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Community Feedback Update - August 28 - Page 11
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
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pr0n3d91
18 Posts
This is it. This is the last nail in the coffin. Not even starbow can redeem this. Time to go to ICCUP... This is the Legacy! | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On August 29 2015 11:19 Tiaraju9 wrote: I'm failing to understand how the new chronoboost will be easier to use. Good protoss players will be switching the building being chronoboosted so much as they do now after a few minutes into the game. Okay...but then think about the bad players. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Like... did they think... losing MULE... would not be... a big hit? ...What? It was always going to be a big hit. The question was always "how will you change the rest of the race to make up for that" once the dust settles? This makes it sound like they thought they wouldn't need to really make any big changes, the game would somehow balance itself out... while Protoss and Zerg got a slew of buffs... and Terran lost MULE. I mean I'm just not sure how to even respond to this. I don't like being incessantly negative and cynical, but I don't know how to read this other than "a gross and total misunderstanding of what role the different macro mechanics actually play in this game." I actually prefer autocast macro to no macro, it strikes a neat balance for pros vs new players, I'm just so flabbergasted by the first thing that I can't even focus on the other stuff. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19400 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On August 29 2015 11:19 Tiaraju9 wrote: I'm failing to understand how the new chronoboost will be easier to use. Good protoss players will be switching the building being chronoboosted so much as they do now after a few minutes into the game. It doesn't make it easier in the early game, but CB was never really hard to begin with. I've never seen a noob cry about CB's mechanical difficulty, because normally you can just place the CB in the middle of something with little risk of overlap. In the late game it will be easier to just fire and forget on the critical tech buildings like Stargate and Robo. It will be interesting to see if this perma-CB helps alleviate the Robo squeeze Protoss tend to feel all the time and I wonder how PvP will fare now that you can't stack CBs for explosive timings. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
The reason they removed the mechanics, is not the same reason they are adding them back in and that is what is annoying. The mechanics were not only unbalanced, they were not fun to use, and not fun to play against, and not fun to watch. Creep spreading was/is interesting, and needed to remain. It is a good dynamic, spreading it, vs. clearing it, vs. fighting on it. However inject was tedious and if that is what separates the good zergs from the bad, I certainly have to ask there must be a better way. It was hard for new players, and really just not fun on any level and even in late games even though it got more forgiving as a game went on was still important. Chrono is just a bit silly, and meant that anytime they wanted to balance protoss they always had to account for the timings that COULD exist if someone put all their effort into chrono one thing. So we ended up with really long research times for the most common things in the game, and really that makes no sense. Why put something in the game, that speeds something up, only to always make whatever is being most sped up take longer? At that point just remove it. In regards to mules, they were the most forgiving mechanic that led to just constant nerfs for mineral based Terran compositions. It has made the game for Terran so bio heavy and again hard to balance because you always had to account for mass mules, throwing away scvs late game for more mules, and to top it off the mechanic wasn't even impressive to watch or use because if you forgot to use it you could always just dump all your energy into mules and "catch" back up. With these issues, how could Blizzard had helped the problem? Well I saw two real solutions, if you were keeping the current mechanics(pre this patch) just go auto inject for the zerg and have it be 1 less larva. If that hurt pros a bit that didn't miss injects in early game, it would end up helping late game to balance it out because everyone misses injects even the best. Then they could have just left everything else as it is, or even just removed chrono only, balanced build times, and maybe given Toss something else interesting. The other option could have been to just remove all of them, make the queens a defensive/creep spreading unit only and maybe add another ability(I saw a speed boost idea that I thought would be neat, for off creep). Make hatches spawn up to 5 larva and no more inject. From there just take the time to actually get Terran in line, showing some love to bio(cheaper upgrades, maybe some cheaper buildings) and make CC/PF cheaper and allow scvs to be built while upgrading. That would have worked too. But now instead of removing them, or fixing them in the current form and dealing with the main issue which were the annoying injects, they now have them back in the game, in a half assed way, that is automatic? What the hell is that? So now all 3 races have 3 bad mechanics that will happen automatically? Is that really the only way they can balance things? And even at that it isn't going to be balanced anyway and going to take time to tweak. It was like Blizzard couldn't grow a pair and either put the mechanics in or make people unhappy by taking them out and are trying this middle of the road approach that is totally lame. "Well you can sorta get mules but they will be automatic but they won't return as many minerals but you can only have one mule but your mule will drop for you so now you don't have to drop the mule yourself but you can get your minerals!" Lame. "No chrono will just speed up one building all the time whenever you want you just have to set it and forget it!" Lame. So yeah, they set out to make the game simpler, easier to understand for new players, and allow higher level players more time to micro, but instead we got this solution which seems worse than what was there before and what is there now. I hope that they come to their senses and see that adding 3 automatic mechanics doesn't make the game harder, nor more interesting, and if it doesn't do either of those why have it? | ||
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QSpec
United States23 Posts
