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On April 13 2015 11:09 rpgalon wrote:
lol, forgiveness is exactly what protoss lacks, the race does not forgive mistakes from the opponent or from the protoss player, it's the race that only go big. The best way to avoid that is to play passive instead of trying to make stuff happen.
Almost every action you decide to take with protoss you either win big time or get rekt.
The Disruptor is like the the best example of the race as a whole. and of course I'm exaggerating a bit, sometimes disruptor trades evenly or slightly (un)favorable, but it lacks the ability to do that consistently just like the protoss race.
This problem is far harder to solve than the inability of the race to grab new bases in LOTV.
Taking my statements out of context is not winning you anything.
Chrono boost makes poor worker production easier to catch up on as a newbie.
Warp in lets you rapidly rebuild units. As a newbie.
Overexaggerating and doing PRECISELY what I just described (meta analysis wanking that just doesn't mirror the real games people play) is exactly what's wrong with balance discussion.
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I'd like to see some change with the adept. Right now it feels like yet another harassment only unit for Protoss which is a role that's already oversaturated. Making it trade well with light units in the early and mid game would be nice, and might make Protoss more stable early on.
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It's probably at the bottom of the priority list, but do hope they get around to doing something with the Mothership. I always thought it was cool and fitting that Protoss supposedly has the only super unit in the game, yet it seems so unimpressive. I think at a minimum abduct and neural shouldn't work on it.
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NVM done with posting on TL even if i thinks its worth it or not.
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On April 13 2015 04:35 sitromit wrote:
Every time I hear Protoss complain about their status in LotV, I remember HotS beta, and how they complained through the entire thing that they were broken and terrible, only to dominate for the next 2 years once the game went live.
This is the funniest thing I've read on the internet all month. Thanks man, I really needed that laugh.
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I don't think the current disruptor can hit air, can it? Making them hit air as well is not a bad idea IMO. Would help vs mass mutas to some extent. As of it being viable against terran bio...nope, I'd rather have colossi. Decent terrans would know how to micro against disruptors as they do against banelings.
And the adept, like others said is probably useful as harassment units only as they are now. 4 range, weaker than a zealot/stalker and a low fire rate, they will get shredded by bio and roaches. The bounce thing doesn't come until twilight council and I don't think people would delay blink/charge for it. And seriously, change its name please.
The carrier build time reduction is much appreciated, but with the new corruptors I don't think that will help. The AoE bomb thing corruptors have seems pretty strong.
Protoss have relatively weak cheap units and it's always a struggle to get the big hitters out. The beta so far doesn't seem to address any of that, instead they give zerg ravagers and terran cyclones, both great core units. Well at least the campaign will be fun...hopefully.
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On April 13 2015 12:08 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:09 rpgalon wrote:
lol, forgiveness is exactly what protoss lacks, the race does not forgive mistakes from the opponent or from the protoss player, it's the race that only go big. The best way to avoid that is to play passive instead of trying to make stuff happen.
Almost every action you decide to take with protoss you either win big time or get rekt.
The Disruptor is like the the best example of the race as a whole. and of course I'm exaggerating a bit, sometimes disruptor trades evenly or slightly (un)favorable, but it lacks the ability to do that consistently just like the protoss race.
This problem is far harder to solve than the inability of the race to grab new bases in LOTV. Taking my statements out of context is not winning you anything. Chrono boost makes poor worker production easier to catch up on as a newbie. Warp in lets you rapidly rebuild units. As a newbie. Overexaggerating and doing PRECISELY what I just described (meta analysis wanking that just doesn't mirror the real games people play) is exactly what's wrong with balance discussion.
Chronoboost allows Protoss to keep up with Z and T when it comes to mining. Z can mass produce drones, T have mules. If P uses chronoboost to catch up on worker count because their macro is lacking then they've missed out on vital chronoboosts to get upgrades/tech out to deal with T and Z armies.
