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[Patch 6.16] Kled General Discussion - Page 8
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Viewers are players! They want to understand the meta they're watching for worlds! | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Tryndamere basically came out and called Regi a cheapskate who doesn't want to fairly pay his players, and said he is trying to funnel money out of competitive LoL into other e-Sports. I can see how Tryndamere would think that is a bad thing, but even if he felt that... him suggesting that is a bad thing can't possibly do anything but piss his entire customer base off. Not to mention, I am fairly sure a lot of that is BS. I mean, TSM exists because of LoL, but I am also pretty sure TSM gets a lot more from HTC, Logitech, HyperX, Redbull, Geico, Twitch, and Cyberpower than they do from Riot in the first place. Which, may be largely because of their popularity with the league community, but it isn't like Riot was open to accepting more corporate sponsorships regardless. Conveniently he went back and deleted half that stuff. http://i.imgur.com/6H14ghF.jpg vs https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4z1eec/reginald_on_how_riots_major_patch_changes_hurt/d6sarg4 Sure it is more interesting, but it is also some kind of stupid. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Sure Regi is never going to win the laneswaps argument, but then you accuse him of funneling money out of league? That's ridiculous. The LCS stipend doesn't cover half thier salaries and they probably don't come out ahead pre -sponsors unless they win worlds. Do they think TSM and CLG should just stick around as vassal states to a rigid company with no games evidently in the pipeline, that pays a stipend that was outdated 3 years ago, offers the lowest prizepool of any major game, and has low prospects for future monetization? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 23 2016 17:01 cLutZ wrote: It does, as is typical of Riot, circle back to the lack of dissenting voices ever being in the room, or the company at all. Sure Regi is never going to win the laneswaps argument, but then you accuse him of funneling money out of league? That's ridiculous. The LCS stipend doesn't cover half thier salaries and they probably don't come out ahead pre -sponsors unless they win worlds. Do they think TSM and CLG should just stick around as vassal states to a rigid company with no games evidently in the pipeline, that pays a stipend that was outdated 3 years ago, offers the lowest prizepool of any major game, and has low prospects for future monetization? Modern Riot is George Lucas during the prequels. They don't have anyone around to question them because "It's Riot". and the people that do get attacked like crazy by fans, until the fans themselves see the handiwork and complain about it until the next project and then eagerly await more. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4z4ogm/jens_hilger_coowner_of_g2_has_financial_ties_with/ | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On August 23 2016 17:01 cLutZ wrote: [...] The LCS stipend doesn't cover half thier salaries and they probably don't come out ahead pre -sponsors unless they win worlds. Do they think TSM and CLG should just stick around as vassal states to a rigid company with no games evidently in the pipeline, that pays a stipend that was outdated 3 years ago, offers the lowest prizepool of any major game, and has low prospects for future monetization? Why does it matter if they come out ahead pre-sponsors? That's just not how sports work (at least those I am familiar with). They all rely on sponsorship, why should it be different in league? It's not the job of a league to make sure that teams have enough money. That's the teams' job. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 23 2016 14:27 iCanada wrote: I mean... Tryndamere basically came out and called Regi a cheapskate who doesn't want to fairly pay his players, and said he is trying to funnel money out of competitive LoL into other e-Sports. I can see how Tryndamere would think that is a bad thing, but even if he felt that... him suggesting that is a bad thing can't possibly do anything but piss his entire customer base off. Not to mention, I am fairly sure a lot of that is BS. I mean, TSM exists because of LoL, but I am also pretty sure TSM gets a lot more from HTC, Logitech, HyperX, Redbull, Geico, Twitch, and Cyberpower than they do from Riot in the first place. Which, may be largely because of their popularity with the league community, but it isn't like Riot was open to accepting more corporate sponsorships regardless. Conveniently he went back and deleted half that stuff. http://i.imgur.com/6H14ghF.jpg vs https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4z1eec/reginald_on_how_riots_major_patch_changes_hurt/d6sarg4 Sure it is more interesting, but it is also some kind of stupid. Reginald asking for more money is a pretty interesting point. Where is that money going to come from? In a traditional sport money comes from the fans via ticket sales, paying for cable TV, merchandise, and (indirectly) sponsorships. The first two aren't true for LCS since tickets cost barely anything and you can stream every game for free. And the third and fourth are already 100% for the owners, since I assume Riot doesn't take a cut of the TSM store's revenues or TSM's RedBull sponsorship. So that money's only going to come from Riot. And that's what makes Tryndamere mad, though even he wouldn't say this. Why should Reginald get more money from Riot? What does Reginald do for Riot, compared to what Riot has done for him? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 23 2016 20:23 Prog wrote: Why does it matter if they come out ahead pre-sponsors? That's just not how sports work (at least those I am familiar with). They all rely on sponsorship, why should it be different in league? It's not the job of a league to make sure that teams have enough money. That's the teams' job. It is actually how "sports" works. Most teams get the bulk of their money from "the league" through shared revenue on national deals, and gate is 2nd. The sponsors for NFL, NBA, MLB teams are a tiny portion. E-sports is different and a lot comes from sponsorships, but for TSM a lot of that isn't team-specific, some of it also is on Solomid.net, Redbull sponsors all TSM teams across games, etc. Its not really relevant, but neither is the accusation that money is being funneled out of League, because Riot is probably including money Regi gets from his website empire (and sponsors/streamers there) as "League revenue" when he could capture that with or without the LCS. On August 23 2016 23:47 GrandInquisitor wrote: Reginald asking for more money is a pretty interesting point. Where is that money going to come from? In a traditional sport money comes from the fans via ticket sales, paying for cable TV, merchandise, and (indirectly) sponsorships. The first two aren't true for LCS since tickets cost barely anything and you can stream every game for free. And the third and fourth are already 100% for the owners, since I assume Riot doesn't take a cut of the TSM store's revenues or TSM's RedBull sponsorship. So that money's only going to come from Riot. And that's what makes Tryndamere mad, though even he wouldn't say this. Why should Reginald get more money from Riot? What does Reginald do for Riot, compared to what Riot has done for him? 1. LCS tickets should cost more, particularly playoffs and Worlds which are consistently sold out in less than 24 hours even with website crashes. Its unfair to hold this against teams. 2. Broadcasts rights are certainly a revenue stream Riot could pursue, but hasn't done much. The LCS broadcast is bloated and non-monetized. Riot is essentially talking out of both sides of their face on this, they claim to lose money on LCS, but don't pursue the best way for it to "break even". 3/4. Yes. Probably. Unless you consider skins to be team-related merch (and you arguably should, how is Bjergson playing Popstar Ahri in a LCS final game not akin to him wearing a jersey?). On whether Riot/Regi owes each other more. I don't think league needs or needed TSM, but it also is true that TSM is one of the teams that prospered, and probably was better off in the Pre-LCS format. So, while LOL is the platform that launched them, Regi owes almost nothing to Riot Games eSports division. Had DOTA2 been the MOBA de-jure maybe TSM launches there. Also, this all boils down to skins. LCS is not run by Riot as a sports league, it is run as an advertising budget. This is why most of these potential revenue sources are left untapped, everything is focused on increasing merch (aka in-game skins) sales instead of creating a self-sustaining environment. Thus, almost all the money does end up in Riot's pocket, even though they get to tell a sob story about LCS being a negative to the bottom line. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Suppose that Nathan's Hot Dogs is sponsoring a hot dog eating league. It pays regular salaries to competitors and organizes tournaments that pay out prize money. Should the hot dog eaters band together and demand a share of the overall sales of hot dogs? Isn't the real dispute just over how much their salaries / prize money should be? Also, how the fuck is Riot going to sell broadcast rights? Because it's damn clear that if they were going to sell it to ESPN, ESPN is not going to be OK with them broadcasting the games on YouTube/Twitch. So the only way broadcasting money is viable is if you have to pay for ESPN in order to watch LCS. Yeah, let me know how that'll go. | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On August 24 2016 02:50 AsmodeusXI wrote: Take a look at this handsome gentleman. It's like Thresh mashed with Mord mashed with Mal. I like the mix, it feels like a gravediggers kit. