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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 24 2017 06:51 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because: #1. Corki is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional midlane caster. #2. Graves is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional jungle AD bruiser with slightly higher range. #3. The popular botlane "AD" champions are utility-focused, and 2/3 (Jihn/Varus) are also more caster than auto-attack champions. (3/4 if you include Ezreal) If people were going Jungle Twitch, Mid Ashe, Botlane Vayne/Cait/Sivir, your rebuttal would make sense. As is, its just you categorizing champions incorrectly.
This feels like we're getting into a "what is an ADC" debate, so let's change the question into this:
Crit-focused ADCs aren't doing so hot. But for like, 90% of LoL's existence, you needed a crit-focused ADC in the bot lane or else you were hard out-scaled. This meta seems like the pendulum swung a little too far away from crit ADCs, but if we are serious about encouraging diversity in ADC builds then it stands to reason there will be periods where the traditional IE/PD/LW build isn't going to cut it.
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Adcs are not weak it's just the meta doesn't currently allow the time and side lane farm focus auto attack adcs need. Ashe varus jhin currently fill a niche needed in team comps. Top is currently the only role that tanks are being played. So Right now damage supports and junglers are leaving a lack of secondary engage and team utility that is being forced into the adc role. If Leona Braum Janna with things like sej and hecarim jungle became meta you will see hyper carriers come back.
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On February 24 2017 07:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because: #1. Corki is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional midlane caster. #2. Graves is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional jungle AD bruiser with slightly higher range. #3. The popular botlane "AD" champions are utility-focused, and 2/3 (Jihn/Varus) are also more caster than auto-attack champions. (3/4 if you include Ezreal) If people were going Jungle Twitch, Mid Ashe, Botlane Vayne/Cait/Sivir, your rebuttal would make sense. As is, its just you categorizing champions incorrectly. This feels like we're getting into a "what is an ADC" debate, so let's change the question into this: Crit-focused ADCs aren't doing so hot. But for like, 90% of LoL's existence, you needed a crit-focused ADC in the bot lane or else you were hard out-scaled. This meta seems like the pendulum swung a little too far away from crit ADCs, but if we are serious about encouraging diversity in ADC builds then it stands to reason there will be periods where the traditional IE/PD/LW build isn't going to cut it.
You talk as if blue ezreal/kalista/arpen Lucian have not been a thing in competitive play.
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On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because playing an adc bot is hell. All the fighting is done bottom when you have no items or levels compared to everyone else and it feels horrible.
Adcs not weak. Just sucks being the weakest champ in important early game fights over your tower / Drake. Feels bad.
Apparently people prefer this to laneswaps I'm pro play. Beats me.
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On February 24 2017 07:21 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 07:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 24 2017 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because: #1. Corki is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional midlane caster. #2. Graves is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional jungle AD bruiser with slightly higher range. #3. The popular botlane "AD" champions are utility-focused, and 2/3 (Jihn/Varus) are also more caster than auto-attack champions. (3/4 if you include Ezreal) If people were going Jungle Twitch, Mid Ashe, Botlane Vayne/Cait/Sivir, your rebuttal would make sense. As is, its just you categorizing champions incorrectly. This feels like we're getting into a "what is an ADC" debate, so let's change the question into this: Crit-focused ADCs aren't doing so hot. But for like, 90% of LoL's existence, you needed a crit-focused ADC in the bot lane or else you were hard out-scaled. This meta seems like the pendulum swung a little too far away from crit ADCs, but if we are serious about encouraging diversity in ADC builds then it stands to reason there will be periods where the traditional IE/PD/LW build isn't going to cut it. You talk as if blue ezreal/kalista/arpen Lucian have not been a thing in competitive play.
Kalista had the same buildup time as Crit bot laner. Ezreal was close as well due to needing Tear maxing to come online. Don't remember what the Lucian build was. In all the metas those marksmen were in, there was still 1 traditional crit bot laner that was in the 1st or 2nd tier and could keep up with the pace of the game. There currently isn't any, having to dip to Caitlyn or Sivir to find anything that isn't dreadful to play, but I'm pretty sure Sivir is a more utility focused build right now anyway.
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If I compare adc diversity (the role, not champ type) to when I started watching in 2015, I do think adc meta has become more stale. In terms of number of champions it's not that bad. In summer 2015, 9 champions were picked more than 10 times, while in this season, 7 champions have been picked more than 5 times (in LCK). However, if I look at the type of adc's picked, I do think there are some differences.
