convinced he was legit since I roleblocked him N1 and my gf roleblocked him N3 so I had this odd idea that radfield had to be legit, and he was playing that part... not only did I set him up for his own victory :p
I was going to use it on Opz or JeeJee, if anyone. They kept gunning for YI and I started to feel bad for the guy. He was getting a lot of shit from Opz and I think if anything YI deserves an apology from the beating Opz gave all game long 
On July 07 2010 05:08 Jugan wrote:It was quite obvious when you take time to think about your actions roffles. And I posted earlier, I wanted the town to lose also roffles, I never mentioned ANYONE as a death eater.
Okay okay I'll just forget that I was the only person you wanted to see dead lollol
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