These are based on the Riot contract database for players who are already signed for 2018. Most contracts end on November 20th, so here we go. It’s the wild offseason!
[url=https://www.facebook.com/sktt1.lol/posts/2058042091096612]Peanut and Sky's contracts not renewed for 2018 by SKT.[/url]
[url=https://twitter.com/sktelecom_t1/status/933976172769054720]SKT re-sign Blank, Faker, Untara, Bang and Wolf. Promote Effort to main squad. Huni, coach cCarter and Rapidstar leave.[/url]
[url=https://www.facebook.com/IMteam/photos/a.183634615052697.46806.183610835055075/1563876620361816/?type=3&theater]Longzhu sign former SKT jungler, Peanut.[/url]
[url=http://www.espn.com.au/esports/story/_/id/21618287/ksv-acquires-samsung-galaxy-league-legends-team]KSV purchases Samsung Galaxy's LoL Roster. New name TBD.[/url]
[url=https://www.facebook.com/TigersLOL/posts/1982052538741448]Shy retires, ROX re-signs rest of their 2017 roster.[/url]
[url=https://twitter.com/ktrolster_tw/status/938324654434816000]KT signs former C9 and IMT jungler, Rush, and rookie mid laner Ucal.[/url]
Team
Top
Jungle
Mid
ADC
Support
SKT
Untara/Thal
Blank/Blossom
Faker
Bang
Wolf/Effort
ROX
Lindarang
SeongHwan/Mightybear
Kuzan/Lava
Sangyoon
Key
KT
Smeb
Score/Rush
PawN/Ucal
Deft
Mata
KSV (Samsung)
CuVee
Ambition/Haru
Crown
Ruler
CoreJJ
Afreeca
Kiin/Summit
Spirit/Mowgli
Kuro/Ruby
Kramer/Aiming
Tusin/Jelly
MVP
ADD
Beyond
Ian
MaHa/Pilot
Max
Jin Air
SoHwan
UmTi
Justice/Grace
Teddy
Wraith
Kingzone Dragon X (Longzhu)
Khan/Rascal
Cuzz/Peanut
BDD
Pray
Gorilla
BBQ
Crazy
Trick/Bono
Tempt
Ghost
Ignar
Kongdoo
Roach
U Jun/Raise
Edge
SSol
Secret
-------
--
--
--
--
--
Kr Free Agents
---
---
Sky
Picaboo
--
--
--
--
Marin
dade
Ares
cry
Roach
Punch
Fly
--
Totoro
Umti
Ssol
Teddy
GuGer
Crazy
Dandy
Tempt
Raise
Bold indicates a new player to the team (u) indicates unconfirmed.
This is going to be the official rumours and off season trades thread for the 2018 season. EU And LCK coming tonight.
Question for everyone. Would you prefer the team roster table be ONLY confirmed news? Or to change it based on credible rumors from good sources like Jacob Wolf? Should those rumor based roster changes also be indicated? Maybe italicised?
Would you prefer the team roster table be ONLY confirmed news?
I would prefer adding a symbol to the side of the player name (like u, unconfirmed), and only if there is rumour of one player for that position. Bold indicates confirmed and locked in, both returning and new, most of us know the original lineups well enough. Obviously only rely on proper credible sources, I don't want someone like Tarzaned trolling with his own rumours.
Holy shit, TL showing us once again that they're funding is bottomless. On the other hand, it might make TSM Zven Mithy possible, which would be an insane team.
Feels weird to see Echo Fox with like 1 decent player while TL keeps signing big names every second day. The gap between top and bottom NA teams is going to be huge.
Ignar, mickey, piglet, impact. That's a lot of slots. I assume Piglet is gone but what about Mickey? Did TL just waste more money getting a player that they just not going to use again? Is Pob going to share time with Mickey? Has he finally decided that's the best option for him since previous times he's been in position to share time he left teams instead.
I really dislike the way TL operates. Feel they one of the prime examples of the massive wastage evident in LCS and Esports(OW/LoL especially).
On the PR front alone signing Dlift is a huge success. Should make them 3rd most popular NA team easily.
Also the development at Schalke looks great so far. They are apparently very serious about their investment, so we will have another solid EU team. On the other hand h2k and UOL seem to be going down. Wondering if h2k will sell altogether.
On November 22 2017 03:50 Redox wrote: On the PR front alone signing Dlift is a huge success. Should make them 3rd most popular NA team easily.
Also the development at Schalke looks great so far. They are apparently very serious about their investment, so we will have another solid EU team. On the other hand h2k and UOL seem to be going down. Wondering if h2k will sell altogether.
Double note on Doublelift, he tweeted the movie poster for Rush Hour 3 a short while ago and Aphromoo is currently exploring free agency.
Looks like Peanut is out and comes as no surprise. SKT's gamble on him def didn't pay off. Also with news about SKT asking Impact to come home, quite possible SKT is looking to replace Top and Jungle at the very least.
Wasn't part of the reason for P1 being awful at the end of the split because Ryu randomly stopped giving a fuck? Doesn't it seem weird to anyone else that he's now not only still playing this split, but picked up for a different team?
On November 22 2017 05:49 NeoIllusions wrote: I thought Akaadian was good/above average, so yes, I'm also surprised EF let him go. I think he was comparable to MikeYeung in all honesty.
Could just be his contract was over and somebody made a better offer.
On November 22 2017 05:49 Sent. wrote: Perhaps EF just continues to not give a fuck, it's clearly a working strategy for that team.
On November 22 2017 05:49 NeoIllusions wrote: I thought Akaadian was good/above average, so yes, I'm also surprised EF let him go. I think he was comparable to MikeYeung in all honesty.
Could just be his contract was over and somebody made a better offer.
I think majority of contracts are up yesterday. I actually haven't read any examples of players still under contract past 11/20. Like even Bjergsen resigned as of yesterday. That said, I'd hope EF tried to match OpTic's offer cause I think Akaadian was the second best player on EF, after Froggen.
On November 22 2017 05:49 NeoIllusions wrote: I thought Akaadian was good/above average, so yes, I'm also surprised EF let him go. I think he was comparable to MikeYeung in all honesty.
Could just be his contract was over and somebody made a better offer.
I think majority of contracts are up yesterday. I actually haven't read any examples of players still under contract past 11/20. Like even Bjergsen resigned as of yesterday. That said, I'd hope EF tried to match OpTic's offer cause I think Akaadian was the second best player on EF, after Froggen.
The article says in contract was only up next year. Honestly have no idea what EF is doing or has been doing for past 2 years. I think they like being awful. Only explanation if they still lose this off season.
If I was a TSM fan, I prob would've preferred Xmithie but this doesn't seem bad either. I def have more faith in a Bot duo that has played multiple splits together vs a fresh rookie. Maybe Mike will continue to impress and actually meet the hype around him.
What surprises me a bit that it is mainly the old orgs that go after the expensive players while the new kids will have to take the table scraps. I thought some of the new teams might be the ones throwing around money.
On November 22 2017 09:06 NeoIllusions wrote: If I was a TSM fan, I prob would've preferred Xmithie but this doesn't seem bad either. I def have more faith in a Bot duo that has played multiple splits together vs a fresh rookie. Maybe Mike will continue to impress and actually meet the hype around him.
Idk I always thought the hype around mike was a meme about how he’s rookie of the split by default.
If you don’t have an import slot for jungle you should have been trying to outbid for xmithie or moon, probably even Akaadian before mike Yeung
On November 22 2017 09:06 NeoIllusions wrote: If I was a TSM fan, I prob would've preferred Xmithie but this doesn't seem bad either. I def have more faith in a Bot duo that has played multiple splits together vs a fresh rookie. Maybe Mike will continue to impress and actually meet the hype around him.
Xmithie might have been a case of IMT saying "if you want him, you have to take some other players too." to try and unload their contracts as easily as possible. I doubt TSM wanted to do that and then have to pass off players to other teams.
On November 22 2017 09:09 Redox wrote: What surprises me a bit that it is mainly the old orgs that go after the expensive players while the new kids will have to take the table scraps. I thought some of the new teams might be the ones throwing around money.
Everybody has money. Nobody is without serious backing except(as far as public knowledge) TSM. I could see players going to the more establish teams as a way to build their brand. Teams like TSM and C9 give you a great chance to get to Worlds, never missing it for as long as their orgs have existed, and all TL does is revive the 4th meme, it's a lot better than a lot of players will accomplish.
Actuality.... I dunno. I feel like they have the parts to make it work, but I don't know if they can get the right fit.
The part that concerns me most is Pawn. The guy looked like he should retire one split and then look like he time traveled from S4 the next. His history of injuries is a constant looming threat and I would have been much happier if KT opened up the bank account and got rookie back - but I know he's probably never returning to Korea until he gets brought in for the military.
I though Mata was going to retire at the end of the year, but that clearly isn't the case and he's been having a lot of fun with the new runes(especially Hex-Flash) on the youtube videos they put out.
Basically, I'm in the show-me state, hoping that the offseason gave the team ample time to reflect on their faults and used it effectively to work on them.
Looking back at TSM again, the article the came out about DL going to TL was that he was traded for, so TSM might be ending up with Xmithie after all.
From an unbiased pov, I agree with you on most counts. Pawn is def KT's weak link. Would be nice if Smeb returned to 2016 form. Deft needs to not just be moderately better than Doublelift with his summoner spells. But overall, another year with the same roster is definitely not a bad thing.
