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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On April 07 2015 06:39 cheekymonkey wrote: So, does anyone know what happened to the herc? Did blizzard scrap it, and why? Yeah they did. They've said that it didn't fill any role and wasn't particularly needed by Terran afaik. They are designing new Terran unit though and community is helping. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On April 07 2015 05:59 BillGates wrote: I've lost interest in SC2 past the first two years it was out. I feel like with the "modern" UI and stuff reducing skill a ton compared to BW it was never going to be as fun to play or watch. This new game, with the changes to the economy and everything feels even shittier. I mean every game I watch past the 7-8 minute mark seems to be everyone having 2000-3000 minerals and always being maxed out. How is that fucking fun to play or watch? Its never going to be as fun to watch as SC1 if they don't change the UI, but they'll never will. I mean I can't get excited about a play like casting 5-6 storms or 5-6 fungal growths all over the screen when I know even I can do that. I'm not even that good at the game, but when I can do, what's the excitement about a "pro" player casting it? If everyone can do it, its not that exciting, if at all. I just can't get excited about most of the SC2 plays, because I know I can do the same. Sure I can't beat a high level player, I don't keep up with strategies, with timings, with what's trending and what the best unit composition is, but on a general note I can cast 5-6-7 storms at once, I can "macro" extremely well, I can keep my resources really low all the time, its not a big deal. Where I suck is the tactical battles and stuff, since I play so little. I just think that as long as we have the "modern UI" that keeps the skill ceiling a lot lower compared to BW we can never have a fun watching experience. As long as playing, I know reverting to a more difficult UI will make the game harder to play and we'll see people don't play multiplayer as much, especially the lower level players, and this is the reason Blizzard won't ever make the UI harder. You sound like you have a bad case of nostalgia. There is little sense in purposefully making the UI less instinctive or more difficult just to "add to the challenge". It's a pretty archaic way of looking at things, if you ask me. The attention that isn't dedicated to the actions that would be necessary with an unimproved UI is relocated elsewhere and allows for other kinds of plays. I doubt we could just implement the BW UI and call it progress or even see any perk to it. | ||
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BillGates
471 Posts
On April 07 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote: You're either legit good (then grats, and it's sad to see you don't enjoy watching the game) or your post doesn't make any sense. Everyone can do the motions Federer does, he does not have superhuman flexibility or impossible speed etc. You could mimic his movements for some time. What you wouldn't be able to do in your wildest dreams is time those actions precisely, choose the right type of strike/deplacement, make the right choice at every turn, have the same mental fortitude and a clever tactical plan behind the type of balls you give to your opponent... Same with the great SC2 players. Sure you could do most of the things seen on screen (even splits ?), but could you do them while keeping your minerals low, while thinking ahead of the next step to do and keeping up on scouting, while not missing a beat on injects/mules/chronos and not crumbling under stress/pressure ? I bet you can't and you should be in awe when watching players like Life/soO/PartinG/herO/Maru/INno... I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:07 BillGates wrote: I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. Doing individual tasks in SC2 is the easiest thing ever. Just keeping the minerals low while doing nothing else is absurdly easy. Don't build probes and add a pylon everytime you hit 100. Beautiful ! That's by the way the reason why a lot of very bad players think they actually have good macro, because they never get past 30 workers since their worker production is so unsteady, and never really get enough money to bath in it. In fact they have awful macro and if they were producing workers regularly as long as they can get away with it and hitting the injects/chronos/mules they would always hover above 2k minerals and 1k gas. Macroing =/= spending minerals. Macroing = spending resources while doing everything else near perfect. And no, you can't do that unless you're Korean God tier. And please, don't tell me you can't do anything Roger Federer does. OK, maybe you would never hit the ball like him, but your body can do the gesture ; he never runs faster than Usain Bolt, you can move as fast as him for most movements, etc. You CAN do those things, your body is able to do them, but you CANNOT do them in good synchronization or at the same time. And anyway analogies with SC2 are always awkward, I shouldn't have tried  | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On April 07 2015 06:46 Spaylz wrote: You sound like you have a bad case of nostalgia. There is little sense in purposefully making the UI less instinctive or more difficult just to "add to the challenge". It's a pretty archaic way of looking at things, if you ask me. The attention that isn't dedicated to the actions that would be necessary with an unimproved UI is relocated elsewhere and allows for other kinds of plays. I doubt we could just implement the BW UI and call it progress or even see any perk to it. The real skill ceiling has always been your opponents, anyway. Not some arbitrary UI or unit micro stuff. That's always been the beauty of 1v1 RTS games. The game should be as hard as your opponent, and you shouldn't have to fight the UI just to add extra "difficulty". | ||
