One of the premiere junglers on Summoner’s Rift, Warwick can provide his team with a strong jungle presence and gank efficiently. He is also capable of one of the earliest solo dragons in the game.
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In light of Patch 1.0.0.108, there has been drastic changes made to jungling. Lizard and Golem have remained the same but milestone objectives (Dragon and Baron) have been buffed drastically. As a result, builds need to be updated.
Skill Order: WQQEQR, R > Q > E >= W Item Build: Long Sword + 1 HP pot => Madred’s Razor + Ward => Boots => Merc Treads => Heart of Gold => Recurve Bow => Spirit Visage => Bloodrazor => Banshee -OR- Randuin's => survivability
Playstyle Previously, it was arguable that rushing for straight Bloodrazor with Merc Treads was a viable option for Warwick. However, with the ward nerfs and Dragon/Baron buffs, rushing Bloodrazor has fallen out of flavor. Razor is still your first key item since it speeds up your jungling. However, it becomes much harder to sneak in a level 4-5 Dragon now with Dragon's single target attack debuff.
Going HoG and SV before finish Bloodrazor provides WW an increase in HP, Armor and MR. SV also buffs your Q and passive, allowing your HP to stay up throughout midgame. Getting Recurve Bow after HoG means you don't fall behind on the offensive spectrum. Dragon requires more of a team effort, if you successfully gank a lane, have your team (solo mid and two from bot) collapse immediately on Dragon and complete it before the dead enemy champion revives. Vision wards are highly recommended now but even without sight, the enemy has ample time to get to Dragon since WW cannot solo Dragon as easily as before.
Summoner Skills: Smite/Ghost (preferred), Smite/Flash Masteries:1 8 21 Runes: Quints: Flat HP Red: Attack Speed Yellow: Mana per 5 per Level Blue: Cooldown Reduction per Level
Skill Order: WQQEQR, R > Q > E >= W Item Build: Long Sword + 1 HP pot => Madred’s + Ward => Boots => Merc Treads or Berserker’s Greaves => Bloodrazor => survivability
Playstyle With Long Sword and a hp pot, start out at Blue Golem. At 1:55, start attacking the Golem, activate your W and chug your hp pot. Smite Golem at 500 hp or less to ensure a kill. Once you have Golem buff, continue to small Wolves camp.
Get Lizard next with your 2nd Smite. From here, your jungle path can split. If mid or bottom is pushing hard, gank. Otherwise, continue to Wraith camp and small Golem camp, then attempt to gank.
Try not to return to base until you have at least 575 gold, which is what you need to complete your Madred’s Razor. Once you have Razor, rush over to Dragon and start. Tell Bottom Lane to push hard while you walk over to Dragon and have one or both of them swing to Dragon and help if needed. Typically, Warwick and solo Dragon at level 4 once he has his Razor and 1 HP Pot.
Skills, Q will be your primary skill, both in and out of the jungle. It does a considerable amount of damage at level 5 and heals a good amount. W and E are equally important, however I would lean more towards E over W. It's more important that WW is capable of chasing down low hp champions than it is to attack faster. One thing to remember is that you can toggle your passive E on and off. If you are preparing to gank Bottom Lane, for example, turn off E until you're in range to strike. Keeping E on can sometimes cause the enemy get a freebie notification over their head that a gank is impending if their hp is less than half. Don't give yourself away due to your own skills.
Mid game, control the buffs on your side, concede Lizard buff to your carry in mid whenever possible. Ward the enemy jungle to counter the enemy jungler. And gank as often as your ultimate is up. At this point, you are farming and ganking so you have enough gold for your Bloodrazor.
Late game, once you have your Bloodrazor, you are more or less set. Boots are highly dependent on what the enemy team composition is. The more CC they have, the more you will be reliant on Merc Treads. There will be occasional snowball games where Greavers are acceptable but Treads are your mainstay. From there, build survivability in the form of Sunfire Cape(s), Banshee’s Veil, and Guardian Angel. Some Warwick will continue to build damage in the form of Bloodthristers or even Infinity Edge but I don’t recommend it. Whenever you ulti in, you will draw insta aggro. Without a good boost survivability, you will tend to die as soon as your ulti finishes due to your lack of escape (you typically Ghost in to chase).
In team fights, wait for your tank to initiate if possible then Infinite Duress the enemy physical Carry. Warwick relies heavily on patience to allow his team to get in position. Ulti’ing too early could lead to you dying before your team can flank properly. While it is recommended that you ulti the enemy Carry, it is acceptable to ulti any enemy champion that is out of position. But you want to ensure that your team has favorable odds. Ideally, every Ulti you land should be a kill. Anything less is going to be a waste.
Edits: - Another viable opening is Cloth Armor + 5 HP Pots. It is safer but this OP feels it is slightly slower than the Long Sword + HP Pot opening. If you do open Cloth Armor first, you need to accumulate 700 gold at the very least before heading back to town to buy your Razor - If your jungle is camped by the enemy, start at the Small Golem camp first instead. Then head over to Wolves and Wraiths next. Use your second Smite at Wraiths then back. Head to Blue Golem at level 3 when your 3rd Smite is ready. - Whenever you do buffs, you must watch the enemy team. If you start Lizard buff and half way through, the enemy bottom lane all MIAs. You need to stop and run away. It's very possible that your Lizard has been warded and the enemies at Bottom are coming to stop/kill you at Lizard.
only thing i might add as an option is cloth + ward opening, depending on who the enemy is. If it looks like a team comp looking for a super early dragon then it might be worth using cloth opening, or a jungler highly reliant on blue/red could net you a kill if its warded.
Is taking SOS better than taking the 9 in offense ? I really dig the cdr and mpen and considering ww's weak mana pool and insane healing with q I think he's one of the junglers who can pull it off with ease
I'm no pro but I love running movespeed quints instead of flat hp, and as soon as the game starts, ghosting straight to the enemy blue to drop a ward. I've steamrolled a few games by starting at my own blue while my team ganks their blue. Then, by the time I finish wolves my ghost is back up (21 utility yeah) so with the enemy jungler having been chased off blue, I ghost again + steal it. At this point there's no chance of their jungler catching up.
On November 04 2010 08:01 Navi wrote: Is taking SOS better than taking the 9 in offense ? I really dig the cdr and mpen and considering ww's weak mana pool and insane healing with q I think he's one of the junglers who can pull it off with ease
1 8 21 is lilballz's mastery setup, which I live by whenever I play a jungle champion, haha.
But yes, 9 0 21 is also viable with little to no drawback compared to 1 8 21. 1 8 21 does work better if you go Banshee's as your first survivability item obviously, which I tend to do.
On November 04 2010 08:02 myopia wrote: I'm no pro but I love running movespeed quints instead of flat hp, and as soon as the game starts, ghosting straight to the enemy blue to drop a ward. I've steamrolled a few games by starting at my own blue while my team ganks their blue. Then, by the time I finish wolves my ghost is back up (21 utility yeah) so with the enemy jungler having been chased off blue, I ghost again + steal it. At this point there's no chance of their jungler catching up.
Quints: Flat HP, Move Speed, Attack Speed.
All viable, it's entirely dependent on the player. lilballz runs Attack Speed quints. I'm personally more comfortable with a little more HP at level 1.
Hm, you can actually smite a level 1 blue at <550 hp for the last hit. Regarding skill order though, is there a reason to take W first rather than Q (since I've always started with Q)? Opening long sword the two seem to clear blue at the same speed, but I think with a cloth armor opening Q would be faster. Does it keep your hp higher, or is it more useful in a level 1 fight?
in the mastery builder, you might want to note that leaguecraft's mastery thing is kinda retarded and puts a point in exhaust, so you have 31 masteries. Just say ignore the exhaust or something
On November 04 2010 08:05 TieN.nS) wrote: Hm, you can actually smite a level 1 blue at <550 hp for the last hit. Regarding skill order though, is there a reason to take W first rather than Q (since I've always started with Q)? Opening long sword the two seem to clear blue at the same speed, but I think with a cloth armor opening Q would be faster. Does it keep your hp higher, or is it more useful in a level 1 fight?
I actually don't remember the exact amount Smite does at level 1 on SR. So if someone can test it or tell me with 100% certainty, I'd appreciate it.
But the idea is that you want to Smite as soon as the Golem drops below the Smite damage barrier. The last thing you want is to have the enemy counter-jungler (most commonly an Eve running Smite) stealing your Golem buff because you were too slow at last hitting with Smite.
As for Long Sword, during the beta, I tested it out and found with Long Sword, you end up with slightly more HP for some reason at the end and you obviously kill things faster. Killing minions faster = less damage you take, etc. It could be all in my head but it's just a matter of playstyle. No one is going to say one WW is worse than the other based on if they open Cloth or Sword.
Edit: oh, you misinterpreted my post. :x My question wasn't about long sword vs cloth + ward opening, it's actually about the reason you'd take W over Q.
On November 04 2010 07:50 barbsq wrote: only thing i might add as an option is cloth + ward opening, depending on who the enemy is. If it looks like a team comp looking for a super early dragon then it might be worth using cloth opening, or a jungler highly reliant on blue/red could net you a kill if its warded.
I actually prefer cloth + ward to long sword, but I haven't actually played WW that much. I would like some opinions from others with regard to Cloth + Ward vs. Long Sword openings.
I've been messing around getting Wriggle's Lantern and Bloodrazor. It delays getting your BR up by about 1000 gold but the lifesteal is useful all game and you get a slightly higher chance to proc the passive which means you wreck jungle creeps even faster.
You also wreck baron even harder once you get both, too. And the "ward" is sweet.
Getting Wriggle's sounds bad on Warwick, it's not like he ever needs any extra lifesteal since he has it from his passive and his Q. Faster BR means faster Baron control too.
On November 04 2010 07:50 barbsq wrote: only thing i might add as an option is cloth + ward opening, depending on who the enemy is. If it looks like a team comp looking for a super early dragon then it might be worth using cloth opening, or a jungler highly reliant on blue/red could net you a kill if its warded.
I actually prefer cloth + ward to long sword, but I haven't actually played WW that much. I would like some opinions from others with regard to Cloth + Ward vs. Long Sword openings.
the only thing is, im like 99% sure that longsword opening is faster than cloth
however, if i plan on doing aggressive jungling, i like to start with a ward, if i plan on very defensive jungling, i start longsword. A great example would be against a jungle fiddle, who is extremely prone to jungle ganks, i would open ward and start either my blue or ward their blue for the steal if i'm comfortable with the ppl im playing with. On the other hand, if its looking like im gonna have to play it safe, or, i'm gonna end up opening at mini golems, i open longsword.
the idea behind this is that if im playing defensively, i'm gonna want to be fast and try to hold on to as many of my creeps as possible and avoid confrontations and go for a super-fast dragon, on the other hand, if i'm boning their jungler, i can go and steal their stuff to stay on track, so speed is somewhat secondary
Another thing: if you open cloth armor + 2 pots + ward, skill Q first instead of W. You'll end up with 100+ more HP when blue golem dies, then you can heal to full chewing on the smaller dudes.
WW's ult attacks 5 times, and procs on hit effects. This is why BR is so good on him, and the situational Wit's End.
On November 04 2010 08:16 TieN.nS) wrote: Getting Wriggle's sounds bad on Warwick, it's not like he ever needs any extra lifesteal since he has it from his passive and his Q. Faster BR means faster Baron control too.
You're pretty effective at Baron with just a wriggles and a recurve bow, which is cheaper than a BR so you can easily get it by 15 minutes. If your team goes for Baron anytime after 20 then you should probably have both by then.
You don't NEED extra lifesteal but having more isn't a bad thing, especially early. You also get attack damage, armor, and a ward every three minutes.
Try it out. I think it's a good investment for early game. And if the game drags on you can always sell it if you need the slot for more defense.
As jungling is most often than not my main role when I'm tryharding I just got a couple things to add on Warwick.
-The only time you should really ever consider cloth armor opening is when you want to have a bit more map control with an early ward. There is no reason to go cloth armor over long sword otherwise imo.
-I personally feel Warwick should be built tank first into Bloodrazer. My reasoning is that rushing baron is only viable against poor opponents and you should never go into a game assuming mistakes that your opponent will make. Same goes for dragon, I never rush it unless I feel there is a completely safe opening for me or my team to do so.
-With that said my build that I would recommend is Madred's - Boots - HoG - (Randuins/Banshee's Veil/Visage) - then into Bloodrazer. I feel Warwick already does a great amount of damage between his q's and the buffs you hold early on, so why not just be tanky and annoy their carry as much as possible. This allows for much ballsier ults and eating more focus compared to a Bloodrazer rush. The tank items you choose are of course situational there is no one build for everything that's just common items I follow. I'm just not a huge fan of GA anymore but people seem to still love it on Warwick so i guess that works in there as well.
-Runewise I LOVE attack speed over armor pen for warwick. Nothing gets me low at all with my passive while with armorpen I have some points where I could use my health pot to reduce risk of gank etc.
On November 04 2010 08:16 TieN.nS) wrote: Getting Wriggle's sounds bad on Warwick, it's not like he ever needs any extra lifesteal since he has it from his passive and his Q. Faster BR means faster Baron control too.
You're pretty effective at Baron with just a wriggles and a recurve bow, which is cheaper than a BR so you can easily get it by 15 minutes. If your team goes for Baron anytime after 20 then you should probably have both by then.
You don't NEED extra lifesteal but having more isn't a bad thing, especially early. You also get attack damage, armor, and a ward every three minutes.
Try it out. I think it's a good investment for early game. And if the game drags on you can always sell it if you need the slot for more defense.
Wriggle's with Recurve is the same thing as Madred's Razors with Recurve. If you don't need the lifesteal then it's not worth spending the money on the Vamp Scepter, so you're just needlessly delaying your BR.