On November 22 2017 12:00 NeoIllusions wrote: From an unbiased pov, I agree with you on most counts. Pawn is def KT's weak link. Would be nice if Smeb returned to 2016 form. Deft needs to not just be moderately better than Doublelift with his summoner spells. But overall, another year with the same roster is definitely not a bad thing.
Pretty much. I was disappointed with Smeb last year too, but have largely chalked that up to new team dynamic as opposed to ROX. KT is very lucky they've been able to keep a hold of Score, because having your weakest lane be mid is a jungler's nightmare.
On November 22 2017 12:03 cLutZ wrote: Don't like the composition because deft is typically a heavy farmer, and peak smeb also was. Top-Bot is a hard style to play in most metas.
On November 22 2017 12:03 cLutZ wrote: Don't like the composition because deft is typically a heavy farmer, and peak smeb also was. Top-Bot is a hard style to play in most metas.
Put Pawn on Lulu Mid, np.
If it ever works like will be nerfed. That has been made clear.
I'm so happy KT is sticking around, they're the best meme team to have ever existed. The old 'Has great potential' sticker has never been used more appropriately. Pawn is weakest link, but I still think he is a good fit for the team. And he only really looks weak because Faker and BDD are godlike while Crown is solid.
Also pleased that the LZ rumours were wrong, would have been a sad way to end the team. It means that next season we get to see another battle royale between the big 4, hopefully SKT gets it together.
On November 22 2017 22:23 AdsMoFro wrote: Let's just say people in esports aren't very good at keeping secrets. Reignover was said to be on 1mil last season.
On November 22 2017 22:23 AdsMoFro wrote: Let's just say people in esports aren't very good at keeping secrets. Reignover was said to be on 1mil last season.
wasn't it actually only $300k?
I've read that that was the buyout on his contract.
Wonder what will happen to Biofrost, I thought he was a pretty decent rookie. If TSM is bringing in a bot lane, there's 0 room for him, but I can't see another team picking him up either.
Did someone buy Froggen or does EF actually think FexiX is better than him? Froggen is super solid, he just needs a proper shotcalling team to get him moving.
Maybw efx is looking for next year where fenix becomes a resident.
Also fuck yes I love this tl roster. Tsm's is still prob better but huge upgrades this year plus I actually like every single player personally. First time thats been the case as a tl fan. Gonna enjoy this season.
Looks like this all but confirms Zven/Mithy to TSM as a thing. Also if the 100 thieves rumors are true they're going to need an NA bot lane. Cody Sun, Keith, Lod and Altec are the NA bot laners that don't have a potential home from last split, assuming all of the rumors have been true thus far.
EDIT: I assume one of the teams is going to pick up the Altec/Adrian bot lane so they can import elsewhere
Worried that the news teams who don't have a history in league (or at all in the case of CCG and Guardians) are just going to buy a bunch of players that they've been told are good without thinking about things like communication.
In traditional sports you don't have to worry about your players being in constant communication like esports. Don't know if they'll be able to build an effective roster when they're just picking up players where they can, grabing Koreans when they come up.
Honestly, with how much talent is being imported to NA, it would be sad if they didn't have a good year in international tournaments. At the very least they should stomp EU, there's no excuse.
On November 23 2017 17:13 DarkCore wrote: Honestly, with how much talent is being imported to NA, it would be sad if they didn't have a good year in international tournaments. At the very least they should stomp EU, there's no excuse.
It is overall basically the same players as last year though, just reshuffled among the teams. And with that reshuffling many players got even higher salaries. Where there any new imports other than Mithy/Zven reported so far?
On November 23 2017 17:13 DarkCore wrote: Honestly, with how much talent is being imported to NA, it would be sad if they didn't have a good year in international tournaments. At the very least they should stomp EU, there's no excuse.
It is overall basically the same players as last year though, just reshuffled among the teams. And with that reshuffling many players got even higher salaries. Where there any new imports other than Mithy/Zven reported so far?
That's my impression so I was a bit confused. The only team bringing in new players seem to be C9 but those are from NA. Don't really see any "new" teams forming that are any better than previous years. Just feels like big reshuffling with some teams possibly even worse off(EF)
On November 23 2017 17:13 DarkCore wrote: Honestly, with how much talent is being imported to NA, it would be sad if they didn't have a good year in international tournaments. At the very least they should stomp EU, there's no excuse.
It is overall basically the same players as last year though, just reshuffled among the teams. And with that reshuffling many players got even higher salaries. Where there any new imports other than Mithy/Zven reported so far?
That's my impression so I was a bit confused. The only team bringing in new players seem to be C9 but those are from NA. Don't really see any "new" teams forming that are any better than previous years. Just feels like big reshuffling with some teams possibly even worse off(EF)
The problem is right now only the high profile players are getting picked up because, obviously, that's who teams will go after first. So right now it's just big names.
KR isn't paying as well as NA, but they're paying well enough for most of the big names to stay together. Also, with Worlds semi-crowd funded now, winning Worlds is a way bigger incentive which, let's be real, won't happen if you're playing in NA.
The massive NA salaries are going to players who are close to becoming residents via the 4-year rule. I'm just waiting for players to get NA residency via Green cards. Which team is gonna set up some Koreans with Americans to get married and farm an ez 5 Korean team?
On November 23 2017 23:05 AdsMoFro wrote: KR isn't paying as well as NA, but they're paying well enough for most of the big names to stay together. Also, with Worlds semi-crowd funded now, winning Worlds is a way bigger incentive which, let's be real, won't happen if you're playing in NA.
The massive NA salaries are going to players who are close to becoming residents via the 4-year rule. I'm just waiting for players to get NA residency via Green cards. Which team is gonna set up some Koreans with Americans to get married and farm an ez 5 Korean team?
I read that Bjergsen has applied for a green card, don't know if there's any validity to it.
There's also the incentive for teams to continue to re-up KR imports instead of finding new ones. They can talk to other people about how they are as a player in NA and carry over their knowledge of English instead of possibly having to start from ground 0 with a new one.
Also, with Worlds semi-crowd funded now, winning Worlds is a way bigger incentive which, let's be real, won't happen if you're playing in NA.
While true, you also have to consider that there are only like half a dozen teams who have realistic chances of winning or even making it through to the later stages of Worlds, where the real prizes sit. So in a way, there is actually a big salary difference between the top 4 KR teams and everyone else, no surprise they see very little shuffling about.
TSM says Sven is still contracted under TSM and more news will be released later. So probably Sven just getting moved to the academy team? I actually like a rotation of Sven and MY on TSM, you have Sven as a more tanky jungler and MY as a carry/play making jungler.
On November 24 2017 09:31 FlaShFTW wrote: TSM says Sven is still contracted under TSM and more news will be released later. So probably Sven just getting moved to the academy team? I actually like a rotation of Sven and MY on TSM, you have Sven as a more tanky jungler and MY as a carry/play making jungler.
Sven wouldn't be able to rotate in cause TSM's Bot is already double import. Even Rallez is EU import.
All this talent being haphazardly thrown together, especially for the new teams. I wonder which staffs will be able to get their teams to work and which just completely fall flat.
On November 23 2017 12:07 Cowley wrote: In traditional sports you don't have to worry about your players being in constant communication like esports. Don't know if they'll be able to build an effective roster when they're just picking up players where they can, grabing Koreans when they come up.
Uh...what? Sure players in team sports don't have headsets to talk to each other in real time, but to say you don't worry about communicating effectively...
That Mike Yeung has a team before Moon after last season is interesting to me. Ppl must think he has a lot of potential, but the way flyquest worked off of moon and hai teaming up could have gone great with Bjerg
On November 24 2017 09:31 FlaShFTW wrote: TSM says Sven is still contracted under TSM and more news will be released later. So probably Sven just getting moved to the academy team? I actually like a rotation of Sven and MY on TSM, you have Sven as a more tanky jungler and MY as a carry/play making jungler.
Regi confirmed on Reddit that Sven has already been transfered to another team that he's happy with.
For gits and shigs, TSM could use a foreign jungler, they'd just have to swap out Mithy for Biofrost(who as of now is still on the team).
On November 24 2017 09:31 FlaShFTW wrote: TSM says Sven is still contracted under TSM and more news will be released later. So probably Sven just getting moved to the academy team? I actually like a rotation of Sven and MY on TSM, you have Sven as a more tanky jungler and MY as a carry/play making jungler.
Regi confirmed on Reddit that Sven has already been transfered to another team that he's happy with.
For gits and shigs, TSM could use a foreign jungler, they'd just have to swap out Mithy for Biofrost(who as of now is still on the team).
he might be trolling and it could be to just the TSM academy team but yeah most likely he's gone. i dont think TSM is going to use an import jungler. they want the double import bot lane. if zven mithy is true that is. I hope biofrost gets a spot on another team, maybe 100 thieves. hes too good not to start right now as support.
im still sitting here F5ing reddit and liquidlegends for when TL makes the doublelift announcement
On November 24 2017 09:31 FlaShFTW wrote: TSM says Sven is still contracted under TSM and more news will be released later. So probably Sven just getting moved to the academy team? I actually like a rotation of Sven and MY on TSM, you have Sven as a more tanky jungler and MY as a carry/play making jungler.
Regi confirmed on Reddit that Sven has already been transfered to another team that he's happy with.