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suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:07 BillGates wrote: I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. I call bullshit. I don't think you could do half the stuff the pros do. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:07 BillGates wrote: I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. looool ok this post is hilarious to me. Even pro's mess up on their macro. Sorry to say but no you can't do the macro, you can't do what the pro's can do at all. If you are talking making units at all as being able to do it, well you could do the same thing in broodwar so congrats! | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:07 BillGates wrote: I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. That's almost as absurd as saying "I know how to move the pieces, so nothing in chess really impresses me." And no one below masters, maybe high diamond these days, has even mediocre macro. It's not just probes and pylons, it's upgrades and production and "powering" as well which, in high level starcraft, are tightly married to an understanding of timings, strategy, trends/metagame (Which is really just risk assessment and responding to a potential threat before it has materialized). You can't perform all the correct mechanical functions without a certain level of strategic acumen, and you can't execute even the most well thought out strategies without a certain level of mechanical aptitude, because in the big picture they're fused into one fluid process. Saying you can "do the macro" or "do the micro" is like saying "I can swing a tennis racket" or "I can run from one side of a tennis court to the other." I've played tennis exactly once and you know what? I can swing a racket. Does that make me Roger Federer? My guess is that you're actually bad enough at those things that you don't really understand why you lose or how you win. But hey, if you have replays to back yourself up by all means prove me wrong. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:07 BillGates wrote: I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. Unless you provide a replay I'm gonna call bullshit on all of what you're saying. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:13 [PkF] Wire wrote: Doing individual tasks in SC2 is the easiest thing ever. Just keeping the minerals low while doing nothing else is absurdly easy. Don't build probes and add a pylon everytime you hit 100. Beautiful ! That's by the way the reason why a lot of very bad players think they actually have good macro, because they never get past 30 workers since their worker production is so unsteady, and never really get enough money to bath in it. In fact they have awful macro and if they were producing workers regularly as long as they can get away with it and hitting the injects/chronos/mules they would always hover above 2k minerals and 1k gas. Macroing =/= spending minerals. Macroing = spending resources while doing everything else near perfect. And no, you can't do that unless you're Korean God tier. And please, don't tell me you can't do anything Roger Federer does. OK, maybe you would never hit the ball like him, but your body can do the gesture ; he never runs faster than Usain Bolt, you can move as fast as him for most movements, etc. You CAN do those things, your body is able to do them, but you CANNOT do them in good synchronization or at the same time. And anyway analogies with SC2 are always awkward, I shouldn't have tried I'm not sure it's really fair the make a comparaison about federer and SC2... In fact, most of Roger's movements has nothing to do with most of the modern tennis. May I ask you if you're ranked in tennis ? Cauz lemme tell you, 90% (probably more) actually can't do any movements Federer does. Seriously that's stupid. I guess your point is that everybody can run, then sure. But other than that, there's nothing that an average joe can relate to Federer except loving his style :> Edit : Also @billgate : Actually, it was kind of the same feel in the end of bw... It was almost always the same shit, over and over. You're obviously biased. