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After using the new Ravager, the light one, i must say im quite suprised.
Tho it has less HP then the Roach it has some uses.
> Its good against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks and marauders, being light it doesnt take as much damage and gets to use its ability alot more
> good at killing slow overloords
> breaking walls
> zoning or forcing clashes with corrosive bile
What the ravager really needs ?
> 6 range
Because it has 4 range its impossible to use this unit in any compostion, his supportive role cant be added to any existence composition, and can only work mostly alone because they take alot of space on the main lines.
> better price but same supply to prevent mass ravager
The problem is that 2-3 roaches are still better then a ravager, mostly because they can get the job done at a better price, with tunelling claws you can also escape FF so it makes the ravager role kind of useless in the long run
The 6 range will alow the Ravager to deal with enemy range units better, and also allow the unit to be played in a compostion, not taking all the front space in clashes.
The price should be 50/25 or 75/25 because Zerg already has gas heavy compositions. This would allow for more use of the Ravager, and more acceaptable for a unit transitions.
Keep in mind that the Ravager is 3 supply so it cant be massed.
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Those are some drastic buffs you're asking for...
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On June 22 2015 01:41 LoneYoShi wrote:
Those are some drastic buffs you're asking for...
I think its reasonable. Most people i saw do want them to get 6 range just to able to work in compostions with other units since this is a support unit after all. And after the nerf you only see Ravager in ZvZ and very few, in no other match up you see them.
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Sentries have a short range, get pushed in front of stalkers, then die a horrible death while plinking away at bad guys with a feeble laserbeam...yet they're still extremely effective units. Are Ravager fireballs so horrible that the unit cannot contribute at any stage of the game without the autoattack?
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On June 22 2015 02:10 PineapplePizza wrote:
Sentries have a short range, get pushed in front of stalkers, then die a horrible death while plinking away at bad guys with a feeble laserbeam...yet they're still extremely effective units. Are Ravager fireballs so horrible that the unit cannot contribute at any stage of the game without the autoattack?
You can use sentries to protect your army so they can protect themselfs with FF, Stalkers can also be used in this compostion since they have 6 range.
I already said what Corrosive Bille brings to the table.The problem is the Roach can do the same at a better price and the roach can be used in compotions like roach/hydra , you cant go ravager/hydra because its a gas heavy compostion and they are to big for the front.
Sentries is a supportive unit that can avoid damage even when in front of the army, while the ravager cant do that and takes alot of space and cost.
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I'd much rather see the autoattack removed entirely, in exchange for more HP, and a wider radius on corrosive bile.
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Ravager isn't meant to replace roaches......its reason for existing are exactly the ones you mentioned:
* breaking walls (I think this is actually why it was invented, but who knows)
* zoning or forcing clashes with corrosive bile
* Its good against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks and marauders
It's not meant to be a main unit, merely a specialty unit in a supporting role.
Remember when the terran ghost was overpowered, and people were making mass ghost and winning? Then the ghost got nerfed, and now it's used in a supporting role with a few in a large army. That's the role Blizzard is hoping to fill with the ravager.
(btw it was funny, even six months after the ghost nerf you'd still find people trying to mass ghosts. You can't expect your favorite strategy to always work).
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On June 22 2015 02:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:
I'd much rather see the autoattack removed entirely, in exchange for more HP, and a wider radius on corrosive bile.
That to would be a nice idea. A true support unit.
On June 22 2015 02:48 phantomfive wrote:
Ravager isn't meant to replace roaches......its reason for existing are exactly the ones you mentioned:
* breaking walls (I think this is actually why it was invented, but who knows)
* zoning or forcing clashes with corrosive bile
* Its good against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks and marauders
It's not meant to be a main unit, merely a specialty unit in a supporting role.
Remember when the terran ghost was overpowered, and people were making mass ghost and winning? Then the ghost got nerfed, and now it's used in a supporting role with a few in a large army. That's the role Blizzard is hoping to fill with the ravager.
(btw it was funny, even six months after the ghost nerf you'd still find people trying to mass ghosts. You can't expect your favorite strategy to always work).
