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On February 08 2017 06:46 JimmiC wrote:
And how does not scriming with EF fix any of what you have stated above?
Basically what Sent. said. The goal is to either A) Get them relegated; or B) Keep them at the bottom of the league so that future outside investors (who, like with all sports teams will see this as equal parts vanity project and profit center) will see "ooo I should totally buy a 30% stake in TSM and not start my own team, that way I can win the LCS!"
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On February 08 2017 07:24 dsyxelic wrote:
seems to work fine if thats the goal (staying in LCS)
dig will surely stay in the LCS with their level of play right now. they aren't great but its more than enough to smack around any challenging challenger team.
also chaser has been meh. he's a bottom of the half jg in NA right now imo.
He looks that way because only one of his lanes knows how to not fail in lane, let alone carry one.
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On February 08 2017 07:09 Sent. wrote:
Their logic is that "if you can't scrim with the best, you won't be the best" therefore it should be impossible to keep a team in LCS without cooperating with the old guard because atm they're the best. It's like they're forgetting all you need to do get into the LCS is buying 2 decent foreigners and signing some shitters from local solo Q to fill the remaining slots.
Such strategy could work in Korea where the teams are actually the best but in NA it shouldn't work unless Riot decides to switch to franchising model.
I think the strategy can work. Maybe in the beginning a team that does not scrim can keep up, but long term when everybody improves (except them) I really doubt it. And even if they do not get EF relegated, keeping them near the bottom could still be considered a success.
You can also argue that EF is already the worst macro team in NA LCS, which might at least partially be due to lacking scrims.
This also makes me wonder if they plan to keep the ban in place forever. Would be super harsh.
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I mean, it's useful for now.
Echo Fox theoretically could buy a full Korean challenger squad just to scrim with. Probably better practice than NA native clubs regardless... seeing how how an ESC ever can win MSI but got wrecked in the LCK.
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On February 08 2017 08:07 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 07:24 dsyxelic wrote:
seems to work fine if thats the goal (staying in LCS)
dig will surely stay in the LCS with their level of play right now. they aren't great but its more than enough to smack around any challenging challenger team.
also chaser has been meh. he's a bottom of the half jg in NA right now imo. He looks that way because only one of his lanes knows how to not fail in lane, let alone carry one.
maybe
but i've seen other junglers do more with what they have than chaser has.
i know he has the ability, but he's shaky right now and not what i'd call 'solid'
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On February 08 2017 08:36 iCanada wrote:
I mean, it's useful for now.
Echo Fox theoretically could buy a full Korean challenger squad just to scrim with. Probably better practice than NA native clubs regardless... seeing how how an ESC ever can win MSI but got wrecked in the LCK.
Ever won a Kespa Cup which nobody cares about and a really weak field IEM.
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On February 08 2017 13:21 Gahlo wrote:
Ever won a really weak field IEM. That's around tsm's level right?
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On February 08 2017 14:27 Yorbon wrote:That's around tsm's level right?
If you're trying to compare it to the IEM Kato they won, hardly.
It had a C9 with Balls and Hai stuck at support, post Huni-RO Fnatic, H2K that picked up Jankos, Forgiven, and Vander less than 2 weeks ahead of time, QG lulChina, and a Dig roster coached by Brokenshard.
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On February 06 2017 09:21 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 07:18 Nemireck wrote:
It doesn't make much sense to me to pick a fight with Rick Fox' team. Dude is a great ambassador for eSports in general and the only guy the mainstream media will touch in an interview (You don't see Regi doing segments on The View, for instance.). The other owners should be working with this guy to continue to grow the entire market.
The exact opposite actually. The scene growing like that is beneficial to the players and the fans but detrimental to the owners. What happens if 9 of Rick Fox's closest friends see EF and go "man I should go do that"? Overnight they could buy out every team in the league that doesn't have a competitive sponsor (i.e. Dig having the 76ers, FlyQuest, etc). These people have more money in their bank accounts than TSM has made in its entire life. There is no reason that TSM, C9 and the like should be nice to them, for their own sake. I'm not saying I LIKE that, I'm saying I understand from a business standpoint why you would tell your team they aren't allowed to scrim EF
I hadn't considered the possibility that rich people could just buy 5 fantastic players and start their own team, forcing established brands like TSM and C9 into relegation without any benefit from helping build the entire eSport (if we must call it that) to begin with. Interesting point.
