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Kennen, The Heart of the Tempest
Spoilered old OP is miserably out of date. Check the latest discussion in thread for something more relevant.
(Real men play CDR boots Kennen with a page full of energy runes.)
+ Show Spoiler +STOP. Before you spend any time in this thread, I suggest reading Salce's guide. He's widely regarded as the best Kennen in the game. ... Did you get all that? OK. Let's continue. There's a lot of good stuff in that guide, but I don't mirror it completely. My guide is for Summoner's Rift, I don't play the treeline. Summoner Spells: Flash/Ghost I'll be swapping in Teleport after Flash gets the shaft. Masteries: 9/0/21RunesQuints: Movespeed Red: Magic Penetration Yellow: Energy Per 5 Per Level Blue: Magic Resistance Per level Ep5plvl yellows are a must. They noticeably boost your skill spam, even moreso with blue buff. (Kennen is a monster with blue, by the way. Hog it). There's some leeway with the Quints. Salce runs flat HP. Mogwai swears by flat AP. I was using flat EP5 up until I heard about them pulling flash out of the game, so I'm experimenting with movespeed to compensate my positioning. It'll depend on how good the flash replacement is. Skill Order: QWWEQR / R>Q>W>E The sign of a well designed champ: All 4 of Kennen's skills, and his passive, are brilliant. You'd love to have them all maxed, but you have to choose. Q makes laning a breeze, (as long as you can land it) which is why I prioritize it. You want that early second point in W so it'll come off CD before your marks wear off. The harassing fun never stops! note on items:
This progression is no longer valid. There's been some major item nerfs/buffs in the last few patches: Randuin's nerf, Zhonya's is out, CDR boots are in, etc.. I quit LoL before these changes happened so I have no real say anymore. From pure common sense theorycrafting, Rylais and Deathcap should be your go-to items.Item Build:Doran's Shield + Health Potion Heart of Gold Sorc Boots Rylais Zhonyas / Abyssal Sceptrer / Randuin's Omen (in some order as dictated by the game.) Need mres? Go Abyssal. Is there a snowballing enemy Twitch? Finish Omen. Want to call down the thunder? Zhonyas. The HoG is easy for me to rationalize: I'm not a fan of Haunting Guise, while Omen is pretty much my favorite item, and it has amazing synergy with Kennen's ult. Kennen loves survivability. If you end up in late late game, get a void staff and sell your sorc boots for mercs or tabi. PlaystyleI don't have much to add beyond what Salce said. Be really aggressive in lane as soon as you're level 3 - force them to zone themselves or eat a second W + stun, and a few more autoattacks. While being virtually ungankable with flash, ghost, and E up. It's kind of unfair tbh. Learn when to rice and when to hang with the team. LaningKennen is one of the strongest 1v1 champs in the game. He thrives in mid. However, there are a few champs that you should avoid laning against, if you can help it. Kassadin: His passive laughs in your face, his Q eats you alive. You will not win. I have no idea why Salce doesn't warn people about this guy. Nidalee: Spammable heal, ranged harass. She will eventually wear you down. Miss Fortune/Morgana: If you can't dodge skillshots, you will lose. Good luck trying to force Morg out of the lane (let alone kill her) but a farming stalemate is doable. Kat: Last time I went mid against a tank setup, I got owned. Maybe I'm just bad. Her daggers are pretty annoying.
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I really want to get Kennen but I keep buying random runes and champions and shit and never hit 6k. =(
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HoG rush? That's interesting.
What's your reasoning behind stalling boots/rylai's for it?
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it's not much of a stall (I don't even get Guise like Salce does) and I'm a sucker for the early tankiness, free gold, and Randuin's is best item ever.
obviously if you were up against some weird all magic damage team skip the HoG/Randuins altogether.
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United States37500 Posts
Need Guise.
Need Magic Pen.
Omen would be nice after Guise, Rylai's, Zhonyas I guess. But any delay on those 3, your ulti tends to tickle, rather than omgrape.
:[[[[
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On November 05 2010 11:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
Need Guise.
Need Magic Pen.
Omen would be nice after Guise, Rylai's, Zhonyas I guess. But any delay on those 3, your ulti tends to tickle, rather than omgrape.
:[[[[
oh my grape!
I agree with Neo, and just one question for OP, what are EP5 quints?
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Energy per 5 but those are only available on yellow. You can get quints to have a bigger energy pool though which a few people like.
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it's bad to delay that rylais for HoG. you also need z-ring first if the game is leading to early teamfights.
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I don't play Kennen but I was just wondering, can someone explain to me the advantages of being AP over DPS?
Is it the fact that his Ult makes that much of the difference in a team fight as opposed to if he went DPS? I was always under the impression that his stun passive made him a great DPS champ.
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I have this irrational hatred of Haunting Guise, it feels too much like a dead end item to me.
On November 05 2010 11:49 Darkchylde wrote:
Energy per 5 but those are only available on yellow. You can get quints to have a bigger energy pool though which a few people like.
Quintessence of Meditation: +1.5 Energy Regen Per 5 seconds.
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he's a highly underestimated DPS, but he's probably a slightly better caster. they play really differently, AP Kennen is a monster initiator and chaser/burster and AD Kennen is one of the lower damage ranged carries, but is really resilient and packs a lot of utility with an escape and a ton of stuns.
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United States37500 Posts
His W and R are why he's so great as AP than DPS.
He's super pokey.
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On November 05 2010 13:29 NeoIllusions wrote:
His W and R are why he's so great as AP than DPS.
He's super pokey.
I think you mean Q not W, his W is why he can DPS.
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Randuin first used to be my Kennen build, but that was before his buff. Nowadays I just rush zhonya most of the time because Slicing Maestrom + Flash + Zhonya is probably one of the strongest ways of starting a fight, especially if you land right on top of their carry.
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why would you only start playng aggressive with kennen at 5? At 2, you can play the "count to 5" game, and that harass is only limited by CD. I actually max W first, considering that unlike Q, it's guaranteed to land with an autoattack. It also does more AOE damage during Teamfights.
Also Haunting Guise is good people. 20 mpen, ap and hp is damn legit.
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On November 05 2010 20:00 LightRailCoyote wrote:
why would you only start playng aggressive with kennen at 5? At 2, you can play the "count to 5" game, and that harass is only limited by CD. I actually max W first, considering that unlike Q, it's guaranteed to land with an autoattack. It also does more AOE damage during Teamfights.
Also Haunting Guise is good people. 20 mpen, ap and hp is damn legit.
I play passive unless I'm confident I will deal more damage to them than they will to me. If I'm in an evenly match lane, this usually means I'm only poking here and there until I hit 4-5.
I used to max W first but Salce made a Q believer out of me.
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you should probably be more aggressive in certain matchups. Kennen can (and should) really boss some people around starting at level 2.
W > Q is something you can pull off vs. Melee heroes who tend to be amongst their creep when they're last hitting, but in general, being able to poke for larger amounts and easily last hit from far away are more valuable things in lane. I do actually switch it up depending on lane (W > Q vs. Pantheon, herpdederp), but if you're just going to stick to one, you should stick to Q > W as it's generally better.
the problem with haunting guise is that it delays z-ring and/or rylai's by 1400 gold. it's a great generic caster item, but Kennen's skill set really needs those 2 items and as such, I can never justify a mid-range item that will delay them (same reason I object to myopia's suggested HoG before rylai's build). on less item dependant casters... yea, HG + Sorc shoes is great, but on Kennen, I don't think you can afford to slow that first item by that much.
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I used to skill Q harder, but I found that against kennen, people just stand in their creepwave, which made my Q harder to land consistently. Q is better for solo top,where there are heroes who like to abuse things like bushes (lol Pantheon).
