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United States37500 Posts
On August 20 2011 07:40 eagle wrote:
and hotshottgg is still farming top....
Chauster said that the biggest "problem" he sees in this tournament is how both EU teams just let HSGG trololol farm not without consequence. You know HSGG 9 times out of 10 is going to go into "always farm, never leave" mode. So you have to stop him somehow.
NA teams, heck even solo q players, will try to gank HSGG and try to hold him back, especially after the first top tower falls. That's where HSGG gets his notorious reputation for overextending. But nope, instead neither SK nor Fnatic did anything to top lane both games. HSGG ends up looking like a god as a result.
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On August 20 2011 07:44 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 06:29 Eppa! wrote:On August 20 2011 06:17 zulu_nation8 wrote:
therainman plays nothing but bruisers top in tournaments but he rarely loses lanes or plays bad. But the only AD bruiser he plays is Udyr i think. I dunno, wickd played really poorly on Lee sin and WW. Maybe it is just nerves. He plays udyr, jarvan, trundle, and singed in tournaments lately which are all pretty tanky and only singed is ap. With first pick against any eu team left eu is really screwed with banning. Jax, orianna, nidalee, cho pick 3 to ban and get raped by the other. Eu teams just seem very weak top lanes compared to na teams with dyrus, rainman, and hotshot being the top 3 top lanes(wickd shouldn't be in the conversation after this weekend he looked very weak against good competition) This tourney so far is an exact opposite of dreamhack where the eu meta evolved while na thought theirs was fine after wcg.
I think Wickd was nervous, the times I have played against him and watched his stream he has played better. He is like 17 and looks to have fallen apart during the tournament generally he has a really solid defensive game but he got killed early and as Lanewick your fucked, and lane Lee Sin he didn't dodge Brand stuff very well. Hotshots Jax is pretty terrible, FX didn't counter play, no way a top team would pick Jax in a do or die match. If it were another team I would simply ban Orianna, Nid, Sona and first pick Alistar. Hotshots Cho is good but a Cho can only do so much unless your team snowballs with him he will not get scary. Don't expect comebacks though.
We actually saw the same thing at dreamhack and I think that EU teams have fallen to early game ganks due to not being familiar with the aggressive early game of NA teams. A first blood at 1 with assists is gargantuan and snowballs not to mention denied farm of their jungler. This is imo what cost SK the game, Fnatic vs CLG didn't matter and I think Kassadin was a troll pick.
It is really up to them to adapt to early game as they have imo a more solid mid game.
I think the priority for bans in general should be:
1. Top chars
2. Junglers
3. AP carries.
4. Support
5. Carries
Currently I feel that there are so many viable carries that it is not worth it to ban them out.
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On August 20 2011 08:15 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:46 Niton wrote:
I think Hotshot's versatility has increased just enough to not be worth banning out / able to be banned out, which makes him an incredibly scary player. I also think, though, that he's not the player the enemy team should be banning out - Elementz can play Alistar now (kind of) and Sona, and they really don't want him on another role.
Any combination of bans/picks that forces Elementz to play a support he's not good at (or even better, forces another CLG player onto a support because they're better than Elementz at it) would be a much better way at neutralizing CLG than giving Hotshot a character he's good but not great at. Elementz is on full time support duty for CLG now. So trying to snipe Elementz now means free reign for HSGG and possibly jiji/Chauster. Real dumb. Real terror.
But he can't actually play support at the same level as any of the other supports left in the tournament, and he's easily one of the worst supports on any of the tournament-going teams. If you can force him to either play a champion he can't play or force CLG to attempt to have him lane, you'd garner a huge advantage.
You could probably do the same thing to Epik with PGB lol. Look how much more well rounded Nyph or Xpecial are at playing supports than Elementz - even though people say the role's not important, putting someone on a champion they can't really play doesn't end well in tournament games.
