In case you missed the RedBull Archon mode qualifier go watch the Twitch recodrings here. There were some great games and Alicia + Crank showed how strong Protoss can be in the Beta.
A big factor were their usage of the Adept, it's a vital extension to the gateway arsenal and here is why:
Two Adept haras punishes greedy opponents much earlier than an oracle, something Protoss has been missing outside of allins since the wol days.
It is rather cost efficiant against marines (pre combat shield maybe too much) and can tank against terran.
The only gateway unit that is effective against hydras, not so much against roaches, but the synergy with Immortals is strong.
Overall it is one of my favourite new units and I like its current role. Specially against terran it feels super strong right now, maybe even OP, but I think it's too early to say so. Now let's talk about the upgrade. Usually upgrades to a t1 unit change some of the mechanics, the way you utilize it and opens possibilities. Blink, charge, stimpack and even the zerg speed upgrades alter the corresponding units a lot - the shield upgrade not so much. It just makes one of the most tanky units even harder to kill and gives a flat stat buff. But the Adepts can use an upgrade, in later stages it falls behind the stalker. It's less versatile and blink is simply great against anything.
So here is my propsal for that upgrade: Instead of a simple +50 shield upgrade make it replenish its shield or parts of it automaticly after use of Psionic Transfer. For example let's say the upgrade only gives +20 flat bonus to the shield but heals your shield for 50 points after you use the ability (just to through in some random values). It promotes using the unit's positioning ability in the battle.
Think of this scenario, you defend with Adepts, some Sentries, Immortals or Void Rays and maybe some stalkers against a Roach Hydra push. The fight is close, you are hidden behind some forcefields and everything attacks the roaches. But the hidden pro inside you wants more efficiency, you move the shades of your Adepts behind the enemy lines and try to snipe the Hydras. Well thought, but the soften up Adepts die fast without the safety of your force fields and this move end up hurting you. With this new version of the upgrade it sill might be safer behind your lines, but it could give you more interesting options in the battle.
The problem with that upgrade proposal is that it doesn't synergise with what the ability does. If you're using it on damaged adepts in battle, you're probably using it to move them back from the front lines. But that becomes unnecessary if the ability is going to heal 50 shields. An upgrade that encourages positional usage of the transfer in battle would be cool, but I'm not sure that this is it.
Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
Adept is good right now IMO and I must say I'm kinda against your suggestion. With all the new abilities and faster pace of the game I don't think this game needs more things that are mandatory to use. HP buff is not something uncommon in SC - combat shields are the same in this regard and they open up new possibilities by making bio viable. Same goes for adept, because with this upgrade, Gateway armies are much more viable.
Your suggestion would not make them more viable in later stages, unless a couple of them I guess.... but what i'm more against is the forced use of abilities for the same gain.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
On July 12 2015 00:54 Insidioussc2 wrote: In case you missed the RedBull Archon mode qualifier go watch the Twitch recodrings here. There were some great games and Alicia + Crank showed how strong Protoss can be in the Beta.
A big factor were their usage of the Adept, it's a vital extension to the gateway arsenal and here is why:
Two Adept haras punishes greedy opponents much earlier than an oracle, something Protoss has been missing outside of allins since the wol days.
It is rather cost efficiant against marines (pre combat shield maybe too much) and can tank against terran.
The only gateway unit that is effective against hydras, not so much against roaches, but the synergy with Immortals is strong.
Overall it is one of my favourite new units and I like its current role. Specially against terran it feels super strong right now, maybe even OP, but I think it's too early to say so. Now let's talk about the upgrade. Usually upgrades to a t1 unit change some of the mechanics, the way you utilize it and opens possibilities. Blink, charge, stimpack and even the zerg speed upgrades alter the corresponding units a lot - the shield upgrade not so much. It just makes one of the most tanky units even harder to kill and gives a flat stat buff. But the Adepts can use an upgrade, in later stages it falls behind the stalker. It's less versatile and blink is simply great against anything.
So here is my propsal for that upgrade: Instead of a simple +50 shield upgrade make it replenish its shield or parts of it automaticly after use of Psionic Transfer. For example let's say the upgrade only gives +20 flat bonus to the shield but heals your shield for 50 points after you use the ability (just to through in some random values). It promotes using the unit's positioning ability in the battle.