I think your missing the point.
Yes the Ravager is in theory a supporting unit but because it has 4 range its a main unit, it stays in front like roaches and it takes more space. This is why i said that it need 6 range, to make it a support unit and use it in unit compostions.
You can only use them as main units.
Im not suggesting to remplace roaches, im suggesting to be a real support unit.
Right now people could use them as main"s vs mauders/immortals etc cuz they are light units.
But they dont because its costly and the same job could be done by 2-3 roaches.
2-3 roach vs 1 marauder is still better then 1 ravager vs 1 marauder
2-3 roach that goes bellow a FF is still better then 1 ravager that destorys the FF
2-3 roach can even be dropped now and no longer the need to destoy walls
Cost wise roach is better and does the same job as ravager.... sometimes even better.
I hope i made my point easier.
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How about more damage on the corrosive bile so that you can actually break walls with just a few of them and not have to invest tons of money in an otherwise mediocre army
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ZergLingShepherd1 is asking for Zerg buff... lol
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On June 22 2015 04:44 Kranyum wrote:
How about more damage on the corrosive bile so that you can actually break walls with just a few of them and not have to invest tons of money in an otherwise mediocre army
This is not about needing more Ravagers to do 1 job.
Its about making the ravager a support unit, not a main unit that does the same job as a roach but with higher cost.
Please read the whole thread.
On June 22 2015 04:47 BeStFAN wrote:
ZergLingShepherd1 is asking for Zerg buff... lol
Im not the only one who says that the current ravager has no real point.
Streamers and pros already said it.
In fact you see them in tournaments in ZvZ only, few of them... and never in another match up.
When most Zerg players doesnt make use of Ravagers against FF, a role that was given to the Ravager you should wonder why...
Aks yourself that before judging a post.
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On June 22 2015 01:23 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The 6 range will alow the Ravager to deal with enemy range units better, and also allow the unit to be played in a compostion, not taking all the front space in clashes.
Why cant you just micro them back before the fight starts?
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On June 22 2015 06:51 CrazyBread92 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 01:23 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The 6 range will alow the Ravager to deal with enemy range units better, and also allow the unit to be played in a compostion, not taking all the front space in clashes.
Why cant you just micro them back before the fight starts?
> harder to do since they are fat, basically you need open filed to do this
> they will still battle for space on the main lines cuz 4 range
> they wont do any damage while competing for space
> You will keep trying to bring them back while also using their ability instead of focusing on the skill shot witch is important.
Its really dumb logic here and mainly why they dont work right now in any compositions.
No support unit should battle for front space on main lines.
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On June 22 2015 07:33 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 06:51 CrazyBread92 wrote:On June 22 2015 01:23 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The 6 range will alow the Ravager to deal with enemy range units better, and also allow the unit to be played in a compostion, not taking all the front space in clashes.
Why cant you just micro them back before the fight starts? > harder to do since they are fat, basically you need open filed to do this > they will still battle for space on the main lines cuz 4 range > they wont do any damage while competing for space > You will keep trying to bring them back while also using their ability instead of focusing on the skill shot witch is important. Its really dumb logic here and mainly why they dont work right now in any compositions. No support unit should battle for front space on main lines.
News flash: You need to micro your valuable units in order to keep them alive. Who knew?
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On June 22 2015 07:33 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
Its really dumb logic here and mainly why they dont work right now in any compositions.
No support unit should battle for front space on main lines.
You mean like sentries and ghosts?
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I do agree that ravager needs a look at. It is too easily clumped and blocked due to its fat model size and the horrible range.
But to be honest, I don't know how it can be improved as well, it's in such an awkward position
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On June 22 2015 11:33 wongfeihung wrote:
News flash: You need to micro your valuable units in order to keep them alive. Who knew?
On June 22 2015 12:31 Lexender wrote:
You mean like sentries and ghosts?
Troll posts. Maybe Sentries and Ghosts should have range 4 with the collision size of the Immortal. Have fun microing those.
OP has a valid concern here.