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On August 20 2011 08:22 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 07:44 bigjenk wrote:On August 20 2011 06:29 Eppa! wrote:On August 20 2011 06:17 zulu_nation8 wrote:
therainman plays nothing but bruisers top in tournaments but he rarely loses lanes or plays bad. But the only AD bruiser he plays is Udyr i think. I dunno, wickd played really poorly on Lee sin and WW. Maybe it is just nerves. He plays udyr, jarvan, trundle, and singed in tournaments lately which are all pretty tanky and only singed is ap. With first pick against any eu team left eu is really screwed with banning. Jax, orianna, nidalee, cho pick 3 to ban and get raped by the other. Eu teams just seem very weak top lanes compared to na teams with dyrus, rainman, and hotshot being the top 3 top lanes(wickd shouldn't be in the conversation after this weekend he looked very weak against good competition) This tourney so far is an exact opposite of dreamhack where the eu meta evolved while na thought theirs was fine after wcg. I think Wickd was nervous, the times I have played against him and watched his stream he has played better. He is like 17 and looks to have fallen apart during the tournament generally he has a really solid defensive game but he got killed early and as Lanewick your fucked, and lane Lee Sin he didn't dodge Brand stuff very well. Hotshots Jax is pretty terrible, FX didn't counter play, no way a top team would pick Jax in a do or die match. If it were another team I would simply ban Orianna, Nid, Sona and first pick Alistar. Hotshots Cho is good but a Cho can only do so much unless your team snowballs with him he will not get scary. Don't expect comebacks though. We actually saw the same thing at dreamhack and I think that EU teams have fallen to early game ganks due to not being familiar with the aggressive early game of NA teams. A first blood at 1 with assists is gargantuan and snowballs not to mention denied farm of their jungler. This is imo what cost SK the game, Fnatic vs CLG didn't matter and I think Kassadin was a troll pick. It is really up to them to adapt to early game as they have imo a more solid mid game.
Hotshots jax is not terrible, not on the level of his nid but he has done well in tournaments with it lately, and if you don't shut him down early he carries hard. I don't believe any eu team will have first pick since clg is the higher seed in the brackets now. He has also gotten quite good at galio lately which does very well against double mage.
I've seen wickd play a great irelia but really unimpressed with him as any other champ against good competition in the other sk games ive seen.
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United States3130 Posts
From the information in op … most pick/banned x times
Orianna- 10
Brand- 7
LS- 9
Gp – 10
Amumu - 9
Noct-9
Ashe-10
Nidalee – 10
Annie – 8
Alistar- 8
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United States37500 Posts
On August 20 2011 08:24 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 08:15 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 20 2011 05:46 Niton wrote:
I think Hotshot's versatility has increased just enough to not be worth banning out / able to be banned out, which makes him an incredibly scary player. I also think, though, that he's not the player the enemy team should be banning out - Elementz can play Alistar now (kind of) and Sona, and they really don't want him on another role.
Any combination of bans/picks that forces Elementz to play a support he's not good at (or even better, forces another CLG player onto a support because they're better than Elementz at it) would be a much better way at neutralizing CLG than giving Hotshot a character he's good but not great at. Elementz is on full time support duty for CLG now. So trying to snipe Elementz now means free reign for HSGG and possibly jiji/Chauster. Real dumb. Real terror. But he can't actually play support at the same level as any of the other supports left in the tournament, and he's easily one of the worst supports on any of the tournament-going teams. If you can force him to either play a champion he can't play or force CLG to attempt to have him lane, you'd garner a huge advantage. You could probably do the same thing to Epik with PGB lol. Look how much more well rounded Nyph or Xpecial are at playing supports than Elementz - even though people say the role's not important, putting someone on a champion they can't really play doesn't end well in tournament games.
Ali, Taric, Sona, Soraka, Janna. You can't even ban all the possible supports. And this isn't even counting babysit bot lane champions like Garen/Blitz.
Elementz is no Xpecial, I've said this numerous time during livereport but I really think you're underestimating him as a player. Support isn't that hard to play, especially in a coordinated 5v5 situation like at GC. You really can do no wrong. The worst Elementz can do atm is fail initiate with Alistar. You put him on a more passive support, what is he going to do to fuck up?