My ww set up is 16(attack speed masteries)/0/14(neutral 30% , 3 in meditation and 1 in ms) attack speed quint/reds, flat armor ylw, cdr blue ( or mr/lvl ) this build is designed to dragon asap with madreds , safely. longsword+hp pot blue->wolves->wraiths->liz->minigolem done at 4min when u back to base u will have exactly 585, move to dragon. start it , use hp pot, you will always be at full hp. Very safe, and you can watch enemy movement when you dragon. Occasionally smart junglers will know when ur cs hits 15 and u disappear and stop jungling to just facecheck dragon without a ward, your full hp will keep you safe as u ghost away. (if their cs stops, pull dragon back so u have an easier time seeing them/ running away)
alternative ww build 21/0/9 hp quints/ armor pen reds/ flat armor ylw /cdr or mr/lvl blue IF you feel you can gank a lot, (ie their 2v2 lane is stronger than yours, their 1v1 mid looks very pushy(trist, morde, ashe volley) Or if u feel you can harass the enemy champ jungler
everything the same pathwise just your ganks will be a lot stronger. Olaf and udyr /shaco are better for this imo though. I love WW purely for fast dragon, and ulti ganks, i'll only gank if i know its 100% easy( they dont have ghost, or they have no escape but ghost, or they have ghost flash but their hp is under 50% ( you can flip on ghost and bloodscent and run towards them for the last two scenarios) Also requires they dont have double stun, or your allies to have a stun to compensate. It's a matter of judgement, if you go for a gank and fail, it costs you that quicker level 6 gank, that quciker dragon, and delays everything. WW is only good when hes on top of everyone else, otherwise he becomes a squishy melee dps with no dps
On November 04 2010 08:05 TieN.nS) wrote: Hm, you can actually smite a level 1 blue at <550 hp for the last hit. Regarding skill order though, is there a reason to take W first rather than Q (since I've always started with Q)? Opening long sword the two seem to clear blue at the same speed, but I think with a cloth armor opening Q would be faster. Does it keep your hp higher, or is it more useful in a level 1 fight?
I actually don't remember the exact amount Smite does at level 1 on SR. So if someone can test it or tell me with 100% certainty, I'd appreciate it.
But the idea is that you want to Smite as soon as the Golem drops below the Smite damage barrier. The last thing you want is to have the enemy counter-jungler (most commonly an Eve running Smite) stealing your Golem buff because you were too slow at last hitting with Smite.
As for Long Sword, during the beta, I tested it out and found with Long Sword, you end up with slightly more HP for some reason at the end and you obviously kill things faster. Killing minions faster = less damage you take, etc. It could be all in my head but it's just a matter of playstyle. No one is going to say one WW is worse than the other based on if they open Cloth or Sword.
The spell does 425+25xLevel but all neutral minions have negative MR so they take more damage than that. I dont know the exact number.
On November 04 2010 08:16 TieN.nS) wrote: Getting Wriggle's sounds bad on Warwick, it's not like he ever needs any extra lifesteal since he has it from his passive and his Q. Faster BR means faster Baron control too.
You're pretty effective at Baron with just a wriggles and a recurve bow, which is cheaper than a BR so you can easily get it by 15 minutes. If your team goes for Baron anytime after 20 then you should probably have both by then.
You don't NEED extra lifesteal but having more isn't a bad thing, especially early. You also get attack damage, armor, and a ward every three minutes.
Try it out. I think it's a good investment for early game. And if the game drags on you can always sell it if you need the slot for more defense.
Wriggle's with Recurve is the same thing as Madred's Razors with Recurve. If you don't need the lifesteal then it's not worth spending the money on the Vamp Scepter, so you're just needlessly delaying your BR.
Wriggle's with Recurve is not the same thing as Razors with Recurve, just very similar. You do get a higher chance to proc, a more damaging proc when you do proc, extra lifesteal and a ward. It all makes a difference.
You make it sound like BR is the be-all-end-all item for WW. The fact is that while it's probably the most popular item on him it is not a necessity and effective builds will vary based on your team and the opponent's team. Maybe getting BR is not as important as building up defense first.
What is the extra lifesteal good for? It helps keep you around for longer so you're free to gank more, push lanes, what have you. Maybe your team is in need of help more often than usual and when you do help you tend to take damage. Maybe the other team is counter-jungling more often than you'd like and you want to keep your health as close to maximum as possible.
It really seems to me like you're just dismissing my ideas without considering all the possibilities.
amumu does 630 with smite because of his MR reduc but everyone does 547 exactly Also at level 3, your smite does 609 on the lizard. Very good practice if u keep smiting like this, because its hard to tell where the enemy jungler is even if they have no cs. Lizard? Blue? trying to gank you? Trying to smite steal?
On November 04 2010 08:16 TieN.nS) wrote: Getting Wriggle's sounds bad on Warwick, it's not like he ever needs any extra lifesteal since he has it from his passive and his Q. Faster BR means faster Baron control too.
You're pretty effective at Baron with just a wriggles and a recurve bow, which is cheaper than a BR so you can easily get it by 15 minutes. If your team goes for Baron anytime after 20 then you should probably have both by then.
You don't NEED extra lifesteal but having more isn't a bad thing, especially early. You also get attack damage, armor, and a ward every three minutes.
Try it out. I think it's a good investment for early game. And if the game drags on you can always sell it if you need the slot for more defense.
Wriggle's with Recurve is the same thing as Madred's Razors with Recurve. If you don't need the lifesteal then it's not worth spending the money on the Vamp Scepter, so you're just needlessly delaying your BR.
Wriggle's with Recurve is not the same thing as Razors with Recurve, just very similar. You do get a higher chance to proc, a more damaging proc when you do proc, extra lifesteal and a ward. It all makes a difference.
You make it sound like BR is the be-all-end-all item for WW. The fact is that while it's probably the most popular item on him it is not a necessity and effective builds will vary based on your team and the opponent's team. Maybe getting BR is not as important as building up defense first.
What is the extra lifesteal good for? It helps keep you around for longer so you're free to gank more, push lanes, what have you. Maybe your team is in need of help more often than usual and when you do help you tend to take damage. Maybe the other team is counter-jungling more often than you'd like and you want to keep your health as close to maximum as possible.
It really seems to me like you're just dismissing my ideas without considering all the possibilities.
Well, I haven't tried it and don't plan on doing so to be honest. The only reason to build Wriggle's Lantern is if you need it to jungle, and Warwick certainly doesn't. The extra lifesteal isn't needed because barring the very first jungle camp, he never ever gets low while jungling. BR IS a big deal on Warwick because of how well it synergizes with his abilities in addition to how much jungle control it gives you. Sure, you might need to consider building tank items before BR, but in those same situations a Wriggle's Lantern doesn't help you out in any way and only delays your big damage item. Also, Wriggle's Lantern has a higher proc rate (20% as compared to 15% on Razors) but the proc effect is the same.
I've just started to play Warwick and I don't quite understand his role. Is he supposed to be a physical carry/dps? Why is building survivability better than building dps items? I thought Warwick was supposed to kill enemy champs?
WW ults the enemy team's carry. During that suppression either the enemy team is attacking WW to save their carry, or continuing to fight the enemy team without their carry. If the enemy team attacks WW after he ults the carry, he needs to survive long enough so WW's team can attack the enemy team while their carry is disabled.
Try not to think in such simple terms when defining a character's role. It really depends on your team and your opponent's team.
The reason WW doesn't want to build multiple DPS is because usually bloodrazor is all the damage you need and building up survivability helps him way more because he is very good at chasing and dealing constant damage. Building him tanky after BR lets him do just that. If you build DPS items then he kills opponents faster but if the other team ever decides to focus him then he'll die really fast.
Now there will be times where you're going to want the extra DPS over survivability, but usually you're better off with the defense.
WW wants to control the jungle and is a very good ganker. In teamfights you tend to take on more of an assassin role, but be ready to be flexible. The OP mentions ulting into teamfights on the opposing carry, but also only to ult if you think you'll get a kill. This is generally good advice. I think the most ideal situation for WW is to run (and not ult) into a teamfight, do your damage, and use your ult to kill someone fleeing or to stop an important ability on the opposing team.
Oh, and WW is NOT an initiator. (Unless you catch someone way out of position.)
On November 04 2010 13:07 CosmicAC wrote: I've just started to play Warwick and I don't quite understand his role. Is he supposed to be a physical carry/dps? Why is building survivability better than building dps items? I thought Warwick was supposed to kill enemy champs?
His role is to control the jungle and create favorable situations for the rest of his team while doing so. The reason he only needs a BR to do a ton of damage is because his Q does % health, and each hit of his ult applies on-hit effects. You build him tanky so that he can survive being in fights; as a squishy melee character he'd just get focused down otherwise. Of course he's "supposed" to kill enemy champs, but the strength is that he doesn't need damage items in order to do so. Between his suppression ult and blood scent, it's very difficult to get away from a Warwick gank.
The correct answer to noobie question was C. Mercury Treads. IF you are looking for more damage from your boots for some reason zerk greaves would net you more damage than sorc boots.
Considering BR's HP% Damage is Magic based (as it says in its description) I would assum that more MPen = More full % dealt while more MRes = Less of the full % dealt
lol all you do as ww is when their dps carry starts shooting, ult and smack the fuck outa the carry. BR -> the tanky items you think u will need Spirit visage always nice radiuns , thornmails, banshee , wits end all situational
Rushing bloodrazors is pretty risky. Even though he should get it relatively early, his ulti will draw him a lot of focus, so it's usually good to get some survivability before finishing BR. Of course, if you have a good gold advantage from being successful at ganking and dragon control, you can rush BR no problem.
In my last WW game, I was able to get 15 minute BR, but that was aided by 2-0-2 and being able to farm the solo lane after top went B. This won't happen with better players.
EDIT: Also, is Spirit Visage really that good on him? I was never impressed by it, always preferred Negatron cloak to it, since Veil is boss and CDR on a 75 sec ulti doesn't seem to be a great deal.
Most guides are based on optimal conditions. If the enemy doesn't sit on your Golem at level 1, you able to successfully gank, etc.
Obviously if the enemy team is forcing team fights sooner rather than later, you would do better to build survivability before completing your Bloodrazor.
Wit's End is niche, Visage isn't imo. A Banshee does everything Visage does, but better. WW doesn't really need that CDR. The boosted heal on Q isn't much to brag about either.
On November 04 2010 18:48 NeoIllusions wrote: Wit's End is niche, Visage isn't imo. A Banshee does everything Visage does, but better. WW doesn't really need that CDR. The boosted heal on Q isn't much to brag about either.
but it boosts his passive leech too :D spirit visage rox
On November 04 2010 18:48 NeoIllusions wrote: Wit's End is niche, Visage isn't imo. A Banshee does everything Visage does, but better. WW doesn't really need that CDR. The boosted heal on Q isn't much to brag about either.
but it boosts his passive leech too :D spirit visage rox
On November 04 2010 18:48 NeoIllusions wrote: Wit's End is niche, Visage isn't imo. A Banshee does everything Visage does, but better. WW doesn't really need that CDR. The boosted heal on Q isn't much to brag about either.
but it boosts his passive leech too :D spirit visage rox
WWs role on the Team is to rule the jungle. His main goal is to deny the opposing team Jungleresources and screw over their Jungler. Once he hit´s level 4 he can solo Dragon, once he gets Bloodrazor he can solo Baron (VERY risky!)
In a Teamfight he uses his ult to disrupt a carry. He is incredibly tough in a 1v1 due to the liferegain but against several enemys he collapses.
sry, these rune suggestions are pretty far from specialized Warwick pages.
More or less stealing from HwangJk, I run almost entirely Attack Speed runes with some ArmorPenetration mixed in (get 10 ArPen from Runes, you can do this via 6 marks or 3 Quints, the ultimate effect is the same). Defensive masteries aren't at all necessary on WW, so I run 9/0/21 to get some RNG faster jungling off crits + extra AS and 2 more ArPen.
As for items, bloodrazor pre-boots 2 is pretty typical when you're doing really well, and when you transition to survivability, Phage provides a good alternative to red buff when you need to be giving it to your ranged carry, plus it builds into mallet, which is a good post-BV and post-GA item to get your health up.
The jungle path in the OP is basically all in on ganks and might be the product of not speccing enough AS to jungle fast enough, but in a standard game you should go blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> razors -> threaten dragon/take dragon. taking that early red really gimps your ganking when you spend red time doing jungle and with my pre-game speccing the smite isn't even up in time for red if you do a straight blue -> wolves -> red. I also start Q, not W, when doing blue golem and when you do this, you can keep your potion to stay high while doing an early dragon.
I too, would favor the 15% magic pen and CDR over 2 armor pen and attack speed boost. I find getting Q's off cooldown is the most useful thing in terms of jungling speed, ganking, diving, etc.
I used some gimmick seals but I eventually still settled on MP5's.
3% CDR and MPen don't improve your jungle speed. I understand where you guys are coming from in terms of late game damage output, but frankly, my #1 concern with WW is early dragon control and my #2 concern with WW is early buff control. Every little bit that I can add to my ability to rule the jungle in the early phases of the game I take because endgame I just find he outlasts everyone anyway (assuming he lives through initial burst).
Bloodrazor and the rest appropriate defenses. Warwick doesn´t have to instagib carrys since he gets high MS to chase with E and he gains a lot survivability from staying alive due to his passive and Q. His offense is mostly % of HP (BR and Q) which don´t scale up via items anyway, they scale on the enemys HP.
On November 05 2010 02:31 travis wrote: ok guys what about end game items for WW?
black cleaver? infinity edge? sometimes i get frozen mallet after bloodrazor
Banshee's Veil and Guardian Angel in whatever order makes sense at the time, then frozen mallet. After that, you can further specialize your defense via FoN or Omen, but I pretty much never end up past Mallet. This is a very very standard WW build, pretty much the safest, most generalized build which you should adhere to if you need to just stick to 1 build as you learn the character (longsword -> madred's razor -> boots 1 -> recurve bow -> BR + Merc Treads (in whatever order makes sense) -> GA + Veil (in whatever order makes sense) -> phage -> Frozen Mallet -> Omen or FoN (depending on opposing team damage output).