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On April 07 2015 05:59 BillGates wrote: I've lost interest in SC2 past the first two years it was out. I feel like with the "modern" UI and stuff reducing skill a ton compared to BW it was never going to be as fun to play or watch. This new game, with the changes to the economy and everything feels even shittier. I mean every game I watch past the 7-8 minute mark seems to be everyone having 2000-3000 minerals and always being maxed out. How is that fucking fun to play or watch? Its never going to be as fun to watch as SC1 if they don't change the UI, but they'll never will. I mean I can't get excited about a play like casting 5-6 storms or 5-6 fungal growths all over the screen when I know even I can do that. I'm not even that good at the game, but when I can do, what's the excitement about a "pro" player casting it? If everyone can do it, its not that exciting, if at all. I just can't get excited about most of the SC2 plays, because I know I can do the same. Sure I can't beat a high level player, I don't keep up with strategies, with timings, with what's trending and what the best unit composition is, but on a general note I can cast 5-6-7 storms at once, I can "macro" extremely well, I can keep my resources really low all the time, its not a big deal. Where I suck is the tactical battles and stuff, since I play so little. I just think that as long as we have the "modern UI" that keeps the skill ceiling a lot lower compared to BW we can never have a fun watching experience. As long as playing, I know reverting to a more difficult UI will make the game harder to play and we'll see people don't play multiplayer as much, especially the lower level players, and this is the reason Blizzard won't ever make the UI harder. I dunno who you've been watching but I don't think I have even been maxed once so far lol | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On April 07 2015 14:07 cheekymonkey wrote: The most exciting and impressive thing in an sc2 game to me is stellar micro. And not a single (non-pro) person in this thread can even try to measure up to the best of the professionals on that. It's extremely important to realize and very germane that "micro" is not just mouse and keyboard acrobatics. It's a very intentional game action predicated on a tactical assessment which has a lot more to do with game knowledge and momentary analysis than how fast and accurate your fingers are. And micro matters most in asymmetrical situations where the state of the game depends on your performance. Put another way, the fulcrum of a strategy is being played out. Can you pick out the word I'm trying to highlight? When you say you like watching micro (don't we all), you're not saying you can't get enough osu spectating. You're saying you like watching genius battle commanders enact their wills in real time. That is where the awesome is. The crucial point is that you can't have the awesome without a good strategic foundation. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On April 07 2015 05:59 BillGates wrote: I've lost interest in SC2 past the first two years it was out. I feel like with the "modern" UI and stuff reducing skill a ton compared to BW it was never going to be as fun to play or watch. This new game, with the changes to the economy and everything feels even shittier. I mean every game I watch past the 7-8 minute mark seems to be everyone having 2000-3000 minerals and always being maxed out. How is that fucking fun to play or watch? Its never going to be as fun to watch as SC1 if they don't change the UI, but they'll never will. I mean I can't get excited about a play like casting 5-6 storms or 5-6 fungal growths all over the screen when I know even I can do that. I'm not even that good at the game, but when I can do, what's the excitement about a "pro" player casting it? If everyone can do it, its not that exciting, if at all. I just can't get excited about most of the SC2 plays, because I know I can do the same. Sure I can't beat a high level player, I don't keep up with strategies, with timings, with what's trending and what the best unit composition is, but on a general note I can cast 5-6-7 storms at once, I can "macro" extremely well, I can keep my resources really low all the time, its not a big deal. Where I suck is the tactical battles and stuff, since I play so little. I just think that as long as we have the "modern UI" that keeps the skill ceiling a lot lower compared to BW we can never have a fun watching experience. As long as playing, I know reverting to a more difficult UI will make the game harder to play and we'll see people don't play multiplayer as much, especially the lower level players, and this is the reason Blizzard won't ever make the UI harder. You are totally, even absurdly wrong. I see the following options or a combination of following: 1. you are just trolling 2. you are trying to make up arguments to repeat the thousand-times beaten horse that BW for some nostalgic reason or because you are still mad that SC2 took over 3. you are so delusional from your love for BW that you actually believe this 4. you have just absolutely zero idea about SC2 Because otherwise if you have the abilities you believe you have, you should be in WCS Global Premier. The idea that what is holding you back is "not knowing what is trendy" is laughable. If you put Parting in a stasis and wake him up three years into LoTV, you just need to tell him what the knew units so that he can defend them do and he will kill you with