For gits and shigs, TSM could use a foreign jungler, they'd just have to swap out Mithy for Biofrost(who as of now is still on the team).
he might be trolling and it could be to just the TSM academy team but yeah most likely he's gone. i dont think TSM is going to use an import jungler. they want the double import bot lane. if zven mithy is true that is. I hope biofrost gets a spot on another team, maybe 100 thieves. hes too good not to start right now as support.
im still sitting here F5ing reddit and liquidlegends for when TL makes the doublelift announcement
Neat, I didn't know you visited out slice of the hood every now and then.
I've read theories on reddit that Bio could be staying on TSM because Mithy might be looking to retire soon and Zven in an interview, when asked who he'd want to support him outside of Mithy from the West, answered Bio. But I fully agree, being on an academy team is not worth Bio's time.
Damn, Huni being transferred and Peanut not in the list makes the SKT Worlds lineup look like a big mistake. Also interesting they are keeping Bang, I guess they think they can beat him back into former shape.
Thought Kkoma was already the head coach, since he's the only one you hear about in the west.
CCG roster is... interesting. I dimly remember Solo being toxic asf in soloQ, haven't seen him on any streams recently though. And I've never been a big fan of Febi outside of his rookie times, I always viewed as being a bit of an asshole.
On November 24 2017 19:05 DarkCore wrote: Damn, Huni being transferred and Peanut not in the list makes the SKT Worlds lineup look like a big mistake. Also interesting they are keeping Bang, I guess they think they can beat him back into former shape.
Thought Kkoma was already the head coach, since he's the only one you hear about in the west.
CCG roster is... interesting. I dimly remember Solo being toxic asf in soloQ, haven't seen him on any streams recently though. And I've never been a big fan of Febi outside of his rookie times, I always viewed as being a bit of an asshole.
Some outdated info now, but still relevant for the most part.
On November 24 2017 20:04 Frolossus wrote: i think tsm is gonna screw up mike yeungs carrier.
why do they keep getting carry junglers forced into supporty roles for bjerg
Who knows what TSM is going to play like. This will be the first year that they've had a proper coach in Ssong since Loco where the roster isn't held back by clearly obsolete players like Dyrus. Parth's bee stuck as their strategic coach for the last 3 years and that really isn't his strength.
And EU LCS is going to be even more who cares with all the players leaving.
On November 24 2017 19:05 DarkCore wrote: Damn, Huni being transferred and Peanut not in the list makes the SKT Worlds lineup look like a big mistake. Also interesting they are keeping Bang, I guess they think they can beat him back into former shape.
Thought Kkoma was already the head coach, since he's the only one you hear about in the west.
CCG roster is... interesting. I dimly remember Solo being toxic asf in soloQ, haven't seen him on any streams recently though. And I've never been a big fan of Febi outside of his rookie times, I always viewed as being a bit of an asshole.
SKT worlds lineup looked like a big mistake before they even went to wolrds considering they barely played in Summer and when they did it was bad.
Yeah, bot lane seemed the weakest link, I feel bad for Huni unless another team made the offer for him.
It's sad seeing Bang play poorly, but imo this is probably because bot lane is quite stacked, there are no real weak lanes in the LCK right now. LZ, KT and SSG all have legendary duos themselves, my hope is that one day Imp and Piglet will return and then we can see players from every era duke it out to see who is truly the best.
This will be the first year that they've had a proper coach in Ssong since Loco where the roster isn't held back by clearly obsolete players like Dyrus
That's honestly quite sad, TSM has been around forever but they have the same excuse every time, 'we have some very clear weak links in the roster'.
On November 25 2017 03:22 DarkCore wrote: Yeah, bot lane seemed the weakest link, I feel bad for Huni unless another team made the offer for him.
It's sad seeing Bang play poorly, but imo this is probably because bot lane is quite stacked, there are no real weak lanes in the LCK right now. LZ, KT and SSG all have legendary duos themselves, my hope is that one day Imp and Piglet will return and then we can see players from every era duke it out to see who is truly the best.
This will be the first year that they've had a proper coach in Ssong since Loco where the roster isn't held back by clearly obsolete players like Dyrus
That's honestly quite sad, TSM has been around forever but they have the same excuse every time, 'we have some very clear weak links in the roster'.
Is it ever wrong though? Was Dyrus a passable international top lane in S3/4/5? Was Parth ever cut out to be a strategic or head coach?
SKT re-sign Faker, Blank, Bang, Wolf and Untara. In addition, effort has been promoted from the practice squad to the main squad.
Huni is being transferred to another team. Coach Ccarter and rapidstar are stepping down. Coach Kkoma will be the head coach now.
Kicking the ball back to you Neo. How do you feel about this?
I think DarkCore covered me well. I look at this 2018 lineup and wonder why this wasn't the final lineup during 2017. I completely understand that kkoma is a flexible (I don't want to go as far as calling him experimental) coach but if the results speak for themselves, the 2017 Worlds lineup was clearly a mistake if both Top and Jungle starters are getting cut. Unlike KT, they don't even want to give it another year cause there are clearly areas where there were failings (e.g. Peanut unable to transform into the type of Jungle SKT needs, Huni without the mental fortitude, etc).
Untara's LCK playoffs shortcomings is understandable, he has pro experience but he's still relatively new to the SKT roster. I liken him to Ruler tbh and I hope to see Untara land somewhere consistently above par or better. This is the second year I was hoping for SKT ssumday but I have no qualms about Untara being SKT's full time Top.
My biggest concern remains to be Bang. Compared to Untara, when Untara fails, you can wave it off as lack of experience. Bang is coming off his worst streak ever and that's not something you want to see from your three year veteran. My hope is that he can become reliable again and just not cost his team games, or worse, series.
Ahahaha 5th split in a row they won't make playoffs. Wonder how long it's gonna take Riot till they realize how conned they are by Rick Fox.
That roster isn't that bad on paper. Huni is a solid top laner, dardoch is a good jungler, altec/adrian is one of the better bot lanes in NA. I don't see what gives the impression this team doesn't stand a chance at play offs. Even if we're assuming TSM/C9/CLG all get in based on their on paper rosters
On November 25 2017 07:50 Slusher wrote: I mean I like this roster but I think there were superior options to Mike Yeung. (probably won't matter localy)
What other NA jungler that was available would you go with outside of Xmithie?
Idk, I think Mike is a good pickup, he's obviously very talented, and TSM can shape him into a strong jungler. I'm just glad Sven is finally gone, I've never been impressed with his performance. Sucks for Bio though, he's good home grown NA talent, something you don't see much of .
On November 25 2017 07:50 Slusher wrote: I mean I like this roster but I think there were superior options to Mike Yeung. (probably won't matter localy)
What other NA jungler that was available would you go with outside of Xmithie?
Huh I thought Froggen might be the mid import for FQ. Still wondering where he will end up. I think all NA LCS mid starters are known by know, so maybe he will go to EU? Can not imagine him to retire.
Also cant imagine he got no offers at all. He should surely be rated higher than Hai or Fly.
On November 25 2017 07:50 Slusher wrote: I mean I like this roster but I think there were superior options to Mike Yeung. (probably won't matter localy)
What other NA jungler that was available would you go with outside of Xmithie?
Consider all of the NA junglers that moved teams this split Contractz, Dardoch, Xmithe, Akaadian, Moon, Mike Yeung, Meteos, and Inori
of that whole list, Mike Yeung is definitely in the bottom half of players that I'd want to pick on my ideal western team. Hell I'd probably pick almost all of them above him except Inori. Dardoch gets a special mention because I think in terms of skill he'd be one of the better ones but I understand why a TSM wouldn't want to gamble on him as a person. If Contractz and Xmithe were open (well Xmithe had to) to changing teams TSM should have done everything they possibly could to get them. Which, without knowing about the behind the scenes things they definitely could have. It just seems like a weird choice to get together one of the best western teams ever and go with Mike Yeung as your NA jungler
On November 25 2017 08:53 Ansibled wrote: Importing an EU botlane seems like a massive waste.
Not when said botlane is the best botlane outside of Korea by a mile
Ahahaha 5th split in a row they won't make playoffs. Wonder how long it's gonna take Riot till they realize how conned they are by Rick Fox.
I don't understand your logic. There will be teams missing the playoffs every year, there is in every thing franchised. Do you think that If immortals had made it instead of EF one less team would miss the playoffs?
If EF goes bankrupt in 1 year or something sure they made a mistake in letting them in. But how teams should be measured is Can they create revenue and be sustainable. Performance will obviously help with this because success will lead to sponsorship in theory at least.
Someone is going to miss the playoffs heck a few someones are so if EF does how is that a bad decision by riot? OR how did Rick Fox con them. Do you think his presentation to get franchised was all about how EF was gonna win the next split?
What is so confusing is your position is what lots of people think and it makes no sense. The Redskins have missed the playoffs tons, but they are a huge money generator for the league, you think the NFL is made about that? Seattle didn't lose there team in the NBA because they were bad, heck they were bad the year they left but they were about to get Durrant, they left because of the Arena deal they had. Performance in the Standings is not what riot is going to grade to the franchises on.
I don't understand how EF doesn't have more anti-fans when they do jack shit to try and actually do something. They were like pre-regulation DIG, just treading water to pick up LCS paychecks. Their rosters were shit and this one doesn't look much better. I want to see franchises that at least make an effort to be competitive. I've never seen that from Echo Fox.
I have to agree. The reason to keep EF cannot have been made because of anything that was public at the time. Their history is basically as a troll team. We unless their pitch to riot was, "Troll team with a fox logo", idk how they didn't lie to riot in order to secure the bid.