Also worth noting IMO is that there are quite a few pre-BR situational items worth considering once you feel comfortable audibling off of the textbook WW build...
vs. Magic heavy teams, WW can pull off a sick mid game with Wit's End + Spirit Visage + Merc Treads after your razors before you work at all towards bloodrazors.
for super fast Baron, WW can opt out of bloodrazor rush for madred's razor + wriggle's lantern + recurve bow + zerker greaves + double elixir. If you can sneak in an extra ward or two to eat up some of his attacks, you can solo Baron at 15 minutes with this off of just slightly more cash that just BR + boots 1 costs, and even without the wards and only 1 elixir, you can duo him with anyone who can take any damage, which is an awesome way to really put your foot on the opposing team's throat after a good early game.
they're fine if you're running off of 3 pages and/or aren't a dedicated WW player, but... lol, you gotta be rockin' that AS if you're serious about jungling WW/Udyr.
the lantern thing for fast baron is like Luxury style 2 hatch hydras. it's janky as hell, but if you catch them off guard, it's such an awkward timing that they get completely rolled by your team with baron out of nowhere. haha, I guess we shouldn't be advising people to do janky stuff, but if I'm like 3/0/2 after laning with solid jungle farm and 2 dragons, I just go for the throat so that they can't drag the game out and look for a comeback. Cuz seriously, who expects baron when you see everyone but the opposing team's jungler at 15 minutes :p?
On November 05 2010 03:03 Mogwai wrote: they're fine if you're running off of 3 pages and/or aren't a dedicated WW player, but... lol, you gotta be rockin' that AS if you're serious about jungling WW/Udyr.
the lantern thing for fast baron is like Luxury style 2 hatch hydras. it's janky as hell, but if you catch them off guard, it's such an awkward timing that they get completely rolled by your team with baron out of nowhere. haha, I guess we shouldn't be advising people to do janky stuff, but if I'm like 3/0/2 after laning with solid jungle farm and 2 dragons, I just go for the throat so that they can't drag the game out and look for a comeback. Cuz seriously, who expects baron when you see everyone but the opposing team's jungler at 15 minutes :p?
If I do the janky build I listed there, I can solo it at 11 I believe (in the games where I have the money and map control to pull it off though, I'm typically 12).
Also why not just lantern + chainvest instead of madreds. The procs dont stack and baron debuff takes away bonus AD anyways. Just sell lantern for BR later on
haha, yea, apparently it's been that way for a long ass time, whoops, crazy that I still manage to jack baron up with that 1000 gold essentially flushed down the drain, LOL.
On November 05 2010 04:57 NeoIllusions wrote: Gizmo, #1 WW.
ezezezez
lol
seriously though, I win a disgustingly large amount with him.
I'm over 80% in ranked with him and one of the 3 losses was when our 5s team was trolling with Karthus, GP, and a Blitz who fucking gave away the easiest gank in the history of the entire world. Goddamn that game pissed me off, next time you ask me to swap GP with you utah, I'm fucking queue dodging, LOL.
So should I be maxing W or E first (after Q)? W helps jungle faster and the team buff can push towers quicker while E gives you more flexibility when chasing an opponent
On November 09 2010 03:10 STS17 wrote: So should I be maxing W or E first (after Q)? W helps jungle faster and the team buff can push towers quicker while E gives you more flexibility when chasing an opponent
I do both rather equally but leaning more towards E. Beyond level 6, 1-2 levels of W is all you need. Once you have Recurve, any additional points in W is a little superfluous. E is great in team fights. Along with your own Ghost, it ensures that any enemies that Flash/Ghost away, you'll be able to reach with auto attack and Q range.
I typically alternate my levels of W and E after Q is maxed. Having only level 1 E until level 14 will sometimes make you miss out on kills you should've gotten, but the need for one over the other varies from game to game. If you're trying to set up a fast baron or fast push strategies though, of course you need to level W more quickly.
On November 09 2010 03:14 Mogwai wrote: I typically alternate my levels of W and E after Q is maxed. Having only level 1 E until level 14 will sometimes make you miss out on kills you should've gotten, but the need for one over the other varies from game to game. If you're trying to set up a fast baron or fast push strategies though, of course you need to level W more quickly.
Yeah, I concur. If you are coming into the game with a plan to do an incredibly early Baron (let's say your team drafted Kog and Shen. You guys can level 13 Baron at around 18:00 with just the 3 of you (WW with Razor+Recurve, Kog with IEdge+Green Elixir, Shen to tank) with the rest of your team in lanes), you can lean more towards W obviously.
But for the most part, E >=W is a good recommendation.
Thanks for the guide Neo. I've picked up WW and trying to play him a bunch. If you guys could please clarify something for me: if WW tries to gank at 4 or so, is it basically just positioning and a bit dependent on the damage that your teammate can help you do? I'm just asking for a situation I suppose, I played a game and tried to gank for a Galio but I guess Galio doesn't sustain enough DPS without a slow or me having R
Ideally you are executing the lvl 4 gank with double buffs and the opposition kind of pushed over into your side, in which case having a good 2/3~3/4th of the lane to run with and red buff slow should be enough for the most part. But yeah, from my experiences, WW ganks are kind of reliant on teammate aid. Just red buff usually isn't enough.
I've seen two variations of WW item builds from some char build sites and it seems like OP is favoring survivability items. I just recently started to play WW and the build I follow suggest me to go for more attack items rather than armors. I go
cloth armor+ward ->razor->boots (the one that give 20% attack speed boost) ->blood razor ->Vampire sceptor ->last whisper ->blood thirst/banshee
is going survivability better than going weapons for WW? I've noticed that WW's ulti does shit damage so I was leaning more toward weapons to increase damage output
Also for the jungling path, recently I've noticed that enemy team often try to gank me at my blue, so I started to start my jungling from enemy blue golem and haven't got ganked there once yet. Is this a common practice? If the enemy has a jungler, I put a ward at enemy blue's bush as fast as i can to see if enemy jungler is starting at blue. If he doesn't start there, i simply steal his blue and it's been working out pretty well...except I kind of suck with WW during late game. thoughts?
Well, it really depends on team composition. I've had games where I even wanted to get IE+LW at some point because we just didn't have enough damage late game. But generally I feel like tank gear scales far better with WW than damage. You should keep in mind that he doesn't really have any damage abilities other than Q. R doesn't even count as damage as much as it counts as a disable. Then recall how WW has a pretty health amount of life pool due to the lifegain. So yeah, generally the tank gear allows you to use the passive and general set of WW's abilities better. Though there are some half-tank half-dmg items like Wit's End that could have a place in certain games.
In terms of jungle path, I have no idea how that can happen really. If I am playing solo Q normal I just start at wraiths->wolves->blue when I think I can't count on teammates to guard me. If I can I go blue first. Opening red with WW tends to be too slow for him so imo it should be avoided, and opening golems wraiths wolves blue is viable as well if you have an actual WW page. Trying to steal their blue to start is honestly a pretty dangerous practice unless they don't know how to smite or don't have smite at all, but I guess if it has been working for you keep at it.
For lategame engagements, I try to use R as a disable and a way to force them to focus me. If there are good initiators on the team, I try to flank into them. If I am the offtank, I usually have to charge in pretty early myself and save R for after the first round of CCs hit.
On November 14 2010 03:22 The6357 wrote: I've seen two variations of WW item builds from some char build sites and it seems like OP is favoring survivability items. I just recently started to play WW and the build I follow suggest me to go for more attack items rather than armors. I go
cloth armor+ward ->razor->boots (the one that give 20% attack speed boost) ->blood razor ->Vampire sceptor ->last whisper ->blood thirst/banshee
is going survivability better than going weapons for WW? I've noticed that WW's ulti does shit damage so I was leaning more toward weapons to increase damage output
Also for the jungling path, recently I've noticed that enemy team often try to gank me at my blue, so I started to start my jungling from enemy blue golem and haven't got ganked there once yet. Is this a common practice? If the enemy has a jungler, I put a ward at enemy blue's bush as fast as i can to see if enemy jungler is starting at blue. If he doesn't start there, i simply steal his blue and it's been working out pretty well...except I kind of suck with WW during late game. thoughts?
Well, the thing is, when you get to level 30 or start playing good players starting at their blue is basically suicide unless you know exactly where they are the whole time you're taking it, and it usually leaves your team to 4v5 while they jack your red buff or something, then you're stuck in their jungle with their buff as they all come towards their side of the map lol.
Anyway those guides are pretty much trash. Read the opening post here and follow it, listen to everything mogwai and neo said. Basically most of warwick's damage comes from being in a fight for a long time and doing %hp attacks with bloodrazors/his Q so you want to go razors -> merc -> bloodrazors -> GA 90% of the time. There is no real reason to build him to instagib a carry when the simple fact that you're suppressing one of their teammates should get your team the kill anyway. You want to be alive to chase them down at the end of the fight because your passive is HUGE. It feels like you're not doing as much damage but really warwick isn't the main source of damage on the team, he's more of a tanky dps that holds one person down and chases really well.
This is probably gunna be laughed at, but I just figured I'd ask a simple thing.
Most people tend to stop at GA & BV with their items. If omst of Warwick's damage comes from %'s, why not get like a zeal or PD after all this? It'd help with ihs ASpd...
then again I dont have a full thing of ASpd runes, nor am I a lv 30, so I start out slow still.
On November 14 2010 07:52 Daxunyrr wrote: This is probably gunna be laughed at, but I just figured I'd ask a simple thing.
Most people tend to stop at GA & BV with their items. If omst of Warwick's damage comes from %'s, why not get like a zeal or PD after all this? It'd help with ihs ASpd...
then again I dont have a full thing of ASpd runes, nor am I a lv 30, so I start out slow still.
The idea is really that you are hitting quite fast with just green + bloodrazer, but there are games where things like Wit's End has a purpose. PD is an overrated item, the stats it give just aren't too useful for the price, but the zeal could definitely have some situational use.
Also about what 5hit said, I really feel that GA is quite lackluster with WW now after its nerf. I've been much more in favor of HoG->randuins or an early banshee's myself. The revive now is really weak, and WW has never been much of a priority focus target. All the GA seems to do is allow you to get a really bad initiation in R, die for it, and then revive and maybe not die within the next second.
i prefer massive armor pen to attack speed since attack speed doesnt incraese your damage output at all unless some1 is just standing there getting owned by you like baron/dragon
but I play warwick for his mid/lategame not his early game so
dont have any problem keeping up in level in jungle tho ;o usually hit 6 before my opponent with my route
It was just a thought. Nothing more. It just seems like it'd be a nice thing to get after BV. I mean I know you cap out pretty quick in ASpd between W & Green, but I just figured the extra ms & everything could help out with the swift kills. My experience with enemy WW's is we're running at half health, he comes outta nowhere, shreds us n vanishes.
On November 14 2010 10:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: But it's still important because it draws aggro off of you, it's really dumb to focus down the guy with GA first regardless of his respawn health.
But like, the point of tank gear on WW is partly that you can serve as an offtank that they can't quite ignore. Banshee/Randuins gives you CC blocking and chasing power, all GA does is ensure that if you die, you can revive to maybe die again.
I personally feel like that GA is a mentality developed back then with its high respawn health and how WW used to played like an ult bot to trade 1 for 1. Now though GA and the general WW style just doesn't seem to mesh too well together.
On November 14 2010 10:20 Daxunyrr wrote: It was just a thought. Nothing more. It just seems like it'd be a nice thing to get after BV. I mean I know you cap out pretty quick in ASpd between W & Green, but I just figured the extra ms & everything could help out with the swift kills. My experience with enemy WW's is we're running at half health, he comes outta nowhere, shreds us n vanishes.
But how did you get to the half health point in teamfights? If you lost, WW being present in the actual fight and being able to take and dish punishment would've won the fight even more decisively for them. If you won and WW wasn't there in their teamfight, then he made a mistake in not being there and is trying to make up for some of it by hopefully trading 1 for 1. If you are just getting picked off, then that's poor play.
I think Zeal makes a bit of sense, it is a pretty efficient item cost wise afaik. However, that style really just turns WW into an assassin, which he doesn't really do too well as.
You definitely get a ton of EHP from GA though, if you were using it for the second revive only I think you're underestimating how much armor and MR you get from it. I do agree that Banshees and Randuins are definitely good, but GA is really, really clutch as your next item because it gives you all-around survivability and a revive to boot.
Thing is that I feel like I can slap down a HoG and a Negatrons easily for just 1600, and then 1k can work toward the randuins or banshee's as I need to complete, the former even has the benefit of needing a chainmail somewhere in there so there is plenty of armor. GA on the other hand has a lower MR, no additional HP/mana, and a passive that's questionable in how useful it is.
The half health isn't in the team fights, its usually early-mid game. Once they get to the end game and the team fights do, the ones I fight against do something weird. It's like they jump in with blue buff, dish out ult & do some chaos, then run off in the chaos and jump at any escapers instead of staying in there the whole time. I guess we focused em that much or something.
Edit - I see GA as a powerful escape tool. A lot of people know you spawn back with 750 HP. (Generally they will think they can win still) If you can manage to get someone to about 47-48% HP before you die, press E the instant you res n start runnin. You get a move speed n can escape. Generally what I'll do is I'll do an obvious run into a jungle, munch on wolves to regain HP, then jump back on the guy when he chases me
Im starting to play WW again, but no one ever pushes. All my teammates push but when we back off, they still turret hug. What do I do then, just horde the jungle? Cause it seems like Im startin to fall behind the team without ganks.
there are alot of things you can't do without a ga. like suiciding isn't an option obviously, but ww being a melee dps dies a ton. you can't just rambo in and focus a guy down without ga, and having the ability to not worry about dying and ulti their main dps is really useful.
i dont like rushing ga but getting it after your main tank items is really good and is extremely clutch. ga is amazing on most melee dps, not so much tanks or ranged.
I don't see how bt could ever be a good idea unless you're either crushing (in which case it's sword of the occult BF style) or playing a super super farmy hero like sivir. Losing stacks on that thing is huge and it takes forever to build up.
On November 04 2010 23:49 Mogwai wrote:More or less stealing from HwangJk, I run almost entirely Attack Speed runes with some ArmorPenetration mixed in (get 10 ArPen from Runes, you can do this via 6 marks or 3 Quints, the ultimate effect is the same). Defensive masteries aren't at all necessary on WW, so I run 9/0/21 to get some RNG faster jungling off crits + extra AS and 2 more ArPen.
