|
On March 27 2016 14:29 dsyxelic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2016 14:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:10 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 13:43 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 11:34 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 11:06 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 08:32 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 08:25 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 08:11 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 07:59 Gahlo wrote:
[quote]
"removed FURY SWIPES No longer resets Nidalee's basic attack "
Reduced is supposed to be reduces, typo. ?? that's her pounce auto reset that is completely different from her hunted passive that lowers her pounce CD. have you ever played nid? lol Right, why would bursting a target ever be hurt by repeated auto resets being removed? I mean, the target is just going to sit there and let you do it after all. Have you ever played League? lol this is funny, you first thought that her pounce CD being reduced was removed and now you're backpedaling without admitting you were wrong about it. and you're still wrong because you completely don't understand what the pounce auto reset even is. it's only when you are already in melee form and you auto -> pounce -> auto. I mean, the target is just going to sit there and let you do it after all. that's exactly the point. the target is not going to stay in a stationary position so your damage is completely unaffected unless the target stays in a stationary position. (edit: however there are situations where the target stays still and decides to fight back or is cc'd hard enough so yes this is the 5% I talked about earlier where I said it would matter. but in general, this situation more often than not does not occur. meanwhile her clear was improved by the pounce damage buff, so it is a net gain at best, no loss at worst. basically any worries about nid being 'dead' should be dispelled which was the intent of my post) also that was a genuine question, dunno why you're so butthurt about it. if you haven't played nid I can understand why you couldn't tell the difference between the passive and what the patch notes say. but if you do that makes 0 sense how you wouldn't know. also you can't string those pounce auto resets because that is assuming A) you out run your opponent while auto attacking them (which isn't true) and B) you aren't switching to human form at all show me an example or clip of a person stringing more than 1 on a non stationary target from any previous patch and I will eat my words. It's a shame you don't know how to make an ass out of yourself. It's called a typo, shit happens. There's no point in me changing it after it gets quoted because you'll just continue being a prick about it. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. no the typo is not the issue here, I only realized that was a typo so ignore that portion about the patch notes. the issue here is you just don't understand how the pounce auto reset even works or how ganks even play out. pounce -> auto is not removed. you can still instantly auto after a pounce. auto -> pounce -> auto is removed, the first auto being in melee form. the scenario you described is still possible on this patch. that's why I'm saying it's totally irrelevant in most scenarios. if you have the pounce available to use as an auto reset and not to gapclose, that means that the opponent has given up running away (or is incapable of doing so). in most of those cases, the opponent is dead anyways. in the few % of cases that you actually need that damage for a difference in kill vs no kill (very rare) it will be relevant. That is your own misguided inference. who cares, point is you're wrong about nidalee. why don't you focus on the issue at hand instead of continuously expressing how hurt you are by me mistaking you were even more clueless about nid than you already are. And no, you can't auto reset on Pounce anymore, RTFPN. ? what is the point of this line. we already established that pounce doesn't have an auto reset, it's in the patch notes right there. are you mistaking pounce -> auto as an auto reset? because it's not, if there is no auto in the first place an auto reset is not necessary. auto -> pounce -> auto requires an auto reset since you need to cancel the auto attack timer from the first auto. pounce -> auto does not. unless again, you are assuming you are doing human form auto -> cougar form -> pounce -> auto, which is a moot point since the missing pounce auto reset wouldn't even be necessary because we have the form switch auto reset. tl;dr pounce -> auto is still in the game. auto -> pounce -> auto is not. This is what I've been saying for the last few posts. Learn to read. then what the fuck are you saying. are you agreeing with me that the 'nerf' is negligible then? my point was that auto->pounce->auto vs champions was a rare enough occurrence that the loss of it barely hurts nidalee if at all when compared to the buffs she got on her pounce for her clear. Show nested quote +With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. what is this then? you just said pounce -> auto is affected by this change. if you have been saying pounce -> auto is still in the game, how the fuck can you say pounce -> auto is affected by this change? ??? pounce -> auto is not affected at all whatsoever. only auto->pounce->auto learn to read your own posts maybe?