I see your point on HGuise, though. I'll have to reconsider. Usually when i buy it, it's when i B with like 1800 Gold and i can snatch it + boots.
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My build on Kennen is currently sorc boots -> zring. E -> R -> zring can almost win a teamfight on its own, and delaying that for rylai's/guise has never felt right to me. Also, there's video on loco's stream of me abusing some more Kassadin mid. If loco hadn't stumbled on a half health WW in jungle (as full health Olaf) I would've had first blood. I agree that it's a hard matchup, but if you commit (either to staying back and farming with shuriken, or staying close and fighting back) it feels doable. There were a couple times where he'd Q me, but the ball moved so slow that I could Q him back, AND land a W before I was silenced.
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If you have blue CDR runes + the masteries you mentioned and skill like this:
QWEWQR then mass R>Q>W>E
Your W cooldown will be down before your oponent's MOTS will be gone. Quite helpfull at early laning.
furthermore I find that rushing rylai is a must. It makes getting away from you nearly impossible in combination with boots of swiftness (movement speed 3) instead of using something like movement speed quints I prefer these, because I don't feel like I truely need any of the other boots.
If i need magic penetration I'll grab void staff. If i want pure ap I go zhonya. If you get zhonya just for the active you are doing something wrong, during your ulti you should use W and spam shurikens and the very least, not hide in your gold bubble of invulnerability. Unless you get focussed ofcourse.
I use CDR blue, energyregperlvl yellow, magic penetration red and energy per 5 quints. I have been experimenting with AP quints and am still not sure what I prefer most. AP is better early whilst energy is better late. (you don't get to use your skills to the point where you use all your energy till you hit lvl 9~ ish anyway.)
Also I find that positioning is one of the most important things of Kennen, if you propperly position yourself during creep waves so you can hit your shurikens or can atleast make him fear them you are at a huge advantage. And against heroes that tend to walk inbetween the creeps you can pull the "My W can stun you even if my shurikens can't hit".
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On November 08 2010 21:42 mercurial wrote:
If you have blue CDR runes + the masteries you mentioned and skill like this:
QWEWQR then mass R>Q>W>E
Your W cooldown will be down before your oponent's MOTS will be gone. Quite helpfull at early laning.
This is cool. I don't have flat CDR blues so I can't abuse this, but now I want them.
I'd never get boots3 on Kennen though, sorc boots are too useful.
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OK just tested this, with 9% masteries CDR, lvl 2 W will come off cooldown before your marks wear off (you don't need cdr blues). That early second point is huge. I'm changing my skill leveling to QWWEQR / R>Q>W>E.
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But with blue CDR + blue buff your cd reduction will nearly be maximised giving you the 2 sec shurikens of lulz.
And it will create a bigger gap for you to use your second W on your oponent.
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OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most?
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United States37500 Posts
On November 10 2010 11:02 oberon wrote:
OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most?
Farm your Rylai's and Zhonya's faster.
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On November 10 2010 11:20 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 11:02 oberon wrote:
OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most? Farm your Rylai's and Zhonya's faster.
So if my teammates engage in a bad 4v5, I ignore them and farm? I understand the idea, but they seem to inevitably feed faster than I farm.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 10 2010 11:52 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 11:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 10 2010 11:02 oberon wrote:
OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most? Farm your Rylai's and Zhonya's faster. So if my teammates engage in a bad 4v5, I ignore them and farm? I understand the idea, but they seem to inevitably feed faster than I farm.
Pretty much. If they lack the sense to not die in a 4v5, then you being there isn't going to save them.
What you can do is get your key items so when team fights happen at 30-40 min mark, you can more or less turn the tides by yourself with Ulti + W.
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On November 10 2010 12:04 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 11:52 oberon wrote:On November 10 2010 11:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 10 2010 11:02 oberon wrote:
OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most? Farm your Rylai's and Zhonya's faster. So if my teammates engage in a bad 4v5, I ignore them and farm? I understand the idea, but they seem to inevitably feed faster than I farm. Pretty much. If they lack the sense to not die in a 4v5, then you being there isn't going to save them. What you can do is get your key items so when team fights happen at 30-40 min mark, you can more or less turn the tides by yourself with Ulti + W.
On this subject, is Rylai's-first the best teamfight strategy? I've sorta settled into a Kennen build of Sorc -> Zhonya -> Rylai or Abyssal (based on how heavy they are on casters) -> Guardian Angel -> Rylai's or Abyssal (whichever I didn't get before). This seems to gives me a bunch of EHP (+heatlh, +armor, +MR, GA) as well as significant magic damage (300+ AP with 20 pen and 20 reduction). This is also mostly geared to teamfights -- zhonya's is a HUGE deal to get an ult off, so I've been doing it before Rylai. I've read Salce's guide, and it completely doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm just doin' it wrong :/
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If you don't know the way of the rylai, you don't know the way of the Kennen.
Also if your having so much trouble winning with Kennen cause of retarded teammates, you should grab teleport and participate in the fights, this way you can easily snipe 1 or 2 ppl with just Q and W.
Thats what I do, it works well.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 10 2010 17:12 mercurial wrote:
If you don't know the way of the rylai, you don't know the way of the Kennen.
Also if your having so much trouble winning with Kennen cause of retarded teammates, you should grab teleport and participate in the fights, this way you can easily snipe 1 or 2 ppl with just Q and W.
Thats what I do, it works well.
Eh, that's not very applicable. Unless he's faced the same fail teammates before, taking Teleport when he doesn't really solve anything and it does set you back in team fights not having Flash/Ghost.
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Kennen doesn't need ghost if he has flash. Not to mention I said use Q and W, this means you don't even have to get into the fight, just steal some kills.
You already have a ghost, its called lightning rush, and if you can't do it enough then you should get your yellow energy reg runes, because those are mandatory.
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I'm actually currently running ghost/ignite, but I only have half my energy/5/18 yellows. Maybe I'll try flash/teleport, though that obviously reduces my ability to draw first blood substantially...
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On November 10 2010 12:19 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 12:04 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 10 2010 11:52 oberon wrote:On November 10 2010 11:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 10 2010 11:02 oberon wrote:
OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most? Farm your Rylai's and Zhonya's faster. So if my teammates engage in a bad 4v5, I ignore them and farm? I understand the idea, but they seem to inevitably feed faster than I farm. Pretty much. If they lack the sense to not die in a 4v5, then you being there isn't going to save them. What you can do is get your key items so when team fights happen at 30-40 min mark, you can more or less turn the tides by yourself with Ulti + W. On this subject, is Rylai's-first the best teamfight strategy? I've sorta settled into a Kennen build of Sorc -> Zhonya -> Rylai or Abyssal (based on how heavy they are on casters) -> Guardian Angel -> Rylai's or Abyssal (whichever I didn't get before). This seems to gives me a bunch of EHP (+heatlh, +armor, +MR, GA) as well as significant magic damage (300+ AP with 20 pen and 20 reduction). This is also mostly geared to teamfights -- zhonya's is a HUGE deal to get an ult off, so I've been doing it before Rylai. I've read Salce's guide, and it completely doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm just doin' it wrong :/
As I have said over and over again in TL threads regarding Kennen, when teamfights are imminent, z-ring >>>> rylai's. Rylais makes you a giant pain in the ass to 1 v 1 and a pro cleanup character but when you don't have your gold statue panic button in teamfights, you end up playing too cautiously with your ult and it really reduces your overall damage output. You need Ryali's first if it's a roamy/ganky midgame and Z-Ring first if it's a group up and push midgame.