On November 25 2017 10:23 AdsMoFro wrote: How is that their history lol? How many teams other than TSM, C9 and CLG have ACTUALLY been relevant? A bunch of CHinese dudes and IMT.
So basically, you can say every other team is a troll team.
I'm putting the bar as low as making the playoffs once in at least 2 years. Literally every other team in 2017 Summer managed to accomplish that.
On November 25 2017 10:23 AdsMoFro wrote: How is that their history lol? How many teams other than TSM, C9 and CLG have ACTUALLY been relevant? A bunch of CHinese dudes and IMT.
So basically, you can say every other team is a troll team.
I'm putting the bar as low as making the playoffs once in at least 2 years. Literally every other team in 2017 Summer managed to accomplish that.
Your saying that as if the low bar is positive for EF. There are, however, three teams in the bottom four of NA LCS summer 2017 that have one or less participations in play-off. Choosing a higher bar makes your point fall apart that EF is the odd one out.
I'm not disagreeing they're a meme/troll team, but this isn't a good metric. NA is about as close as you can get to a meme region as far as I'm concerned, for me determined by a comparison of expectations and results at international events.
The difference with franchising in NBA/NFL is that they have drafting. The worst teams pick up the best prospects. If you're a shit team in LCS, no one is going to want to join your team and then you'll literally just be a waste of space, and any matches played vs you will be a waste of time.
On November 25 2017 10:23 AdsMoFro wrote: How is that their history lol? How many teams other than TSM, C9 and CLG have ACTUALLY been relevant? A bunch of CHinese dudes and IMT.
So basically, you can say every other team is a troll team.
I'm putting the bar as low as making the playoffs once in at least 2 years. Literally every other team in 2017 Summer managed to accomplish that.
Your saying that as if the low bar is positive for EF. There are, however, three teams in the bottom four of NA LCS summer 2017 that have one or less participations in play-off. Choosing a higher bar makes your point fall apart that EF is the odd one out.
I'm not disagreeing they're a meme/troll team, but this isn't a good metric. NA is about as close as you can get to a meme region as far as I'm concerned, for me determined by a comparison of expectations and results at international events.
You're not getting my point. I'm not saying the other teams are constantly in contention. I don't even ask them to be a serious contender for the cup. I'm asking them to be at least mediocre once. Echo Fox has tried and failed at that 4 times. All the other orgs didn't.
Can people who watched significant number of games of Zven inform me of his strengths as a player that elevates him above all other Western AD carries in some people's eyes? He seems to be pretty well rounded, but I personally don't see a superlative mechanical potency from him, by being oppressive during the laning phase a-la in form FORG1VEN, or insane ability to eke out every last auto-attack and ability while dodging enemy skill-shots.
Is he a play-making AD carrry like PraY, or possess great positioning during team fights like Ruler? I'm struggling to put him under any specific category from the limited games I've seen from him.
- Zven has very good mechanics, if you watched his stream you would know that's true. I've seen him dance around a Heca running right at him with Kalista while staying out of range of other champs, that requires some pretty damn high APM and good precision. He doesn't make many mechanical mistakes. He doesn't possess insane skill like Uzi or Deft, but that's a pretty high bar to set to acknowledge someone.
- He has great knowledge of the game. Again, if you watched his stream, where he talks about where the jungler might be, and what he can/can't do, it's great insight. Sometimes he does become a little whiny bitch, but I guess every ADC is like that when you're role is dependent on being protected by the team.
- No champion pool limitations, Zven plays pretty much everything. Sure, he won't pull out the pocket Draven pick, but he is comfortable with pretty much every ADC.
- Overall a well rounded player, above average in most areas. Zven doesn't play passive, but also doesn't go super aggro unless he sees a chance. He makes plays, is a solid laner and a good team fighter. Also, he doesn't tilt and is a true professional, I can't remember any incidents involving him.
He's no Pray/Uzi/Ruler/Deft, but I do believe he builds a solid case for best ADC in the West atm. His power is in being all rounded, kind of like old Bang, by making no mistakes while pushing the limit to how much damage you can do.
His stream is https://www.twitch.tv/zvanillan if you're interested, although sadly like the rest of EU, he doesn't stream often, and his videos get deleted after a month or so. Might change now that he's moved to TSM.
On November 26 2017 01:42 DarkCore wrote: - Zven has very good mechanics, if you watched his stream you would know that's true. I've seen him dance around a Heca running right at him with Kalista while staying out of range of other champs, that requires some pretty damn high APM and good precision. He doesn't make many mechanical mistakes. He doesn't possess insane skill like Uzi or Deft, but that's a pretty high bar to set to acknowledge someone.
- He has great knowledge of the game. Again, if you watched his stream, where he talks about where the jungler might be, and what he can/can't do, it's great insight. Sometimes he does become a little whiny bitch, but I guess every ADC is like that when you're role is dependent on being protected by the team.
- No champion pool limitations, Zven plays pretty much everything. Sure, he won't pull out the pocket Draven pick, but he is comfortable with pretty much every ADC.
- Overall a well rounded player, above average in most areas. Zven doesn't play passive, but also doesn't go super aggro unless he sees a chance. He makes plays, is a solid laner and a good team fighter. Also, he doesn't tilt and is a true professional, I can't remember any incidents involving him.
He's no Pray/Uzi/Ruler/Deft, but I do believe he builds a solid case for best ADC in the West atm. His power is in being all rounded, kind of like old Bang, by making no mistakes while pushing the limit to how much damage you can do.
His stream is https://www.twitch.tv/zvanillan if you're interested, although sadly like the rest of EU, he doesn't stream often, and his videos get deleted after a month or so. Might change now that he's moved to TSM.
I'm not even comparing him to non-Western players, for example, I thought Misfits Gaming in general had excellent individual abilities in general, and I thought even Hans Sama outperformed Zven at the Season 7 World Championship, athough I have no idea how their performances compared for the rest of the season. While I thought PerkZ's performance was quite stellar, I thought Zven's lack of raw individual prowess was one of the reasons for why G2 Esports failed to make to make it out of the group stage.
That being said, looking ordinary next to Ruler or Uzi certainly is no sin, but compared to his stellar Season 5 performance where he truly looked world-class, I think Zven's damage dealing ability during team fights at the most recent international tournament left a lot to be desired. He still may be the best Western AD carry overall, but would you say he is the best Western AD carry from a sheer mechanical perspective? Is he overwhelmingly superior in terms of mechanics compared to Hans Sama, for example?
On November 26 2017 01:42 DarkCore wrote: - Zven has very good mechanics, if you watched his stream you would know that's true. I've seen him dance around a Heca running right at him with Kalista while staying out of range of other champs, that requires some pretty damn high APM and good precision. He doesn't make many mechanical mistakes. He doesn't possess insane skill like Uzi or Deft, but that's a pretty high bar to set to acknowledge someone.
- He has great knowledge of the game. Again, if you watched his stream, where he talks about where the jungler might be, and what he can/can't do, it's great insight. Sometimes he does become a little whiny bitch, but I guess every ADC is like that when you're role is dependent on being protected by the team.
- No champion pool limitations, Zven plays pretty much everything. Sure, he won't pull out the pocket Draven pick, but he is comfortable with pretty much every ADC.
- Overall a well rounded player, above average in most areas. Zven doesn't play passive, but also doesn't go super aggro unless he sees a chance. He makes plays, is a solid laner and a good team fighter. Also, he doesn't tilt and is a true professional, I can't remember any incidents involving him.
He's no Pray/Uzi/Ruler/Deft, but I do believe he builds a solid case for best ADC in the West atm. His power is in being all rounded, kind of like old Bang, by making no mistakes while pushing the limit to how much damage you can do.
His stream is https://www.twitch.tv/zvanillan if you're interested, although sadly like the rest of EU, he doesn't stream often, and his videos get deleted after a month or so. Might change now that he's moved to TSM.
I'm not even comparing him to non-Western players, for example, I thought Misfits Gaming in general had excellent individual abilities in general, and I thought even Hans Sama outperformed Zven at the Season 7 World Championship, athough I have no idea how their performances compared for the rest of the season. While I thought PerkZ's performance was quite stellar, I thought Zven's lack of raw individual prowess was one of the reasons for why G2 Esports failed to make to make it out of the group stage.
That being said, looking ordinary next to Ruler or Uzi certainly is no sin, but compared to his stellar Season 5 performance where he truly looked world-class, I think Zven's damage dealing ability during team fights at the most recent international tournament left a lot to be desired. He still may be the best Western AD carry overall, but would you say he is the best Western AD carry from a sheer mechanical perspective? Is he overwhelmingly superior in terms of mechanics compared to Hans Sama, for example?
Hans and the rest of Misfits overperformed at Worlds.
He still may be the best Western AD carry overall, but would you say he is the best Western AD carry from a sheer mechanical perspective? Is he overwhelmingly superior in terms of mechanics compared to Hans Sama, for example?
Well no, Forg1ven takes that spot, and Hans is currently most mechanically gifted LCS player. But mechanics isn't everything, even if I value it pretty high myself. And Zven's mechanics are still very good, better than 75% of pro players if not higher.
And yeah, Misfits overperformed in comparison to how they played the year before. But who knows, maybe they will surprise us this year now that G2 is gone, and take rank 1 in EU. Wouldn't be too surprising tbh.
