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On February 13 2013 14:30 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 10:21 necrosed wrote:
I'm slightly interested in Siege and Early level pushing comps (much to GSG's game against CJ Entus). I figured that you need the enemy to pick bad-pushing champions on top and bot (Like Shen/Lee Sin), but your own composition may vary.
What you do need, however, is:
1. A way to leash lizard/blue to you. You can do that with Blitzcrank/Syndra/Trundle (only lizard).
2. Very strong lane-pushing level 1-onwards. (They had Cait TF Heimer. I'm thinking of other viable picks).
3. A teleporter that clears fast and scales really well. (Olaf).
So, ideas for #2 and #3? I've been thinking about AD Malzahar and Jarvan, but nothing else comes to mind. For #3, Renekton and Riven come to mind.
Also, need people to help me test this as well! AD malz wont work at all, he devours mana to get anything done, the game will be mostly over by the time he gets enough mana or enough ad to do anything, pick one. honestly their really isn't much to an early push like that, the champs they picked are really the best for their roles
Wow. Your way of thinking makes me a little frustrated. "the champs they picked are really the best for their roles". Big words.
I'm pretty sure TF isn't the best here. He's just a great first pick that can be flexible enough to make it to other comps while also being good in this one. Cait has added utility from her traps, but if you go for pure pushing, Sivir is probably stronger. If you want to stay in good pusher/utility side, we have ashe with slow + ridiculous level 6.
I want a brainstorm of possibilities. Something that works just as fine, with other utilities not THE BEST COMP EVAH. Flexibility is important in drafting comps, and that's what I want. Not "NOPE THAT IS THE BEST COMP CASE CLOSED".
On other matters:
My experience with Runaan's Hurricane has been very negative. It always felt to me as a win-more kind of item, or a way to compensate that you're not well-positioned enough. An AD carry's role is to kill champions that, most of the time, had been peeled already by your team. Runaan's feels more like a peeler kind of item, where you deal a lot of AoE damage and requires you to be near 2+ enemies, which makes positioning for that a living hell.
I could see it going for AD Tresh or some short-ranged bruiser, but for AD carry, as sexy as it sounds to have multiple procs, it does not feel good at all.
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Hurricane on Cait is fine- you get off a headshot like every other shot, and you can get like 1400 damage crits pretty regularly with enough AD. The real issue is, if you get it you have to sacrifice a phantom dancer (or shiv), bloodthirster, or your defensive item. Which makes it highly situational at best.
Machine gun Cait is pretty fun though, bonus points if you have a Nunu.
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Sivir pushes creep waves plenty fast, but starts having issues when it comes to wailing on towers that early on, because of her short range. Graves has the same issue. It's not an issue so big that it makes them not work, but it's something you yhave to keep in mind. I'd like the Ashe idea more if she didnt have issues with the super long CD on volley early on. Maybe with Lulu support to help push with glitterlance. Glitterlance is SO GOOD at lane pushing early, and lulu has an support kit that is excellent for halting counter-aggression against your pushes.
For support, Lulu, Nunu, Soraka, Janna are all awesome. Sona is alright, and might be picked for other reasons.
Mid, most common mids have good waveclear, but mediocre tower-killing abilities (except for TF and a few others)
I don't see why you need to run malzahar as AD - even as AP, those voidlings are a towerpushing terror. You could also do something odd, like run AD runes for the super early push, but build him AP (you only msis out on 15 AP and 8 mpen)
AD runes are already pretty good for AP characters' early laning anyway, especially if you want to push super hard pre-6.
Jarvan has another excellent trait for super early towerpushing - an AS aura (flag) Definitely give him a closer look! He could be a great jungler for this, too.
Why do you want to buff steal so badly preceding this push? Is it for the early power for one of your own + weakening their jungler, or is there another reason? Why do you need to pull the buff over the wall when stealing it - why not just do a more standard invade with a strong level1 team (most of the picks so far are at least moderately strong level 1, with a few exceptions.)