On November 10 2010 22:55 oberon wrote:
I'm actually currently running ghost/ignite, but I only have half my energy/5/18 yellows. Maybe I'll try flash/teleport, though that obviously reduces my ability to draw first blood substantially...
flash/teleport solo top is the most helpful way to play kennen. Nothing like showing up for the first dragon fight out of nowhere with your ult to completely turn the tides.
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On November 11 2010 00:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 12:19 oberon wrote:On November 10 2010 12:04 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 10 2010 11:52 oberon wrote:On November 10 2010 11:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 10 2010 11:02 oberon wrote:
OK, I have a dilemma. My normal Kennen game is:
1) Score first blood
2) Farm
3) Teammates lose
The problem is that I'm not sure how to fix it. Without my ult, my gank seems too weak. I invariably use my ult to get my first kill, so just when I have free time, I have no ult. Is this just a matter of "this is not how you carry with Kennen"? How do I help my bad teammates most? Farm your Rylai's and Zhonya's faster. So if my teammates engage in a bad 4v5, I ignore them and farm? I understand the idea, but they seem to inevitably feed faster than I farm. Pretty much. If they lack the sense to not die in a 4v5, then you being there isn't going to save them. What you can do is get your key items so when team fights happen at 30-40 min mark, you can more or less turn the tides by yourself with Ulti + W. On this subject, is Rylai's-first the best teamfight strategy? I've sorta settled into a Kennen build of Sorc -> Zhonya -> Rylai or Abyssal (based on how heavy they are on casters) -> Guardian Angel -> Rylai's or Abyssal (whichever I didn't get before). This seems to gives me a bunch of EHP (+heatlh, +armor, +MR, GA) as well as significant magic damage (300+ AP with 20 pen and 20 reduction). This is also mostly geared to teamfights -- zhonya's is a HUGE deal to get an ult off, so I've been doing it before Rylai. I've read Salce's guide, and it completely doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm just doin' it wrong :/ As I have said over and over again in TL threads regarding Kennen, when teamfights are imminent, z-ring >>>> rylai's. Rylais makes you a giant pain in the ass to 1 v 1 and a pro cleanup character but when you don't have your gold statue panic button in teamfights, you end up playing too cautiously with your ult and it really reduces your overall damage output. You need Ryali's first if it's a roamy/ganky midgame and Z-Ring first if it's a group up and push midgame. Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 22:55 oberon wrote:
I'm actually currently running ghost/ignite, but I only have half my energy/5/18 yellows. Maybe I'll try flash/teleport, though that obviously reduces my ability to draw first blood substantially... flash/teleport solo top is the most helpful way to play kennen. Nothing like showing up for the first dragon fight out of nowhere with your ult to completely turn the tides.
In this case, I probably want utility instead of defense (which I run now). I guess it'd be:
1 teleport mastery
3 perseverance, which I just noticed is misspelled in LoL (works with d-shield, better than less time dead, I guess)
2 good hands
4 xp mastery
1 greed
2 buff mastery
1 flash mastery
3 quickness
3 intelligence
1 presence of the master
I guess the other 9 are in offense, for the apen and the CDR. That'll help land multiple Ws.
Does this make sense?
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swap 1 from perseverance (worst mastery ever) into good hands and then do
3 AP/level
1 Crit chance
4 CDR
1 Achaeic knowledge
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On November 11 2010 12:43 Mogwai wrote:
swap 1 from perseverance (worst mastery ever) into good hands and then do
3 AP/level
1 Crit chance
4 CDR
1 Achaeic knowledge
With legit health regen from dshield, why would you not want more regen? Is good hands really better?
I think we agree on offense. Then again, I think it's obvious...
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Kennen masteries are pretty straightforward, the summoner spells you use on utility + everything thats not mana and the summoner spells you have masteries for come from your points in perseverance.
So if you have flash and ghost masteries, you have only 1 point in perseverance.
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That early second point in W is insane, it basically says if you land a single mark of the storm on your opponent you can keep them up 100% of the time as long as you can get on on there during the stuns. Makes harass so much more fun
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Oh you most definitely want to max good hands over perseverance. I try not to put points into it unless it's absolutely useless to put it anywhere else.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 11 2010 12:51 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 12:43 Mogwai wrote:
swap 1 from perseverance (worst mastery ever) into good hands and then do
3 AP/level
1 Crit chance
4 CDR
1 Achaeic knowledge With legit health regen from dshield, why would you not want more regen? Is good hands really better? I think we agree on offense. Then again, I think it's obvious...
DShield + base regen is 13 hp5. If I'm reading things correctly, 3 points in Perseverance isn't even worth 1 hp5 until you hit level 6.
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On November 12 2010 15:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 12:51 oberon wrote:On November 11 2010 12:43 Mogwai wrote:
swap 1 from perseverance (worst mastery ever) into good hands and then do
3 AP/level
1 Crit chance
4 CDR
1 Achaeic knowledge With legit health regen from dshield, why would you not want more regen? Is good hands really better? I think we agree on offense. Then again, I think it's obvious... DShield + base regen is 13 hp5. If I'm reading things correctly, 3 points in Perseverance isn't even worth 1 hp5 until you hit level 6.
0.5 HP/5 is not irrelevant -- both technically (they track it, it works) and tactically (it can win lanes). You're talking about approximately one spare creep-hit per wave, I believe. It's small, but is it worse than something which is only good after you've screwed up?
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Show me one game where the extra 1 hp per 10 won a lane and I'll show you 100 where reviving 5 seconds faster saved a tower/dragon/baron.
Plus you still have to dump 2 points in Perseverance anyways
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On November 13 2010 00:36 myopia wrote:
Show me one game where the extra 1 hp per 10 won a lane and I'll show you 100 where reviving 5 seconds faster saved a tower/dragon/baron.
Plus you still have to dump 2 points in Perseverance anyways
This ^
good hands is at least 100 times better than perseverance.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 12 2010 23:34 oberon wrote:
0.5 HP/5 is not irrelevant -- both technically (they track it, it works) and tactically (it can win lanes).
0.5 HP5 won't even have regenned an auto-attack's worth of damage until like 9 minutes. I'm skeptical that situations where a single auto-attack means the difference between winning and losing a lane arise relevantly often.
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Perserverence would be better if it scaled 2/4/6% instead of 2/3/4% like it does now. That being said it's only really useful on champions which get a lot of their survivability from regen, such as Mundo - and even on them it's not really worth it over good hands.
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Just played some DPS Kennen.
Funny thing happened. TF was being annoying like usual and pushing towers, so I gank him and at this point it's late game so I have around 70% crit and 250-300 damage. I nearly killed him but I mistimed my stun so he managed to ult away right as my last shuriken was flying to finish the job.
So I think, god damnit so close, I almost had him. Now he's at bot lane being annoying (from top lane). 5 Seconds later as I'm farming, I see that I killed him. I think, wth? i don't have Liz buff...
And he tells me that my Shuriken followed him all the way from top lane to bot lane, and finished him off.
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^It happens with all projectiles interacting with all teleports, even projectile spells. It's hilarious when that gets you a kill.
Even blitzcrack's rocket grab used to do that but they fixed it T.T
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On November 13 2010 16:48 r33k wrote:
^It happens with all projectiles interacting with all teleports, even projectile spells. It's hilarious when that gets you a kill.
Even blitzcrack's rocket grab used to do that but they fixed it T.T
Also happens with Mantheon's W - just ask Smash ^^
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Ive seen someone get hit (but not killed) by a projectile fired at him just before he blue pilled home.
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Karate Kennen is fucking awsome.
His hitbox feels off though, a good amount bigger then his body.
ALSO
I HATE SHACO BOXXES
O look, I'm shaco, if I place a box behind me and you throw a shuriken at me from the other side, YOU"LL HIT THE BOX.
obv not a bug.