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On August 24 2016 01:12 cLutZ wrote: It is actually how "sports" works. Most teams get the bulk of their money from "the league" through shared revenue on national deals, and gate is 2nd. The sponsors for NFL, NBA, MLB teams are a tiny portion. E-sports is different and a lot comes from sponsorships, but for TSM a lot of that isn't team-specific, some of it also is on Solomid.net, Redbull sponsors all TSM teams across games, etc. Its not really relevant, but neither is the accusation that money is being funneled out of League, because Riot is probably including money Regi gets from his website empire (and sponsors/streamers there) as "League revenue" when he could capture that with or without the LCS. Maybe it's different in the US, but I am certain that in European sports most teams get barely anything from the league*. And certainly the teams do not break even pre-sponsors. There is a reason why football (soccer) teams have to provide a budget ahead of a season and only then they are allowed to play. And it's not unheard of that teams just go broke and are not allowed to play. Then they have to start new in a lower league (even big names, for instance the Glasgow Rangers 4-5 years ago) And there are similar systems in pretty much all European sports leagues. *I say most, because the big teams do get some revenue from tv rights. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 24 2016 02:40 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't think Riot actually tells it as a sob story. It should be patently obvious to everyone in the world that LCS is a loss leader. The only question is, how should the people that participate in that loss leader be compensated? Suppose that Nathan's Hot Dogs is sponsoring a hot dog eating league. It pays regular salaries to competitors and organizes tournaments that pay out prize money. Should the hot dog eaters band together and demand a share of the overall sales of hot dogs? Isn't the real dispute just over how much their salaries / prize money should be? Also, how the fuck is Riot going to sell broadcast rights? Because it's damn clear that if they were going to sell it to ESPN, ESPN is not going to be OK with them broadcasting the games on YouTube/Twitch. So the only way broadcasting money is viable is if you have to pay for ESPN in order to watch LCS. Yeah, let me know how that'll go. Well, yes, that is the dispute: How much the teams should receive each year as compensation for playing in LCS. In the real-world hot dog eating example they don't pay salaries, etc, instead each individual negotiates an appearance fee in addition to the prize money (this is akin to how the more open DOTA and CS scenes operate, where teams do, in fact, negotiate appearance fees for attending most of the "lesser" tournaments). In your situation, if the players thought they weren't getting paid enough, they would unionize and, yes, band together to demand a share of overall hot dog sales. The issue is that, teams are not players, thus a team union would violate anti-trust laws. But, because of Riot's poorly-implemented system, a team union does need to exist to bring the revenue sharing into the real world. For all the clamoring people do for a players' union, it would be almost totally worthless in the Riot system. Re: Broadcast rights. The simplest thing is to see if twitch or youtube will offer significant sums to be the exclusive streaming platform. The Chinese streaming competition has teams earning about a million dollars+ for players from teams like WE, EDG, etc to stream on a particular platform, CLG's Azubu contract was similar. The LCS can do much better than that. ESPN, NBC, Fox or the like would probably put stipulations on a broadcast, but that is the give/take of selling broadcast rights. It is a necessary step to make the "esports division" self-sustainable. That they don't demonstrates its not the priority. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On August 24 2016 02:40 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't think Riot actually tells it as a sob story. It should be patently obvious to everyone in the world that LCS is a loss leader. The only question is, how should the people that participate in that loss leader be compensated? Suppose that Nathan's Hot Dogs is sponsoring a hot dog eating league. It pays regular salaries to competitors and organizes tournaments that pay out prize money. Should the hot dog eaters band together and demand a share of the overall sales of hot dogs? Isn't the real dispute just over how much their salaries / prize money should be? Also, how the fuck is Riot going to sell broadcast rights? Because it's damn clear that if they were going to sell it to ESPN, ESPN is not going to be OK with them broadcasting the games on YouTube/Twitch. So the only way broadcasting money is viable is if you have to pay for ESPN in order to watch LCS. Yeah, let me know how that'll go. If Nathan's Hot Dogs is the only producer of hot dogs in the world and the competition is one of their primary methods of motivating sales and specials of particular hotdogs, I think there's a pretty compelling argument for the competitors and teams receiving something tied to sales rather than flat compensation (especially the players). Especially when there's an ironclad rule preventing anyone besides Nathan's Hot Dogs from holding the events the competitors go to. I also think the artists making the skins should get bonuses when one of their skins do particularly well but I doubt that's the case, they're probably wage slaves. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14218 Posts
Now hes a buddist monk who will probably either become a meh split pusher or a tl secret op support pick. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
DARKNESSSSSSSssssssss | ||
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