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I'd like to see an early pushing comp too, and I agree that TF was not really a good choice by GSG. I would have gone with Ziggs. Excellent poke and waveclear and his passive deals a ton of damage to towers.
I also don't think Blitzcrank was all that necessary. I understood the Caitlyn, Olaf and Heimer picks.
Ziggs + Caitlyn + Heimerdinger would be very hard to attack into early game. Mines and turrets and traps everywhar.
I might even go with a Jarvan support. Drop the flag and everybody attacks the turret faster and has more armor.
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United States10536 Posts
Twisted Fate was an excellent choice, much better than Ziggs. The problem with Ziggs, and most other champions you might suggest, is that they're limited by mana. Twisted Fate has infinite mana due to blue cards, which incidentally also increase his damage to turrets. On top of that his ultimate is a good tool for defending turrets or maintaining pressure.
Unless you run a Soraka support (who is a useful support for pushing, but not for disengaging) pretty much any other mana-based AP mid (save perhaps Malzahar) would have problems.
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On February 14 2013 01:00 Ketara wrote:
I'd like to see an early pushing comp too, and I agree that TF was not really a good choice by GSG. I would have gone with Ziggs. Excellent poke and waveclear and his passive deals a ton of damage to towers.
I also don't think Blitzcrank was all that necessary. I understood the Caitlyn, Olaf and Heimer picks.
Ziggs + Caitlyn + Heimerdinger would be very hard to attack into early game. Mines and turrets and traps everywhar.
I might even go with a Jarvan support. Drop the flag and everybody attacks the turret faster and has more armor.
TF is picked over ziggs and other classic pushers because of 2 reasons:
1. He brings low CD hard CC. Its incredibly important to make it hard to just engage onto the push. If you have just pushers like malz they will just hard engage and destroy you. You have no tower to hide under.
2. He has essentially infinite sustain with blue cards. You are operating on an incredibly low econ for this game, and you can't just back whenever. You have to stay out pushing constantly. You are going to be running on one or two dorans rings for basically the whole game, and TF can continue to function in this environment. Ziggs, especially early, takes an ungodly amount of mana to push hard, and his passive requires even more to be effective vs turrets (need to spam). You will be OOM and worthless.
Stuff like running sivir instead of cait is just a absolutely terrible idea. Cait is run because of her tower sieging ability, which sivir is abysmal at. Sivir also has the same issue in that her mana cost are extremely high in order to push, she wont be able to sustain at all.
Its more important to the comp to think about what each champ brings to the table other than pushing power. You don't actually need too much push from each person to instaclear a wave when you have 4 people. The consideration of who does really well in low econ/sustain and is hard to engage into is far more important.
EDIT: lol Seuss too fast for me
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I don't think I agree. Have the support start the game with a mana manipulator and have Ziggs run Clarity. That will keep your mana issues until 7 mins when you can give Ziggs blue buff. Problem solved.
Ziggs is much harder to engage into early game than TF, even without the hard CC (which Ziggs does have)
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United States10536 Posts
There are several problems with Clarity in this case. First, your mana pool is going to be severely stunted due to impaired leveling, limiting Clarity's returns. Second, combat summoners are still important even in a hard push comp, you still need to be able to win fights when they occur (and quite a few fights and skirmishes did occur in GSG vs CJ Entus).
Having to run Clarity and Mana Manip for Ziggs to work are severe handicaps on the composition. It's not that Ziggs is without merit, but TF is clearly a more versatile and less demanding option.
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Support starting mana manip means 0 pots 0 wards except for the biscuit / explorer
When your support is just as important for pushing the lanes as your mid (Lulu, for example) that's not really an acceptable tradeoff. Doubly so because you're vulnerable to ganks from higher level solo laners coming to defend their turret.
I think they went with blitzcrank because he makes it much more dangerous to position aggressively when defending the turret. Yes, he doesn't directly assist the push, but he provides a way to zone people out even when they're cowering under their turret.