On November 26 2017 00:10 Letmelose wrote: Can people who watched significant number of games of Zven inform me of his strengths as a player that elevates him above all other Western AD carries in some people's eyes? He seems to be pretty well rounded, but I personally don't see a superlative mechanical potency from him, by being oppressive during the laning phase a-la in form FORG1VEN, or insane ability to eke out every last auto-attack and ability while dodging enemy skill-shots.
Is he a play-making AD carrry like PraY, or possess great positioning during team fights like Ruler? I'm struggling to put him under any specific category from the limited games I've seen from him.
zven is mostly known for his teamfighting and always being relevant
even if his lane gets camped to death he still manages to survive with minimal deaths and good cs
he's highly coveted for those 2 things alone though like darkcore said, he is skilled in other aspects too
Though I would say he never came off as a playmaker or being lane oppressive or anything like that. Great player though.
rush was made for streaming lol, funny personality and an exciting to watch playstyle
On November 26 2017 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote: As of last season, I would still prefer Zven over Hans Sama.
Zven doesn't have the artificial boost of playing against potato Bang in a BO5 recently. Pretty sure that botlane could make anyone look really good at worlds.
On November 26 2017 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote: As of last season, I would still prefer Zven over Hans Sama.
Zven doesn't have the artificial boost of playing against potato Bang in a BO5 recently. Pretty sure that botlane could make anyone look really good at worlds.
He still may be the best Western AD carry overall, but would you say he is the best Western AD carry from a sheer mechanical perspective? Is he overwhelmingly superior in terms of mechanics compared to Hans Sama, for example?
Well no, Forg1ven takes that spot, and Hans is currently most mechanically gifted LCS player. But mechanics isn't everything, even if I value it pretty high myself. And Zven's mechanics are still very good, better than 75% of pro players if not higher.
And yeah, Misfits overperformed in comparison to how they played the year before. But who knows, maybe they will surprise us this year now that G2 is gone, and take rank 1 in EU. Wouldn't be too surprising tbh.
They have to replace at least PoE and Ignar first.
On November 26 2017 07:52 DarkCore wrote: Idk, I like PoE. Maybe bc he's German
Who can stand up to this current MSF iteration now that G2 is gone? Fnatic? H2K? Honestly don't see it.
PoE is gone, he wasn't calling PoE bad, PoE is in NA now.
In terms of EU crown it should just be Fnatic's for the taking. Almost the exact same roster but a support that is a huge upgrade of Jesiz
Who knows in EU. At least by this thread's chart, tons of teams are completely unknown.
I mean sure one of those random teams could be a collection of 5 players that take Europe by storm, but my bet is on nearly the same Fnatic line up that made the round of 8 at worlds and then upgraded over whatever random 5 stack forms this split.
On November 26 2017 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote: As of last season, I would still prefer Zven over Hans Sama.
Zven doesn't have the artificial boost of playing against potato Bang in a BO5 recently. Pretty sure that botlane could make anyone look really good at worlds.
On November 26 2017 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote: As of last season, I would still prefer Zven over Hans Sama.
Zven doesn't have the artificial boost of playing against potato Bang in a BO5 recently. Pretty sure that botlane could make anyone look really good at worlds.
i dont think hans sama even looked better than zven given that lol
hans sama generally seemed mediocre to me
then again sneaky was heralded as some NA adc hero this past worlds when I think he performed mediocre as well.
On November 26 2017 00:10 Letmelose wrote: Can people who watched significant number of games of Zven inform me of his strengths as a player that elevates him above all other Western AD carries in some people's eyes? He seems to be pretty well rounded, but I personally don't see a superlative mechanical potency from him, by being oppressive during the laning phase a-la in form FORG1VEN, or insane ability to eke out every last auto-attack and ability while dodging enemy skill-shots.
Is he a play-making AD carrry like PraY, or possess great positioning during team fights like Ruler? I'm struggling to put him under any specific category from the limited games I've seen from him.
zven is mostly known for his teamfighting and always being relevant
even if his lane gets camped to death he still manages to survive with minimal deaths and good cs
he's highly coveted for those 2 things alone though like darkcore said, he is skilled in other aspects too
Though I would say he never came off as a playmaker or being lane oppressive or anything like that. Great player though.
rush was made for streaming lol, funny personality and an exciting to watch playstyle
It wasn't just the oppressive nature of his opponents that made Zven look far from stellar in my eyes, his ability to weave in auto-attacks really seemed off in general. Even his game versus by far the weakest team in the group (1907 Fenerbahçe Esports), positioning within the safety of his turret, Zven's lack of ability to eke out every single auto-attack leads me to ponder if his team fighting alone can really elevate him to the status of the best Western AD carry.
Hans Sama may have inferior positioning, but I think Zven's most recent demonstration of his kiting ability alone leads me to have questions about team fighting being Zven's most definitive strength. A superlative team prowess that elevates a player to a highly coveted status requires both positioning awareness and efficient auto-attack weaving capabilities, in my opinion.
Zven is an established quality without huge flaws (FORG1VEN on utility based AD carries being a huge liability, as an example), but I was asking if Zven had any truly outstanding qualities that distinguished him from other Western AD carries, not how well rounded he was, which I am already in agreement with.
One thing that is mentioned often seems to be his intelligence. Is he a cerebral AD carry in the mold of PraY? Does Zven orchestrate the plays on the map with utility-heavy AD carries, and dictate the tempo of the match that way? If Zven is more like Bang during his prime (who relied on superlative positioning to shine during team fights, rather than using his raw weaving mechanics like Deft), do is it mean that Zven has the best positioning out of any Western AD carries by some distance? I'm not asking about the overall worth of a player here, I'm trying to place Zven under a certain category.
Since you're so incredibly interested in Zven and what makes him great, to the point of writing big posts, why don't you just go and watch some of his games not from Worlds, and build your own opinion. You're asking people to do research and basically backup their claims so that you can understand their viewpoint, which honestly I just don't have the time or interest in doing.
I just realized that none of the teams are looking for starting junglers (if all the reports are to be believed) and Moon isn't on a team yet. I hope its because he chose to take a break and not because no team wanted him, he was way too good last season to not be on some starting team. Furthermore only two teams need supports left and Bio and Aphro don't have teams either.
Unless CLG is about to sign some big foreign names, it looks like the team is about to crash like UoL in Europe. Which is weird, I thought they got nice sponsors and all that stuff.
On November 27 2017 07:41 Sent. wrote: Unless CLG is about to sign some big foreign names, it looks like the team is about to crash like UoL in Europe. Which is weird, I thought they got nice sponsors and all that stuff.
If CLG Reignover is legit, they have no free import slots.
Guess I overreacted, this CLG doesn't look bad. Should be a solid middle of the pack team with the potential to upset the top contenders.
Unless Reignover really got bad during his time in TL and Biofrost without Doublelift's "guidance" is just a wardbot. In that case the team should crash and burn.
On November 27 2017 08:55 Sent. wrote: Guess I overreacted, this CLG doesn't look bad. Should be a solid middle of the pack team with the potential to upset the top contenders.
Unless Reignover really got bad during his time in TL and Biofrost without Doublelift's "guidance" is just a wardbot. In that case the team should crash and burn.
Bio shouldn't be bad. He was still a quality support when he had Turtle.
Not bad imo. Surprising Odo is going to Splyce and not G2. Makes me wonder if G2 preferred Wunder over Odo or if Odo preferred Splyce over G2. Also is there anyone left in UoL?
Nisqy was a prime candidate for Vitality for me. As he is not going there, maybe Vitality got Froggen?
Are import slots really that valuable? Is the average replacement import player that much better than the average replacement domestic player?
Sure, by getting Sven you deny yourself the possibility of getting Faker as an import. But realistically, it probably just denies you from signing Seraph or some shit.
On November 28 2017 05:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: Are import slots really that valuable? Is the average replacement import player that much better than the average replacement domestic player?
Sure, by getting Sven you deny yourself the possibility of getting Faker as an import. But realistically, it probably just denies you from signing Seraph or some shit.
I mean for C9 it kind of is. Moon + import top sounds better than NA top + Sven
On November 28 2017 05:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: Are import slots really that valuable? Is the average replacement import player that much better than the average replacement domestic player?
Sure, by getting Sven you deny yourself the possibility of getting Faker as an import. But realistically, it probably just denies you from signing Seraph or some shit.
Depends on what spot you're importing. NA has bad mids so people started importing. Now there's too many good imports so players are switching from mid. Using an import on a position like support, which has a good talent pool, is pretty stupid unless they're exceptional and your roster already has some solid pieces in it.
Import slots are flexibility as well as upside. This is why, even though people like the Sven-Mithy bothlane, importing the duo is dangerous. It means if Bjerg, Hauntzer, or Mikeyeung get hurt or go into the tank you are going to have to get an NA player to fill in.
On C9 they have Sven/Jensen as imports, thus are basically locked into Licorice, Sneaky, & Smoothie. If Licorice sucks, Ray can't sub in. Top talent in NA is pretty rough, so that is a tough place to be.
On November 28 2017 05:21 cLutZ wrote: Import slots are flexibility as well as upside. This is why, even though people like the Sven-Mithy bothlane, importing the duo is dangerous. It means if Bjerg, Hauntzer, or Mikeyeung get hurt or go into the tank you are going to have to get an NA player to fill in.