the old ones with his mechanics alone, I have zero doubt about it. There is one thing I can agree with you. In BW, some of the "great plays" were superficially easier to see (for me, some of them are harder to see, but that's probably easily improved with a lot of playing/watching). But the gap between Joe Teeeler and a Korean pro is absolutely immense in SC2. A lot of time it's very, very subtle things like positioning, focus fire etc... which looks lame but is extremely difficult to do correctly when you have more than five units. But there are not-so-subtle things, just for the love of whatever deity you may like, go and watch any high-level macro ZvT with mmmm vs. ling-bane. Or even get a replay and watch it on slower speed to see the absurd amount of actions (spliting, focus fire, positioning maraouders, microing small groups of zerg units, medivac control, overseer control, muta control ...) that are happening. I believe you can now even take command and try to see how gloriously you will fail trying to immitate what the pros did. Or if you are lazy, just watch Ro16 of GSL and then of WCS Global. If you have such a great knowledge of the game, you just have to see he unbelievable difference. Those guys who play in WCS are absurdly good and will beat the shit out of a vast majority of players on any day, yet you can see without any doubt how much better is the Korean play compared to that - proving that there is such a huge range of skill that can be shown in SC2. This "reduction of skill" theory has been over and over debunked by pros, but is still ad nauseum repeated by the TL BW fanclub. It seems like a sign of desperation, really. Yes, the "macro" is easier. That means that you just can't be the best in this game by polishing your execution of a braindead sequence of actions to perfection. The things that are difficult at SC2 are actually very complex, not just "a lot of clicks and keypresses" and they evolve quite fast over time as people get better and better, because, unlike "macro", they involve interaction with the opponent - yes, I know BW has a shitload of micro that's insanely diffcult, but that's not where the difference is, it's in the ability to be great based on just macro which just doesn't really exist in SC2. To be at the very top in SC2, you need to constantly improve yourself. I am actually not that surprised that many players from BW are not so happy in SC2, because their robotic perfection of one set of tasks is not so useful here and suddenly they are not the superstars they used to be, but I really don't see this as a problem of SC2. At the end, I can understand that if you liked the aspects of BW that SC2 purposefully does not have, that you like BW more, but what is the point of that here? I can't speak for all the SC2 players, but I am personally very happy that these things have been removed and for me it makes SC2 a much better game. What I don't understand is why you (and that's not just you personally, but the whole BW cohort) need to make up arguments (that do not exist and are based on blatantly wrong arguments or clear lack of understanding of SC2) to constantly berate SC2. Really, I just don't see what is this supposed to accomplish. | ||
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timchen1017
37 Posts
Suppose the UI is messed up, so it needs say 500 APM to place those force fields, or land those storms. According to your argument, now you find the game vastly more enjoyable, because those things are no longer doable by any casual players. But now probably the player that can move his mouse as fast and as accurate as possible will win. Provided that he can type fast, too. If you are interested in those things, I suggest you watching some typing contest instead. Seriously, if you are not interested in any strategy aspects of the game, watch something else. | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
I think that soon it will be a good idea to experiment with some changes. I personally think it could be as simple as reducing the mine-out rate just slightly, like bumping up the 750 mineral patches to 1000 or so. Or maybe reducing the ratio of 750 to 1500 patches. This would be more in line with the idea of rewarding expansions and less of punishing those who don't. Another way to buff one base play is to reduce the starting worker count. Maybe to 9 or 10. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On April 07 2015 07:07 BillGates wrote: I actually can't do ANYTHING Roger Federer does. I don't have his strength, I don't have his flexibility, I don't have his speed, I don't have his stamina, I don't have his precision, I don't have his game sense. In SC2 I CAN do the macro, I can do the micro, what I'm not good at is the timings, strategy, trends, etc... because I don't play a lot, I play little these days. So essentially to compare it to tenis, I can do everything except game sense. Okay, maybe stamina translated to SC2 I can't do either, I'm not very practiced, but you get the point! Unless you are Bronze tier or whatever you can probably do the macro fairly effectively. Best post in the LotV forums so far 5/5. Nice bait too. On April 08 2015 02:04 alexanderzero wrote: I don't think the Blizzard