In 2015 summer, the four most picked champions were sivir, corki, lucian and vayne. Making a choice for one of these champions has a significant impact on how you play as a team. If I compare that to the current stats (Jhin, Varus, Caitlin, Ashe), I think at least three of these champions fullfill a similar role in a composition. There's obviously some nuances here, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that these are more similar than the 2015 champions. This picture doesn't really change when looking at the champions besides the first four.
Tbh, I think this has a lot to do with the first brick; you want to siege more than anything else to snowball the first turret. There simply is no time to get a vayne (for example) to full strength.
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On February 24 2017 07:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because: #1. Corki is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional midlane caster. #2. Graves is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional jungle AD bruiser with slightly higher range. #3. The popular botlane "AD" champions are utility-focused, and 2/3 (Jihn/Varus) are also more caster than auto-attack champions. (3/4 if you include Ezreal) If people were going Jungle Twitch, Mid Ashe, Botlane Vayne/Cait/Sivir, your rebuttal would make sense. As is, its just you categorizing champions incorrectly. This feels like we're getting into a "what is an ADC" debate, so let's change the question into this: Crit-focused ADCs aren't doing so hot. But for like, 90% of LoL's existence, you needed a crit-focused ADC in the bot lane or else you were hard out-scaled. This meta seems like the pendulum swung a little too far away from crit ADCs, but if we are serious about encouraging diversity in ADC builds then it stands to reason there will be periods where the traditional IE/PD/LW build isn't going to cut it.
The whole point is about the definition of "what's an AD" and whether people like what riot is doing with the position. Its not that "the pendulum swung" its that the whole reason people like crit-focused (more importantly they like Auto-attack focused) ADCs is because its actual diversity in the game. Every other position is all about spamming abilities and landing big ults, this is supposed to be the auto-attack position. If you don't like auto-weaving and kiting, there are 4 other positions in Lol for you to play.
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On February 24 2017 07:52 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 07:21 NpG)Explosive wrote:On February 24 2017 07:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 24 2017 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because: #1. Corki is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional midlane caster. #2. Graves is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional jungle AD bruiser with slightly higher range. #3. The popular botlane "AD" champions are utility-focused, and 2/3 (Jihn/Varus) are also more caster than auto-attack champions. (3/4 if you include Ezreal) If people were going Jungle Twitch, Mid Ashe, Botlane Vayne/Cait/Sivir, your rebuttal would make sense. As is, its just you categorizing champions incorrectly. This feels like we're getting into a "what is an ADC" debate, so let's change the question into this: Crit-focused ADCs aren't doing so hot. But for like, 90% of LoL's existence, you needed a crit-focused ADC in the bot lane or else you were hard out-scaled. This meta seems like the pendulum swung a little too far away from crit ADCs, but if we are serious about encouraging diversity in ADC builds then it stands to reason there will be periods where the traditional IE/PD/LW build isn't going to cut it. You talk as if blue ezreal/kalista/arpen Lucian have not been a thing in competitive play. Kalista had the same buildup time as Crit bot laner. Ezreal was close as well due to needing Tear maxing to come online. Don't remember what the Lucian build was. In all the metas those marksmen were in, there was still 1 traditional crit bot laner that was in the 1st or 2nd tier and could keep up with the pace of the game. There currently isn't any, having to dip to Caitlyn or Sivir to find anything that isn't dreadful to play, but I'm pretty sure Sivir is a more utility focused build right now anyway.
Thank god Kalista needed some buildup time, she could afford 2 lifesteal in her first 3 items. Same for blue ez who can afford an armour item early.
Currently Ashe still see a lot more play than cait and sivir, as a traditionnal crit bot laner. Varus was also played mostly with crit build in patch 7.1 if I remember correctly. At the moment I feel like the adc role in pro play is all about having strong utility. Was MF prioritized over ashe/sivir even though she could also abused the lethality items?
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On February 24 2017 08:13 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 07:52 Gahlo wrote:On February 24 2017 07:21 NpG)Explosive wrote:On February 24 2017 07:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 24 2017 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On February 24 2017 04:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I must be missing something here, but: why does everyone say that ADCs are in a bad spot when teams routinely draft 3 ADC comps with no tanks?
Sure, bot lane ADC doesn't have a lot of variety, but that has always been true since the dawn of man. What I mean is, if this really were a bad ADC meta, why are we seeing so much Graves jungle / Corki mid?