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Remember that the comp can't scream 4-5 man mid push either, or the other team will be able to preemptively sit 3-4 in mid and properly defend. One of the keys to the successful game with the Heimer strat was that by the time the enemy team reacted the 1st tower was basically down, there was vision down to see transitions... the snowball was rolling. In the game where it failed CJ kind of sniffed it out(and also had a pretty solid anti-push lineup) and dominated after it failed to gain any momentum.
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Ok, so this seems like the right thread for my notion that Thresh SHOULD have a viable bruiser build.
+ Show Spoiler [Thought Process] +
Reasoning
1: Q Passive. Souls + a scaling percentage of AD as magic damage on hit. This is guaranteed to proc for the minimum value every swing, with a big first swing.
2: Primary passive. The free AP is kind of meh, since he's mana inefficient with kind of pathetic coefficients. However, you can easily get 60% or more armor without buying any armor items.
Due to these two factors, of good harass (think of the first scaled up hit as being like a Jarvan first hit), and amazing armor, he wants to be a bruiser. Especially with strong initiation and decent wave clear, as well as being simple as hell to last-hit with.
So far, my best success has come with an early Warmog's into Wits End. Reasoning being, HP is good, especially when you already get one resist free. Attack speed lets you proc your Q passive more often, and you can budget for some MR since you don't pay a dime for armor. The extra magic damage on hit from Wits End just makes your thwack that much better.
Spirit Visage is a no brainer, HP, MR, and ups your HP regen.
I've tinkered with Zeke's, just because a few extra points of damage buffs your Q passive, life steal is good for sustain, especially with Visage, and making it an aura to help your ADC is just gravy.
Unfortunately, as we know, I'm mediocre at best, and better as support than anything else, so I'm having trouble putting heavy testing on it. However, against bots, I've had ~60% of both resists, ~4500 HP, and that's with every auto attack getting nice bonus magic damage. Combine that with awesome initiation, and a huge first swing onto a squishy, and you can do unholy shit in a fight.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
(Note, I've tried building a couple of AD items since that also scales into his Q passive, however, it tends to not let you crush health as hard, which is what makes him able to dive and be a persistent nuisance in the back lines.)
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I don't see how Mana Manipulator in the early push comp isn't 100% the absolute best item to have.
Yes it means the support doesn't have wards, but does the support have to have the wards? They can start mana manip and 1 ward and the 2 "mages" in the comp can each start 2 wards instead of a faerie charm, and the team ends up with more wards AND more mana regen.
This is supposing you'd need all that many wards. I don't think you'd need a ton of them. 1 per player is probably fine imo, that's how much a team normally starts with, it's just all on the support.
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I hate how a lot of the time in ranked I feel like I'm playing against bad internet connections rather than players.
It's like trying to swim upstream in a river where the water sporadically just disappears and you can't get anywhere.
Oh wait, this isn't general discussion. I hate how a lot of the time in forums I feel like I'm playing against my own stupidity rather than other peoples.
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Ok So I have been testing alternative ADC itemization. This game I tried Bloodthrister first, into Runnan's, right into BotRK I also tried Zypher after due to reason i state below.
I was the only one on my team doing well. Top was failing (although he did shape up after a laning phase) Mid was failing, Jungle was useless. But we turned it around the enemy team was zerging me with Singed Noc and Fizz. With Runnan's hurricane I was able to out put quote alot of dmg. It actually felt ALOT stronger then a typical IE PD build. at the same level of gold. Also the biggest thing i noticed that helped alot was with red I felt VERY strong. It's an Aoe true dmg slow on three targets. Also I picked Cait so I could make use of always autoing. Also the BotRK seemed like it did quote well. It countered that HP stacking fizz pretty nicly and the fact that It would be applied three fold was amazing. Also it constantly helped my passive headshot. Like I thought I would see a big reduction in my single target dmg with out IE and PD But it wasn't even noticeable. Infact it felt like more dmg.