hate is appropriate. Anyone who has played the beta can see that relatively simple tweaks to the economy can take the game in very powerful directions. It takes a real pessimist to think that there isn't an awesome sweet spot waiting to be found. I think that soon it will be a good idea to experiment with some changes. I personally think it could be as simple as reducing the mine-out rate just slightly, like bumping up the 750 mineral patches to 1000 or so. Or maybe reducing the ratio of 750 to 1500 patches. This would be more in line with the idea of rewarding expansions and less of punishing those who don't. Another way to buff one base play is to reduce the starting worker count. Maybe to 9 or 10. Waiting to be found? There have been plenty of ideas about economic changes. That sweet spot has probably been found already, it only needs testing. But only Blizzard have the power to implement large-scale testing, and they won't do that (either because of business decisions or because of sheer arrogance, I don't know and I don't care). I doubt they'll change the economy, and if they do it will very minor changes. I'd love to be proved wrong though. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On April 08 2015 02:27 OtherWorld wrote: Best post in the LotV forums so far 5/5. Nice bait too. Waiting to be found? There have been plenty of ideas about economic changes. That sweet spot has probably been found already, it only needs testing. But only Blizzard have the power to implement large-scale testing, and they won't do that (either because of business decisions or because of sheer arrogance, I don't know and I don't care). I doubt they'll change the economy, and if they do it will very minor changes. I'd love to be proved wrong though. What the literal shit. They already made a giant change to the economy that no one ever dreamed of them doing, and they have already made bold changes to units. Saying they are unwilling to make changes is about the dumbest thing I've heard anyone say about LotV. It's been, like, one fucking week since the beta has been out, so proper feedback and large scale data collection on what works/what doesn't work is only just now happening. I seriously can't believe I just read that lmao | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On April 08 2015 03:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote: What the literal shit. They already made a giant change to the economy that no one ever dreamed of them doing, and they have already made bold changes to units. Saying they are unwilling to make changes is about the dumbest thing I've heard anyone say about LotV. It's been, like, one fucking week since the beta has been out, so proper feedback and large scale data collection on what works/what doesn't work is only just now happening. I seriously can't believe I just read that lmao I'm aware that they did a massive change to the economy ; I'm saying that now that they are going this way, they probably won't change their mind, and they probably won't try other econ systems like reduced efficiency. But as I said, I would be the first to be happy if I was wrong. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 08 2015 03:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote: What the literal shit. They already made a giant change to the economy that no one ever dreamed of them doing, and they have already made bold changes to units. Saying they are unwilling to make changes is about the dumbest thing I've heard anyone say about LotV. It's been, like, one fucking week since the beta has been out, so proper feedback and large scale data collection on what works/what doesn't work is only just now happening. I seriously can't believe I just read that lmao Their economic changes are a joke. We would have had maps with different mineral amounts for a long time had they let us. It's a map change, not even an economic one. Workers mine the exact same amount in the exact same time from the exact same amount of set-in-stone-by-blizzard resource patches. And their unit changes have been anything but bold. The marauder one stands out, besides the SH redesign. The other ones dont touch core units and relations of the game. Where are actually bold changes to crap like forcefields? Why are marines and roaches still massively more costefficient than most other early game units? Where is that change to stalkers to actually make room for a playable adept-role? Why are siegtanks still doing crapdamage vs Protoss? Why is muta/ling still so ridiculously fast denying mapcontrol to other players just with its existance? Changing those things would be bold. Not giving a meaningless lategame unit like the BC a meaningless teleportability. Now you can go ahead and tell me why each and every "issue" i bring up is not an issue. That's fine to me, but preserving everything that we know that it "works" is exactly why I'm blaming blizzard for not being bold with changes to the HotS units. Again, kudos for trying stuff with the marauder and Swarm Host in LotV. Those are actually vold moves because they actually fuck up current strategies, not just supplement them with an extra spell here and there. | ||
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