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On November 14 2010 02:03 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 16:48 r33k wrote:
^It happens with all projectiles interacting with all teleports, even projectile spells. It's hilarious when that gets you a kill.
Even blitzcrack's rocket grab used to do that but they fixed it T.T Also happens with Mantheon's W - just ask Smash ^^
I hate Panth's W, can't hop over walls.... -.- Tbh I'd be all in favor of rocket grab, bandage toss, aegis of zeonia and similiar spells all working past walls and castable on allies...
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On November 16 2010 18:22 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 02:03 STS17 wrote:On November 13 2010 16:48 r33k wrote:
^It happens with all projectiles interacting with all teleports, even projectile spells. It's hilarious when that gets you a kill.
Even blitzcrack's rocket grab used to do that but they fixed it T.T Also happens with Mantheon's W - just ask Smash ^^ I hate Panth's W, can't hop over walls.... -.- Tbh I'd be all in favor of rocket grab, bandage toss, aegis of zeonia and similiar spells all working past walls and castable on allies...
it hops over walls when it decides to jump you with your victim all the way to fountain
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On November 16 2010 18:22 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 02:03 STS17 wrote:On November 13 2010 16:48 r33k wrote:
^It happens with all projectiles interacting with all teleports, even projectile spells. It's hilarious when that gets you a kill.
Even blitzcrack's rocket grab used to do that but they fixed it T.T Also happens with Mantheon's W - just ask Smash ^^ I hate Panth's W, can't hop over walls.... -.- Tbh I'd be all in favor of rocket grab, bandage toss, aegis of zeonia and similiar spells all working past walls and castable on allies...
Having skillshots be castable on allies is the worst idea ever.
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On November 16 2010 22:54 TieN.nS) wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 18:22 r33k wrote:On November 14 2010 02:03 STS17 wrote:On November 13 2010 16:48 r33k wrote:
^It happens with all projectiles interacting with all teleports, even projectile spells. It's hilarious when that gets you a kill.
Even blitzcrack's rocket grab used to do that but they fixed it T.T Also happens with Mantheon's W - just ask Smash ^^ I hate Panth's W, can't hop over walls.... -.- Tbh I'd be all in favor of rocket grab, bandage toss, aegis of zeonia and similiar spells all working past walls and castable on allies... Having skillshots be castable on allies is the worst idea ever.
why
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Even when used offensively your skillshots wouldn't get cockblocked by allies anyways because of range, and I'm talking about displacing skillshots which could be used as escape mechanisms (or in case of blitz's rocket grab as a save-the-nub gamesaver, which would make him quite viable).
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Having rocket grab usable on your own team would allow blitz to grief the hell out of everyone.
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There are similiar mechanics in dota, complaining about griefing on rocket grabs would be like complaining about pirate denying minions.
Think for a second about a world without flash, a random carry gets stunned and ganked but blitz pulls him and saves the day. Ofc it would be a high risk move but I don't see other ways of balancing him without changing his passive to give him positive and negative charges.
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On November 17 2010 01:42 r33k wrote:
Even when used offensively your skillshots wouldn't get cockblocked by allies anyways because of range, and I'm talking about displacing skillshots which could be used as escape mechanisms (or in case of blitz's rocket grab as a save-the-nub gamesaver, which would make him quite viable).
How are you ever going to land a bandage toss or rocket grab with both enemy minions and your own minions in the way?
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On November 17 2010 02:18 r33k wrote:
There are similiar mechanics in dota, complaining about griefing on rocket grabs would be like complaining about pirate denying minions.
Think for a second about a world without flash, a random carry gets stunned and ganked but blitz pulls him and saves the day. Ofc it would be a high risk move but I don't see other ways of balancing him without changing his passive to give him positive and negative charges.
What ever you do DO NOT STAND IN THE FIRE! Oh wait priest has life grip now... np np...
(WoW Releated, sorry)
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On November 17 2010 02:18 r33k wrote:
There are similiar mechanics in dota, complaining about griefing on rocket grabs would be like complaining about pirate denying minions.
Think for a second about a world without flash, a random carry gets stunned and ganked but blitz pulls him and saves the day. Ofc it would be a high risk move but I don't see other ways of balancing him without changing his passive to give him positive and negative charges.
you don't know what griefing is do you? lol.
an example of griefing with this would be more like your Mantheon jumps on low health ezreal and before he can attack to seal the deal you purposefully pull him back, giving the enemy a free escape.
the only way pirate can do this really is by denying wards/pets/rallies, and while this is pretty annoying griefing, you can at least play around the asshole by not giving him shit to shoot, whereas Blitz could grief you just for playing the game, lol.
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You can grief just as much as blitz pulling an ally by afking the whole game or feeding on purpose, both those things are reportable.
You can anivia wall your allies away from enemies that were going to be free kills, people complain about that aswell but its not a gamebreaking problem. It's an interesting mechanic that dota has and lol doesn't have.
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I think Kennen may have now replaced MF as my absolute most hated champ to lane against solo. (I play Trist.)
I manage to survive the laning phase most of the time with a decent CS but I'm always 2-3 levels behind.
What can I do besides huddle up in a ball in the corner and cry?
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On November 22 2010 06:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
I think Kennen may have now replaced MF as my absolute most hated champ to lane against solo. (I play Trist.)
I manage to survive the laning phase most of the time with a decent CS but I'm always 2-3 levels behind.
What can I do besides huddle up in a ball in the corner and cry?
After he uses his lightning auto-attack, before level 3, you can jump on him. He can shuriken + W you, but he can't stun you, and your jump + E + autoattack should give you some solid damage.
That said, levels 3-5...I just don't know.
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On November 22 2010 06:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
I think Kennen may have now replaced MF as my absolute most hated champ to lane against solo. (I play Trist.)
I manage to survive the laning phase most of the time with a decent CS but I'm always 2-3 levels behind.
What can I do besides huddle up in a ball in the corner and cry?
I typed up this huge huge block of writing where I detailed the entire kennen vs tristana matchup, but I lost it. Detailing the finer points, either trade hits at 1 with e auto attack, or get to 2 faster and jump e. From 3 on, is when the wave should probably be pushing back. Watch out for anything kennen might pull here like a level 4 attack.
Around level 4/5 is the biggest part of this matchup for several reasons. First of all, you have to hit lvl 6 before he hits lvl 6. Second, his health has to be at a point where you can turn 6, use all your spells, and kill him. If he hits six first, then you just lost your chance to kill him, and you can't fight him anymore so you lose a ton of lane control. Second, if you hit six first, but can't kill him, then you force him back and he turns 6 and gains lane control, or you die.
From 6 onwards, if you haven't killed him, you have to hope for a neutral stance between you and kennen, meaning both of you are getting last hits without anything really happening. If he's being really aggressive, then hope for a gank, but don't fight unless you are sure of the gank, otherwise just play defensive. If you killed him, then go back and buy your doran's crap or whatever, and get a red fort and play aggressive because you can eat his nukes and heal with red fort and come out ahead because of kill adv.
Around 7-8 is when second red should be up. I forgot the exact timing(yes I'm bad). At that point, you regain lane control with red and range. This is when you play a poke game vs kennen. You use your range to poke kennen a few times, back, poke, back, or just zone. If you're poking him, then get him low and then kill him. If he's playing defensive, then you have a period where you retain lane control.
Anyways, this guide is not really good because it doesn't take into account other early game factors like ganks, and the whole jungle play.
The biggest problem with Tristana is that her e pushes the lane up a lot. It has its pros and cons, but you end up having your wave near their tower a lot.
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On November 22 2010 11:50 0123456789 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 06:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
I think Kennen may have now replaced MF as my absolute most hated champ to lane against solo. (I play Trist.)
I manage to survive the laning phase most of the time with a decent CS but I'm always 2-3 levels behind.