I'm Also considering trying to add in Frozen Mallet to the build for Consistent AOE slow. But with me having red all the time. I wasn't to compelled to get it. Instead I got Zypher after adding more to my attack speed and helping me with movement speed. I was worried about not getting PD cause I would not have any MS to kite. But Zypher solved all those problems I had alot more MS, The dmg stats were great and the tenacity ofc is always a plus. This build helps alot for that one bruiser Tank that is really hard for you to deal with. Because it helps you do more dmg to him (with headshot) and helps you dmg the other people around as well. I was gonna get Last whisper as my last item but the game ended before that. I didn't have any defense item but this game I didn't need one either.
Here are the results of the game.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/acwI1OM.png)
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Just out of curiosity, Jay, since you're trying nonstandard Caitlyn anyways, had you considered trying a mastery page with some support for pickpocket? Since she has ungodly poke range anyways, you could possibly speed up your build a fair bit.
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On February 14 2013 04:50 JingleHell wrote:Ok, so this seems like the right thread for my notion that Thresh SHOULD have a viable bruiser build. + Show Spoiler [Thought Process] +
Reasoning
1: Q Passive. Souls + a scaling percentage of AD as magic damage on hit. This is guaranteed to proc for the minimum value every swing, with a big first swing.
2: Primary passive. The free AP is kind of meh, since he's mana inefficient with kind of pathetic coefficients. However, you can easily get 60% or more armor without buying any armor items.
Due to these two factors, of good harass (think of the first scaled up hit as being like a Jarvan first hit), and amazing armor, he wants to be a bruiser. Especially with strong initiation and decent wave clear, as well as being simple as hell to last-hit with.
So far, my best success has come with an early Warmog's into Wits End. Reasoning being, HP is good, especially when you already get one resist free. Attack speed lets you proc your Q passive more often, and you can budget for some MR since you don't pay a dime for armor. The extra magic damage on hit from Wits End just makes your thwack that much better. Spirit Visage is a no brainer, HP, MR, and ups your HP regen. I've tinkered with Zeke's, just because a few extra points of damage buffs your Q passive, life steal is good for sustain, especially with Visage, and making it an aura to help your ADC is just gravy. Unfortunately, as we know, I'm mediocre at best, and better as support than anything else, so I'm having trouble putting heavy testing on it. However, against bots, I've had ~60% of both resists, ~4500 HP, and that's with every auto attack getting nice bonus magic damage. Combine that with awesome initiation, and a huge first swing onto a squishy, and you can do unholy shit in a fight. Any thoughts or suggestions? (Note, I've tried building a couple of AD items since that also scales into his Q passive, however, it tends to not let you crush health as hard, which is what makes him able to dive and be a persistent nuisance in the back lines.)
Why not Hexdrinker over Wit's End if you want an aggressive MR item? Q's AD ratio seems like something you should really build around, at least a little bit - it's +200% TOTAL AD after waiting a bit or landing a hook. You don't get that out of Wit's.
This guy goes something along the lines of BT + Shiv for his offensive core, and builds tanky aside from that. Shiv provides a nifty burst along with AS for beating on someone with a big stack of souls.
But holy shit that first auto HURTS.
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On February 15 2013 01:37 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 04:50 JingleHell wrote:Ok, so this seems like the right thread for my notion that Thresh SHOULD have a viable bruiser build. + Show Spoiler [Thought Process] +
Reasoning
1: Q Passive. Souls + a scaling percentage of AD as magic damage on hit. This is guaranteed to proc for the minimum value every swing, with a big first swing.
2: Primary passive. The free AP is kind of meh, since he's mana inefficient with kind of pathetic coefficients. However, you can easily get 60% or more armor without buying any armor items.
Due to these two factors, of good harass (think of the first scaled up hit as being like a Jarvan first hit), and amazing armor, he wants to be a bruiser. Especially with strong initiation and decent wave clear, as well as being simple as hell to last-hit with.