No EU team can afford to snipe supports when CLG has HSGG and jiji around. Not one of the bans can be wasted on Ele.
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hotshot's "versatility" is playing one good game as Jax, if teams just ban cho and nidalee he will be the same as before. Jiji won't be playing any APs, no jungle worth banning every game. I'm hoping to see saintvicious yi or hotshot morde this tomorrow.
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On August 20 2011 08:56 zulu_nation8 wrote:
hotshot's "versatility" is playing one good game as Jax, if teams just ban cho and nidalee he will be the same as before. Jiji won't be playing any APs, no jungle worth banning every game. I'm hoping to see saintvicious yi or hotshot morde this tomorrow.
He played like 4 tourney games in the past month as jax and won everyone of them...
And a few as galio, which is deadly with fiddle jungle which eu hasn't played against much and between him and alistar is a lot of caster proof cc which mil and fnatic like to run.
They could always go dyrus meta 4 tanks and singed 
Haven't seen hotshot play morde in a tourney yet but he rapes on his stream as him but solo que so not that good an indicator.
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On August 20 2011 08:56 zulu_nation8 wrote:
hotshot's "versatility" is playing one good game as Jax, if teams just ban cho and nidalee he will be the same as before. Jiji won't be playing any APs, no jungle worth banning every game. I'm hoping to see saintvicious yi or hotshot morde this tomorrow.
His Jax and Galio are legit good.
But I think with Hotshot being able to play multiple champions now, CLG is looking really scary again. You can't ban all the champs that they want to play.
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On August 20 2011 08:56 zulu_nation8 wrote:
hotshot's "versatility" is playing one good game as Jax, if teams just ban cho and nidalee he will be the same as before. Jiji won't be playing any APs, no jungle worth banning every game. I'm hoping to see saintvicious yi or hotshot morde this tomorrow.
Considering how the EU teams never countered Hotshot's farm fest play style Saint's Yi could do really well. They would have to last pick him though, I don't think a top level team would let an early Yi pick go unpunished. I don't really expect Mil to be a problem for CLG the way the games have been going. Mil looked unimpressive against Solomid and CLG recently stomped them.
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On August 20 2011 10:35 Jacobs Ladder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 08:56 zulu_nation8 wrote:
hotshot's "versatility" is playing one good game as Jax, if teams just ban cho and nidalee he will be the same as before. Jiji won't be playing any APs, no jungle worth banning every game. I'm hoping to see saintvicious yi or hotshot morde this tomorrow. Considering how the EU teams never countered Hotshot's farm fest play style Saint's Yi could do really well. They would have to last pick him though, I don't think a top level team would let an early Yi pick go unpunished. I don't really expect Mil to be a problem for CLG the way the games have been going. Mil looked unimpressive against Solomid and CLG recently stomped them.
I... what? Yi?
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United States37500 Posts
For all the stompage CLG delivered TSM last week at the China Qualis, consider this week and GC a clean slate. TSM looked very clean on Day 1. CLG is by no means going into the semis as a clear favorite.
And I strongly doubt TSM will make the EU mistake of allowing HSGG to free farm uncontested the first 20 minutes.
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On August 20 2011 10:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
For all the stompage CLG delivered TSM last week at the China Qualis, consider this week and GC a clean slate. TSM looked very clean on Day 1. CLG is by no means going into the semis as a clear favorite.
And I strongly doubt TSM will make the EU mistake of allowing HSGG to free farm uncontested the first 20 minutes.
I thought the semifinals would be CLG vs. Mill and TSM vs. fnatic because CLG and TSM got first place in their groups? Don't see why the semifinals would be first place vs. first place and second place vs. second place.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On August 20 2011 10:48 Nehsb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 10:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
For all the stompage CLG delivered TSM last week at the China Qualis, consider this week and GC a clean slate. TSM looked very clean on Day 1. CLG is by no means going into the semis as a clear favorite.