Think of this scenario, you defend with Adepts, some Sentries, Immortals or Void Rays and maybe some stalkers against a Roach Hydra push. The fight is close, you are hidden behind some forcefields and everything attacks the roaches. But the hidden pro inside you wants more efficiency, you move the shades of your Adepts behind the enemy lines and try to snipe the Hydras. Well thought, but the soften up Adepts die fast without the safety of your force fields and this move end up hurting you. With this new version of the upgrade it sill might be safer behind your lines, but it could give you more interesting options in the battle.
Adepts have 230HP and good DPS vs light, it's simply that the unit itself is OP for cost and just specialized enough regarding damage to be balanced vs non-light. Protoss is not strong, just Adepts OP.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
There is also others all ins that protoss use adepts.
I dont know what you play in LotV but most terrans agree that adepts are to strong.
I hate the role the Adept fills so much. Instead of getting a more diverse beginning for Protoss, all I see is constant Adept openings. Its a rare occasion to me when that's not the case, which I find sad when there two other offensive ground units plus a Caster that Protoss has early on.
You might enjoy the Adept now, but if they remain basically being the sole reason Protoss early game is viable, it is going to get stale for a lot of people months down the road. There should be lots of different viable strategies that leads to lots of different situations, maps and games, but if Protoss is forced in depending 1 unit, it's going to hard cap potential diversity for both the Protoss and the race they face against.
...wow, off topic. It would be nice if the Adept got a different upgrade at twilight council.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
On July 12 2015 02:19 _indigo_ wrote: I open 1-2 cyclone (depending if he keeps with the adept nonsense or not) and straight into bio. Like taking candy from a baby.
About the blind bunker - terrans are used to doing blind preparation for 4 years. :D Nothing new here.
Yeah people above masters who want to play bio cant just go 1-2 cyclone. Not unless their like plat or something. This is not just as simple as build a turret in case they go oracles.
And cyclone is no liberator to work with bio, to invent a new compostion or something.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
On July 12 2015 02:19 _indigo_ wrote: I open 1-2 cyclone (depending if he keeps with the adept nonsense or not) and straight into bio. Like taking candy from a baby.
About the blind bunker - terrans are used to doing blind preparation for 4 years. :D Nothing new here.
Yeah people above masters who want to play bio cant just go 1-2 cyclone. Not unless their like plat or something. This is not just as simple as build a turret in case they go oracles.
And cyclone is no liberator to work with bio, to invent a new compostion or something.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
I dont know what you play in LotV but most terrans agree that adepts are to strong.
Wall your ramp with queens?
Seems like the obvious answer here.
Except Adepts can use shades to pass trough units... Man i think so many people here dont even play LotV...
Man.. you have no idea what u're talking about. My build is from a GM terran. I'm starting to believe you're actually Silver league HotS zerg after I read like 20 of your posts. Don't just assume stuff for no reason if you don't play Terran race.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
I dont know what you play in LotV but most terrans agree that adepts are to strong.
lol you're always speaking for all of us. seriously, do yourself a favor and shut up.
Masters terran and I play a fair amount of LOTV. It's way too soon to simply say adepts are too strong. They're very good. But dude, you don't know what you're talking about.
On July 12 2015 02:19 _indigo_ wrote: I open 1-2 cyclone (depending if he keeps with the adept nonsense or not) and straight into bio. Like taking candy from a baby.
About the blind bunker - terrans are used to doing blind preparation for 4 years. :D Nothing new here.
Yeah people above masters who want to play bio cant just go 1-2 cyclone. Not unless their like plat or something. This is not just as simple as build a turret in case they go oracles.
And cyclone is no liberator to work with bio, to invent a new compostion or something.
On July 12 2015 02:43 DinoMight wrote:
On July 12 2015 01:51 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
On July 12 2015 01:30 _indigo_ wrote:
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
I dont know what you play in LotV but most terrans agree that adepts are to strong.
Wall your ramp with queens?
Seems like the obvious answer here.
Except Adepts can use shades to pass trough units... Man i think so many people here dont even play LotV...
Man.. you have no idea what u're talking about. My build is from a GM terran. I'm starting to believe you're actually Silver league HotS zerg after I read like 20 of your posts. Don't just assume stuff for no reason if you don't play Terran race.