Warp-in allows for Protoss to be able to defend harassment back at home. The main issue with the Protoss race is that the army isn't very mobile and doesn't allow for the main army to split into smaller sections a lot of the time. The units are fragile and P can easily be pulled apart by ling run-bys. Muta harass and T drops, without warp-in what is P supposed to do? Photon cannons aren't the answer as T can just stim in and kill, lings can surround and kill and Mutas in a high enough number can easily destroy them, just as they can against Missile Turrets in ZvT
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Buff photon cannon then. How about giving it a secondary ability kind of like the reaver in BW ?
Make it an upgrade in the robo bay, then pay 100 minerals and your photon gets a 'reaver bomb' shot, that you can only use manually, works against ground and air. Pay 100 to recharge.
Then to avoid invincible defenses the photon cannon is shut down for x seconds after using that ability.
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i thought the mothership core's "get out of jail free card" was a good defenders advantage. Cant just sit on 2 stalkers and tech to 3-3 while warping in only when you need to.
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On April 13 2015 17:14 FaultyReDD wrote:
i thought the mothership core's "get out of jail free card" was a good defenders advantage. Cant just sit on 2 stalkers and tech to 3-3 while warping in only when you need to.
Even in HotS you can't do that, at least against half decent players.
If you have 2/3 bases to work with sure but the thing is, in LotV the economic changes mean you have to expand quicker and a lot more and Protoss just can't do that effectively in the midgame, especially with the nerfed warp-in mechanics. Protoss cannot spread forces too thin without just dying to harass from Z and T. Gateway forces are too fragile, Immortals are now nerfed, Forcefields are not as good against Z anymore thanks to the Ravager.
All in all it's hard for P to get the necessary tech up while defending the numerous expansions that are required to keep up economically and there's very little in the way currently for P to effectively harass or deal with things like cyclones/ravagers.
Cyclones can easily lock-on and kill a MSC with little trouble, especially if the Protoss is distracted elsewhere. MSC can't physically cover 3 or 4 bases at once either.
Adepts as they stand are not very good, even against light units like Marines and Lings because they attack too slow to even make the bonus damage worth it. Disruptors are VERY gas intensive and you can whiff with them, sometimes horribly and kill your own units, they also can't damage air.
Blizz still needs to tweak something, economy for sure, TL guys have come up with some excellent suggestions in that regard that won't be such a kick in the nuts for Protoss. Warp-ins need tweaking too, while I do kinda like the extra damage units take while warping in I also don't like it at the same time. Makes it a lot easier for harassment to do a LOT more damage and drops and mutas can already do a lot even if you warp in good time.
I really feel Blizz should make warp-gate a later game tech while decreasing the production time on gateways to make it more in-line with T and Z production times because as it stands, pure gateway without warp-gate is just too slow. Buff the Adept to make it viable (as it stands, blink stalker is still the go-to tech choice just because of the cyclone and the adept's lackluster dps is just eh)
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Nerf the immortal, and reduce its cost and build time. Make it so its more masseable sort of like a dragoon that still comes from the robo. (I didn't play BW). This change is needed to help the Protoss have a stronger mid game while not buffing the Stalker against ground, which due to its mobility and blink, could lead to very strong all ins.
Agree, it is important to remember that the Dragoon did have 2.95 movement speed (same as Stalker), and I believe the Immortal must be signifciantly faster as well so protoss has an easier time moving out on the map.
Buff the adept: In my opinion, two changes need to happen to make it a good core unit: Increase its health, and make it so you decide when to teleport him, and not the "7 second" rule we have right now.
-Give the Stalker two different attacks. One for Air and one for ground. The ground one is the same. The air one is just 2-3 points better than the ground one. I'd manage it as a passive "The Stalked deals increased damage to air targets" This will help against the units that counter the Tempest, Colossus, Warp Prism and Carriers, but shouldn't be that big of an increased attack to not make Stalkers hard counter them.
You are on to some logic here. From my perspective, I would change (buff) the damage of the Stalker to 12-13 vs everything (from 10 + 4 vs armored) and give the Immortal a larger role in the game IF the Adept wasn't in the game.
Now, with the addition of the Adept I think it makes sense to focus the Stalkers role more as an anti-air/mobility unit than a core vs light unit (so its damage vs ground light shouldn't be significantly buffed). Thus, it could use a seperate air and ground attack.