On C9 they have Sven/Jensen as imports, thus are basically locked into Licorice, Sneaky, & Smoothie. If Licorice sucks, Ray can't sub in. Top talent in NA is pretty rough, so that is a tough place to be.
It's so funny reading this, because it kind of implies that NA has no domestic talent to fill the slots.
On November 28 2017 05:21 cLutZ wrote: Import slots are flexibility as well as upside. This is why, even though people like the Sven-Mithy bothlane, importing the duo is dangerous. It means if Bjerg, Hauntzer, or Mikeyeung get hurt or go into the tank you are going to have to get an NA player to fill in.
On C9 they have Sven/Jensen as imports, thus are basically locked into Licorice, Sneaky, & Smoothie. If Licorice sucks, Ray can't sub in. Top talent in NA is pretty rough, so that is a tough place to be.
It's so funny reading this, because it kind of implies that NA has no domestic talent to fill the slots.
Na is the smallest player base of any of the major regions and has the worst average ping as well. Scouting is harder, and all the evidence we have is that the scrim culture is not good enough for you to properly evaluate players. So, yea, there isn't the talent, or if there is, its hard to know. If you suddenly became the best toplaner in the world, and live in Miami, it would probably be next years off-season before you got a serious look.
On November 28 2017 05:21 cLutZ wrote: Import slots are flexibility as well as upside. This is why, even though people like the Sven-Mithy bothlane, importing the duo is dangerous. It means if Bjerg, Hauntzer, or Mikeyeung get hurt or go into the tank you are going to have to get an NA player to fill in.
On C9 they have Sven/Jensen as imports, thus are basically locked into Licorice, Sneaky, & Smoothie. If Licorice sucks, Ray can't sub in. Top talent in NA is pretty rough, so that is a tough place to be.
It's so funny reading this, because it kind of implies that NA has no domestic talent to fill the slots.
TSM will take awhile to gel, the previous itterations never really allowed their jungler to go full aggressive which MY really requires to flourish. That along with a whole new bot lane means there's going to be a balancing act they need to figure out.
TL I don't think is as good as people are calling out. They have even more issues to deal with than TSM before they really start firing on all cylinders. Olleh shined when he roamed around with Xmithie. Sure he was pretty good in lane but he mostly left Cody pretty early on to impact the map. Doublelift on the other hand is famously all about lane. He tunnels on lane super hard requiring support to be near by or playing around his side. I wonder if IMT last year was more of a fluke of all the parts working together well than individual skill. I worry Pob will be a weak link mid with them not having any true consistent foundation to work from.
Overall I do agree none of the teams really look to be improved from last year. For all the franchising hype I don't see much aside from shuffling of known talent. The shift to Bo1 also makes the progress NA teams did with subs completely negated to the point where no one is even bothering it seems. Have a feeling this is going to be another year of insanely high expectations leading only to disappointment.
It would be sad if Samsung sold their team, but if they stick together I'd be happy with the change. If Samsung ends up tearing up another World champion I think they're going to get a load of hate.
On November 28 2017 22:40 Numy wrote: TSM will take awhile to gel, the previous itterations never really allowed their jungler to go full aggressive which MY really requires to flourish. That along with a whole new bot lane means there's going to be a balancing act they need to figure out.
TL I don't think is as good as people are calling out. They have even more issues to deal with than TSM before they really start firing on all cylinders. Olleh shined when he roamed around with Xmithie. Sure he was pretty good in lane but he mostly left Cody pretty early on to impact the map. Doublelift on the other hand is famously all about lane. He tunnels on lane super hard requiring support to be near by or playing around his side. I wonder if IMT last year was more of a fluke of all the parts working together well than individual skill. I worry Pob will be a weak link mid with them not having any true consistent foundation to work from.
Overall I do agree none of the teams really look to be improved from last year. For all the franchising hype I don't see much aside from shuffling of known talent. The shift to Bo1 also makes the progress NA teams did with subs completely negated to the point where no one is even bothering it seems. Have a feeling this is going to be another year of insanely high expectations leading only to disappointment.
i disagree. doublelift is a much more flexible player than most people believe. he has grown from his CLG days of win lane win game mentality. olleh is also mechanically good and can also lane with dlift if needed and win lane.
Spring they should have an advantage if they stay together mostly, until summer things can change a lot though and new formations can catch up. Also Misfits look pretty good.
Still a lot of unknowns for EU, I am mostly curious about Vitality.
On November 28 2017 22:40 Numy wrote: TSM will take awhile to gel, the previous itterations never really allowed their jungler to go full aggressive which MY really requires to flourish. That along with a whole new bot lane means there's going to be a balancing act they need to figure out.
TL I don't think is as good as people are calling out. They have even more issues to deal with than TSM before they really start firing on all cylinders. Olleh shined when he roamed around with Xmithie. Sure he was pretty good in lane but he mostly left Cody pretty early on to impact the map. Doublelift on the other hand is famously all about lane. He tunnels on lane super hard requiring support to be near by or playing around his side. I wonder if IMT last year was more of a fluke of all the parts working together well than individual skill. I worry Pob will be a weak link mid with them not having any true consistent foundation to work from.
Overall I do agree none of the teams really look to be improved from last year. For all the franchising hype I don't see much aside from shuffling of known talent. The shift to Bo1 also makes the progress NA teams did with subs completely negated to the point where no one is even bothering it seems. Have a feeling this is going to be another year of insanely high expectations leading only to disappointment.
i disagree. doublelift is a much more flexible player than most people believe. he has grown from his CLG days of win lane win game mentality. olleh is also mechanically good and can also lane with dlift if needed and win lane.
I agree. Also on IMT there was no purpose for Olleh to stay in lane. Support roaming is generally always better since it impacts the rest of the map and his laning partner was Cody. Not much incentive to sit tight in lane. Olleh can easily play a longer laning phase if needed and Doublelift can easily just as well sit back and farm up without the supports. If anything, if the enemy support doesn't roam to match Olleh's roaming it will be a huge advantage for TL and if the enemy support does match, Doublelift is no slouch in the AD 1v1 laning. I think Olleh/Double is a great pairing and that on paper, the TL roster was constructed very intelligently this time around. Its a very balanced roster - strong jg/support duo, a botlane that can carry hard, and a mid/top that has been generally self sufficient throughout their careers. All are also veterans and there are many voices that can chime in. No strong ego clashes, Language in game will generally not be an issue either.
My main worry is the coaching/management than the roster itself this time.
So does that mean samsung is leaving the league space or are they getting a new team?
In the reddit comments they were talking about Samsung possibly getting out of esports entirely. I'm curious if Samsung ever considered shifting their esports focus from Korea to NA with franchising, considering Samsung is one of the few Korean companies that could really push their brand in NA.
However, it wouldn't be the first time Samsung has won worlds, wiped their roster, and made a new one.
Samsung is big internationally, but I think it's correct to say that focusing on KR makes most sense. Sponsoring a team in NA doesn't add to their brand value, they have a massive product lineup that caters to everyone, makes more sense to just buy a bunch of ads. Meanwhile in KR they're like 1/3rd of the GDP and there isn't a single aspect in Korean life that isn't touched upon by Samsung. Reaching to young adults means they will always look at Samsung to satisfy a need.
Besides, no one will cheer for Samsung in NA the same way they would cheer for Golden State Warriors.
On December 01 2017 04:05 DarkCore wrote: Samsung is big internationally, but I think it's correct to say that focusing on KR makes most sense. Sponsoring a team in NA doesn't add to their brand value, they have a massive product lineup that caters to everyone, makes more sense to just buy a bunch of ads. Meanwhile in KR they're like 1/3rd of the GDP and there isn't a single aspect in Korean life that isn't touched upon by Samsung. Reaching to young adults means they will always look at Samsung to satisfy a need.
Besides, no one will cheer for Samsung in NA the same way they would cheer for Golden State Warriors.
At the same time, Korean teams are bad at making revenue streams out of their players/teams. It feels like they don't even try. I haven't heard of a way to get official KT gear the same way I can and have gotten a TSM jacket. Yes, Samsung is fucking huge in Korea, but what does their esports division add there? How much ROI is it? I think Samsung could have gotten a better return by shifting their League team to NA.
People that will cheer for the GSW team are diehard fans of GSW. The bandwagoners riding the hype train of the basketball superteam will be riding the TSM bandwagon until they drop another finals or TL/C9 if they're miffed about TSM having 3 EU players.
It has always surprised me that there was no Samsung International squad like there was LGD International way back when in DOTA. Although the 'no sister teams' rule would have fucked them over from having one team in LCK and one in NA, it definitely surprised me that there wasn't one at any point.
On December 01 2017 05:21 chipmonklord17 wrote: It has always surprised me that there was no Samsung International squad like there was LGD International way back when in DOTA. Although the 'no sister teams' rule would have fucked them over from having one team in LCK and one in NA, it definitely surprised me that there wasn't one at any point.
I believe there was supposed to be a Samsung Red somewhere in the west for S5, but Riot put an end to that.
On December 01 2017 05:21 chipmonklord17 wrote: It has always surprised me that there was no Samsung International squad like there was LGD International way back when in DOTA. Although the 'no sister teams' rule would have fucked them over from having one team in LCK and one in NA, it definitely surprised me that there wasn't one at any point.
I believe there was supposed to be a Samsung Red somewhere in the west for S5, but Riot put an end to that.