I've seen a few ppl mention the 10 ArPen is like the magic number. Any particular reason why?
Also I've got most of the generic runes and a good amount of IP saved up, does any other champ benefit from attack speed runes?
On November 04 2010 23:49 Mogwai wrote:More or less stealing from HwangJk, I run almost entirely Attack Speed runes with some ArmorPenetration mixed in (get 10 ArPen from Runes, you can do this via 6 marks or 3 Quints, the ultimate effect is the same). Defensive masteries aren't at all necessary on WW, so I run 9/0/21 to get some RNG faster jungling off crits + extra AS and 2 more ArPen.
I've seen a few ppl mention the 10 ArPen is like the magic number. Any particular reason why?
Also I've got most of the generic runes and a good amount of IP saved up, does any other champ benefit from attack speed runes?
On November 04 2010 23:49 Mogwai wrote:More or less stealing from HwangJk, I run almost entirely Attack Speed runes with some ArmorPenetration mixed in (get 10 ArPen from Runes, you can do this via 6 marks or 3 Quints, the ultimate effect is the same). Defensive masteries aren't at all necessary on WW, so I run 9/0/21 to get some RNG faster jungling off crits + extra AS and 2 more ArPen.
I've seen a few ppl mention the 10 ArPen is like the magic number. Any particular reason why?
Also I've got most of the generic runes and a good amount of IP saved up, does any other champ benefit from attack speed runes?
On November 15 2010 13:29 Darkchylde wrote: I've seen a few ppl mention the 10 ArPen is like the magic number. Any particular reason why?
Also I've got most of the generic runes and a good amount of IP saved up, does any other champ benefit from attack speed runes?
I think 10 is the magic number because armor pen doesn't reduce armor below 0 like armor reduction does. So if you get more than that it doesn't help you jungle.
I'm actually not sure why it's 10 as some of the creeps have less than 10 armor. But the creeps with less than 10 armor suck anyway so whatever.
The OP could use some cleanups and some additions after 5 pages of the thread...
I find it pretty hilarious that people have so much to discuss over such a retarded easy character tho :S
Also as other said nobody rushes bloodrazor ever unless they are being fed superhard. Tbh I don't ever feel the need to get it, it's more of something I get once I feel that I can ult without exploding. As for tank items WW can use anything aswell.
On November 16 2010 16:23 r33k wrote: The OP could use some cleanups and some additions after 5 pages of the thread...
I find it pretty hilarious that people have so much to discuss over such a retarded easy character tho :S
Also as other said nobody rushes bloodrazor ever unless they are being fed superhard. Tbh I don't ever feel the need to get it, it's more of something I get once I feel that I can ult without exploding. As for tank items WW can use anything aswell.
Actually your post is the exact reason we have this thread, to clear up misconceptions like this. Warwick is easy and really strong so the strength of the character and his retarded early/midgame advantages will carry you through most games regardless of what you do. When you get to the higher levels it starts becoming a different issue though. Brees, Mogwai and Ezpz changed my perspective on warwick, I used to think like you do until each of them taught me things about higher level play that basically showed me I wasn't really winning my games on skill but enemies being retarded.
Simple things like rushing bloodrazors being crucial because of the timing on them. You don't want to get them after your tank items because then you can't disappear at 11 and kill baron. Item choice post madreds isn't really hard but it is worth discussing, like when to get randuins and when to get double negatron. People count creep kills much better as you get higher in level so they'll know if you started at wraiths or small golems or blue buff and sometimes it's worthwhile to do things like kill two wolves and then go blue buff to throw them off your jungling path. Dragons are a gamble and pretty much impossible to get because everyone will keep checking it even if it's not warded if your CS isnt rising constantly. They'll also be more aware of when you're ganking for the same reasons, like if you've got 15 cs they'll know you have blue + red and you're about to gank, and they probably will play passive and watch dragon until you start killing creeps again, in which case they can know where you are from how many creeps you kill.
Like I said, you guys are focusing too much on what warwick does as a champion and not enough on how to play him.
On November 16 2010 16:27 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I used to think like you do until each of them taught me things about higher level play that basically showed me I wasn't really winning my games on skill but enemies being retarded.
QFT, This is how LoL works for everything below 1500-1600 ELO. It's not about which team is better, it's which team is less bad.
Since Pantheon is perma-banned atm, I've been playing a lot of WW and feel like sharing my thoughts on him recently:
9/0/21 with 2% crit, improved smite, 3% CDR and 15% MPen. It hurts your jungle speed by a couple seconds, but it's worth it :p.
AS Red/Quints, Armor Yellows, Flat CDR Blues.
open longsword vs. a poor counter jungler, cloth + 2 hp pots + ward vs. a strong counter jungler.
with longsword you can try to cheese a fast dragon with blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> gols -> razors -> dragon, with cloth, open small gols -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue -> small gols -> red -> wraiths -> wolves, warding dragon semi quickly vs. guys who are good at it. Any early ganks should pay for a vision ward at dragon to make it safer.
Here's the item build (items on the same level have interchangable timings depending on the game but I prefer left items before right items): razors + boots Spirit Visage + HoG + Merc Treads Banshee's Veil + Randuin's Omen + Bloodrazors
Bloodrazors are a really low priority with Visage + Blue Buff/Omen because you have maxed CDR for lots of Qs. You also typically get to ult at the start of the fight and then again to catch the last person when you're tying up the loose ends, which is huge. The reason I like this a lot better is that when you don't have Red Buff, it's basically impossible to stick to a fleeing carry and attack them a bunch. By building like this, when you have teamfights after it's become time to give your carry red buff, you can still chase people down with animation canceled Qs and just stick to them with your E.
Skills look like: QWQEQR -> R > Q > E > W. You don't need W when you're not auto-attacking that much and as I said above, E is what lets you stick to and kill people, so you want that extra speed and range.
On December 07 2010 07:49 Brees wrote: interesting seeing how other people play warwick, I dont even level E
and i get bloodrazor's asap.
also run armor pen
1-16-13 masteries
You don't like to chase? :[ W is overrated imo. Unless you're running some gimmicky 5 smite team with a Sivir ulti, lawlz.
there's a reason why im always way higher level then the other jungler. I play farm style warwick, i dont chase shit, and if i do gank my ghost is definitely up
thats why i dont run atk speeds as well, they are garbage runes overall
usually lvl 6-7 before i make my first trip back, as a result ive had dragon cheesed on me before but i feel that is way more bot lane's responsibility then the jungler. they have 2 there so they can ward whenever, i dont see a reason to make your jungler go back early and gimp him
On December 07 2010 07:49 Brees wrote: interesting seeing how other people play warwick, I dont even level E
and i get bloodrazor's asap.
also run armor pen
1-16-13 masteries
You don't like to chase? :[ W is overrated imo. Unless you're running some gimmicky 5 smite team with a Sivir ulti, lawlz.
there's a reason why im always way higher level then the other jungler. I play farm style warwick, i dont chase shit, and if i do gank my ghost is definitely up
thats why i dont run atk speeds as well, they are garbage runes overall
usually lvl 6-7 before i make my first trip back, as a result ive had dragon cheesed on me before but i feel that is way more bot lane's responsibility then the jungler. they have 2 there so they can ward whenever, i dont see a reason to make your jungler go back early and gimp him
Why max W first but no AS runes? That's like going half/half on your ideal. Farm WW but doesn't want to AS runes. Doesn't advocate chasing but you get ArmorPen?
Wouldn't true afk farm WW be AS Red/Quints and max W? ArmorPen doesn't help in the jungle afaik.
On December 07 2010 08:02 crate wrote: APen does help against jungle creeps, they all have armor. I can't say whether it helps more than ASpeed though since I don't have the runes to test.
this ^ armor pen + the increased attack speed is infinitely more effective then straight attack speed, in fights, your ult, etc everything. attack speed runes are soooooo bad except for udyr.
and durp forgot the most important part, your W benefits your entire team
It's on the whole team IMO. I cheese dragon a lot and I always think that all players should be diligent about checking Jungle CS routinely to see suspiciously quiet CS for dragon cheese. I mean, really predictable timings too... fucking 15 CS Amumu/WW stays at 15 CS for a minute, you know you just gave up dragon for not checking 10 seconds ago. It always pisses me off when I ping like crazy from somewhere in the jungle for someone to check dragon asap and then they go like 15 seconds later to see Udyr running away from dead dragon.
I like HP/level yellows on warwick more than armor yellows now, mostly to get extra good value out of the double-negatron or cheap armor items that I eventually end up building.
funniest game recently (redtooth duo'd with me so he might remember)
the other team's poppy and shen spent a lot of the game counter jungling me and after all was said and done I was lvl 10 and they were both level 7 lol.
I run 1/8/21 but I'm thinking about switching over to 9/0/21. I really think Strength of Spirit is valuable throughout the whole game, but I'm not sure if it's better than the pen. I advocate a full aspd page, but I don't test anything so I'm sure there's a more optimal mix of pen/dmg/aspd as far as jungle times go.
What makes a big difference to me is that late game, when I'm 18 with bloodrazors, I'm putting out more damage than warwicks with armor pages and pen pages because each attack hits a proc.
And there are some of those games where you just get into the middle of a 5v5 and completely lose track of what's going on, and your aspd saves you because of your passive and bloodrazors chewing through enemies while Q is down.
On December 07 2010 08:02 crate wrote: APen does help against jungle creeps, they all have armor. I can't say whether it helps more than ASpeed though since I don't have the runes to test.
this ^ armor pen + the increased attack speed is infinitely more effective then straight attack speed, in fights, your ult, etc everything. attack speed runes are soooooo bad except for udyr.
and durp forgot the most important part, your W benefits your entire team
theres a lot of ways to build ww. if i had more rune pages id have at least 3 dedicated to him -one for fast dragon(like .. done at 4min, start at level 3) Hell why not even take flash and sit behind dragon while doing it. it would be important to know smite dmg at level 3 to dragon. -one similar to brees ww when lanes seem tough and they can counterjungle -a page with lots of mres/lvl
my current ww rune page/masteries is a combination of all of these, slightly delayed dragon ~4;30 a little movespeed and utility for ganking with armor ylws to just be high hp (armor ylws allow me to kill 2 small wolves so it looks like im doing minigolems then go blue buff (perfectly at 1;55 no delay), pulling back blue buff+ hp pot when theres danger) a little mres
to be honest i prefer this because if i need to gank i can gank, if i need to dragon i can dragon, if twitch sits behind me and tries to gank me at blue im ok , although usually the 2 cs tricks them. For example, shaco stole my red one game, he wouldve almost certainly done more but then he saw my cs go to 2 and choose not to box the brush leading to my wraiths, etc etc. Some olafs also like to do blue wolves (your wraiths) then gank you in that brush (hi nintendudex)
i run a variety of "playstyles" now if theres too much cc , razors pickaxe into tank. Armor pen runes would be ideal because u wont have br for a long time if there's no cc or they are a very tank heavy team, straight BR no questions, atk speed runes would be more ideal here
not really sure if theres a build thats always 100% best
On December 07 2010 08:49 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I run 1/8/21 but I'm thinking about switching over to 9/0/21. I really think Strength of Spirit is valuable throughout the whole game, but I'm not sure if it's better than the pen. I advocate a full aspd page, but I don't test anything so I'm sure there's a more optimal mix of pen/dmg/aspd as far as jungle times go.
What makes a big difference to me is that late game, when I'm 18 with bloodrazors, I'm putting out more damage than warwicks with armor pages and pen pages because each attack hits a proc.
And there are some of those games where you just get into the middle of a 5v5 and completely lose track of what's going on, and your aspd saves you because of your passive and bloodrazors chewing through enemies while Q is down.
attack speed users assume that the enemy is just gonna sit there and let you get every attack off on them...this is rarely the case. also armor pen even with no damage items still increases DPS output tremendously
Smite sucks. It serves no purpose after the initial blue golem, and you are better off asking your teammates to hit the golem a few times before going to lane. After you get the first golem, you should not have any problem.
On December 07 2010 12:11 DragonDefonce wrote: Smite sucks. It serves no purpose after the initial blue golem, and you are better off asking your teammates to hit the golem a few times before going to lane. After you get the first golem, you should not have any problem.
Don't spew nonsense, thanks. All competent junglers take Smite.
On December 07 2010 08:49 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I run 1/8/21 but I'm thinking about switching over to 9/0/21. I really think Strength of Spirit is valuable throughout the whole game, but I'm not sure if it's better than the pen. I advocate a full aspd page, but I don't test anything so I'm sure there's a more optimal mix of pen/dmg/aspd as far as jungle times go.
What makes a big difference to me is that late game, when I'm 18 with bloodrazors, I'm putting out more damage than warwicks with armor pages and pen pages because each attack hits a proc.
And there are some of those games where you just get into the middle of a 5v5 and completely lose track of what's going on, and your aspd saves you because of your passive and bloodrazors chewing through enemies while Q is down.
attack speed users assume that the enemy is just gonna sit there and let you get every attack off on them...this is rarely the case. also armor pen even with no damage items still increases DPS output tremendously
I agree with what you are saying but Warwick has a chase passive that activates whenever ANY enemy is low/ghost/a flash-to-target disable/randuins so it's actually not hard to stick to someone and either way you can just retarget and be a huge dps output instead of an assassin. Personal preference really, there will be games where pen will be more useful and games where aspd will be more useful.
I also like that it helps proc razors on buffs/dragon.
On December 07 2010 12:11 DragonDefonce wrote: Smite sucks. It serves no purpose after the initial blue golem, and you are better off asking your teammates to hit the golem a few times before going to lane. After you get the first golem, you should not have any problem.
Do not listen to anything this man says, smite is invaluable.
On December 07 2010 12:11 DragonDefonce wrote: Smite sucks. It serves no purpose after the initial blue golem, and you are better off asking your teammates to hit the golem a few times before going to lane. After you get the first golem, you should not have any problem.
look, it's every < 1300 elo player ever, rolled into one post!