Not sure about the Adept being able to teleport at any point in time as I think that might reduce counterplay, but its shadow-micro potential needs a huge buff imo.
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Charge should go to cybernetics while warpgate to the twilight council, buff build time from gateway so protoss can keep with T Z unit production before warpgate tech.
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On April 13 2015 04:35 sitromit wrote:
Every time I hear Protoss complain about their status in LotV, I remember HotS beta, and how they complained through the entire thing that they were broken and terrible, only to dominate for the next 2 years once the game went live.
They did? Stats so different
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I have an idea:
-Immortals removed from the robo
-Immortals added to the gateway (cyber core requirement)
-Immortals cant be warped in.
that would help stabilize protoss in the early game without requiring too heavy of a tech investment.
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On April 14 2015 02:06 404AlphaSquad wrote:
I have an idea:
-Immortals removed from the robo
-Immortals added to the gateway (cyber core requirement)
-Immortals cant be warped in.
that would help stabilize protoss in the early game without requiring too heavy of a tech investment.
Quite much death to PvP blink but not bad idea.
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On April 14 2015 02:06 404AlphaSquad wrote:
I have an idea:
-Immortals removed from the robo
-Immortals added to the gateway (cyber core requirement)
-Immortals cant be warped in.
that would help stabilize protoss in the early game without requiring too heavy of a tech investment.
I think the biggest issue is that it would allow protoss players to produce immortals and disruptors/colossi all at the same time. It also makes getting observers/warp prisms have no opportunity cost because the robo is just sitting there idle anyway while the protoss player gets the additional tech for the aoe units.
Also, while it seems that sentry/immortal all ins would be harder, it would actually hit a lot harder and maybe faster. Instead of having to build a robo, protoss just tosses down two more gateways after cyber. Then starts producing immortals from two structures rather than one with the extra gas saved from the robo for at least one round of production.
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There's a lot of opportunity here provided they don't just revert changes. The bandaids have been pulled off and the hole in protoss has been exposed. There are probably a lot of possible solutions but it's tough for me to envision one that doesn't involve reworking warpgate and gateway units. That seems like the obvious next step.
Edit: I don't think reworking the immortal is the solution, it just seems like another bandaid. Do away with forcefields, remove/delay warpgate, and give flat stat boosts to gateway units. Proxy's have already been massively nerfed, which was the reason they increased gateway build times in the first place. This is the perfect opportunity to try that and it's something that's been harped on for years now.
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The trouble is that they have gone to the community and said "what do you hate the most about Protoss?" All the changes to Protoss are to "improve micro" or to remove strategies that people didn't like. As a result, Blizzard has nerfed basically every single Protoss unit in one way, directly or indirectly.
BUT they've given nothing back to compensate.
Separately, the economy itself is a nerf to Protoss since tech takes the same time to develop but by the time that tech is done the enemy's economy is much, much stronger. Terran and Zerg have much better spammable low tier units than Protoss.
So you end up with a game where T/Z can spam their good early game units and trade while securing bases. Meanwhile, Protoss gets punished for its reliance on tech and slower rate of expansion.
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On April 14 2015 04:43 DinoMight wrote:BUT they've given nothing back to compensate.
A unit that becomes invincible (two of which can kill ~80 Zerg psi if your opponent isn't looking), and Zed, and range pickup are 'compensations'. Mind you, there are other issues that perhaps make this not so obvious.
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On April 14 2015 08:10 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 04:43 DinoMight wrote:BUT they've given nothing back to compensate. A unit that becomes invincible (two of which can kill ~80 Zerg psi if your opponent isn't looking), and Zed, and range pickup are 'compensations'. Mind you, there are other issues that perhaps make this not so obvious.
A unit that's only really viable if used with a Warp Prism. So Zerg goes Muta and shuts that down.
My point is that Protoss had a number of tools it could use to dictate the pace of the game early. Now with the 3-4 base before anything happens economy, Zerg's "late game" tech switches happen much earlier. So if you don't get Ravager all-inned, by the time you have any tech to speak of Zerg can already very comfortably counter it.
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EPT
