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I think this sort of thing is very hard to solve, when you keep most zerg units generic. Ie with no bonus against an armor type it is virtually impossible to create units that won't push eachother out. Roaches, ravagers and hydra's all sit in the ranged fairly fast ground unit role which just overlap
Agree with this. I would definitely suggest to change damage value slightly. Not enough to create a hardcounter feeling, but enough to reward players for getting Hydras in certain situations, Roaches in another and Ravagers in a 3rd situation.
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On April 21 2015 19:30 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I think this sort of thing is very hard to solve, when you keep most zerg units generic. Ie with no bonus against an armor type it is virtually impossible to create units that won't push eachother out. Roaches, ravagers and hydra's all sit in the ranged fairly fast ground unit role which just overlap Agree with this. I would definitely suggest to change damage value slightly. Not enough to create a hardcounter feeling, but enough to reward players for getting Hydras in certain situations, Roaches in another and Ravagers in a 3rd situation.
Yes, I can also get behind this. It's kind of hard to have these units differentiate if they have no bonus damages at all. Also, given the addition of the light adept and Protoss needing a bit stronger early-midgame now, I think making the hydra like 10+4vsarmored (instead of plain 12) and the roach like 14+4vs light (instead of plain 16) wouldn't be a terrible idea.
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As long as the ravager is an amove unit like the roach with a spell on top of it i will fight for the one truth!
Ravagers suck, pls remove (or redesign them completely)
It still boggles my mind that you guys are ok with a morphing unit being that similar to the initial unit.
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On April 21 2015 21:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As long as the ravager is an amove unit like the roach with a spell on top of it i will fight for the one truth!
Ravagers suck, pls remove (or redesign them completely)
It still boggles my mind that you guys are ok with a morphing unit being that similar to the initial unit.
I don't agree that it is that similar. It has its stats reversed. And the corrosive bile is quite a distinguishing factor.
And well, I'm actually arguing all over the place for making those differences more significant. 
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Spitball suggestion:
What if the ravager became a melee unit like the aberration? Y'know, that big clunky anti-armor guy from the campaign? If the intent for the ravager was to break down or bypass walls (that's what I'm assuming corrosive bile's primary function is, given its hatch-tech availability), give it some high anti-armor (or, if that's too dangerous, specifically anti-building) DPS for smashing them down; when the game goes later such that a (relatively) slow melee unit isn't gonna cut it, the corrosive bile can still be used for zoning purposes while you transition to something more stable, like roach/hydra. Conversely, one could morph excess roaches into ravagers in the lategame to do some building sniping.
Of course, this is 125% theorycrafting.
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On April 21 2015 21:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 21:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As long as the ravager is an amove unit like the roach with a spell on top of it i will fight for the one truth!
Ravagers suck, pls remove (or redesign them completely)
It still boggles my mind that you guys are ok with a morphing unit being that similar to the initial unit. I don't agree that it is that similar. It has its stats reversed. And the corrosive bile is quite a distinguishing factor. And well, I'm actually arguing all over the place for making those differences more significant.
Look at the other morphing units and then tell me that the roach and the ravager aren't that similar.
Obviously they changed some stats, but in the end the ravager still functions quite similarly.
Blizzard's only concept was to make a unit which counters forcefields and giving the roach that role one way or another.
So they created a high dps roach, wow how original -.-
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On April 21 2015 22:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 21:52 Big J wrote:On April 21 2015 21:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As long as the ravager is an amove unit like the roach with a spell on top of it i will fight for the one truth!
Ravagers suck, pls remove (or redesign them completely)
It still boggles my mind that you guys are ok with a morphing unit being that similar to the initial unit. I don't agree that it is that similar. It has its stats reversed. And the corrosive bile is quite a distinguishing factor. And well, I'm actually arguing all over the place for making those differences more significant. Look at the other morphing units and then tell me that the roach and the ravager aren't that similar. Obviously they changed some stats, but in the end the ravager still functions quite similarly. Blizzard's only concept was to make a unit which counters forcefields and giving the roach that role one way or another. So they created a high dps roach, wow how original -.-
Given how horrible blizzard is at getting their designs to work the way they want, them trying to create a high dps roach is a good indication how little the unit has in common with the original roach.
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On April 21 2015 22:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 22:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 21 2015 21:52 Big J wrote:On April 21 2015 21:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As long as the ravager is an amove unit like the roach with a spell on top of it i will fight for the one truth!