What can I do besides huddle up in a ball in the corner and cry? I typed up this huge huge block of writing where I detailed the entire kennen vs tristana matchup, but I lost it.
Uh....thanks for the help?
I guess I just need to find some practice partners for a bunch of solomid champs.
I should probably do that for SC2 as well since I haven't played it in ages. Damn you LoL! You have corrupted me to the core!
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Aspd Kenne build: Stinger, Sheen, MBR, then what?
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On November 27 2010 06:05 oberon wrote:
Aspd Kenne build: Stinger, Sheen, MBR, then what?
Is aspd Kennen good?
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On December 01 2010 02:33 -Kato- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 06:05 oberon wrote:
Aspd Kenne build: Stinger, Sheen, MBR, then what? Is aspd Kennen good?
Not as good as AP, but it's a different role -- more stunbot/dps -- from what I understand.
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Aspd kennen is bad.
You don't get the survivability or utility of AP and you don't get the damage output of DPS OR AP.
Going from ~.6 aspd (level 1, no items) to 2.5 aspd (capped) gives you 1/3 of a stun every 2 seconds instead of 10 assuming you can somehow constantly attack and never get CCed. (It's every 5 attacks, right?) It's also just a single target 1/3stun.
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It's every 4th attack IIRC.
Nvm, just checked, it is 5.
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On December 01 2010 04:44 Tooplark wrote:
Aspd kennen is bad.
You don't get the survivability or utility of AP and you don't get the damage output of DPS OR AP.
Going from ~.6 aspd (level 1, no items) to 2.5 aspd (capped) gives you 1/3 of a stun every 2 seconds instead of 10 assuming you can somehow constantly attack and never get CCed. (It's every 5 attacks, right?) It's also just a single target 1/3stun.
It's every 5th attack (takes 4 charges) -- of course, it also opens up your W, so it's more like 2/3 of a stun. The idea is also that you build razor, so your attacks do damage. I'm just not sure where it goes from there. Tank? Malady? SotD? GRB? HGB? No clue.
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Oh, how Twisted Treeline metagame boggles me so - where kennen, a brutally effective mage, builds wriggles lantern into IE/LW? O_O
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I played a game yesterday as Kennen that was pretty tough to begin with. I was solo mid against Urgot and I really didn't know anything about his abilities, which is never a good situation to be in anyway and completely my fault (I just haven't seen Urgot in any games, nor have I played him myself).
It just seemed like if I ever wanted to land a good Q on him, I'd leave myself really open to his skill shot thing, which always did way more damage than I was expecting. I had to force myself to just sit back and farm, which goes against my usual Kennen style which is super aggressive and always up in the enemie's face.
I realised that I have to avoid getting hit by that poison thing at all costs, as it allows his skill shots to lock on to me, but that was only after losing well over half my health in about 4 or 5 of those hits. 
After the early laning phase it was a breeze, however. The Urgot did some of the most stupid ults I think I've ever seen on any champion; swapping himself with the tank into the midst of all our team, at our tower, frequently. Maybe he was trolling..
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I just started playing kennan a few days ago, managed to get a pretty solid rune page for him and all, but I'm starting to wonder the viability of getting a zhonya's ring before Ralai's simply because I feel like when teamfights DO occur, im more likely to be target #1 because I'm going crazy. What do you guys think?
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well
i'd imagine that the idea behind zhonyas rush is so that you dont die when teamfights occur kus ideally u flash + ult + zhon in, use lightning rush out and poke with shurikens from a distance. mybe not tho, im not really a kennen player
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Kennen in teamfights works best with a transition: start out as a "DPS", tossing shurikens at range. If things go pear-shaped, use your flash to get out and kite with shurikens. If the other team overcommits, lightning-ball in (flash as a last resort, if needed) and ult. If you have zhonyas, only use it if both the enemies are not running away and they're hitting you hard enough.
Just flashing in, ulting, and using z-ring will often lose you teamfights, as the enemies dodge your ult, then jump you, your team runs in to save you, all your stuff's on CD, and everyone dies.
Of course, your ult can also be used defensively, but that usually means things have gone really, really wrong.
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Ah, maybe that explains why I die in most team fights @_@ MAN I really suck balls at throwing shrikens too, need to get better at that. I usually try to make a conscious effort to aim where i think they'll go, but I think i make about 40% of my shurikens right now.
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Well while zhonya's has its utility and and boost of AP it might not be as useful as Rhylai's as that gives HP and a passive which makes escaping from you nearly impossible if anything hits.
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On December 20 2010 18:15 Dave[9] wrote:
Ah, maybe that explains why I die in most team fights @_@ MAN I really suck balls at throwing shrikens too, need to get better at that. I usually try to make a conscious effort to aim where i think they'll go, but I think i make about 40% of my shurikens right now.
Unless it needs to be a clutch shuriken then I wouldn't worry about it. The energy comes back fast. Before team fights happen I make sure that I have my auto attack ready to apply a mark. If I can mark some people up before the initiation happens then I will but otherwise I save that charge for after my ult is finished. It is my, "oh shit, I need a mark on this person for a clutch stun."
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Alright, it appears I'm doing MUCH better with kennan now.. starting to get the hang of his ult and timing it with w. getting good stuns off is sooooooooooo important omg.
Suffice to say I'm using Salce's build with the build order discussed in this thread because of CDR runes. makes harassment so much better and there is rarely a time where I don't absolutely own the lane.
He's quickly becoming my favorite champion 
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And then you'll hit 1800 rating and everyone will know not to hug you when you press R and he'll turn into a "meh" hero cause the only thing you'll be doing is spamming Q & W.
Or is that just me ._.?
if you like kennen I'd also like to suggest trieing out the other cool AP heroes, Lux, Kassadin and Anivia, they are now the light of my day instead of Kennen. :D
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On December 25 2010 08:58 mercurial wrote:
And then you'll hit 1800 rating and everyone will know not to hug you when you press R and he'll turn into a "meh" hero cause the only thing you'll be doing is spamming Q & W.
Or is that just me ._.?
if you like kennen I'd also like to suggest trieing out the other cool AP heroes, Lux, Kassadin and Anivia, they are now the light of my day instead of Kennen. :D
As someone who is gaining ELO rapidly playing Kennen, this is sorta interesting. That said, Lux seems terrible, I have yet to get the hang of kassadin, and Anivia is expensive. I'll throw out Leblanc as an incredibly fun, reasonably viable AP hero.
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On December 25 2010 08:58 mercurial wrote:
And then you'll hit 1800 rating and everyone will know not to hug you when you press R and he'll turn into a "meh" hero cause the only thing you'll be doing is spamming Q & W.
Or is that just me ._.?
if you like kennen I'd also like to suggest trieing out the other cool AP heroes, Lux, Kassadin and Anivia, they are now the light of my day instead of Kennen. :D
Maybe you could start using Flash and suddenly they can't just run from your R that easily?
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LOL I've had a few VERY bad R's, and then my team would just go "..wtf kennen?" However, It's pretty bi in teamfights. I'll usually only use it if Itls like the last skill i can use to get a kill off of someone who's running OR if thre's a massive teamfight and people need the stuns. Stuns are so big with the ult it's insane how it can change a teamfight.
But yeah, using his ult is like knowing when to use fiddle's ult or twitch. Have to use it at a time where everyone is fighting and you can just go in, do your job, get the fuck out, and then start chicking shurikens and w'ing.
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On December 26 2010 16:09 Dave[9] wrote:
LOL I've had a few VERY bad R's, and then my team would just go "..wtf kennen?" However, It's pretty bi in teamfights. I'll usually only use it if Itls like the last skill i can use to get a kill off of someone who's running OR if thre's a massive teamfight and people need the stuns. Stuns are so big with the ult it's insane how it can change a teamfight.