And I strongly doubt TSM will make the EU mistake of allowing HSGG to free farm uncontested the first 20 minutes. I thought the semifinals would be CLG vs. Mill and TSM vs. fnatic because CLG and TSM got first place in their groups? Don't see why the semifinals would be first place vs. first place and second place vs. second place.
They're not playing each other in the semis. I think Neo is talking about what would happen if they meet in the finals.
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United States37500 Posts
I just meant Semi finals onwards. Don't overestimate yourself/underestimate your competition.
Didn't imply CLG would meet TSM tomorrow (although I am totally rooting for a NA v NA final~)
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Yes elementz isn't a super top support but he is not bad compared to most other teams. Shit jiji has died 3 times in pool play. And it doesn't much matter how clg is outplaying every other position right now, say all you want about jiji being outfarmed his positioning is way better than the other carries right now, and hotshot has finally stopped solo farming top all game and has been roaming a ton. Also eu junglers seem quite weak compared to oddone and saint thus far.
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On August 20 2011 11:09 NeoIllusions wrote:
I just meant Semi finals onwards. Don't overestimate yourself/underestimate your competition.
Didn't imply CLG would meet TSM tomorrow (although I am totally rooting for a NA v NA final~)
I really am since clg vs tsm has it's own meta due to how much they face each other.
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They're restreaming fnatic vs. SK right now.... The lee sin pick in lane to go against brand was really really weird. Yeah, lee has some seriously boss sustain, but maxing W means you are sacrificing pretty much all of your midgame damage by neglecting Q and E.
I think Irelia would be a good counterpick to Brand, because the strong damage output of Brand will get held back by the fact that every time he tries to harass Irelia, she has a EW combo that can bring her back to even footing...
I don't know, this is just theorycraft. What does beat Brand these days?
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On August 20 2011 08:22 Eppa! wrote:
I think Wickd was nervous, the times I have played against him and watched his stream he has played better. He is like 17 and looks to have fallen apart during the tournament generally he has a really solid defensive game but he got killed early and as Lanewick your fucked, and lane Lee Sin he didn't dodge Brand stuff very well. Hotshots Jax is pretty terrible, FX didn't counter play, no way a top team would pick Jax in a do or die match. If it were another team I would simply ban Orianna, Nid, Sona and first pick Alistar. Hotshots Cho is good but a Cho can only do so much unless your team snowballs with him he will not get scary. Don't expect comebacks though.
What makes you think that?
I don't think anyone can question that Jax is a really strong champion anymore.
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On August 20 2011 10:26 dnastyx wrote:
But I think with Hotshot being able to play multiple champions now, CLG is looking really scary again. You can't ban all the champs that they want to play.
This is pretty much how I feel right now - if you can successfully ban out ANY member of CLG, forcing them to either play a champion they're unskilled with or change roles, it's Elementz.
Hotshot - Nidalee, Jax, Cho'gath, Galio, maybe Morde
Saintvicious - Amumu, Nocturne, Alistar, Fiddlesticks, Gangplank, e: LEE SIN, THE BLIND MONK
Salce - Any viable AP, Salce = 2good
Jiji (AD) - Ashe, Corki, Vayne, Caitlyn
Elementz - Sona, Janna, Alistar
<armchair commentator>
He can probably also play Soraka, since she's super easy to not lose lane with right now, but honestly? I think with the right ban strategy, you could get rid of Nidalee and still force CLG into a worse bottom lane composition.
Elementz is a good player, but he's practiced for support for the last forever, and even then you don't see him solo-queueing support the way you see other CLG members solo-queue their roles. He doesn't really have the role depth you'd ideally want on a player, and I don't think his other roles are on par with his opponents at Gamescom.
With all that said, though, it might not be possible (or worth it) to actually ban Elementz out of his 'good' supports, because it would mean you'd likely be facing off against two of Nidalee, Orianna, Gangplank and Fiddlesticks. But I do think it's something to look for, even if it's just a third ban to force a disadvantaged bottom lane. Even then, you might be able to see Hotshot's sidelane Jax and Jiji do solo-lane Corki or something idk~
</armchair commentator>
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EPT