On December 07 2010 12:11 DragonDefonce wrote: Smite sucks. It serves no purpose after the initial blue golem, and you are better off asking your teammates to hit the golem a few times before going to lane. After you get the first golem, you should not have any problem.
lol dps warwick is horrible i assume u run cleanse ghost? Abine on US server?
WW's who jungle and say smite sucks generally run ignite/ghost or exhaust/ghost and think they're amazing when they get kills against people who overextend. At least from what I've seen of such players.
On December 07 2010 16:40 BlackPaladin wrote: WW's who jungle and say smite sucks generally run ignite/ghost or exhaust/ghost and think they're amazing when they get kills against people who overextend. At least from what I've seen of such players.
take smite and steal their drag blue red baron
laugh at them, for jungling slower and not fullfllling the drag / baron duty (:
Some people also run smite and uses it every once its off coooldown.
I think AS runes are the way to go with WW, just because of jungling. His healing has been somewhat nerfed, and now you dont get to be full health at early lvl jungling (still have tons of health though). AS makes you attack faster, so you hit less than with ArPen runes but heal more. Once you get razors ArPen is useless compared to AS because it all comes down to how many times you proc razors.
The no-smite WWs I see on EU (1500+) usually go Exhaust/Ignite. I once stole dragon from one of these with Kassadin and asked him if he now understands why good junglers take smite. Later on he got a kill and immediately shouted back that this is why you don't take smite...
Yeah whenever I get a guy who calls for jungle and doesn't takesmite I ask him ifhe knows why smite is good on junglers. After the inevitable 'stfu I don't need smite it's for noobs' I take smite and steal their buffs until they ragequit. Well worth a loss IMO
I love queuing up and seeing an ignite / ghost or exhaust / ghost WW insta-lock in and claim the jungle. Then respond with "lol WW doesn't need smite" when you ask.
Also, there was this one guy who I actually took the time to explain why smite was valuable, and I happened to have the fortune of being put up against a WW with smite ghost (ours had exhaust ghost) and thought we would be able to demonstrate how much faster and effective smite makes jungling - but of course not, theirs DCd about 3 minutes in for about 5 minutes and was unable to recover.
So naturally our WW took it upon himself to explain to me after the game was over why exhaust > smite
The problem with trying to explain why Smite is better than Exhaust/Ignite/whatever is that it's dependent on the understanding that being able to control buffs/Dragon/Baron is superior to a few kills. And if someone doesn't understand that, taking the time to explain it isn't something you can do in a few short sentences.
On December 11 2010 20:31 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Why do you take HP quints? What do they do for you in particular that makes you choose them over something else?
Personally, I feel like nearly 100 health flat starting off is exceptional compared to all other runes. I've never had any other quints to try, but the ones I looked over it never seemed to be more useful than 100 extra health.
However, I've been trying to think of a way to had mana regen into my build. I'm struggling with mana regen throughout the entire game - if I ever don't have golem I'm useless after a couple Qs/R, and even though I could be full health, I have no sustainability within fights.
On December 11 2010 20:31 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Why do you take HP quints? What do they do for you in particular that makes you choose them over something else?
Personally, I feel like nearly 100 health flat starting off is exceptional compared to all other runes. I've never had any other quints to try, but the ones I looked over it never seemed to be more useful than 100 extra health.
However, I've been trying to think of a way to had mana regen into my build. I'm struggling with mana regen throughout the entire game - if I ever don't have golem I'm useless after a couple Qs/R, and even though I could be full health, I have no sustainability within fights.
Anyone have any suggestions on that?
stop using Q on jungle creeps when you don't have blue buff. At least that's how I keep my mana high. I also tend to get a pretty fast b-veil, which gives you a nice 400 mana to work with.
I pretty much never run out of mana in fights, I dunno why. Meditation should take care of it, it's not like WW is super mana intensive anyway. Try to know when teamfights are coming up and save your mana. If you're low on mana and can't get a blue buff it's probably time to back anyway. Also yes, you don't need to q minions once you have bloodrazors.
I prefer spirit visage to banshees nowadays but it's really matchup dependent. CDR is such a great stat when your ult and your q are both such teamfight wreckers.
On December 14 2010 02:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I pretty much never run out of mana in fights, I dunno why. Meditation should take care of it, it's not like WW is super mana intensive anyway. Try to know when teamfights are coming up and save your mana. If you're low on mana and can't get a blue buff it's probably time to back anyway. Also yes, you don't need to q minions once you have bloodrazors.
I prefer spirit visage to banshees nowadays but it's really matchup dependent. CDR is such a great stat when your ult and your q are both such teamfight wreckers.
you know me, I tend to have both of them before bloodrazors, lol.
On December 12 2010 12:57 TieN.nS) wrote: That's a pretty big no-brainer, just get aspd quints if you really like all that aspd and use mp5/lvl yellows. Spec 1-8-21 too.
9/0/21 for the extra CDR and 15% mpen for even more Q's imo.
On December 12 2010 12:57 TieN.nS) wrote: That's a pretty big no-brainer, just get aspd quints if you really like all that aspd and use mp5/lvl yellows. Spec 1-8-21 too.
9/0/21 for the extra CDR and 15% mpen for even more Q's imo.
yea, WW really doesn't need SoS. 15% mpen is invaluable on him, at least how I play him.
On November 04 2010 23:49 Mogwai wrote: sry, these rune suggestions are pretty far from specialized Warwick pages.
More or less stealing from HwangJk, I run almost entirely Attack Speed runes with some ArmorPenetration mixed in (get 10 ArPen from Runes, you can do this via 6 marks or 3 Quints, the ultimate effect is the same). Defensive masteries aren't at all necessary on WW, so I run 9/0/21 to get some RNG faster jungling off crits + extra AS and 2 more ArPen.
As for items, bloodrazor pre-boots 2 is pretty typical when you're doing really well, and when you transition to survivability, Phage provides a good alternative to red buff when you need to be giving it to your ranged carry, plus it builds into mallet, which is a good post-BV and post-GA item to get your health up.
The jungle path in the OP is basically all in on ganks and might be the product of not speccing enough AS to jungle fast enough, but in a standard game you should go blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> razors -> threaten dragon/take dragon. taking that early red really gimps your ganking when you spend red time doing jungle and with my pre-game speccing the smite isn't even up in time for red if you do a straight blue -> wolves -> red. I also start Q, not W, when doing blue golem and when you do this, you can keep your potion to stay high while doing an early dragon.
On November 05 2010 00:36 Mogwai wrote: 3% CDR and MPen don't improve your jungle speed. I understand where you guys are coming from in terms of late game damage output, but frankly, my #1 concern with WW is early dragon control and my #2 concern with WW is early buff control. Every little bit that I can add to my ability to rule the jungle in the early phases of the game I take because endgame I just find he outlasts everyone anyway (assuming he lives through initial burst).
On December 12 2010 12:57 TieN.nS) wrote: That's a pretty big no-brainer, just get aspd quints if you really like all that aspd and use mp5/lvl yellows. Spec 1-8-21 too.
9/0/21 for the extra CDR and 15% mpen for even more Q's imo.
yea, WW really doesn't need SoS. 15% mpen is invaluable on him, at least how I play him.
wat happened in this last month ehuheuhue that made you change your mind so hard
ummm, I dunno, I just stumbled back into reasonably high elo where you have competent carry players. at lower elos, I found myself just taking games into my own hands with WW and now that I can rely on the people who should be doing damage to actually do their damage, I just play as more of an off-tank counter-carry. You also don't get as many free ganks at higher elo. It's easy to justify a 15 minute BR rush, but when you can't get that sort of income because you're not starting every game 5-0 with 2 uncontested dragons, you start to realize that having an unfinished bloodrazor vs. SV and HoG is less valuable in terms of making yourself a problem to the opposing team.
I still get it but that extra 300 gold hurts pretty bad. I get BRs faster now since literally every tanking item I'd buy on WW got nerfed and I also sometimes mix GA in since it did not get nerfed.
Before you got told by me you were insistent on using zerk boots >:3
I wouldn't get a second HoG "if you're raping dicks": i would rather just complete my core items faster. A second HoG imo is a response to a AD carry that is doing very well etc.
I don't think the recurve is completely necessary either because with some good number of aspd runes + his w, ww's jungling speed with razor stays extremely strong. In most teamfights at that point you won't be autoattacking like crazy, and the main purpose of your autoattacks is to apply red buff / something to do while your q and w and r are on cd. I would rather be impossible to kill than add an extra second autoattack here and there; that 1050 gold is easily translated into a faster negatron / visage components + wards especially if they have a caster on a roll.
Before you got told by me you were insistent on using zerk boots >:3
eh i actually still use greaves on him pretty often. depends on the other team comp.
I wouldn't get a second HoG "if you're raping dicks": i would rather just complete my core items faster. A second HoG imo is a response to a AD carry that is doing very well etc.
hog is number one item. go away.
I don't think the recurve is completely necessary either because with some good number of aspd runes + his w, ww's jungling speed with razor stays extremely strong. In most teamfights at that point you won't be autoattacking like crazy, and the main purpose of your autoattacks is to apply red buff / something to do while your q and w and r are on cd. I would rather be impossible to kill than add an extra second autoattack here and there; that 1050 gold is easily translated into a faster negatron / visage components + wards especially if they have a caster on a roll.
maybe. I only have as marks atm, so I need a pretty fast recurve.
Lulz ensue. Timing is perfect for their second spawn. If you have a dedicated warwick rune page you will even be a bit faster, then you can pop out of the mid bush to scare before popping back in and playing more PvE.
On January 04 2011 12:48 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Just a side note, I was right 3 months ago, razors -> boots -> double null magic mantle -> visage/merc -> HoG/Bloodrazors/Banshees.
Good, that's how I've been building warwick.. then I read this thread and got scared!
I actually think with all the tanking items getting nerfed that WW legitimately needs to tailor his build to games. I've been doing all sorts of shit recently from BR rush to GA rush to my old HoG + SV opening, it all feels situational.
On January 05 2011 00:51 Mogwai wrote: I actually think with all the tanking items getting nerfed that WW legitimately needs to tailor his build to games. I've been doing all sorts of shit recently from BR rush to GA rush to my old HoG + SV opening, it all feels situational.
Well at my Elo BR rushing gains nothing. I can baron at any time in the game pretty much, and usually do so with one other person helping. I haven't been getting an early HoG in my games and I think that's a mistake, I'm going to try that more often now. But SV is definitely core for me.
On January 05 2011 00:51 Mogwai wrote: I actually think with all the tanking items getting nerfed that WW legitimately needs to tailor his build to games. I've been doing all sorts of shit recently from BR rush to GA rush to my old HoG + SV opening, it all feels situational.
Quoted for emphasis, I almost always opt for either SV or HoG after razors/boots, but sometimes I straight GA or BR rush too.
I need to update all my threads to reflect the current patch.
But for WW, go 9 0 21. Smash has convinced me that CDR and Magic Pen helps Q a lot more than SoS off WW's small mana pool. Defensively, most WW go SV and HoG first before finishing Bloodrazor.
Ehhhhh, rushing to spend 1050 gold yourself to get 950 gold for the team does not sound like the best strategy to me. Especially since it slows down your SV/HoG, is risky to do it solo in the first place, and you could simply do it with your teammates. Sure you'll use the recurve bow eventually to finish MBR but early on where you spend your gold is more important.
I actually think recurve is an amazing boost to your dps early on if you can afford it and you don't need your HoG/SV off the bat. It helps with dragon soooooo much and getting dragon for your team is sooooooo huge.
On January 06 2011 05:30 gtrsrs wrote: wraith jack and get first blood
Are you skipping boots or wards?
if i get first blood i skip boots but with wraith jack + first blood (assuming long sword start so you don't waste $ on 5 potions) you can afford madreds, 1-2 pots, recurve and one ward by level 5
On January 06 2011 07:26 BlackPaladin wrote: Ehhhhh, rushing to spend 1050 gold yourself to get 950 gold for the team does not sound like the best strategy to me. Especially since it slows down your SV/HoG, is risky to do it solo in the first place, and you could simply do it with your teammates. Sure you'll use the recurve bow eventually to finish MBR but early on where you spend your gold is more important.
recurve bow is phenomenal for taking down towers and ganking (assuming you have red). your AS with recurve and W activated is like 1.5 at level 6, no one is getting away from you with that kind of AS, then you take tower for free.
i'm no WW pro but i feel like every time i play him is a free win. my path if i know there are wards or our lanes are always too pushed to gank: wraith jack (leave 1 wraith) -> your wolves -> wraiths -> golem (b to buy cloth armor) -> blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> wolves -> wraiths puts you 1 creep's worth of experience until level 6. go to mid/top to gank, you hit level 6 during the middle of your gank and finish it with infinite duress, red will just be ending during your gank too
long sword + 1 pot, clothe armor when noted, madreds + boots + pots + wards first buy, second buy is recurve + pickaxe, third buy is BRs, you can have them by 17 minutes with just a kill and an assist iirc. everything after that is survivability - mercs, randuin, wits end, thornmail, force of nature. i don't like spirit visage in this build because i get it too late, past it's prime imo
Don't skip boots, get boots + null magic mantle + wards on first b if you have that much. Recurve is nice but it's only working because your opponents are terrible.
I tested several times in practice games and I can still solo dragon at level 4 with relative ease using dual buff + razor + 1-2 pots. One time my blue buff even ran out when I started dragon and I ended up with <100 hp. I do have flat armor yellows though, maybe that's the difference.
Honestly though dragon is such a dangerous objective now that it's not even worth it to take it that early. It's so nice that they can't just force a dragon when one is down because dragon will totally fuck up 3 champs at level 4-6.
just like bw zerglings unless I have red buff. if they have no way of recovering health and I'm confident in my ability to just chase with Q, I'll usually do that though because ww's attack animation isn't the greatest and you'll lose ground by auto-attacking which might cost you a Q.
If you have red buff, shouldn't you always autoattack before Q to proc the slow? I've seen a lot of people miss getting the red buff proc because they Q'd and then enemy used an ability to get away and wasn't ever slowed.
also because if you q+ auto then ulti, you can do more dps, rather than going straight in and using R. unless then can escape, you'll burst them down within the stun anyways, u need the lifesteal , etc.