But yeah, using his ult is like knowing when to use fiddle's ult or twitch. Have to use it at a time where everyone is fighting and you can just go in, do your job, get the fuck out, and then start chicking shurikens and w'ing.
I've had some pretty epic R's. My all-time favorite was when I had just hit 6 in lane. I was at tower, typing something to teammates, and accidentally hit R while chat wasn't opened. The lane was semi-pushed, so the enemy laner could see me, but was nowhere near me. They were like "WTF?"
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Can somebody tell me how the fuck Kennen is a remotely balanced character?
-Most CC in the game
-best laning in the game
-Completely unkillable
-Enormous damage from start to finish of the game
fucking broken, garbage bullshit character
Remove him from the game like twitch imo, I'm sick of dealing with terrible kens that autowin because of their champ select
yes, imad
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On December 25 2010 14:11 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 08:58 mercurial wrote:
And then you'll hit 1800 rating and everyone will know not to hug you when you press R and he'll turn into a "meh" hero cause the only thing you'll be doing is spamming Q & W.
Or is that just me ._.?
if you like kennen I'd also like to suggest trieing out the other cool AP heroes, Lux, Kassadin and Anivia, they are now the light of my day instead of Kennen. :D As someone who is gaining ELO rapidly playing Kennen, this is sorta interesting. That said, Lux seems terrible, I have yet to get the hang of kassadin, and Anivia is expensive. I'll throw out Leblanc as an incredibly fun, reasonably viable AP hero.
Lux is such a good character it isn't even funny. You can carry a team so well as her just by setting your team up with kills and putting out surprising burst at the same time. I would also add Malzahar do that list as he just always seems to start snowballing at lev13 for me without fail. I seriously need to purchase him but he does so well I almost feel as guilty as playing Kennen.
On December 27 2010 20:37 Odds wrote:
Can somebody tell me how the fuck Kennen is a remotely balanced character?
-Most CC in the game
-best laning in the game
-Completely unkillable
-Enormous damage from start to finish of the game
fucking broken, garbage bullshit character
Remove him from the game like twitch imo, I'm sick of dealing with terrible kens that autowin because of their champ select
yes, imad
He isn't balanced atm imo. If I were to attempt to balance him I would say that his Q and W have to be adjusted so that his Q does slightly more damage with his W doing slightly less. His passive needs to charge his attack something like every 8 or 10 attacks rather than the 4 (I think it's 4?). But he is an insanely fun character to play because he is broken :D
*edited because I said his E instead of W...
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On December 27 2010 23:01 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 14:11 oberon wrote:On December 25 2010 08:58 mercurial wrote:
And then you'll hit 1800 rating and everyone will know not to hug you when you press R and he'll turn into a "meh" hero cause the only thing you'll be doing is spamming Q & W.
Or is that just me ._.?
if you like kennen I'd also like to suggest trieing out the other cool AP heroes, Lux, Kassadin and Anivia, they are now the light of my day instead of Kennen. :D As someone who is gaining ELO rapidly playing Kennen, this is sorta interesting. That said, Lux seems terrible, I have yet to get the hang of kassadin, and Anivia is expensive. I'll throw out Leblanc as an incredibly fun, reasonably viable AP hero. Lux is such a good character it isn't even funny. You can carry a team so well as her just by setting your team up with kills and putting out surprising burst at the same time. I would also add Malzahar do that list as he just always seems to start snowballing at lev13 for me without fail. I seriously need to purchase him but he does so well I almost feel as guilty as playing Kennen. Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 20:37 Odds wrote:
Can somebody tell me how the fuck Kennen is a remotely balanced character?
-Most CC in the game
-best laning in the game
-Completely unkillable
-Enormous damage from start to finish of the game
fucking broken, garbage bullshit character
Remove him from the game like twitch imo, I'm sick of dealing with terrible kens that autowin because of their champ select
yes, imad He isn't balanced atm imo. If I were to attempt to balance him I would say that his Q and W have to be adjusted so that his Q does slightly more damage with his W doing slightly less. His passive needs to charge his attack something like every 8 or 10 attacks rather than the 4 (I think it's 4?). But he is an insanely fun character to play because he is broken :D *edited because I said his E instead of W...
Kennen is a lot like Fiddle in that if you don't know where he is he can zoom out and destroy you. If you're getting hosed by him, buy a negatron item (FoN, Veil, and QSash are all good) and some wards.
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the difference is that even if you know where he is he can zoom out and destroy you.
herp derp roll face on keyboard and penta kill herp derp
kennen does not know the meaning of the word "overcommit"
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On December 27 2010 20:37 Odds wrote:
Can somebody tell me how the fuck Kennen is a remotely balanced character?
-Most CC in the game
-best laning in the game
-Completely unkillable
-Enormous damage from start to finish of the game
fucking broken, garbage bullshit character
Remove him from the game like twitch imo, I'm sick of dealing with terrible kens that autowin because of their champ select
yes, imad
well thats odd.
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Can anyone explain why I would want to get mr/18 blues instead of flat cooldown blues?
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I don't play Kennen, but some possible reasons:
Kennen likes to lightning rush -> ulti 1v5 (sometimes his allies are near him as well). MRes helps survive stunts like these.
Kennen uses quite a bit of energy. If you are already limited by energy regen then CDR is useless.
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On December 28 2010 08:06 Dave[9] wrote:
Can anyone explain why I would want to get mr/18 blues instead of flat cooldown blues?
I run CDR blues. One thing to note is that W has a channel time -- you need significant CDR before you can double-W (basically, you need an item or blue buff, even with runes/masteries). So the CDR is fine, but not as big a deal as it could be.
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really wanna try this guild, but i dont have energy runes =/
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You just need to lvl W twice.
I swapped away from Kennen because after the easy mode 1700 rating climb he becomes less viable due to teams knowing they can actually silence and kill him before he can pull of a succesfull ulti (which is why alot of players vow by zhonya's on him first)
Hes not OP unless your shit, if you've played Kennen you know how to fight him, that being said his lane dominance is quite high, comparable to Mordecaisers, however suprisingly enough gets outdone by Morgana. if she hits Q once you die if you hit q 10 times she'll be like "lol, I got spellvamp, bitch"
The game is moving away from the AOE ult thing and Kennen is gonna turn out to be less interesting unless AOE gets a buff again.
That said I understand how you guys feel that he is OP with how easy it is to hit stuns even with no skill.
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On January 01 2011 20:09 mercurial wrote:
You just need to lvl W twice.
I swapped away from Kennen because after the easy mode 1700 rating climb he becomes less viable due to teams knowing they can actually silence and kill him before he can pull of a succesfull ulti (which is why alot of players vow by zhonya's on him first)
Hes not OP unless your shit, if you've played Kennen you know how to fight him, that being said his lane dominance is quite high, comparable to Mordecaisers, however suprisingly enough gets outdone by Morgana. if she hits Q once you die if you hit q 10 times she'll be like "lol, I got spellvamp, bitch"
The game is moving away from the AOE ult thing and Kennen is gonna turn out to be less interesting unless AOE gets a buff again.
That said I understand how you guys feel that he is OP with how easy it is to hit stuns even with no skill.
On the subject of builds, while zhonya's is pretty good, you can also go Rylai (HP) -> Abyssal (MR) -> GA (or any other armor item you like) and be almost an offtank as Kennen. You don't hit as hard, of course. If you're worried about silence (or CC in general), you can do merc treads -> void staff instead of sorc boots/guise -- you'll kill squishies slower, but be better against tanks, and resist CC.
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New Kennen build: CDR boots, rylai's, deathcap, abyssal, hourglass, void staff.