Thus the fight for franchising and literally "owning" the LCS slot rather than relegation and the like. Once franchising is put in place, would that change the strategy RE: Working with EF to grow the eSport?
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On February 10 2017 08:04 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 09:21 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 06 2017 07:18 Nemireck wrote:
It doesn't make much sense to me to pick a fight with Rick Fox' team. Dude is a great ambassador for eSports in general and the only guy the mainstream media will touch in an interview (You don't see Regi doing segments on The View, for instance.). The other owners should be working with this guy to continue to grow the entire market.
The exact opposite actually. The scene growing like that is beneficial to the players and the fans but detrimental to the owners. What happens if 9 of Rick Fox's closest friends see EF and go "man I should go do that"? Overnight they could buy out every team in the league that doesn't have a competitive sponsor (i.e. Dig having the 76ers, FlyQuest, etc). These people have more money in their bank accounts than TSM has made in its entire life. There is no reason that TSM, C9 and the like should be nice to them, for their own sake. I'm not saying I LIKE that, I'm saying I understand from a business standpoint why you would tell your team they aren't allowed to scrim EF I hadn't considered the possibility that rich people could just buy 5 fantastic players and start their own team, forcing established brands like TSM and C9 into relegation without any benefit from helping build the entire eSport (if we must call it that) to begin with. Interesting point. Thus the fight for franchising and literally "owning" the LCS slot rather than relegation and the like. Once franchising is put in place, would that change the strategy RE: Working with EF to grow the eSport?
Yes, the whole point of them wanting franchising is so that future Rick Foxes need to buy the team from, say, Hotshot, because there is no other way to get into the league.
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On February 10 2017 08:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:04 Nemireck wrote:On February 06 2017 09:21 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 06 2017 07:18 Nemireck wrote:
It doesn't make much sense to me to pick a fight with Rick Fox' team. Dude is a great ambassador for eSports in general and the only guy the mainstream media will touch in an interview (You don't see Regi doing segments on The View, for instance.). The other owners should be working with this guy to continue to grow the entire market.
The exact opposite actually. The scene growing like that is beneficial to the players and the fans but detrimental to the owners. What happens if 9 of Rick Fox's closest friends see EF and go "man I should go do that"? Overnight they could buy out every team in the league that doesn't have a competitive sponsor (i.e. Dig having the 76ers, FlyQuest, etc). These people have more money in their bank accounts than TSM has made in its entire life. There is no reason that TSM, C9 and the like should be nice to them, for their own sake. I'm not saying I LIKE that, I'm saying I understand from a business standpoint why you would tell your team they aren't allowed to scrim EF I hadn't considered the possibility that rich people could just buy 5 fantastic players and start their own team, forcing established brands like TSM and C9 into relegation without any benefit from helping build the entire eSport (if we must call it that) to begin with. Interesting point. Thus the fight for franchising and literally "owning" the LCS slot rather than relegation and the like. Once franchising is put in place, would that change the strategy RE: Working with EF to grow the eSport? Yes, the whole point of them wanting franchising is so that future Rick Foxes need to buy the team from, say, Hotshot, because there is no other way to get into the league.
Something I hadn't considered. Totally explains why I couldn't understand why they would want to pick a fight with EF. Now I do, thanks guys!
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On February 10 2017 08:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:04 Nemireck wrote:On February 06 2017 09:21 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 06 2017 07:18 Nemireck wrote:
It doesn't make much sense to me to pick a fight with Rick Fox' team. Dude is a great ambassador for eSports in general and the only guy the mainstream media will touch in an interview (You don't see Regi doing segments on The View, for instance.). The other owners should be working with this guy to continue to grow the entire market.
