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SoCal8910 Posts
Hi everyone, I haven't posted on vanilla TL in a while because I've been busy with DOTA, but LotV has renewed my interest in starcraft 2. i've always been a high diamond player and ZvZ has definitely been my worst matchup. That said, I would usually just +1 roach timing attack and hope to kill them just to get it over with because I hate it. Sometimes you would deal critical damage and the game would continue simply because your last rally wasn't good or you weren't timely enough with an inject.
When this happens, I find that lurkers are REALLY good especially with 9 range coming standard. Even if this doesn't happen and I bane-ling and play macro, I just get demolished whenever the lurkers come out.
How do you zergs deal with lurkers? Do you just play 2 base muta then secure a 3rd while you contain the lurker player and snipe the hydras whenever possible? I'm not opposed to that style, but I find it hard to deal game ending damage because of how good spore crawlers are at killing mutas.
Help!
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So far it seems like you really have to stay on top of your opponents Lurker transition and you need to have your own ready to go in response, whoever gets Lurkers on the field first is going to have a massive advantage considering they absolutely butcher most ground units. Even at the expense of forgoing upgrades (I tried going 2/2 and then Lurker but my opponent will always have like 8 more Lurkers then me and the upgrades don't mean shit against them)
I could see the anti armored damage being toned down a bit in the future but for now or at least Spores getting reverted, at the moment Mutalisks feel weak, the combined upgrades at the Hydralisk Den immediately makes your Hydras able to deflect fast Mutalisk builds and obviously the impending Lurker transition is murder.
Play the Lurker wars sir, they are way more micro heavy and skill heavy then old school Roach wars by 8X over, enjoy that our mirror match up is now almost 100% micro/macro based with the super economy making early game build order losses more forgiving.
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Lurkers in ZvZ are basicaly the Siege tank in TvT. Lurkers come in play in late ZvZ tho, but eventualy both players will need them, and then it becomes positional play. I don't find it boring like tanks tho. Once you're in a better position you tech into broods and finish the game
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ZvZ is all about the hydra, lurker viper comp. Really the best way to break a zerg who goes lurkers is to go vipers (around 5-6 maybe more if they go BL) and just start abducting all of the opponents lurkers. Your entire goal at that point is to really keep your army mobile, secure the chokes and start expanding like crazy so that you always have a 200/200 army.
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Does blinding cloud work on Lurkers? I want to try it lol
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 06 2015 03:43 Energizer wrote:
ZvZ is all about the hydra, lurker viper comp. Really the best way to break a zerg who goes lurkers is to go vipers (around 5-6 maybe more if they go BL) and just start abducting all of the opponents lurkers. Your entire goal at that point is to really keep your army mobile, secure the chokes and start expanding like crazy so that you always have a 200/200 army.
do roaches go by the way side when your opponent starts getting a lot of lurkers? hydra + lurker is sooooo gas heavy and you cant really spend minerals on lings bc they get shredded. you cant even spend them on spines bc lurkers out range them. i guess you mass queens and make sure your creep spread covers you from base to base and save energy for transfuse?
or if you're going the viper route, dump them into evo chambers to gather energy for them?
they just seem really strong and make zvz pretty one dimensional IMO bc mutas don't feel strong enough to do enough work. i guess they should be enough to stop the third base while you take yours, but then ultimately you're behind because you're not getting lurkers or upgrading your ranged ground units lol
by that regard, perhaps you're just better off with an air army and just containing them?
On August 06 2015 04:08 jpg06051992 wrote:
Does blinding cloud work on Lurkers? I want to try it lol
it should but i dont know for 100% sure. it would make vipers that much stronger
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Yes, the mutalisk opening is a good way to prevent lurkers before they happen.
If you don't want to do that, early lurker play (e.g. of 2bases) is very risky and can be punished with nydus play. Nyuds punishes nearly everything techheavy - mutalisks, lurkers or anything else weird like infestors or swarm hosts; the only way to shut down a nydus in LotV ZvZ is to instantly bust it with banelings before the first queen, which should be the first unit to leave the nydus, can heal it.