So far, my best success has come with an early Warmog's into Wits End. Reasoning being, HP is good, especially when you already get one resist free. Attack speed lets you proc your Q passive more often, and you can budget for some MR since you don't pay a dime for armor. The extra magic damage on hit from Wits End just makes your thwack that much better. Spirit Visage is a no brainer, HP, MR, and ups your HP regen. I've tinkered with Zeke's, just because a few extra points of damage buffs your Q passive, life steal is good for sustain, especially with Visage, and making it an aura to help your ADC is just gravy. Unfortunately, as we know, I'm mediocre at best, and better as support than anything else, so I'm having trouble putting heavy testing on it. However, against bots, I've had ~60% of both resists, ~4500 HP, and that's with every auto attack getting nice bonus magic damage. Combine that with awesome initiation, and a huge first swing onto a squishy, and you can do unholy shit in a fight. Any thoughts or suggestions? (Note, I've tried building a couple of AD items since that also scales into his Q passive, however, it tends to not let you crush health as hard, which is what makes him able to dive and be a persistent nuisance in the back lines.) Why not Hexdrinker over Wit's End if you want an aggressive MR item? Q's AD ratio seems like something you should really build around, at least a little bit - it's +200% TOTAL AD after waiting a bit or landing a hook. You don't get that out of Wit's. This guy goes something along the lines of BT + Shiv for his offensive core, and builds tanky aside from that. Shiv provides a nifty burst along with AS for beating on someone with a big stack of souls. But holy shit that first auto HURTS.
I've considered that too. Basically, I personally prefer Wits for the attack speed as well, since you get a proc for your minimum damage (souls + some percent AD, I think it's in the 10-15% range, but I haven't done the math) with every swing.
Hexdrinker's AD bonus to the first swing is only slightly better at max rank than the Wits End proc, with Maw being a fair bit better, but without the additional 40% attack speed for sustained damage.
I don't build a super heavy AD item like a BT because I like the HP more, you're GOING to be a focus target when you have a health bar like a Cho or Mundo and initiate like the unholy offspring of Blitz and Leona.
Basically, since your minimum (sustained damage) proc of your Q passive is based more off of souls than AD, Wits starts letting you swing for that base damage from souls more often in the mid-late game. It helps make you stay relevant after the initiation and first hit of a fight.
That's at least my thought process, I've tried both, and I prefer Wits personally. But I appreciate the feedback.
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You're counting the AD bonus on first swing from hexdrinker, but forgetting that theres also 25 AD... which applies to EVERY swing.
Also remember that 'first swing' timer fills to full if you land a hook (even if its on a creep!)
I also think Hexdrinker's antimagic passive is better than wit's, and the item is very cheap - cheap enough that you could afford a recurve bow with the money saved. (1350 for 25 AD, some MR, and the MR passive!) Maybe a stinger to eventually turn into zephyr?
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On February 15 2013 02:09 sylverfyre wrote:
You're counting the AD bonus on first swing from hexdrinker, but forgetting that theres also 25 AD... which applies to EVERY swing.
Also remember that 'first swing' timer fills to full if you land a hook (even if its on a creep!)
I also think Hexdrinker's antimagic passive is better than wit's, and the item is very cheap. (1350 for 25 AD, some MR, and the MR passive!)
It's not that I'm forgetting the AD. It's that I prefer the long term value of the Wits End. Compared to Maw (which seems fair, given it's almost mandatory to start HP, so either way it's a slower item), you're doing slightly (~20 before resists) damage less per hit, but you're bringing your attack speed up by a whopping 40%.
If we assume level 11 or so to finish one of the two, you're looking at bringing your attack speed up to ~1/sec from ~.7. Since your Souls collected (average of ~3/wave, + champion kills and any jungle camps you visit) converts to straight damage on every swing, they very quickly account for more sustained damage than the AD from a Maw would. Even if you assume you're only at ~55 souls at this point (conveniently the same as maw's AD), and guessing at roughly 10% of AD going to minimum proc, that's 55+55+6 being added to your base damage for Maw. 116. With Wits, it's 42+55+.4(42+55). The wits comes out to 135.8. And that gap only opens up the more souls you farm.
I'm sure there's a more perfect formula, that's just the napkin math version, but it provides a pretty good rationale, IMO. It might be slightly worse for dealing with incoming magic damage, but if you go Warmogs first, you're going to be so damn tanky that if you're needing the shield proc you probably shouldn't have tried to 1v5 them.
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EPT