Ravagers suck, pls remove (or redesign them completely)
It still boggles my mind that you guys are ok with a morphing unit being that similar to the initial unit. I don't agree that it is that similar. It has its stats reversed. And the corrosive bile is quite a distinguishing factor. And well, I'm actually arguing all over the place for making those differences more significant. Look at the other morphing units and then tell me that the roach and the ravager aren't that similar. Obviously they changed some stats, but in the end the ravager still functions quite similarly. Blizzard's only concept was to make a unit which counters forcefields and giving the roach that role one way or another. So they created a high dps roach, wow how original -.- Given how horrible blizzard is at getting their designs to work the way they want, them trying to create a high dps roach is a good indication how little the unit has in common with the original roach.
Huh?
I am talking about the most basic concept.
The roach is range ground to ground unit which is used as a basic ground army unit.
The Ravager is exactly like that, the spell is the only difference here.
Compare that with the Hydra -> Lurker, Zergling -> Baneling, Corruptor -> Broodlord
It's just extremely underwhelming to me, that i hate the spell itself is the icing on the cake
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On April 21 2015 22:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 22:24 Big J wrote:On April 21 2015 22:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 21 2015 21:52 Big J wrote:On April 21 2015 21:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As long as the ravager is an amove unit like the roach with a spell on top of it i will fight for the one truth!
Ravagers suck, pls remove (or redesign them completely)
It still boggles my mind that you guys are ok with a morphing unit being that similar to the initial unit. I don't agree that it is that similar. It has its stats reversed. And the corrosive bile is quite a distinguishing factor. And well, I'm actually arguing all over the place for making those differences more significant. Look at the other morphing units and then tell me that the roach and the ravager aren't that similar. Obviously they changed some stats, but in the end the ravager still functions quite similarly. Blizzard's only concept was to make a unit which counters forcefields and giving the roach that role one way or another. So they created a high dps roach, wow how original -.- Given how horrible blizzard is at getting their designs to work the way they want, them trying to create a high dps roach is a good indication how little the unit has in common with the original roach. Huh? I am talking about the most basic concept. The roach is range ground to ground unit which is used as a basic ground army unit. The Ravager is exactly like that, the spell is the only difference here. Compare that with the Hydra -> Lurker, Zergling -> Baneling, Corruptor -> Broodlord It's just extremely underwhelming to me, that i hate the spell itself is the icing on the cake
The ravager is a glasscanon type of unit, the roach is quite far at the top of tankiest units in the game.
4-->6range also used to be quite a difference in the game. I guess not that much anymore since the new median seems to be 9range.
Yes, it is more similar than the other morphs. Which I couldn't care less for, as long as it ends up as a unique, playable and fun unit.
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Just wanna give some impressions from a LotV player with around 90 games of Zerg or so in it. The ravager is very different from the roach.
1st Very different cost 1 roach is 2 food 75min 25 gas / 1 ravager is 3 food 100min 100 gas
2nd different range roach 4 range / ravager 6 range
3rd different dps roach as +/- 1.5 attack speed / ravager has 0.6 attack speed both have same dmg (16+2 for each upgrade )
4th different size, this makes the roach better in terms of mobility
5th different skills, roach has a harass/runaway skill in burrow movement + healing / ravager has a displacement attack
6th different hp roach 145hp/ ravager 120hp
(notes on corrosive bile, excellent for low hp buildings, useful against units, good players don't get hit by it. Instead u learn to use the skill to force movement out of your opponent, either by putting it in the way so they can't move forward or in the bk so they can't runaway, etc...)
TLDR While to viewers they may seem similar, their roles are different, because of their different stats and very different costs one is a mass-able unit(roach) while the other isn't. Making a lot of ravagers usually means for every ravager that u have u have 4 less roaches, so balance is key.
PS: Personally I like to make a lot of roaches, move in to my opponent base and reinforce with lings while morphing my damaged roaches so I get more from the morph(they come bk full hp), never having more than 5 or 6 at a time, if they aren't dying I get bk to reinforcing with roaches. Since getting a 8 more roaches is better than having 2 more ravagers, the limiting factor is the gas not the minerals and people tend to forget how it changes everything.
Bazik
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Ravagers are extremely noobish A-click type units. I mean you have the zerglings, you have hydras, you have lurkers now, you have vipers, etc.. why the hell do we get another mindless A-click type unit?
I still hate the roach for being such a unit, and now we got 2 such units for the Zerg. Not only is it completely unzergy, but its completely noob type unit.
I feel like any unit that reduces skill and makes the game more mindless A-click should be removed.
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Yup. There's no a trade-off. It''s just a "this unit is now better" button.
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EPT