It's unlikely that Samsung Red would be called that. Just that their roster was thinking of moving to the West.
what do you guys think of Fly? my impression of him from his KT days was that he performed best on roaming champions and was not a powerhouse in lane, kinda reminds of Kuro a bit
On December 01 2017 13:02 starkiller123 wrote: what do you guys think of Fly? my impression of him from his KT days was that he performed best on roaming champions and was not a powerhouse in lane, kinda reminds of Kuro a bit
I think your assessment is fair. He was never noted for his mechanical excellence, but was quite good at helping his team through other means.
I remember Fly as a utility based mid-laner who performed best when he helped others carry through his roaming, but was quite lacking as a source of damage compared to the other mid-laners. His laning ability was never praised all that much, and he performed the best on less mechanically intensive champions, which is why his LeBlanc always sucked ass, and more straightforward champions such as Aurelion Sol were more his bread and butter. I used to think Huhi was an LCS version of Fly, although Huhi improved more as a player than Fly did in recent times.
Like I've seen him molest kids that were considered top of EU on EVERY ROLE. Except maybe support, don't remember that. But seriously, at the very least he used to be legit good.
Even in challenger series last year he was wrecking toplane. With the prevalence of safe play, teamwork and coaching his style of toplaning isn't really wanted though. Most coaches would rather just have a bot that stayed under turret and uses TP whenever the shotcaller wants it.
On December 02 2017 00:31 Fildun wrote: Even in challenger series last year he was wrecking toplane. With the prevalence of safe play, teamwork and coaching his style of toplaning isn't really wanted though. Most coaches would rather just have a bot that stayed under turret and uses TP whenever the shotcaller wants it.
The best teams in the world have top laners that can just pop off if need be or stay back chilling. If coaches are trying to force people top into cc bots then they really not helping their cause.
Not a fan of solo but options were pretty thin. The rest of the team is solid so he really just has to be stable to succeed. I feel like this team is super similar to 2nd split NV which was an ok team when top didn’t collapse. Is solo better than Seraph? Maybe? Idk
The draft thing was pretty cool. The players were pretty happy when they were picked up. I did not fully understand the relevancy though. Like can teams not contract new players before this draft?
On December 03 2017 11:08 Redox wrote: The draft thing was pretty cool. The players were pretty happy when they were picked up. I did not fully understand the relevancy though. Like can teams not contract new players before this draft?
From what they said each team would have had the opportunity to gain exclusivity rights over one player from Scouting Grounds. GG, FQ, and Optic sold their spots to C9 and CG, which is why C9 had 3 spots and CG had 2. What this means is that teams have 21 days where only they can sign their selected players, after which anyone could sign them as they'd be back to being free agents.
Honestly I don't see why you'd sell your spot unless you already have your 'challenger' team set but hey, I also don't know what they sold for
On December 03 2017 11:08 Redox wrote: The draft thing was pretty cool. The players were pretty happy when they were picked up. I did not fully understand the relevancy though. Like can teams not contract new players before this draft?
From what they said each team would have had the opportunity to gain exclusivity rights over one player from Scouting Grounds. GG, FQ, and Optic sold their spots to C9 and CG, which is why C9 had 3 spots and CG had 2. What this means is that teams have 21 days where only they can sign their selected players, after which anyone could sign them as they'd be back to being free agents.
Honestly I don't see why you'd sell your spot unless you already have your 'challenger' team set but hey, I also don't know what they sold for
Yeah what I was wondering is if you could sign those players before the scouting grounds. If you could, it makes the exclusive rights gained after the scouting grounds for 21 days kinda pointless. Or much less valuable at least.
According to the Tweet linked above there was apparently only a ban on signing for the duration of the scouting grounds and shortly before it. But I guess that also makes sense because you dont want to hinder new talents and prevent them from being signed outside of scouting grounds. So I guess it is supposed an additional, limited thing.
Also following the reddit discussion it seems that several players were already "unofficially" on teams and were therefore not drafted. Basically teams being nice to each other.
On December 04 2017 07:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: Matt confirms in his 'Goodbye TL' video that he and Lourlo are playing together and being coached by Loco next split, while wearing a GSW hat.
But what could this mean?
It means he is getting benched before the end of spring split more than likely
On December 04 2017 07:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: Matt confirms in his 'Goodbye TL' video that he and Lourlo are playing together and being coached by Loco next split, while wearing a GSW hat.
But what could this mean?
It means he is getting benched before the end of spring split more than likely
I really want to root for TL, and am carefully optimistic about their roster, but I do think most problems lie with team management and general atmosphere of the teams they assemble. Somehow I feel like every person is jaded when leaving TL.
On December 05 2017 10:28 Uldridge wrote: I really want to root for TL, and am carefully optimistic about their roster, but I do think most problems lie with team management and general atmosphere of the teams they assemble. Somehow I feel like every person is jaded when leaving TL.
Cautiously optimistic fan here for a similar reason. Though I think the roster is TOO good not to make it top 3. But I will not bet them to be #1. That bet goes to TSM automatically.
pretty cool he was able to find a team but with score there dont think he'll get meaningful play time :/
Maybe they'll run Rush as a sort of carry jungler and have a completely different game plan, then when it doesn't work they send in Score to play seriously. Means that teams will have trouble preparing for both, and there's less Score VODs to work from.
Keane and Shrimp joined FlyQuest to play on their academy team. Could see them both getting play on the main team potentially and Keane opens up the route of having a mid-season roster change where they can import a player to replace someone who's not performing in another role.
It's basically my own bias, but I have never been particularly impressed with Altec, and Fenix has his problems as well. Wonder if Huni can carry this team to glory.
G2 teams seems decent enough, I just want EU to once again prove that the talent drain doesn't stop us from being better than NA .
On December 09 2017 06:56 JimmiC wrote: Depending on earning potential, it would probably be worth looking at what he could earn streaming for as much time as it would take for him to no longer be considered an import. Then he could make his return to NA lcs as a local. We love our come back stories over here!
i havent followed lol pro scene for long so i dont know a lot of players, but who the fk is deftly? did he actually just steal defts name because he wanted to play like deft or....
On December 14 2017 17:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: i havent followed lol pro scene for long so i dont know a lot of players, but who the fk is deftly? did he actually just steal defts name because he wanted to play like deft or....
Deftly is an English word that means swift haha, although, that doesn't mean he didn't name change for that reason you mentioned. His old ID was ciscla.
On paper contender for weakest roster of the league, time will tell tho, maybe haicalls will boost their performance and they are 5 americans so I have to expect good comms and a clear plan. I am of course most worried about the botlane with Matt having a terrible last year and Deftly not shining much when I watched his last team.
On December 14 2017 17:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: i havent followed lol pro scene for long so i dont know a lot of players, but who the fk is deftly? did he actually just steal defts name because he wanted to play like deft or....
Deftly is an English word that means swift haha, although, that doesn't mean he didn't name change for that reason you mentioned. His old ID was ciscla.
In what world does Deftly mean Swift? It means skillfully, gracefully, or carefully (but with great skill). Speed/swiftness is only half, at best, of Deftness.
On December 14 2017 17:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: i havent followed lol pro scene for long so i dont know a lot of players, but who the fk is deftly? did he actually just steal defts name because he wanted to play like deft or....
An NA challenger series player, he played for eUnited. You would not know him if you did not follow closely.
New players making their way up into LCS from time to time is how it is supposed to work.
On December 14 2017 17:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: i havent followed lol pro scene for long so i dont know a lot of players, but who the fk is deftly? did he actually just steal defts name because he wanted to play like deft or....
Deftly is an English word that means swift haha, although, that doesn't mean he didn't name change for that reason you mentioned. His old ID was ciscla.
In what world does Deftly mean Swift? It means skillfully, gracefully, or carefully (but with great skill). Speed/swiftness is only half, at best, of Deftness.
I apologize. This is indeed a far more accurate definition of deftly.
Very interested to see if a bot lane consisting of Arrow and Lemon can work out. On one hand, the game knowledge is there, on the other side Lemon has pretty lackluster mechanics and isn't exactly lane dominant.
Legit favourite roster reveal this season, maybe ever.
C9 is a great place for GG to end up. If him being a scrim god is true, then on a team that his 0 intention of changing their mid like C9 or TSM is a great spot for him because nobody will be unhappy and calling for a change, even if Bjerg or Jensen were to slump.
On December 20 2017 10:31 Bladeorade wrote: is sneaky dressed as a maid cuz hes on cleanup duty?
Chinese fans gave him that and a few other outfits during Worlds. That's why he has it in the first place. But yes, I assume that's the joke they're going for int he video.
Ah yeahhhh, I can live with that. Feel bad for MLXG, he's pretty good, but Karsa is beast, and I still believe that RNG with Uzi is the team with the best shot at ending Korean dominance.
Vitality roster is Cabochard Top Gillius Jungle Jizuké Mid Minitroupax ADC Jactroll Support This is 4/5 of Giants old roster from Challenger Series last spit.
On December 21 2017 01:27 DarkCore wrote: Ah yeahhhh, I can live with that. Feel bad for MLXG, he's pretty good, but Karsa is beast, and I still believe that RNG with Uzi is the team with the best shot at ending Korean dominance.
FW were the Korean destroyers so slowly but surely Uzi will collect them all in the hope to absorb their powers.
From the sounds of it they randomly dicked Froggen too. Guy is teamless and instead they have Fenix? Should we start a liquidbet for how long the roster lasts?
Froggen is apparently not playing this year. Probably retiring. Then again I don't think I know of a player who is more in love with league of legends than Froggen.