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I'd agree with the range upgrade if you downgrade the range from Lurkers from 9 to 7. As it is, Protoss has absolutely nothing which can beat the Lurker unless P goes Skytoss.
You could blink all day and run around to snipe lurkers from time to time, but they just obliterate all ground a P can make. If you increase the range of Ravager to 6 without doing something, it will be Skytoss vs Z all day, every day..
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On June 22 2015 07:33 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 06:51 CrazyBread92 wrote:On June 22 2015 01:23 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The 6 range will alow the Ravager to deal with enemy range units better, and also allow the unit to be played in a compostion, not taking all the front space in clashes.
Why cant you just micro them back before the fight starts? > harder to do since they are fat, basically you need open filed to do this> they will still battle for space on the main lines cuz 4 range > they wont do any damage while competing for space > You will keep trying to bring them back while also using their ability instead of focusing on the skill shot witch is important. Its really dumb logic here and mainly why they dont work right now in any compositions. No support unit should battle for front space on main lines.
I'd actually like them to reduce their size. It got a lot of praise for it's aesthetic design but I think their current size makes them look out of place really. They should just be like a more spiderlike roach; The size of a Roach but with longer legs.
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The cost is fine, since even with 3 supply we would see too many ravagers for a cheaper price. I think it should get back it's 6 range and be lair tech.
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On June 22 2015 12:31 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 07:33 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
Its really dumb logic here and mainly why they dont work right now in any compositions.
No support unit should battle for front space on main lines.
You mean like sentries and ghosts?
No, i already explained why those units can protect themselfs, are small enough to be microed can use FF etc.
On June 22 2015 14:27 ETisME wrote:
I do agree that ravager needs a look at. It is too easily clumped and blocked due to its fat model size and the horrible range.
But to be honest, I don't know how it can be improved as well, it's in such an awkward position
Like i said 6 range would make it a support unit.
Also the models could be a bit smaller.
The price, at least in gas should be lowered since they arent greater the roaches and should never be, so their price should not be this expensive.
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Completely agree on the range issue. At this point, it's a redundant unit. But you should post on Bnet forums instead, you'll have more chance of catching Blizz's attention than here
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Ok I behaved like an asshole sorry about that.
However I disagree in big part, Ravagers, shouldn't be used as damage dealers, thats what roaches and hydras are for, I just think that the spell should be stronger, I'm not sure what is it that it would take for that but I don't think improving their attack is the solution.
Ravagers should be support units not stronger roaches.
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On June 22 2015 23:13 Lexender wrote:
Ok I behaved like an asshole sorry about that.
However I disagree in big part, Ravagers, shouldn't be used as damage dealers, thats what roaches and hydras are for, I just think that the spell should be stronger, I'm not sure what is it that it would take for that but I don't think improving their attack is the solution.
Ravagers should be support units not stronger roaches.
Well there is another idea that has some support from the community.
That is to remove the attack of the ravager completely and make the corrosive bile stronger, more AoE and Range for the skill shot and faster landing hits + a buff to health.
That would make the unit a support artillery unit.
I do agree that they should not be better then roaches, but they should also be useful for their cost otherwise people will make just more roaches and never ravagers like we are seeing in the beta.
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Ravagers were nerfed because they were too strong. Lurkers were amusingly buffed before that nerf because ravagers were too strong and are along the roach/hydra tech path. Ravagers are there as a potential balance knob to turn, but at this point they don't need a buff for the sake of a buff.
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On June 22 2015 22:54 parkufarku wrote:
Completely agree on the range issue. At this point, it's a redundant unit. But you should post on Bnet forums instead, you'll have more chance of catching Blizz's attention than here
I posted there to, but to many trolls on Bnet, here at least there are some people with arguments or at least a discussion.
On June 23 2015 00:56 TheWinks wrote:
Ravagers were nerfed because they were too strong. Lurkers were amusingly buffed before that nerf because ravagers were too strong and are along the roach/hydra tech path. Ravagers are there as a potential balance knob to turn, but at this point they don't need a buff for the sake of a buff.