It's insanely useful on ranged carries if you don't wanna misclick and walk into a fight from perfect range. On ww you just a-move and try to retarget if you really need to focus somebody.
On January 07 2011 20:43 dnastyx wrote: Words of Wisdom from 5HITCOMBO: "Yeah, in a teamfight as Yi you just want to a-move...it's kind of like playing Protoss."
Same applies to Warwick?!?!?!
I once canceled 4 autos in a row because I spammed attacks ;;
One thing that I've come to realize about warwick is that you can't delay your bloodrazors for both HoG AND spirit visage in important games. You need to get at least the recurve before you build the 2nd defensive item that's not merc otherwise you won't put out enough damage with your auto attack to be a threat during the mid-lategame transition phase, where you pretty much want to have bloodrazors finished at.
On January 10 2011 19:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: One thing that I've come to realize about warwick is that you can't delay your bloodrazors for both HoG AND spirit visage in important games. You need to get at least the recurve before you build the 2nd defensive item that's not merc otherwise you won't put out enough damage with your auto attack to be a threat during the mid-lategame transition phase, where you pretty much want to have bloodrazors finished at.
still feels really situational to me. Sometimes I feel good about HoG + SV before bloodrazors and other times I feel like I can't afford it.
I agree, but I always feel better about my damage output with bloodrazors even if I die in a fight. I play a team-oriented death-heavy style of WW which I think trumps surviving every fight though.
A 30~ minute Bloodrazor sounds about right to me, +/- 5 minutes depending on your comp, i.e. you have shen/zilean just rush it vs no tank but 2 dps delay it for both.
Guys, I run 2 HP Quints (not 30 yet), a bunch of Arpen runes in red, Mp5 in blue and yellow and for some reason I cant do golem at lvl 1. I skill W first and get longsword + HP Pot. I use smite obviously. With 21 in defensive it works but with 9/0/21 I die shortly before the golem gets to 500 HP. Any advise? I don't have the points for attackspeed runes.
On January 18 2011 04:45 Woony wrote: Guys, I run 2 HP Quints (not 30 yet), a bunch of Arpen runes in red, Mp5 in blue and yellow and for some reason I cant do golem at lvl 1. I skill W first and get longsword + HP Pot. I use smite obviously. With 21 in defensive it works but with 9/0/21 I die shortly before the golem gets to 500 HP. Any advise? I don't have the points for attackspeed runes.
On January 18 2011 04:45 Woony wrote: Guys, I run 2 HP Quints (not 30 yet), a bunch of Arpen runes in red, Mp5 in blue and yellow and for some reason I cant do golem at lvl 1. I skill W first and get longsword + HP Pot. I use smite obviously. With 21 in defensive it works but with 9/0/21 I die shortly before the golem gets to 500 HP. Any advise? I don't have the points for attackspeed runes.
I believe the W/sword path is either wraiths or small gols first, then wolves, then blue at level 2 with Q.
I have health quints, mp5 blues, attackspeed yellows and armor pen reds with 1-8-21. With that setup you can start blue with sword+pot. Runes are probably far from optimal but I don't have alot of runes so I'm just using what I got.
On January 18 2011 10:50 Nehsb wrote: Q + sword + pot works for me
around 200 hp left if you start at golem
aspd/mp5pl/mrpl/movespeed
1/8/21
I really wanted to try warwick (he hasnt been a free char since my total noob days) and used this setup for him. I went straight BR and then def items, we raped one game then lost another convincingly. Probably that wasnt very safe
On January 19 2011 10:44 TheYango wrote: How are XP quints on Warwick? I was watching Dan Dinh on stream the other day, and he said that he used them but didn't elaborate on why.
maybe to not have to put points on the utility tree? just guessing.
On January 19 2011 10:44 TheYango wrote: How are XP quints on Warwick? I was watching Dan Dinh on stream the other day, and he said that he used them but didn't elaborate on why.
maybe to not have to put points on the utility tree? just guessing.
He still did get Awareness, though. By that logic he would be running movespeed quints, as he went 21/0/9.
I've started going cloth armor, I decided yesterday I didn't really care how fast my first jungle clear is, I just wanted absolutely zero risk. I'm fine with just farm farm farm with the potential for a jungle invasion early game as ww.
I tweaked my runes a bit to get an extra 3% movespeed (2 quints) and found I need a minimum 19% AS on the page to survive killing golem with sword + pot 9/0/21 build.
Its a dangerous lvl 1 golem but I found the extra runspeed to help chasing down kills the whole game.
AS red, flat armour yellow, mregen/lvl blue, 1 AS quint 2 movespeed.
Jungling seems hella slow now (partly cause I used to have 26% AS) but its mainly the hungers not finishing off creeps like before. Will take some getting used to.
On January 19 2011 12:03 arnath wrote: Post patch, what sort of clear times for a normal jungle path (blue to small golems) are people getting?
Just tested two paths at summoner level 24, 1/2/21 build with APen, Flat Armor, Scaling MRes, Flat HP.
Blue -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems -> Red was 4:35 with lowest health at 25% during Blue with QWQE
Wraith Jack -> Wolves -> Blue -> Wraiths -> Red -> Golems was 5:05 with lowest health at 50% during Blue with WQQE
Both cases used Long Sword + HP Potion opening and Smite was used on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th camps. Obviously wraith jack is slower since you clear 6 camps, but it's safer as long as the wraith jack goes smoothly.
I tweaked my runes a bit to get an extra 3% movespeed (2 quints) and found I need a minimum 19% AS on the page to survive killing golem with sword + pot 9/0/21 build.
Its a dangerous lvl 1 golem but I found the extra runspeed to help chasing down kills the whole game.
AS red, flat armour yellow, mregen/lvl blue, 1 AS quint 2 movespeed.
Jungling seems hella slow now (partly cause I used to have 26% AS) but its mainly the hungers not finishing off creeps like before. Will take some getting used to.
Hmm weird, this wasn't consistant with my testing... managed to beat golem with 12%, but I did go very low (to about 50 hp or so). What's your exact setup?
Also, how do you guys feel about Atma's on Warwick as a last item?
Setup is in the post. Now that I think about it that may have been immediately after wraith jack, so smite was a bit late. Even so ive been going fairly low starting at golem (like down to 100). 12% is crap tbh what else u getting?
Better off with BC than atmas. Usually only end up with about 3k health in the end. By then ppl have insane armour/resists.
12% AS, flat armour yellows, mr/lvl blues, mspd quints, 9/0/21, sword + pot. Did it several, with sometimes ending up with a bit more hp due to lucking out on a crit. And normally, I do have full aspd reds, just removed some for this.
Edit: ok I remember trying with only 15% AS probably starting with wraiths and dying to golem. Sounds like you were lucky with q. In any case its still dangerous but with good map awareness u should be fine.
Went from Morgana to trying this guy out. Huge difference, and you need to be VERY map-aware. Liking the challenge, as Morgana is pretty ease. The guides on this guy basically tell me EVERYTHING I need to know about creeps and the jungle XP I've been so clueless as to what, when and why we should jungle or farm.
On January 22 2011 04:16 Mogwai wrote: Grackis would be pretty fucking forgettable if he weren't such a prick.
Very much agree with this. Any time I watch his stream (I don't know why I do it, but sometimes I hope to see a glimmer of skill there..), all I see is him blaming his team for either his mistakes, or for mistakes that were made by the whole team that he was a part of, ie. they're all standing in the brush near dragon, waiting for a fight, then it turns out the other team were doing baron (this happened today), so he just starts flaming them for how bad they are when he was making the same mistake.
Anyways, back on the subject of WW -
I'm having a little bit of trouble maintaining a good early-game presence on the map on my level 25 acc on the EU server. Is it likely that it's the lack of complete masteries and runes on a <30 account? Or is it more likely to be some fault in my play eg. map awareness, jungle routes, whatever? Or is it because I'm solo queuing normals?
Or is that question impossible to answer? lol.
I just feel like I can't really keep up with the solos and never really feel comfortable going for dragon. I can buy wards till I'm blue in the face (actually, WW is always blue in the face..), ping dragon and ask my team to come help, but it just never seems to work out.
Timing ganks without voice chat with random teams is pretty damned hard... Maybe that's the problem, not enough good communication...
On January 22 2011 19:42 Cedstick wrote: Went from Morgana to trying this guy out. Huge difference, and you need to be VERY map-aware. Liking the challenge, as Morgana is pretty ease. The guides on this guy basically tell me EVERYTHING I need to know about creeps and the jungle XP I've been so clueless as to what, when and why we should jungle or farm.
Glad you enjoy the guide. imo, junglers are the hardest role to play. You definitely need to have great map awareness to capitalize on ganks. A jungler that fails to gank successful is actually set back a lot.
On January 22 2011 04:16 Mogwai wrote: Grackis would be pretty fucking forgettable if he weren't such a prick.
Very much agree with this. Any time I watch his stream (I don't know why I do it, but sometimes I hope to see a glimmer of skill there..), all I see is him blaming his team for either his mistakes, or for mistakes that were made by the whole team that he was a part of, ie. they're all standing in the brush near dragon, waiting for a fight, then it turns out the other team were doing baron (this happened today), so he just starts flaming them for how bad they are when he was making the same mistake.
Anyways, back on the subject of WW -
I'm having a little bit of trouble maintaining a good early-game presence on the map on my level 25 acc on the EU server. Is it likely that it's the lack of complete masteries and runes on a <30 account? Or is it more likely to be some fault in my play eg. map awareness, jungle routes, whatever? Or is it because I'm solo queuing normals?
Or is that question impossible to answer? lol.
I just feel like I can't really keep up with the solos and never really feel comfortable going for dragon. I can buy wards till I'm blue in the face (actually, WW is always blue in the face..), ping dragon and ask my team to come help, but it just never seems to work out.
Timing ganks without voice chat with random teams is pretty damned hard... Maybe that's the problem, not enough good communication...
Hard to say, since it's situation specific. A few pointers though: - Focus on farming jungle monsters. Ganking is great but only do so when you feel like you can ensure a kill for your team. Doesn't have to be you that gets the kill. - Only time I would solo dragon is in a 5 man premade. I would never risk solo dragon in a solo q after the Dragon buff. If you want dragon, force a gank or at least a retreat from the enemy. Then ping to have your team collapse on dragon. Sometimes you might have to say "let's gank, then do dragon when they run away". Have a vision ward before you start and sight ward if you can, to see when enemies are trying to come back out. - 9 times out of 10, after you've successfully done dragon, fall back. Chances are, your team will be slightly lower on hp and definitely lower on mana than the enemy team. You've completed a good team objective, don't force your own hand.
Oh, and it's nearly impossible to match up with solo laners in levels. MR buff makes jungling noticeably slower this patch. It's better to compare your CS with the enemy jungler (whenever he shows himself, take a look at the tab screen) and compare your level with the bottom laners. Assuming you're successful with your ganks, you should be equal or higher level than the guys down at bot.
Is a full attack speed rune page meant to be optimal on warwick? and what path are you guys using now? after the MR buff i feel like if I start at golems its not actually that safe to do blue.
If you actually read the first post in this thread (or any other post), you would see that a) Neo keeps it pretty well updated b) It answers both of these questions
The OP doesn't really discuss those at all, it just states Neo's opinion. There's no real point to starting at blue since you can't rush dragon anymore and its not optimal for maxing exp/gold.
On January 25 2011 09:16 rob.au wrote: The OP doesn't really discuss those at all, it just states Neo's opinion. There's no real point to starting at blue since you can't rush dragon anymore and its not optimal for maxing exp/gold.
and asking us will suddenly tell you the truth and the only truth?
if you don't feel that starting at smallgols will let you do blue safely, then perhaps... that is why starting blue is good?
also, starting blue (assuming you don't get ganked after finishing it) assures that you stay at full health through the rest of the jungle. Also, it allows you flexibility in your ganking route (you can do wolves and then go straight to red if you want for a level 3 gank, etc. etc.) as well as allowing blue to be up again when you're around 6-7 and benefit even more from the cdr and mana regen (ult). the good thing about doing buffs early, as you might notice, is that they respawn earlier (which then gives you more flexibility in when you do those buffs / give them to your teammates).
also, i'd like to see the numbers on "maximizing exp and gold" if you have those with you it would be kind of interesting to see. it seems intuitive that doing blue first would be good for clear times because cdr and mana regen imba, but it'd be cool to know if there was another route for him.
Whatever works for you. I still start at blue and while its more dangerous than before its only for that first minute. The rest of the route is fine. Tbh you should be mixing up your route to be less predictable (i never do though ha)
Last night I went to solo baron at lvl 15 lol (yi caught up eventually). Man it took forever! That's with a BR and dps Yi. Fortunately the other team were busy with super minions. :p
I was asking if anyone had any input...so someone could come in and say "i start here because...", "i don't run attack speed runes because armor lets me do x"
Pen reds and quints (attack speed doesn't add as much damage as pen until you get bloodrazors, just more lifegain) MR blues MR yellows
Cloth Armor, 3 hp pots, 1 mana pot Start wraiths, wolves, drink an hp pot and the mana pot, blue, roll the rest of the jungle
I don't really care about my first clear speed with ww, just prefer to be 100% safe. if I see something silly going on this lets me invade jungle with total assurance
On January 25 2011 11:13 UniversalSnip wrote: the route I currently favor most
9/0/21
Pen reds and quints (attack speed doesn't add as much damage as pen until you get bloodrazors, just more lifegain) MR blues MR yellows
Cloth Armor, 3 hp pots, 1 mana pot Start wraiths, wolves, drink an hp pot and the mana pot, blue, roll the rest of the jungle
I don't really care about my first clear speed with ww, just prefer to be 100% safe. if I see something silly going on this lets me invade jungle with total assurance
It's not the first clear timing that's important [edit] (talking strictly about longsword vs cloth) [/edit], it's how long it takes you to get your razors. Start opening longsword + pot and learn map awareness. Looking silly when you get killed in the jungle is part of jungling. Embrace being embarrassed on streams.