We finally get a full season of iBoy, I want to see how far he can go. EDG looks strong like always, their senseless aggression probably won't amount to anything when it matters though. Might steal another trophy from Uzi ...
OMG roster looks pretty sad, Smlz has left for what looks like another super team.
I have no idea about the QG roster.
RNG has 4 ADC, wtf is up with that. All of them are quite talented, but with Uzi they're not going to get much play time.Their main roster is incredibly strong, Karsa was pretty much one of the few upgrades they could make.
iG has solid KR solo laners, I dimly remember Jackeylove being hyped up. They are probably middle tier, probably up on the higher end too.
Another year where Snake will run Sofm, who will obliterate weak junglers and on occasion look like the second coming of Jesus, only to int and create some of the most toxic games I've ever seen in pro play.
Imp is cashing out at LGD for another year, they probably won't get much further than the middle of the table.
VG look decent again, I don't expect them to go far, but they aren't going to get dumpstered either. Easyhoon has become another Imp essentially, doesn't shine like he used to in KR but is a noticeable carry on his team.
Uncertain about new NB/ FunPlusX roster, honestly I don't follow the whole scene because I'm not Chinese, so when new names pop up I'm a bit clueless. I think Yihan was a decent sub for RNG, apparently the bot lane is quite strong.
So hyped for CN this year! They have a bottomless talent pool, especially for ADC, so as a mechanically inclined player it's bliss.
On December 23 2017 02:23 DarkCore wrote: Kakao is playing for Dark Passage, how times have changed lol.
I mean, since leaving Korea he had a year on iG in S5 and a split on Misfits in S7 which he got quickly replaced shortly after. He's never really had any great impact anywhere since leaving KT.
Levi on an NA Academy team for a team that has 2 imports in the main roster that have only been in NA for a year. Operation Dump Ryu/Meteos for Levi/Linsanity detected.
edit: Looks like OGN is booted off league. Sometimes it sucks being right. Ruin KR too why don't you Riot. It's pretty crazy how insanely power hungry these North American developers are becoming.
On December 27 2017 08:08 Numy wrote: Yea I'd be dumping Ryu as fast as possible lol.
edit: Looks like OGN is booted off league. Sometimes it sucks being right. Ruin KR too why don't you Riot. It's pretty crazy how insanely power hungry these North American developers are becoming.
Producing the broadcast of your own game seems like the most normal thing to me.
On December 27 2017 08:08 Numy wrote: Yea I'd be dumping Ryu as fast as possible lol.
edit: Looks like OGN is booted off league. Sometimes it sucks being right. Ruin KR too why don't you Riot. It's pretty crazy how insanely power hungry these North American developers are becoming.
Producing the broadcast of your own game seems like the most normal thing to me.
How so? You are a developer not a production company? Working together with people to create a rich dynamic stable scene makes the most normal sense to me instead of forcing everyone out and being sole entity. The old BW ecosystem is a perfect example of different groups working together to create something magical. Pity the developer got power hungry after a decade of not caring about it.
I guess in the twisted corporate logic of absolute control being far more important than delivering good product or added income.
edit: Imagine how awesome it would have been to have something like old BW. We have Proleague(LCK) being the main long running league while there are more open cups that feed throughout the seasons with OGN/MSL. Could have had this system in NA too but nope BO1 franchised leagues are truly the pinnacle of enjoyment. Crazy how much I've started to enjoy Riots decision making on the game while still actively loathe their esports.
Riot has been a production company for a long time. And it is not like they have much going on in the developer area anyway.
I dont think it makes sense to describe companies with political terms like "power hungry" when it is pretty normal to not outsource things you can do yourself. Just like Riot does their video and music production in-house for example. Same with Blizzard of course.
On December 27 2017 21:24 St3MoR wrote: wat Levi I hope he doesn't lose the will to live in NA and promotes to an LCS roster soon
I saw a theory on reddit that he was put on an academy roster to let him improve his English, and become comfortable living in NA. With franchising, there's no need to throw him into the deep end right away, when the team knows they're still going to be in LCS next season.
With LCS rosters locked in, looking at EU there's a lot of relatively unknown or newish talent running again. Meanwhile all but one NA team have two imports each, especially in mid lane.
Is it just me, or is EU top lane pretty stacked this season?
I mean... I don't really keep up with up and coming EU top laners, but I see 5, maybe 6 decent ones there, which isn't to say much since Alphari was the only recent addition to that number for me. It's not all that surprising that top is in a good spot in EU considering all the top laners are either from NA or Korea.
I'm a bit more excited for EU this year than NA. Feels like NA just shuffled around same players so we land up in exact same situation as before. Am keen for some Ssumday Fiora though!
PoE is good, but I honestly rate Perkz higher lol. Reddit likes to shit on Perkz though when he does poorly, so half the community doesn't seem to realise it until they actually watch his games properly.
My current bet on taking first this split in NA is TSM, but once teams settle down properly they'll probably get exposed, right before worlds.
The only thing I did that was slightly trolling is where I put Ryu I think, but I did it fairly quickly so I might change some things around if I put more thought into it.
On December 30 2017 19:26 St3MoR wrote: Formally requesting ban for kot, major sacrilege of putting HoOooOooOooOOooOohi LAST
I'm more perplexed by Flame being the lowest rated top laner, Svenskeren being the highest rated jungler, Ryu being the 2nd rater mid, DL being 6th AD, Adrian the best Support, and Echo Fox being in a playoff position.
Flame and whohi were jokes, others i sorta believe in. Ive put echo fox this high once ive noticed how many players of them ive put in upper positions.
Ads is the closest to my feeling so far other than contractz. That being said I do think jungle is the hardest category because of stuff like liquid Reignover vs imt Reignover. Or how anyone tsm fields will look statistically better than contractz who will have losing solo lanes every game. Doesn’t matter if you have a champion pool smaller than Amazing TSM will still win 75%> of their games.
Yeah gonna be difficult for COntractz who we haven't seen play for a team like Golden Guardians. On C9 he had self serving lanes and a mid camp to conduct. Really hard to have seen him. Also RO i guess is a toss up but he should fit well on the CLG roster. Huhi is a jungler's best friend.
yeah if aphro stayed I would have immediately said CLG top 2 maybe 3 no doubt they still have a good chance, but the roster with aphro makes a lot of sense
also what is the criteria for this list anyways
cause I would have a different list for a criteria of who I would draft first if we drafted by position vs who I think will be the better player in s8 vs who is the better player based on what we saw last from s7
On December 31 2017 07:50 Gahlo wrote: Don't think there's much of a drop off playwise between Aphro and Bio, just shot calling and doesn't RO fill that role?
no, that is what TL had hoped in RO, to be a shotcaller/leader but he wasn't very good at that. other players were more vocal and he isn't really the leader type.
I think CLG will be fine since they have zion who is pretty vocal and is not unfamiliar with making calls in game, its just that aphro is better at it and its easier to make clear calls from the support or jungle role imo.
For me it’s that those 3 players have similar strengths, and I would have loved to see them work together. Bio is interesting, he plays a role where we will probably learn a lot about him by seeing him on a new team. But when your jungler is borderline inting while trying to play a supportive style, part of that is on Bio as much as I like to meme on Sven. I’d probably have Bio bottom 5 with what we know at the moment but I could easily be wrong support is a hard one to judge.
Top Notes: I don't think there is much that needs explanation, Huni in the west has proven himself to be a beast in spite of his one dimension. Honestly if you get Darshan on a good split I think you are happy with anyone him or above. I think Licorice has a lot of upside, but I ranked most of the rookies pretty low.
Jungle Notes: Even though I think it is correct to say that COntractz is 5th I think he's going to look pretty bad this season. What I saw at worlds convinced me he's a good player but the GGS roster will put him to the test for sure. People are going to question MikeYeung, I'm just going to say this guy was legit the worst jungler in the league from the patch cinderhullk got buffed until the end of the season, but yes TSM will still win all of their games. Actually I also want to retract what I said when C9 Sven was first announced, I think I was just dissapointed because they had lost Contractz, but the more I think about it the more I think it's a good fit.
Mid:Nothing really shocking Here I guess Huhi not being #1 lol
ADC:I think Apollo is the big one here, his summer split last season he was a beast, I could be way off as a predictive, but if he plays like last summer this is free.
Support:Two abnormalities are Stunt and Hakuho, I think Hakuho probably the best dps oriented support in the league, not really the most important skill but in the current meta it could make him stick out to causual fans finally. I've already talked about Bio, Stunt is just a really good player, I don't think his LCS win% is 100% coincidence.
Overall:I mostly belive in this, I went with Clutch gaming for my "surprise pick" I think they are the best new team for sure. it's probably more likely to put them right behind TL but I didn't want to be super Vanilla.
On January 03 2018 00:38 JimmiC wrote: That is a smart pickup. Once he becomes a domestic player his value goes way up!
I think I read that the years thing doesn't exist anymore, but they become residents when they have a green card.
That is indeed the case but only for new players who joined a new region after April 2016. Players who moved to a new region after that can still declare residency after 4 splits.
On January 03 2018 00:38 JimmiC wrote: That is a smart pickup. Once he becomes a domestic player his value goes way up!
I think I read that the years thing doesn't exist anymore, but they become residents when they have a green card.
Are you sure? Loco mentioned in a video he made in December that Impact's time was almost done and that he'd be a resident next year. Would be really weird for a coach to be out of the loop
EPT
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