What if the Adept shield upgrade was tied to an upgrade that gave lesser shield bonuses to either all bipedal Protoss units, or all Gateway units? Maybe you could bump up Zealot shields by +10, tied in with the upgrade.
On July 12 2015 08:55 Pontius Pirate wrote: What if the Adept shield upgrade was tied to an upgrade that gave lesser shield bonuses to either all bipedal Protoss units, or all Gateway units? Maybe you could bump up Zealot shields by +10, tied in with the upgrade.
I think that +10 shields is too irrelevant on most cases, specially against the DPS of bio + concussive shells. Simply, they haven't found the formula regarding the Adept yet.
An infantry unit that is meant to be strong vs minor units cannot shoot only every 2.25 seconds if it has a projectile. That's a TON of wasted shots/time. Maybe they should try smartfire, which is on paper the best mode to counter high masses of units with smarfire themselves. The weapon optimizes the damage output very poorly.
I think that is is logical thinking.
Just copy-paste a damn Marauder stats to a Protoss version. (Consistend damage,efficient attacker)
Study a reimplement of old chain damage Adept upgrade, but with actual costs and research time. Old upgrade took 140s to be researched, while actual one is very comfy to get.
Buff movement speed significantly so it is consistent and usable without needing upgrades (or share speed buff with zealots)
Readjust the transfer mechanic (maybe just keep the speed and turn adept into a spirit mode that ignores projectiles and meele attacks). Adepts jumping on top of things it's just another way to make Tanks shit in PvT.
Violà, you just have a strong unit, mobile, microable and with annoying mechanic that benefits from micro.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
I dont know what you play in LotV but most terrans agree that adepts are to strong.
Two good suggestions from the youtube comments: 1) Spine block your ramp with 2 Evos for Shade, lift when reinforcements. 2) Also Adepts are poopy against Spines.
On July 12 2015 01:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Adepts are to strong for both Ling/Hydra and Bio They have to nerf the damage and send it to the upgrade. Its just to OP for the early game. Early all ins based on adepts with 2-3 stalker support would just kill bio and Ling/Hydra
I'm not sure about the Ling/Hydra because I haven't tested it too much yet, but adepts are not a problem for bio. You see, I play bio all the time in LotV and for me, adept is fine. But I agree that you can't open in the same way as before, Reaper opening is really bad.
4 gate and if you dont blindly make a bunker and prepare your dead. CranK did it.. a bunch of times. Even tricked them into a 4 gate adept but in fact it was a proxy oracle. LOL
I dont know what you play in LotV but most terrans agree that adepts are to strong.
Two good suggestions from the youtube comments: 1) Spine block your ramp with 2 Evos for Shade, lift when reinforcements. 2) Also Adepts are poopy against Spines.
So how do the units morphed in the main get to the natural, you're effectively sacking it?
You should see it happening with that overlord at 2:25 or so, the key isn't roaches I used to go roach but your economy isn't powerful enough to keep up with their army production you have to shut it down with speed lings. If Lowko starts a third queen in the main after the first one is built, he can send the one queen to the natural edge and the main one right on the edge of the main base creep (incase he pushes in with the shade) this should push away the adepts with the first 4 lings/queens the two adepts should do next to no damage as soon as you see the two shades that are following the first two you can assume he's putting on a bit more than light pressure and throw down a spine at the natural and start non stop lings, your injects will have popped and given you 10 larva or so by the time these hatch you have more than enough lings to kill the push but you have to act fast because it snowballs hard due to warpgate larva on zerglings not being efficient and the lack of drones also the third queen needs to lay a creep tumour at the edge of the main creep so the queens can move around better. Anyway that's how you hold it, you should've been able to kill their initial units and be able to swarm the staging ground. The only problem I see is if they sit back until warpgate is done just defending the pylon and minimising surface area for the lings, if that's the case you should probably start another spine crawler in the natural and one in the main and start a going 50/50 drones and lings since to get past the natural spines he will have to use the shade to get in but you should have creep connecting the two bases at this point and a transfuse/enough lings to stop his army if he's commited into your base.
EPT
I'm starting to believe you're actually Silver league HotS zerg after I read like 20 of your posts. Don't just assume stuff for no reason if you don't play Terran race.