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apparently games take 80 mins now ._.
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So, with the new deathcap item, is kennen finally considered a completly OP and broken character?
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not even close.
Kennen barely had the "mass ap" thing other casters have because hes an energy hero, furthermore, kennen's ap ratio's are poor by default.
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Whenever i play kennen i have a feeling that his power is supposed to be balanced for people who miss 70% of shurikens...
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Dodge em!
Focus on dodging shurikens when laning vs him and he's reduced to a top notch laner.
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On January 10 2011 04:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Dodge em!
Focus on dodging shurikens when laning vs him and he's reduced to a top notch laner.
that's like saying focus on dodging old ezreal + red buff 's mystics, he still had his autos (just as kennen still has his w passive + active to set up stuns) to put u into a kiting chain lol
like the only real answers to kennen in lane are heroes who can outlast kennen given the right farm / skill level (morgana, vlad who isn't retarded aggressive for the first 7 levels, kassadin) and eventually punish him for any overextending (or in morgana's case catching him in a binding with less than 60% health).
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how does kass outlast him? I thought kass was pretty bad until lvl 6
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On January 10 2011 06:53 ZeeMan wrote:
how does kass outlast him? I thought kass was pretty bad until lvl 6
kass passive reduces kennen's damage, gives him more damage based on how much he took
trading a q for a shuriken is a good trade for kass
silencing kennen before he gets his ult off can fuck him up if he tries to level 6 gib you
SoS imba
as long as you don't eat autoattacks nonstop, kass is a decent lane matchup vs kennen
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if Kassadin builds properly (0-9-21, opening dshield), and plays properly (Kennen's Q is a skillshot, Kassadin's is not - this is a big deal), Kennen doesn't have much of a chance.
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Would you get CDR boots over Sorc boots on Kennen?
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On January 10 2011 08:37 myopia wrote:
if Kassadin builds properly (0-9-21, opening dshield), and plays properly (Kennen's Q is a skillshot, Kassadin's is not - this is a big deal), Kennen doesn't have much of a chance.
Kennen's Q has way lower cooldown and more range, Kassadin's Q costs mana (this is a big deal).
Kennen is ranged and also can just use his basically free to cast Q to lasthit from 1k range if he needs to. Kass is melee and if he uses Q to lasthit he spends a lot of mana and sets off a long cooldown during which Kennen will push him off the minions.
Kennen can charge his autoattack, lightning rush towards Kass, auto, W, Q from close range. Not much Kass can do against that if he went up close to the minions trying to lasthit. I definitely don't think Kass is in the advantage here.
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On January 10 2011 08:37 myopia wrote:
if Kassadin builds properly (0-9-21, opening dshield), and plays properly (Kennen's Q is a skillshot, Kassadin's is not - this is a big deal), Kennen doesn't have much of a chance.
congrats, you've never played against a kennen that knows he should skill W over Q at lvl 3/4 for cooldown and damage purposes.
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Kassadin puts it in Kennen's butt with tank spec, 0/9/21, and dshield. I dun think I've ever lost to one with Kass in lane. You hit more harass with imba 700 range Q and regen harder off of SoS and then you just reach a point where you can run up on him and fight him with your imba passive.
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With Mark duration nerfs, new skilling order being QWQER? So skipping lvl 2 W?
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On January 11 2011 05:34 Mogwai wrote:
Kassadin puts it in Kennen's butt with tank spec, 0/9/21, and dshield. I dun think I've ever lost to one with Kass in lane. You hit more harass with imba 700 range Q and regen harder off of SoS and then you just reach a point where you can run up on him and fight him with your imba passive.
When I'm playing this matchup from the Kennen side, I go QWE and get hyper-aggro at level 3. Your Q still doesn't hit hard enough to justify spamming it, and I can E up to you, stun you, then beat on you with auto-attacks. It's not necessarily an easy matchup, but I've always found Kennen to have the edge.
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Yeah, there is no sense in skilling W twice now, unless you can't hit your shurikens in any possible way, which I highly doubt, but guess it could happen with malzahar's anoying little summon or something.
The Mots change has made Kennen a weaker laner, but only by a little bit. The consistent damage is more important. Go try out new builds where W is the main on a dual lane or something, it should work. double tag W damage etc. (Q>W>E>W>W or W>E>Q>W>W) depending on what you prefer.
Also, Kennen's attack range is high enough for kassadin to have to close in really obviously & won't be behind the creeps or at a point where you can hit a shuriken next to a creep or something. So unless Kennen comes close to W combo kassadin, he can't get the free Q without a dmg exchange.
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On January 20 2011 21:57 mercurial wrote:
Yeah, there is no sense in skilling W twice now, unless you can't hit your shurikens in any possible way, which I highly doubt, but guess it could happen with malzahar's anoying little summon or something.
The Mots change has made Kennen a weaker laner, but only by a little bit. The consistent damage is more important. Go try out new builds where W is the main on a dual lane or something, it should work. double tag W damage etc. (Q>W>E>W>W or W>E>Q>W>W) depending on what you prefer.
Also, Kennen's attack range is high enough for kassadin to have to close in really obviously & won't be behind the creeps or at a point where you can hit a shuriken next to a creep or something. So unless Kennen comes close to W combo kassadin, he can't get the free Q without a dmg exchange.
Crossing the creepbarrier is relatively easy to fake for kassadin, and if you miss your Q, you're getting Q'd in the face or losing out on ks/cs.
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I don't get shuriken for the sole reason that it's not reliable enough for pushing kassadin off the creeps, and because of kassadin's passive and innate Mres, it doens't even do more damage than the autoattack.
I skill W,E,W,Q,Q,R now, and I come to lane with my W passive 3/4 charged off wolves (not fully charged because that's too obvious). [E] at level 2 so that Kassadin can't avoid my auto-attack harass (and to have extra-MR to soak up his Q).
It's not ideal because shuriken is a max-ASAP move, but you really need to do something to kassadin otherwise by level 5 he's just going to Q you relentlessly and push you out.
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With the last few patches, my old guide may not apply anymore. If someone who actually plays LoL wants to write an updated guide, post it and I'll update the OP.
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On January 21 2011 00:02 Juicyfruit wrote:
I don't get shuriken for the sole reason that it's not reliable enough for pushing kassadin off the creeps, and because of kassadin's passive and innate Mres, it doens't even do more damage than the autoattack.
I skill W,E,W,Q,Q,R now, and I come to lane with my W passive 3/4 charged off wolves (not fully charged because that's too obvious). [E] at level 2 so that Kassadin can't avoid my auto-attack harass (and to have extra-MR to soak up his Q).
It's not ideal because shuriken is a max-ASAP move, but you really need to do something to kassadin otherwise by level 5 he's just going to Q you relentlessly and push you out.
lvl 2 W isn't good enough anymore though, if you put 2 points in might aswell get that third cause that'll deal more dmg then a second point in shuriken, and then just use shuriken for ''easy'' mots's.
I'm not saying your way of going at it is wrong, its just one of the ways (I actually use both depending on who/what im facing.)
Also we forget to mention that a lvl 5 W + lvl 2 E with rylai = dead caster creeps. For cleaning a wave up quickly having this ready at lvl 10 would be quite usefull.
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rise, dead thread!
question for kennen players, how is he built now with the zhonyas split?
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I'd still go for Sorcs/Rylai's (depending on farm, hp needs, matchups, lineups) - Hourglass - Cap/Banshee/Void.
The active on Hourglass still has great synergy and give a good amount of AP (100). Rylai's is useful, combining slow, AP, and HP into one. Deathcap increases damage output and void is there for mpen. I can see situations where Rylai's can be skipped (early teamfights, NEED the active or you won't get anything off) and going banshee (not as a first item; they got galio, amumu, etc).