Besides mutas and 2base allining it is usually best to stay on roaches and maybe some ravagers until you have droned up your third. Then you want to make your own lurkers.
The best ways to deal with a lurker stalemate - which I think are always going to happen for some time if noone fucks up - are Vipers and Broodlords. Mass ultralisk as well as any other mass ground tech dies to masses of lurkers. But blinding cloud is pretty good and obviously Broodlords just force their way through and are the easiest solution, though I think in the longrun Vipers combined with your own lurkers will prove to be the better one.
Though I had some success with heavy drop play as well. A lurker player often has a hard time protecting the back of his bases against all sorts of ling, roach or baneling drops.
One playstyle that I have encountered and that I think has some potential too is melee/lurker. The idea is early 1-1 for your zerglings and then rush into lurkers. I think the main problem with this style is to hold 2basish (there can be a low droned third as well) roach pushes. The advantage you later on have is that you have a pure mineraldump in the form of zerglings and and you have mapcontrol, which allows you to get superior lurker numbers or just higher tech as well as more bases.
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On August 06 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:43 Energizer wrote:
ZvZ is all about the hydra, lurker viper comp. Really the best way to break a zerg who goes lurkers is to go vipers (around 5-6 maybe more if they go BL) and just start abducting all of the opponents lurkers. Your entire goal at that point is to really keep your army mobile, secure the chokes and start expanding like crazy so that you always have a 200/200 army. do roaches go by the way side when your opponent starts getting a lot of lurkers? hydra + lurker is sooooo gas heavy and you cant really spend minerals on lings bc they get shredded. you cant even spend them on spines bc lurkers out range them. i guess you mass queens and make sure your creep spread covers you from base to base and save energy for transfuse? or if you're going the viper route, dump them into evo chambers to gather energy for them? they just seem really strong and make zvz pretty one dimensional IMO bc mutas don't feel strong enough to do enough work. i guess they should be enough to stop the third base while you take yours, but then ultimately you're behind because you're not getting lurkers or upgrading your ranged ground units lol by that regard, perhaps you're just better off with an air army and just containing them?
You cant go straight into lurkers, that isn't doable. You're left with either going into muta, or going into a +1 roach timing and then follow it up into hydra/lurker. Although if you are doing a muta opener and your opponent isn't, I guess you may as well rush to ultra and try to break the opponent before they get a good lurker count. In small lurker numbers, ultras reign supreme.
When it comes to roaches, the main goal of them is to buy time, just like in hots you need to be able to read your opponent to determine when to transition. Although for me I personally follow up my +1 with a straight tech into vipers, allowing me to counter my opponents muta ball or lurker, then once I have my vipers I make my own lurkers as I slowly sack my roaches, trying to trade them for a 4th or my opponents lurker force.
I feel that once people start catching on we'll be back to roach vs roach in no time since teching straight to vipers causes you to have a much smaller roach force, and yet vipers is the best counter to lurker you can get. I could see very aggressive zvz's throughout the midgame because of it.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 06 2015 06:24 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 06 2015 03:43 Energizer wrote:
ZvZ is all about the hydra, lurker viper comp. Really the best way to break a zerg who goes lurkers is to go vipers (around 5-6 maybe more if they go BL) and just start abducting all of the opponents lurkers. Your entire goal at that point is to really keep your army mobile, secure the chokes and start expanding like crazy so that you always have a 200/200 army. do roaches go by the way side when your opponent starts getting a lot of lurkers? hydra + lurker is sooooo gas heavy and you cant really spend minerals on lings bc they get shredded. you cant even spend them on spines bc lurkers out range them. i guess you mass queens and make sure your creep spread covers you from base to base and save energy for transfuse? or if you're going the viper route, dump them into evo chambers to gather energy for them? they just seem really strong and make zvz pretty one dimensional IMO bc mutas don't feel strong enough to do enough work. i guess they should be enough to stop the third base while you take yours, but then ultimately you're behind because you're not getting lurkers or upgrading your ranged ground units lol by that regard, perhaps you're just better off with an air army and just containing them? You cant go straight into lurkers, that isn't doable. You're left with either going into muta, or going into a +1 roach timing and then follow it up into hydra/lurker. Although if you are doing a muta opener and your opponent isn't, I guess you may as well rush to ultra and try to break the opponent before they get a good lurker count. In small lurker numbers, ultras reign supreme. When it comes to roaches, the main goal of them is to buy time, just like in hots you need to be able to read your opponent to determine when to transition. Although for me I personally follow up my +1 with a straight tech into vipers, allowing me to counter my opponents muta ball or lurker, then once I have my vipers I make my own lurkers as I slowly sack my roaches, trying to trade them for a 4th or my opponents lurker force. I feel that once people start catching on we'll be back to roach vs roach in no time since teching straight to vipers causes you to have a much smaller roach force, and yet vipers is the best counter to lurker you can get. I could see very aggressive zvz's throughout the midgame because of it.