On January 25 2011 09:16 rob.au wrote: The OP doesn't really discuss those at all, it just states Neo's opinion. There's no real point to starting at blue since you can't rush dragon anymore and its not optimal for maxing exp/gold.
wtf are you talking about you start at blue because having blue buff lets you get red buff at full hp the fastest so in case there's a gank open you can gank
it also clears the jungle the fastest and gets you razors the fastest
"rush dragon" was never viable against good players in the first place
and as for the first creep clear timing, with a full aspd vs full arpen marks quints and aspd yellows blues, aspd won over by about 2 seconds. the amount of health i had at blue and wraiths was pretty high with the arpen aspd runepage tho.
Ya but the reason you run full aspd isn't for your first clear, it's for your razor procs midgame and your bloodrazor %dmg per hit late game. I dunno, personal preference I guess.
Okay, I guess I was under the impression it was better to not start at blue because it took longer to get level 6 (never tested) and because level 4-5 ww gank isn't that strong.
I mean, I play a low-gank style of warwick, probably the lowest out of all the good warwick players in this entire game, but I still think it's absolutely crucial to get your red buff in case there is a gank open because without it your 4-5 gank isn't just not strong, it's nonexistent.
On January 25 2011 11:13 UniversalSnip wrote: the route I currently favor most
9/0/21
Pen reds and quints (attack speed doesn't add as much damage as pen until you get bloodrazors, just more lifegain) MR blues MR yellows
Cloth Armor, 3 hp pots, 1 mana pot Start wraiths, wolves, drink an hp pot and the mana pot, blue, roll the rest of the jungle
I don't really care about my first clear speed with ww, just prefer to be 100% safe. if I see something silly going on this lets me invade jungle with total assurance
With my runes I only get low at blue and finish red with well over half- 2/3rds health. I'm setup for ganking (AS + MS) which is far better throughout the game than shaving a few seconds off jungle or being a pansy 100% safe WW.
On January 25 2011 04:05 NeoIllusions wrote: Oh, and it's nearly impossible to match up with solo laners in levels. MR buff makes jungling noticeably slower this patch. It's better to compare your CS with the enemy jungler (whenever he shows himself, take a look at the tab screen) and compare your level with the bottom laners. Assuming you're successful with your ganks, you should be equal or higher level than the guys down at bot.
Thanks for the tips and advice man, I will definitely take it onboard. I think part of me is just foolishly expecting more communication from team-mates in a solo q game. Communication which can make, or break, a gank.
I've actually been playing jungle rammus for the last few games and it's given me a lot to think about when jungling with WW. Because you can move around the map so quick with Rammus, and clear it with relative ease, you have no option but to pay constant attention to the map (or else get bored standing still, or sitting in a lane stealing your solo's xp). Of course you should do this with every champion, whether you're jungling or not, but the contrast between being able to powerball across the map and having to leg it with WW, means that you have to be able to react a lot quicker; often preemptively, so that you can be near a lane that needs help, or near a gank oppourtunity, or whatever.
Not keen on starting at blue with WW these days. Maybe because I don't have a great rune setup yet, but I find myself getting a bit too low for comfort.
heart wouldnt be terrible on ww, but the mana is a bit wasted, and you could use hp from some source (tho it doesnt have to be omen)
hog is just nice since it is super cheap and omen is really easy to build in comparison to heart (1600 (ish) for shroud then 1400 to finish, vs 975 for hog and like 1350 (ish) for wardens and 600 combine cost
edit: @ neo, altho ww does have alot of ehp from lifesteal, he benefits a lot more from resistances at lower hp levels than a lot of other heroes do. that said, i do agree that he still does need quite a good bit of hp
The other thing is that the Randuin slow helps you stick to someone in a teamfight, particularly after you pass the point where you pass off red buff to your ranged carry.
Ult-> randuins is amazing for hitting bloodrazor procs on someone and it provides regen, a movespeed slow, and HP on top of the armor, cdr and the attackspeed slow.
I somehow died to golem at lvl 1. Either I got an unlucky crit or lagged missing a crucial hunger. Either way I'm starting with wraith jack> wolves> golem lol.
Anyone else getting ridiculous lag yesterday?
I got unlucky as their jungle shaco decided to start at wraiths too and smited before I could. Need a contingency for that too..
On January 30 2011 13:29 gtrsrs wrote: first of all what is the leash trick? second of all how does anyone die at blue as WARWICK? i usually don't even use my pot at blue...
Leash trick = a ranged champ makes the first auto-attack on golem before going to lane. Because of the way neutral minions now acquire targets, Golem will chase that target to the edge of it's leash range before tagging back to you (instead of regenerating all its HP and resetting)--this gives you basically a couple free autoattacks to build up Thirst stacks, plus a free Hungering Strike. The laner gets to lane a tiny bit later (before the minions even come close to killing one another), and takes basically no damage (a hit or two from the small lizards regens before they even get back to lane), while letting you finish Golem at noticeably higher HP than you otherwise would.
Dodge yellows are inferior to armor yellows on WW, but is it necessary to have armor yellows on ww to blue lvl 1 tho? 'Cause I also jungle with udyr and I like to run dodge yellows on him.
On January 30 2011 13:29 gtrsrs wrote: first of all what is the leash trick? second of all how does anyone die at blue as WARWICK? i usually don't even use my pot at blue...
What is ur build? I always drop down to 100 health doing lvl 1 golem. All it takes is a miss/dodge lag and miss a hunger etc to die.
ASpd/Armor/MReslvl/ASpd, 9/0/21, Cloth + some pots, start with Q and drink a pot. I barely lose any health at all (wait with your first Q until you took a hit to not waste the healing). No idea how it goes with Longsword.
On January 30 2011 13:29 gtrsrs wrote: first of all what is the leash trick? second of all how does anyone die at blue as WARWICK? i usually don't even use my pot at blue...
What is ur build? I always drop down to 100 health doing lvl 1 golem. All it takes is a miss/dodge lag and miss a hunger etc to die.
Armour yellows are essential now.
1 hp quint 2 ms quint mpen red ar/level yellow mr/level yellow
0/21/9 or 1/14/15 depending on their comp longsword + 1 pot first Q first
Well well, I must say this thread has been an interesting read. I have started playing only recently, but I have played more games as Warwick than any other character. Thus, I don't feel too bad giving advice, although I fully realize that some people here are way more knowledgable than I am.
To whomever was asking the setup for level 1 blue buff : I have ~60% HP with the following setup :
ArmPen Red AS Yellow AS Blue 2x MS Quint 1x HP Quint
11/0/19 - 2% CS, Improved Smite, Improved AS, Improved ArmPen And the usual stuff in the utility tree.
After reading this thread, I've come to realize that this might be suboptimal in higher ELO games, but it works just fine in normal games, and will get you through jungle like a breeze.
I've come to a realization on the timing of your bloodrazors. It's not so much dependent on the time of the game or the order of your build but rather at what point they start to focus your carry. Usually it's based off of his or her items. Ideally, with Warwick, you want them to be focusing you the whole time to let your team do their thing, suppress one guy with ult, and then die in a fight so your team can a ton of kills (if you can do that w/o dying it's better, derp), but there's that point in the game where suddenly they're like "WE NEED TO FOCUS CORKI" and at that point you should finish your bloodrazors immediately, because ironically, nobody will focus you down.
On January 31 2011 08:55 Khul Sadukar wrote: Ok I go longsword. Its fine if I dont lag but the servers have been shit the last 2 weeks.
Against smart teams wraith jack is also dangerous. I ran into a shaco who was starting there lol.
Try twin golems jack. If you want to jungle you have to be familiar with one champ, but if you want to counterjungle you have to be familiar with ALL of them. At least, with the common jungle paths of all the common junglers. There's always some element of risk when counterjungling, which is part of what makes it so exciting. But rarely will the enemy team be in a position to catch you at twingolems. Especially against junglers that start at blue. For extra fun, go enemy twingols -> enemy wraiths if you're fast enough. Just practice a lot and learn your limits.
On January 31 2011 08:55 Khul Sadukar wrote: Ok I go longsword. Its fine if I dont lag but the servers have been shit the last 2 weeks.
Against smart teams wraith jack is also dangerous. I ran into a shaco who was starting there lol.
Try twin golems jack. If you want to jungle you have to be familiar with one champ, but if you want to counterjungle you have to be familiar with ALL of them. At least, with the common jungle paths of all the common junglers. There's always some element of risk when counterjungling, which is part of what makes it so exciting. But rarely will the enemy team be in a position to catch you at twingolems. Especially against junglers that start at blue. For extra fun, go enemy twingols -> enemy wraiths if you're fast enough. Just practice a lot and learn your limits.
If Shaco is smiting the big wraith and doing Regi's route, he will probably have smallgols boxed--which could potentially lead to you getting caught (and if his team is listening to him, they will be probably be protecting the boxes at red/lizard).
On February 12 2011 06:20 ArC_man wrote: I'm pretty sure twin golems will have respawned by the time the enemy jungler reaches them (if he does the blue, wolves, wraiths, red, twin route).
Depending on the jungler, going blue->smallgol jack->gank at red is possible. And if you pull it off it absolutely wrecks them.
Ahhh, I was talking about starting at their twin golems, but your route sounds like an interesting strategy. Who do you think it would work best against? Also, do you hit level 3 from blue->twin golem (I think maybe you might have to kill the big wolf first)?
What about wraith jack into golem jack? That way the golems won't respawn as quick and wraiths as gone so his only choice is to go to your jungle or gank at level 2 without red buff?
I was thinking of like, opening shatter on taric and smal gol jack or wraith jack if you're blue but I haven't tested it yet. Even just getting small golems gets you to lane at level 2 before they are with shatter and dazzle. Might take too long without smite though, maybe have to open cloth+5 or boots +3 as well.
On February 12 2011 07:00 ArC_man wrote: Ahhh, I was talking about starting at their twin golems, but your route sounds like an interesting strategy. Who do you think it would work best against? Also, do you hit level 3 from blue->twin golem (I think maybe you might have to kill the big wolf first)?
I've seen Dan Dinh do it without doing the big wolf, but he also runs XP quints on Warwick, so you might need the big wolf if you're doing it without them.
On February 12 2011 08:44 Slayer91 wrote: What about wraith jack into golem jack? That way the golems won't respawn as quick and wraiths as gone so his only choice is to go to your jungle or gank at level 2 without red buff?
One of the advantages of a Wraith jack is that it's effective whether the enemy started at smallgols or at blue. With your idea, if they started at smallgols, they're gonna catch if you're your way to their smallgols, and they'll be a level up on you.
The other big thing wraithjack has going for it is how safe and fast it is. You still annoy them if you just smite the big one and run. Twingolem jack does slow the enemy jungler down a bit, but the bigger thing it does is lets you jungle longer before going b or switches up your gank timing somewhat. With olaf, for instance, sometimes I need to delay my gank until level 6 because I'll just get cc'd away from my target(s). I can hit 6 without going b, waiting around awkwardly for a very brief period of time. Plus at most points throughout my route I can take red and gank a sufficiently low-health lane (though I have to be careful, since I can't really show up with much more than half health). I'm not sure how much this applies to Warwick at this point, actually. Olaf is a much more efficient jungler when he can stay low health and he doesn't need blue buff very much (it makes wraiths way faster and wolves somewhat). That depends on how many points in Q you take, though, so yeah. the moral of the story is try a lot of different things because each jungler AND player is different also you don't want to listen to rugfeeder
MPen Marks and Quints Mp5pL Yellows MRes/Level Blues or Mp5pL or CDR or w/e, who cares really
QEQWQR -> R > Q > E = W
Flash Ignite
dring boots
usually you wanna follow up with
sorc shoes sunfire cape
but it's situational
you can build Spirit Visage, Void Staff, Abyssal, Banshee's Veil, Bloodrazor, Randuin's, Guardian Angel, Frozen Heart, Reverie as well. Other items are pretty noob. His AP scaling sucks, so stop thinking "herpdederp, I have dring and am specced like a caster, better get deathcap," that shit's real noob (or troll if you roll like that). He scales best with Armor/Mres, CDR and Magic Pen. Bloodrazor is cash because you usually have mad magic pen and all you need is your W to have bomb-ass attack speed, but it's real expensive, so don't rush it, just get it if your team sucks and you need sustained DPS. HP is also pretty noob, a little's ok, but don't be that jerkass who builds fucking warmogs, Q doesn't scale off your HP noob, better to make the most of the HP that gives you back with Armor/Mres.
win lanes by Qing your opponent. that's quite literally all you have to do. Q off CD? ok, then run up and Q them. when you hit 6, call for a gank and get a free kill. Repeat every time R is off CD and they're at like 75% HP from you Qing them (or higher if they're not a tank). Shit's so OP.
^that but HP or MS quints and 0/9/21, and i don't get W til 10 or 13. E in lane is fucking godmode, especially if their jungler gets low and you can smell them and you kill them while they're taking a buff l0l sunfire first 100% of time, i usually b at 1500 for giant's belt + boots + as many hp pots as that buys, then you don't b again til you're like 8-0 and you buy everything at once
On February 14 2011 11:07 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're going to twin + wraith jack you might as well just red jack, it's pretty much just as dangerous and the payoff is arguably bigger.
disagree. stealing red (1) won't get you to level 2. (2) is way harder. (3) if you steal red then they have two easy camps garen-teed to get exp off of (wraith and twin), but if you steal wraith and twin, they're denied that exp and won't be able to kill red either.
wtf, why take SoS instead of 15% MPen? that's so crazy to me with how insane his HP sustainability is. Quints are preference and I can respect w/e there, but I just don't see why you'd ever need SoS enough to justify passing up on a free 3% CDR and 15% MPen.
i get the 9 in defense for 6/6 armor/MR because i build him pure tank and i like to squeeze out every advantage and 6 armor/MR negates like 3-5 rune slots which i feel is a good trade. SoS just a nice bonus. although to be fair i get really scared i'm too squishy with 9/0/21 which might be a false fear since he's got so much regen. also sometimes i run 0/15/15 L0L
Why was he only temp banned? The guy deserves a lifetime ban from the internet. Also, lanewick will fall out of favor soon when people realize he's hard countered by an all-CDR Miss Fortune who rushes Executioner's Calling and runs 21 utility ignite.