As for deathcap... you do good damage but you'll get focused and die immediately unless you position yourself perfectly with team support. Even then it's a problem (Janna ult, Trist ult, etc).
I still prefer hourglass 'rush' because your ideal job is to get that perfect ult off with flash/e/r/hourglass.
I don't like his passive nerf because I can't play 'zone them out and skimp a few cs here and there while holding onto w' although it was probably needed.
EDIT: What about cdr boots? Can be useful no?
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Almost every AP item works on Kennen depending on the matchup. Sometimes you go sorc/guise and start wrecking everyone with shuriken pokes early on. Sometimes you need giant's belt early to win your lane so you build rylais. Sometimes your best contribution could be to cause enemy teams to split so you build rylais + hourglass + negatron and you can force squishies to split up from their tanks.
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What about Hextech revolver with the new 20% spell vamp, sort of a catalyst for Kennen? Or useless?
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I am playing suicidal Kennen, with boots->cap rush->sorc boots->hourglass/Voidstaff vs. heavy tanks. and hope in team fights that i can hit 3+ people with my Ult+e+w combo to deal heavy dmg, and my team mates clean up the rest :D. That's the fun of playing Kennen. I'd rather dish out as much dmg as I can before I die, a < 50 % HP Kennen with low Energy in the center of a teamfight is useless anyway :D. Even with Hourglass, competent players will silence Kennen and everyone will kill u in a teamfight before u can even stasis, so why not w8 for everyone to fight and try to hit as much as possible  .
On April 16 2011 01:38 -Kato- wrote:
What about Hextech revolver with the new 20% spell vamp, sort of a catalyst for Kennen? Or useless?
Bad idea, as it delays Kennen's core items and doesn't provide sufficient AP for teambattles.
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If Kennen gets focused while in pikachu mode he's deceptively tanky.
Right now Kennen should be maxing R>Q>E>W.
W is a really bad spell because it really doesn't add enough damage, whereas the extra tankiness and mobility from maxing E earlier helps a lot.
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I was thinking of picking kennen up just because the revolver buff (when it actually happens) seems like it would bring the old unbeatable lane kennen back... eat_mi is probably right though, how can you delay rylai's?
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On April 16 2011 12:41 Juicyfruit wrote:
If Kennen gets focused while in pikachu mode he's deceptively tanky.
Right now Kennen should be maxing R>Q>E>W.
W is a really bad spell because it really doesn't add enough damage, whereas the extra tankiness and mobility from maxing E earlier helps a lot.
Really ? :/ I was Playing R>Q>E/W before the nerf and also R>W>E>Q. With Q what u only can do is poke, in a teamfight it is just a bad spell IMO, since it drains ur energy to get out of the center of the fight and is not reliable enough to hit someone, since it's oftentimes very hard to have a clear path between u and their low HP carry. Therefore it's only good for 1vs1 battles/chasing and poking.
That is why I'm still playing R>W>E>Q, because it's actually more dmg that u deal during a fight, and it is more reliable + better for farming. With Q 1st u need Rylais to clear a wave, with W 1st u can do it earlier and much more easier.
I agree that Kennen is more tanky in pikachu mode ;D , but still once focused, he's dead very fast.
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^
You have discovered a whole new Kennen for me I love you, 1 point in Q then R>W>E>Q, real AoE boss now.
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NOT maxing q first seems a bit questionable to me seeing as how q (from my experience with kennen) is how he exerts the vast majority of his lane dominance. Sure, you may theoretically be able to farm faster with maxing w/e first, but no opponent in their right mind is just gonna let you lightning rush thru his creeps without making you seriously pay for it
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As I see it, maxing Q is how you can deal most damage, if you manage to hit with it that is. Its not easy when they are standing behind their minions, or plain dodging them. Maxing W and E also reduces the cooldown on those abilities (Q already has a lowish CD), and R>W hurts much more with W maxed than with Q maxed.
Maybe im just bad and can't hit Q's, but I feel its much easier to Q people later in the game rather than in lane phase.
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Hitting Q is fundamental to playing Kennen, lol, and it scales really well with AP for a 3-second cooldown spell.
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On April 17 2011 23:07 barbsq wrote:
NOT maxing q first seems a bit questionable to me seeing as how q (from my experience with kennen) is how he exerts the vast majority of his lane dominance. Sure, you may theoretically be able to farm faster with maxing w/e first, but no opponent in their right mind is just gonna let you lightning rush thru his creeps without making you seriously pay for it
It's actually easier to get lane dominance with W + E , because E gives MR and W passive is instant mark and W is 100% hit. You don't even need to aim. Even if you skill Q max , you do the Q -> W combo in lane to get dominace, but it does only a little more damage than W passive -> W, but in comparision is much more difficult to pull of.
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Meh, yeah with W you can do more chip damage but you'll be surpassed in burst really fast and they'll really just trade hits with you everytime you go up to apply W passive.
When I max Q, sometimes hitting a single Q at level 9 can win you the lane because Q -> [stall] -> W -> flash -> R (first tick stuns) -> Q -> E -> autattacks -> Q is a stupid amount of burst.
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I'm not sold on maxing E before W. Kennen with W>E becomes a beast farmer/pusher. IMO he needs those levels in W to flash farm midgame so he can participate in important teamfights/skirmishes instead of afk farming (since his lategame potential isn't as great as other carries). E doesn't give that much armor/mr... you don't become some super tank midgame if you max that (especially if you're going for a build like 2 NRL into Zhonya + Deathcap).
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On April 19 2011 02:13 ArC_man wrote:
I'm not sold on maxing E before W. Kennen with W>E becomes a beast farmer/pusher. IMO he needs those levels in W to flash farm midgame so he can participate in important teamfights/skirmishes instead of afk farming (since his lategame potential isn't as great as other carries). E doesn't give that much armor/mr... you don't become some super tank midgame if you max that (especially if you're going for a build like 2 NRL into Zhonya + Deathcap).
But what's the difference between E and W in farming ? You need E to tag them all then W. Both are AOE and E does more dmg than W (base, AP ratio in mid game about the same) . So i think E > W is better.
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Fyi, E only does half-damage to minions.
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LOL my bad, last time i check his E i thought they've changed it to 100% dmg to minions xD and i tried E max first LOL. well back to R>W>E>Q
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I've been playing some AD Kennen in normal games and I've been dominating. Why is he not used much? If you look at him only from the AD perspective, he has a little less range than Ashe, but tons and tons of utility.
AS reds and quints, 2dblades>IE, and then an AS item. You have an escape, Q helps u stun and hit early, and your W will make u stun like crazy. Use ult only for protection, assassin jumping onto you? Ult and kill him while he gets stunned 80 times (or more).
His abilities dont scale with AD, but... stuns, stuns everywhere.
So, why is he bad?
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Because his 'steroid' is weak and Ashe has one of the best ultimates in the game, a free clairvoyance, and doesn't have to expose herself for her utility.
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Ok, he isn't Ashe. And offensively he should be worse than other ranged carries. But in soloqueue, where more often than not your tank and support are chasing that Singed and leaving you alone, I find Kennen has the upperhand. So I feel he is a good "defensive" ranged carry. Obviously you want your carry to be the best offensively as it can, but in soloqueue I think you need that 1v1 strength.
My question is, is he viable? Why do I do much better with AD Kennen than with Ashe, Trist Corki... etc. Maybe I just suck at AD carries.
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Dunno, why u do better with AD Kennen than Ashe. Ashe has - as mentioned before - one of the best ults in the game, which is optimized for ranged AD carries, as compared to Kennens Ult which exposes u to the danger-zone
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/FM0qX.jpg)
, just trolling much 