I agree that they where too strong but they are now overnerfed. If you watched a minimum of LotV tournaments you would know that.
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On June 23 2015 01:33 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 22:54 parkufarku wrote:
Completely agree on the range issue. At this point, it's a redundant unit. But you should post on Bnet forums instead, you'll have more chance of catching Blizz's attention than here I posted there to, but to many trolls on Bnet, here at least there are some people with arguments or at least a discussion. Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 00:56 TheWinks wrote:
Ravagers were nerfed because they were too strong. Lurkers were amusingly buffed before that nerf because ravagers were too strong and are along the roach/hydra tech path. Ravagers are there as a potential balance knob to turn, but at this point they don't need a buff for the sake of a buff. I agree that they where too strong but they are now overnerfed. If you watched a minimum of LotV tournaments you would know that.
And now you're asking for +50% in range AND a price decrease ? I know LotV is here to experiment big changes, but I'm not sure you realise what you're really asking for here.
Regarding your argument that they are only used in ZvZ: have you seen ghost outside of lategame TvP ? Or reapers used past the 8th minute mark in any matchup ? Some units are niche units, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can't expect to have all units viable during the whole game in all matchups...
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On June 24 2015 22:04 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 01:33 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 22 2015 22:54 parkufarku wrote:
Completely agree on the range issue. At this point, it's a redundant unit. But you should post on Bnet forums instead, you'll have more chance of catching Blizz's attention than here I posted there to, but to many trolls on Bnet, here at least there are some people with arguments or at least a discussion. On June 23 2015 00:56 TheWinks wrote:
Ravagers were nerfed because they were too strong. Lurkers were amusingly buffed before that nerf because ravagers were too strong and are along the roach/hydra tech path. Ravagers are there as a potential balance knob to turn, but at this point they don't need a buff for the sake of a buff. I agree that they where too strong but they are now overnerfed. If you watched a minimum of LotV tournaments you would know that. And now you're asking for +50% in range AND a price decrease ? I know LotV is here to experiment big changes, but I'm not sure you realise what you're really asking for here. Regarding your argument that they are only used in ZvZ: have you seen ghost outside of lategame TvP ? Or reapers used past the 8th minute mark in any matchup ? Some units are niche units, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can't expect to have all units viable during the whole game in all matchups...
Im asking for the unit to become a support unit as it was designed, 6 range allows for that, right now its a main unit with a support ability that cant be used in any unit compostions.
Ghost is a tier 3 unit not 1 tier unit as Ravager, it will be used vs High Armor units like Ultralisk/Immortals and EMP for HT
There is not a single unit that can do the same agreesion as the Reaper in the early game from the Terran side, its not the same thing when it comes to roaches and ravagers.
And that is the problem this unit has no role... like i said its used just in ZvZ and his role was supposed to be against FF + zoning and supporting, but its not used because its to expensive, and Roaches with tunelling claws >>> Ravagers and after early game, Lurkers > Ravagers
It has no place for now, not even as a niche unit.
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If you buff it's range that's a buff in DPS in fights, because it has to move around less and it's a buff to it's survivability while shooting. This sounds like a combat buff to me, rather than a buff in it's supporting role.
If you want to give a buff to the units supporting role=the ability, you must increase the strength of said ability.
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I'd say buff the autoattack range, decrease the damage by a lot, and then compensate by buffing corrosive bile. Focus the design on the utility of corrosive bile and less on its direct combat stats. The autoattack should just help in positioning in combat and being useful in a pinch, not as a direct upgrade over the Roach attack.
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On June 25 2015 00:06 ejozl wrote:
If you buff it's range that's a buff in DPS in fights, because it has to move around less and it's a buff to it's survivability while shooting. This sounds like a combat buff to me, rather than a buff in it's supporting role.
If you want to give a buff to the units supporting role=the ability, you must increase the strength of said ability.
You can nerf the damege to compensate, but at least now they can be used in compostion and do their support role, while not dying in the main line.
Also im all for even removing the attack as long asthe ability is stonger and has a better range faster landing and more AoE, in order to use it as a support unit.
Something like artillery units.
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EPT