I don't see why you would disagree with being one of the best lane staying champions.
Opposing champion would live in constant fear of being ulted once you are 6 and then being ganked by the actual jungler. Really different when compared to Jungle WW, where you expect the ult as soon as you see him come out of jungle at you.
My god, just played a WW yesterday who had no clue what he was doing and wouldn't do anything we suggested.
First, he insists on going top lane where there was already 2 allies, and leaves me (as shen) 1v2 bottom against Nid + Ashe. Then, he wanders through the jungle not killing any of the neutrals, and dies like twice to the opposing team after wandering to far into their territory. Then he continues to lane top during multiple teamfights, letting us all die then getting 4man ganked.
After he went 0-6-1, he said he "had to go" and left.
I get why warwick is a strong laner, but he has tons of flaws as well
Flaw 1) he's just going to get danced around vs anyone ranged DPS who starts boots. His zone of influence, while powerful, is minuscule. It's just going to end up being warwick freefarming vs a ranged DPS while exerting absolutely no pressure until level 6.
Flaw 2) he gets bottlenecked by mana easily. Mass mp5s and doran's ring isn't even enough to salvage this problem. It'll help him stave off poking but if you start ring and the enemy starts 5 pots you definitely won't be Qing him out of lane.
Flaw 3) He has big problems last-hitting at tower. Anyone with cheap pushing power will simply push up to his tower and leave it there. Warwick is going to mess up on so many last hits. He can use Q and W to salvage some last-hits but that's just going to exacerbate the mana problem.
Some very "smart" liquidpartiers yesterday claims that warwick would win vs vlad in lane, and I'm like.. how is that going to happen? Vlad's just going to start boots and dance around him farming it up until he gets to level 7 or 9, buy cdr boots and parts of his spirit visage and then just pressure WW into going oom or force him to get blue buff from jungler just so he doesn't lose his lane. Warwick doesn't have what it takes at all to abuse vlad's weak early game. He's not ezreal.
Heck, even versus Ashe. As long as ashe can farm an acceptable amount of gold, she's just going to buy a couple of Dblades, take blue buff, and then volley push your lane and then do whatever the hell she wants. Until warwick gets his sunfire cape he basically exerts no pushing power whatsoever, and that can easily be exploited.
WW shits on vlad in my experience. You get up in his face, if he Qs you, you Q him and before level 7 or 9, your Q hits like twice as hard, heals more and is on a shorter CD than vlad's. It's absolutely absurd to suggest that vlad's just gonna dance around with boots because my WW is just gonna be standing behind your ranged creeps waiting for to try to last hit and then I'm going to Q you. If you want to play it vs me, I'd be more than happy to demonstrate.
I dunno man, it will be a little painful but really not that bad compared to the really fucked up lanes that vlad can get. Like, I get that there are some last hits I won't be able to get, and I'm willing to concede those, but if you just stand behind my ranged minions I have nothing to do anyways so I'm going to start poking at you with E + Q + autoattacks until you back off and heal off creeps =/
I'm definitely willing to play this lane out vs you though, see how it goes. If warwick was a manaless hero, I'd say he wins this lane hands down... but he does have to manage his mana so :X
If you time it correctly, during the delay after Vlad's autoattack animation, WW can sneak a Q in before he can back off. It's harder to do if he animation cancels correctly, but I've managed to do it pretty consistently.
Between dring, utility talents and mp5plvl seals, I haven't noticed an extreme lack of mana. It certainly it is a problem especially around 6 when you want to gank, but as long as you don't spend W recklessly before then. And don't Q on CD (just do it enough early times levels to scare the shit out of the other dude).
Although I do buy myself two mana pots on my first trip back...which does not happen till 7 usually...
My ww spec is 20mp5 at level 1, which is plenty in a normal setting. However, if your goal is to zone them out completely then it only works if they're playing dumb and being scared of you and letting you win your lane through sporadic Q's.
However, if you meet some dickhead who brings to lane several potions and is actively trying to bottleneck your mana early on by chugging the potions early then you might be in trouble. Laning becomes way harder because once you run oom because the cooldown on your Q effectively becomes ~15 seconds because that's how long it takes for you to regen that amount of mana from scratch.
I probably don't respect warwick as much as I should, but I just don't see how he can get around so many of his problems.
On May 19 2011 14:58 zulu_nation8 wrote: flash better than ghost, thoughts?
Flash is always better. If you need the speed, Blood Scent is often available. Flash is better for ganks out of the jungle and offers more ways to escape. Ghost is redundant
I completely disagree with flash ignite, even though you don't need smite to finish your route at any point, warwick is a control jungler and really lacks in that area (buff steals, dragon fights, barons) without smite.
I still think he's solid enough to warrant a pick over both of those champs simply because his mid lane ganks are so strong with any sort of targeted stun. Obviously he's not as good at certain things as Xin or Nocturne but I still don't necessarily think he's "worse".
Probably because I just won a bunch of ranked games with him oldschool style but yeah .
Xin and Nocturne have better anti-carry base damage and damage scaling and gank way harder without their ults (and Noct's ult gank is at least as strong as WW's IMO). *shrugs* just don't like WW unless I get to boss around a bruiser/tank in lane with my Q.
On May 20 2011 00:24 Mogwai wrote: flash ignite. if I wanted to jungle at high hp, I'd pick Nocturne or Xin.
lanewick with double philostone is HILARIOUS btw. He makes hextech Vlad's sustainability look like a joke.
I'm in love with chalice on WW vs any kind of AP lane. Never oom = never out of health anyway. Why would you get philos if for WW the bottleneck is almost always his mana, but never his health? (Yeah, I know, you luv dem philos. =P)
On Oddones WW guide: I think he fucked up his runes by accident.
Oddone usually wants 24 ArPen total since that is how much you need to do full damage to buffs and have the strongest possible game after early jungling cause you do nice damage to champs.
His WW setup (including masteries) shows 26 ArPen for some reason. Also WW needs less than a full armor page to get full sustainability which means full Armor Yellows bad imho.
The setup I'm using which I'd say is a little better (wtb input from 5H1T on this one prolly):
Obviously the last Quint can be anything besides Movespeed too, I just find it the best choice for that slot on WW.
To compare direclty: Oddone runs 20 ArPen / 11% AS / 13 Armor
In regard to TheOddOne's WW guide: I just don't agree with his masteries and Ghost as summoner. The reasoning for both doesn't seem to make sense to me at all. Also AS-glyphs are horrible IMO.
TOO plays differently, unless you're trying to imitate his playstyle you're not gonna get why he does what he does. For example:
On June 08 2011 00:07 r.Evo wrote:WW needs less than a full armor page to get full sustainability
He doesn't give a shit about "full sustainability" nor does he care about pure speed (in which you'd just run ~18arp ~18% aspd or some similar variation).
I think I just did mass flat AD runes, a sliver of armor pen, with some other stuff thrown in there, since his ulti scales somewhat with flat AD but does magic damage. Oh and 21/0/9 masteries.
On May 20 2011 00:24 Mogwai wrote: flash ignite. if I wanted to jungle at high hp, I'd pick Nocturne or Xin.
lanewick with double philostone is HILARIOUS btw. He makes hextech Vlad's sustainability look like a joke.
I'm in love with chalice on WW vs any kind of AP lane. Never oom = never out of health anyway. Why would you get philos if for WW the bottleneck is almost always his mana, but never his health? (Yeah, I know, you luv dem philos. =P)
because chalice without base mana regen doesn't do much. Also gold/10.
On June 08 2011 01:24 Southlight wrote: TOO plays differently, unless you're trying to imitate his playstyle you're not gonna get why he does what he does. For example:
On June 08 2011 00:07 r.Evo wrote:WW needs less than a full armor page to get full sustainability
He doesn't give a shit about "full sustainability" nor does he care about pure speed (in which you'd just run ~18arp ~18% aspd or some similar variation).
I'd consider myself a fanboy and 98% of his stuff makes perfect sense and is very easily emulated if you simply listen to some of his explainations. However e.g. the full armor page means he a) Wants max flat armor vs champs- b) Doesn't care that he doesn't even need full armor page on ww and just rolls with it 'cause he's used to it.
Same with the 26 total ArPen over his normal 24. Imho he just doesn't care about small stuff like that/forgot that he has 16 in offense. A lot of his videos have small mistakes like that in them (like perseverance over good hands for example).
However, you also could enlighten us on what exactly he does differently.
Unless you know all the counterjungle timings and shit like he does and put them to use in every game as often as possible, generally you're not playing to exactly what he is intending. It's extremely evident with what I've heard to be his Noc jungle build in which he runs the opposite of what most people advocate (heavy offense), instead running 21 util because it's more disruptive to opponents, early jungling speed be damned. The vast, vast majority of junglers even uptoward to my current rating level are dreadful at jungling and have no idea how to counterjungle, instead just "winging it" and thus are much better served running standard speed/sustain builds, hence where the difference in rune/mastery/etc. begins to arise.
Edit: TL;DR different types of jungling paths and jungle encounters favor different types of rune/mastery setups, Turkey who's a much better jungler than I runs a bizarre AD MSPD ArP quints setup and I have no clue why he's settled on it (on all his junglers!) for instance.
On June 08 2011 02:24 Mogwai wrote: and I do bread and butter speed builds on pretty much every jungler.
And it works perfectly fine!
Edit On a slightly more amusing discovery and helpful note, with 18Arp 18%aspd (I'm sure similar runesets work) and 21/0/9 (x/x/21 works too) you can open Cloth x5pots and open on their Lizard without using Smite, smite blue wraith and kill 3 little wraiths, and sit at wraith bush for their jungler to walk in and you'd be at full hp. A good majority of junglers end up relatively weak on this transition so you can catch them and send them home and jostle them out of rhythm. We tested vs Olaf and it kills Olaf if he tries to stand and fight, even at level 2. Was pretty close even if Olaf takes Exhaust, which is pretty amazing.
On June 08 2011 02:24 Mogwai wrote: and I do bread and butter speed builds on pretty much every jungler.
And it works perfectly fine!
Edit On a slightly more amusing discovery and helpful note, with 18Arp 18%aspd (I'm sure similar runesets work) and 21/0/9 (x/x/21 works too) you can open Cloth x5pots and open on their Lizard without using Smite, smite blue wraith and kill 3 little wraiths, and sit at wraith bush for their jungler to walk in and you'd be at full hp. A good majority of junglers end up relatively weak on this transition so you can catch them and send them home and jostle them out of rhythm. We tested vs Olaf and it kills Olaf if he tries to stand and fight, even at level 2. Was pretty close even if Olaf takes Exhaust, which is pretty amazing.
I don't see why you wouldn't use your smite on the red in this case. If you're waiting for them and fucking with them, it's not like the smite timing is incredibly important, so why not maximize HP by smiting red? Also, I would try that with xin tbh, xin's level 2 is so crazy.
On June 08 2011 02:15 Southlight wrote: Unless you know all the counterjungle timings and shit like he does and put them to use in every game as often as possible, generally you're not playing to exactly what he is intending. It's extremely evident with what I've heard to be his Noc jungle build in which he runs the opposite of what most people advocate (heavy offense), instead running 21 util because it's more disruptive to opponents, early jungling speed be damned. The vast, vast majority of junglers even uptoward to my current rating level are dreadful at jungling and have no idea how to counterjungle, instead just "winging it" and thus are much better served running standard speed/sustain builds, hence where the difference in rune/mastery/etc. begins to arise.
Edit: TL;DR different types of jungling paths and jungle encounters favor different types of rune/mastery setups, Turkey who's a much better jungler than I runs a bizarre AD MSPD ArP quints setup and I have no clue why he's settled on it (on all his junglers!) for instance.
Personally I don't really believe in "every thing is viable just the same" in games like this. By different setups (e.g. Oddones 21 util vs Gizmos speedbuild) you shift the time during which you're strongest to the level you are most comfortable with. I'm pretty sure the approach of "I get max utility on every jungle possible" AND the approach "I get max jungle speed on every jungle possible" is both not optimal in every scenario.
Ideal case I'd like to know when which approach is better because of which variables (teamcomps mostly, sometimes people you know in the enemy team.)
On June 08 2011 02:24 Mogwai wrote: and I do bread and butter speed builds on pretty much every jungler.
And it works perfectly fine!
Edit On a slightly more amusing discovery and helpful note, with 18Arp 18%aspd (I'm sure similar runesets work) and 21/0/9 (x/x/21 works too) you can open Cloth x5pots and open on their Lizard without using Smite, smite blue wraith and kill 3 little wraiths, and sit at wraith bush for their jungler to walk in and you'd be at full hp. A good majority of junglers end up relatively weak on this transition so you can catch them and send them home and jostle them out of rhythm. We tested vs Olaf and it kills Olaf if he tries to stand and fight, even at level 2. Was pretty close even if Olaf takes Exhaust, which is pretty amazing.
I don't see why you wouldn't use your smite on the red in this case. If you're waiting for them and fucking with them, it's not like the smite timing is incredibly important, so why not maximize HP by smiting red? Also, I would try that with xin tbh, xin's level 2 is so crazy.
Cuz I can smite Blue Wraith and chop down the lil' wraiths if I don't smite the Liz, end up ~100% by the time Olaf roll around. You'd have to adjust timing for different junglers obv. but yeah, that's my reasoning for not smiting Liz. Unfort. clearing Liz doesn't bring you to level 2 :[
I tried it with Olaf but he loses way too much HP on Liz, Xin might be able to do it? Not sure, didn't bother trying but it's worth a shot... too bad I hate playing Xin.
How come you don't smite the blue wraith before starting liz? Is it just too easy to spot? Or is it just precaution to have a smite ready for liz "just in case"?
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/JWI87.jpg)
way to go, allways hate when someone trash talks me, and I end up carrying their asses
You just don't agree with skipping BR (and recently he isn't skipping it that much as well)
.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3xC8i.jpg)