yeah im just playing as aggressive as possible because i dont wanna deal with the lurkers later on. honestly, i think mutas are currently the best answer. you can't really deal with mutas by making hydras and if youre 2 basing them and your opponent is taking a third, you can snipe it. if they go hydras, that's less than ideal to deal with mutas, and you can tech to broodlords/vipers while your opponent is starving and you're expanding.
i just hate that they're naturally 9 range, i feel like that's a little ridiculous even in the other matchups
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Out of curiosity --
On August 06 2015 02:33 xTJx wrote:
Lurkers in ZvZ are basicaly the Siege tank in TvT. Lurkers come in play in late ZvZ tho, but eventualy both players will need them, and then it becomes positional play.
Is this an assessment that others in this thread agree with?
Do Lurkers have the potential to make ZvZ as mechanically demanding and positional a MU as TvT?
I haven't seen any ZvZs so I have absolutely no idea.
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idk man. but mass roaches doesnt seem to be affected by lurkers
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you won't have lurkers in time to defend a 2 base roach push, but after getting 6+ of them with roach cover, everything on the ground just dies. As i said it's a late game unit. You need at least 3 bases, 4 optimal to produce a roach hydra lurker army. So it's not like every ZvZ will be Lurker vs Lurker now.
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On August 06 2015 10:16 pure.Wasted wrote:Out of curiosity -- Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 02:33 xTJx wrote:
Lurkers in ZvZ are basicaly the Siege tank in TvT. Lurkers come in play in late ZvZ tho, but eventualy both players will need them, and then it becomes positional play. Is this an assessment that others in this thread agree with? Do Lurkers have the potential to make ZvZ as mechanically demanding and positional a MU as TvT? I haven't seen any ZvZs so I have absolutely no idea.
Let's just say that Lurkers are very strong in the MU and will sure see some plays.
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Lurkers? I don't see how zvz gets past the early game atm, it's so cheesy early game since the first overlord arrives so late it's very hard to scout
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SoCal8910 Posts
you're not wrong about the late scout
however its not 'cheesy' .. if someone is going ling/bane and you're going hatch first (like every zerg seems to want to do despite knowing that ling/bane comes out faster/harder) just like in the other iterations of the game you're going to have to do some fancy micro to get out unscathed.
that said, there is a lot of 2 base all-in'ing going on and i think the reduction of larva being produced by queens in the upcoming patch will help out with alleviating that.
however if your 2 base all in is not successful at completely killing your opponent, that is when i most often see other zergs going for lurkers.
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I've just been opening hots style, 15h 17g16p or you do what fenner does and open 14/14 into pressure or macro or all in. It's really not so bad.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Yeah that 16/15 opening with the extractor trick is imo the best way to avoid the mid-late game nonsense. Everyone opens up hatch first so I've been dodging lurkers that way.
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Just learn transitioning man. Lots of shit that counters lurkers when you play zerg, just not a-moved armies.
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EPT