I think this is a rather elegant (all things considered) solution to the issues brought on by the removal of the original macro mechanics. First, they don't have to balance Terran's loss of minerals any more (at least as drastically). Second, MULES cast range stops the late game, counter-intutive worker sac (at least some what). Third, it speeds the game back up (a common complaint). Fourth, Toss's chrono is fucking beautiful now. It really rewards some good foresight while losing a lot of it's "comeback mechanic" edge. I promise, as is, you'll see some great builds come out of this for good players, and it will remain quietly relevant all game for those that want to min/max it. I say the complaints need to stop for a while, and the testing needs to happen. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
It will absolutely hellish to use this new version optimally, and in the late game it will arguably require even more attention than the old version so that it's always on something that's producing. With this change protoss will have the hardest macro by far. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
The primary goal of LOTV should be making sure that base capturing / defense / trading units is a more effective long term strategy than timing attacks. It's essentially a capture the flag game. Mules, chrono and inject destabilize the economy / unit production. Resource and production rates heavily favor different races at specific timings, it makes trading a dangerous gamble. One player cuts a few svc's/probes/drones to be aggressive and then there's a very short window of opportunity before the person expanding economy / unit production explodes massively beyond the aggressors. They will quickly be overwhelmed by numbers if they don't win or reset the game in that window. The choice becomes gambling on a 2-minute window for aggression or waiting for the late game where the economy / unit production is more predictable and stable. Games become heavily in favor of late game macro 200 supply armies and timing attacks exploiting race-specific deficiencies against rapid macro-advantages, like 200 supply roaches in 12 minutes. | ||
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SnowfaLL
Canada730 Posts
Finally, the game might be going in the right direction again. I was actually considering quitting 100% or switching to zerg if these removal of macro changes were final. It's just frustrating that since other races are the main whiners, protoss keeps getting the short end of the stick in every patch. This game shouldnt be broodwar, it should be SC2. And without macro mechanics, even if they are autocast (lame but whatever I get their point) - it just becomes a cheap broodwar imitation where zerg units are actually strong instead of weak, with 6 larva per hatch. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 29 2015 13:43 SnowfaLL wrote: I'm so glad they brought back mules and chronoboost - The game needs those two things to keep up with zerg, or else you end up with a crappy zerg dominant patch like we just had. Chronoboost is so important to protoss tech switching because without it, you can't adjust to zergs crazy macro. If you are in robo tech and you see a mass muta switch, good luck building a twilight + blink in a reasonable time to be able to defend it without chronoboost. It forces you to pre-emptively climb both tech trees before your 3rd expo is stabilized and vs any good zerg, (GM) you cant get away with that without being run over. Finally, the game might be going in the right direction again. I was actually considering quitting 100% or switching to zerg if these removal of macro changes were final. It's just frustrating that since other races are the main whiners, protoss keeps getting the short end of the stick in every patch. This game shouldnt be broodwar, it should be SC2. And without macro mechanics, even if they are autocast (lame but whatever I get their point) - it just becomes a cheap broodwar imitation where zerg units are actually strong instead of weak, with 6 larva per hatch. it would have been totally fine if they removed inject completely and put a larva cap on hatcheries, would be on par with other races | ||
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xtorn
4067 Posts
On August 29 2015 04:34 Eternal Dalek wrote: The vast majority of players ARE gold leaguers and intermittent players. You cannot build a game for the elite 1% alone. You cannot have a successful game that only casters to Masters and Grandmasters while leaving everyone below the best of the best frustrated and unsatisfied. I think you're forgetting that TL.net is made up of better-than-average players as well as actual progamers, outliers who are alright with the status quo. TL.net posters are the minority. A well-informed, highly-skilled minority, but a minority nevertheless. Making the game easier will not suddenly make gold scrubs like Eternal Dalek win games against players like you. You will still kick my ass 99% of the time, but the game will be much less frustrating for lesser-skilled players like me. Basically, you'll have much more people to play with if the game is much more accessible. Also, what they're really lowering is the skill floor, not the skill ceiling. The skill ceiling remains impossibly high. The skill floor is now much lower. This means that more people can play and enjoy the game, but the best of the best remains in their unassailable fortress of skill. I know a lot of people here confuse the skill floor with the skill ceiling; most of the time, when people say that Blizzard/Valve/Riot/whatever is dumbing down Starcraft/DotA/LoL and lowering the skill ceiling, what they really mean is that the skill floor is being lowered and the game is more accessible. Very well said | ||
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Ozmodeus
United States24 Posts
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gh0st
United States98 Posts
I have a substantive question/comment: suppose MULE is set to autocast by default and they increase the energy cost of scan (and supply drop but if MULES are back, who cares amirite). Does that then mean my OC will never bank enough energy to scan unless I turn off autocast (because the game will automatically spend the energy calling down a MULE). If so, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of automation? I still would have to babysit 1-2 orbitals to even access scan... And it's not like I'm always going to scan when I could, so the rest of the time I'm manually dropping MULES? I suppose I can have the OCs set to manual at critical scout times (early game?) when it's not too difficult to MULE consistently (been doin it for years) and set it to autocast once we get into the mid game? We can also set aside one OC to bank scan energy and drop MULES if we feel safe. I guess that works ok too. Balance concerns aside, I just really hope this middle ground doesn't speed up the game too much, because I was enjoying the scrappy low Econ games. It felt like I was able to do more with my units and not be so worried I was behind economically. | ||
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MoonFan
Vietnam55 Posts
, gh0st So yeah, no more banking energy for MULE/CB | ||
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gh0st
United States98 Posts
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