Because: #1. Corki is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional midlane caster. #2. Graves is not an ADC anymore. He is a traditional jungle AD bruiser with slightly higher range. #3. The popular botlane "AD" champions are utility-focused, and 2/3 (Jihn/Varus) are also more caster than auto-attack champions. (3/4 if you include Ezreal) If people were going Jungle Twitch, Mid Ashe, Botlane Vayne/Cait/Sivir, your rebuttal would make sense. As is, its just you categorizing champions incorrectly. This feels like we're getting into a "what is an ADC" debate, so let's change the question into this: Crit-focused ADCs aren't doing so hot. But for like, 90% of LoL's existence, you needed a crit-focused ADC in the bot lane or else you were hard out-scaled. This meta seems like the pendulum swung a little too far away from crit ADCs, but if we are serious about encouraging diversity in ADC builds then it stands to reason there will be periods where the traditional IE/PD/LW build isn't going to cut it. You talk as if blue ezreal/kalista/arpen Lucian have not been a thing in competitive play. Kalista had the same buildup time as Crit bot laner. Ezreal was close as well due to needing Tear maxing to come online. Don't remember what the Lucian build was. In all the metas those marksmen were in, there was still 1 traditional crit bot laner that was in the 1st or 2nd tier and could keep up with the pace of the game. There currently isn't any, having to dip to Caitlyn or Sivir to find anything that isn't dreadful to play, but I'm pretty sure Sivir is a more utility focused build right now anyway. Thank god Kalista needed some buildup time, she could afford 2 lifesteal in her first 3 items. Same for blue ez who can afford an armour item early. Currently Ashe still see a lot more play than cait and sivir, as a traditionnal crit bot laner. Varus was also played mostly with crit build in patch 7.1 if I remember correctly. At the moment I feel like the adc role in pro play is all about having strong utility. Was MF prioritized over ashe/sivir even though she could also abused the lethality items?
Ashe sees a lot of play as a bot lane ranged initiator, signified by her first BF item being Reaver.
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Edge of Night nerfed. -5AD +15s CD.
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On February 24 2017 07:59 JimmiC wrote:
Cho is op now I just had a game where I had 6k health, did most damage had items like froheart/deathcap/boots/ROA/Liandries and Rylais. like I build damage but was a massive tank. its just wrong.
I played against him and he felt super strong. Pushed him all the way into tower on every wave, landed huge amounts of harass and poke damage and never felt like I had a real chance to actualy kill him. Late game he was strong and super tanky despite being really pressured in lane. He still popped when he got CCed and 5v1 focused though. So I don't think super op, but certainly over tuned. He needs to lose stacks, without that he just gets too many free stats.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Zz'Rot seems like a great item for a split push Cho. The voidspawn damage scales with your max HP. It gives the resistances that he needs.
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holy shit that bond of stone looks broken as fuck
i can just imagine tank comps + sivir
edit:
actually nvm just read its on cc
definitely better than before and can see some use on high cc tanky champs.
but not as good as i thought
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On February 24 2017 11:46 Gahlo wrote:
Edge of Night nerfed. -5AD +15s CD.
but the 10s duration is still untouched yes?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Does Bond of Stone work with Frozen Heart?
Also Riot needs to hire a lawyer or something for their tooltips and wording. This is super ambiguous:
"Your crowd control effects brand enemy champions with an earthen rune for 4 seconds. Other ally champions who attack branded enemies heal for 5 + 2.5% of your maximum health over 2 seconds (halved if you are ranged)."
"Halved if you are ranged" means the heal is halved if the attacker is ranged, or if the person who takes the mastery is ranged?
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On February 25 2017 20:14 dsyxelic wrote:
holy shit that bond of stone looks broken as fuck
i can just imagine tank comps + sivir
edit:
actually nvm just read its on cc
definitely better than before and can see some use on high cc tanky champs.
but not as good as i thought
It works with items like rylai's though. At least for the moment, they might change that.
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It means if you, the champ with the mastery, are ranged. Look at items and other masteries that straight-up say "half fo ranged champions" otherwise.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 26 2017 02:29 Alaric wrote:
It means if you, the champ with the mastery, are ranged. Look at items and other masteries that straight-up say "half fo ranged champions" otherwise.
That's the literal meaning, but that sounds really weird, doesn't it? Why are your CC marks only half-value if your autoattacks are ranged? There's no relationship there whatsoever. It would make more sense if it was the attacker's range, or even if your CC effect was applied at range. But it is weird to say that you get full healing off my Kayle Q mark until I press E, at which point you now heal for half.
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EPT