The exact opposite actually. The scene growing like that is beneficial to the players and the fans but detrimental to the owners. What happens if 9 of Rick Fox's closest friends see EF and go "man I should go do that"? Overnight they could buy out every team in the league that doesn't have a competitive sponsor (i.e. Dig having the 76ers, FlyQuest, etc). These people have more money in their bank accounts than TSM has made in its entire life. There is no reason that TSM, C9 and the like should be nice to them, for their own sake. I'm not saying I LIKE that, I'm saying I understand from a business standpoint why you would tell your team they aren't allowed to scrim EF I hadn't considered the possibility that rich people could just buy 5 fantastic players and start their own team, forcing established brands like TSM and C9 into relegation without any benefit from helping build the entire eSport (if we must call it that) to begin with. Interesting point. Thus the fight for franchising and literally "owning" the LCS slot rather than relegation and the like. Once franchising is put in place, would that change the strategy RE: Working with EF to grow the eSport? Yes, the whole point of them wanting franchising is so that future Rick Foxes need to buy the team from, say, Hotshot, because there is no other way to get into the league.
That and the increase in revenue they would receive from moving toward profit sharing. The teams that are in the league today should, from a business standpoint, do everything in their power to stay in LCS until franchising happens. And if that means being a dick to a millionaire so more of his friends don't follow in his footsteps, so be it.
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On February 10 2017 10:37 JimmiC wrote:
Kind of makes sense kind of doesn't. If you have a spot and there fore have brand awareness your team is already more valuable then some challenger upstart. Also there has to be something in it for riot to do this. This system is very similar to the soccer system which has worked fine.
IMO this strategy could just as easily push more people do what they fear as "force" riot into making the franchise spot.
Team owners just can't compete with the amount that VC is able to shell out. Will a player take a paycut to go to a recognized name like TSM, CLG, or C9? Yeah, but only to a certain point. So right now owners are trying to keep their spots, but eventually everybody becomes a free agent and everybody has a price. Organic owners of teams can't compete with NBA/MLB/NHL owners when it comes to contracts.
Riot did this in the beginning because there was like... 4 consistant orgs in LCS(at least in NA, don't recall how EU was at the time) in TSM, CLG, Dig and Curse. Everybody else was "literally who?" tier that couldn't put a decent roster together. Relegation was originally designed to get rid of poorly managed orgs. Nowadays there is little turnover from split to split. Hell, more LCS spots get bought than teams getting in on their own merit - something Riot didn't forsee and has ended as of this year.
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On February 10 2017 23:45 JimmiC wrote:
What's in it for riot to go to francise model? Especially when the guys are black balling new investors?
Also I wasn't meaning that players would pick established teams I was saying investors would rather buy existing clubs, even though they are more expensive, then a challenger team and try to load them up with talent.
Whats to stop EF to be like well then fuck these guys a put it out there they are paying huge signing bonuses? Or telling some of his rich friends, these douche bags are trying to black ball me can you guys buy a couple teams and we will fuck em up.
I don't see how this strategy is actually going to work. I get how some people with very little business experience might think it would. But it seems a lot more junior high pick on the new kid than a legit business strategy.
Right now, unless you are a high profile team like TSM, CLG, or C9, it isn't worth getting into League. The money just isn't there with the way esports works in the west. These big sports teams getting in on the game are there because they assume franchising is just over the horizon.
Buying larger orgs is expensive. Regi isn't going to part with a chunk of his League team. You need to buy a chunk of his Smash players, Vainglory team, and Hearthstone players. They are actively looking to put together another CS:GO team. They have been active in COD in the past. There are whispers they're looking to make and OW team. Similar situation with Jack/C9, who is involved in all the previously mentioned scenes + Dota 2. Hotshot/CLG is in League, Challenger, CS:GO, CS:GO - Womens, Smash, Overwatch, and Hearthstone.
I need to run, I'll finish this post later.
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On February 11 2017 23:37 JimmiC wrote:
great post about he economics of esports. None of it remotely explains why riot would want to go to franchising system or how blackballing investment would make them want to more? Why would they want to give increased power to people who are already trying to push them around?
This is not Hockey, football or basketball no one owned those sports. RIOT owns league, you have to work with them not try to push them into things by being dinks. It is very junior high and it is not a well thought out strategy.
Yes and no. At the end of the day Riot can tell you to go fuck yourself, but if you think an LCS without C9/TSM/CLG/TL would be remotely as popular as it is today you're kidding yourself. Riot owns the league but the teams ARE the league. And those teams make far more money in CS:GO (where Valve has given far more opportunities for teams to make money) and the teams no longer need LoL. Regi made his empire now, he doesn't need Riot to make money, but Riot sure as hell needs TSM for people to care
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EPT