No, I'm saying that the auto reset being removed is going to be a bigger detriment than it is an improvement. While the patch is still young, there's already a .7% drop in her winrate in Plat+ from those changes.
Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot.
User was warned for this post
|
On March 27 2016 14:38 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2016 14:29 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 14:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:10 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 13:43 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 11:34 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 11:06 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 08:32 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 08:25 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 08:11 dsyxelic wrote:
[quote]
??
that's her pounce auto reset
that is completely different from her hunted passive that lowers her pounce CD.
have you ever played nid? lol Right, why would bursting a target ever be hurt by repeated auto resets being removed? I mean, the target is just going to sit there and let you do it after all. Have you ever played League? lol this is funny, you first thought that her pounce CD being reduced was removed and now you're backpedaling without admitting you were wrong about it. and you're still wrong because you completely don't understand what the pounce auto reset even is. it's only when you are already in melee form and you auto -> pounce -> auto. I mean, the target is just going to sit there and let you do it after all. that's exactly the point. the target is not going to stay in a stationary position so your damage is completely unaffected unless the target stays in a stationary position. (edit: however there are situations where the target stays still and decides to fight back or is cc'd hard enough so yes this is the 5% I talked about earlier where I said it would matter. but in general, this situation more often than not does not occur. meanwhile her clear was improved by the pounce damage buff, so it is a net gain at best, no loss at worst. basically any worries about nid being 'dead' should be dispelled which was the intent of my post) also that was a genuine question, dunno why you're so butthurt about it. if you haven't played nid I can understand why you couldn't tell the difference between the passive and what the patch notes say. but if you do that makes 0 sense how you wouldn't know. also you can't string those pounce auto resets because that is assuming A) you out run your opponent while auto attacking them (which isn't true) and B) you aren't switching to human form at all show me an example or clip of a person stringing more than 1 on a non stationary target from any previous patch and I will eat my words. It's a shame you don't know how to make an ass out of yourself. It's called a typo, shit happens. There's no point in me changing it after it gets quoted because you'll just continue being a prick about it. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. no the typo is not the issue here, I only realized that was a typo so ignore that portion about the patch notes. the issue here is you just don't understand how the pounce auto reset even works or how ganks even play out. pounce -> auto is not removed. you can still instantly auto after a pounce. auto -> pounce -> auto is removed, the first auto being in melee form. the scenario you described is still possible on this patch. that's why I'm saying it's totally irrelevant in most scenarios. if you have the pounce available to use as an auto reset and not to gapclose, that means that the opponent has given up running away (or is incapable of doing so). in most of those cases, the opponent is dead anyways. in the few % of cases that you actually need that damage for a difference in kill vs no kill (very rare) it will be relevant. That is your own misguided inference. who cares, point is you're wrong about nidalee. why don't you focus on the issue at hand instead of continuously expressing how hurt you are by me mistaking you were even more clueless about nid than you already are. And no, you can't auto reset on Pounce anymore, RTFPN. ? what is the point of this line. we already established that pounce doesn't have an auto reset, it's in the patch notes right there. are you mistaking pounce -> auto as an auto reset? because it's not, if there is no auto in the first place an auto reset is not necessary. auto -> pounce -> auto requires an auto reset since you need to cancel the auto attack timer from the first auto. pounce -> auto does not. unless again, you are assuming you are doing human form auto -> cougar form -> pounce -> auto, which is a moot point since the missing pounce auto reset wouldn't even be necessary because we have the form switch auto reset. tl;dr pounce -> auto is still in the game. auto -> pounce -> auto is not. This is what I've been saying for the last few posts. Learn to read. then what the fuck are you saying. are you agreeing with me that the 'nerf' is negligible then? my point was that auto->pounce->auto vs champions was a rare enough occurrence that the loss of it barely hurts nidalee if at all when compared to the buffs she got on her pounce for her clear. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. what is this then? you just said pounce -> auto is affected by this change. if you have been saying pounce -> auto is still in the game, how the fuck can you say pounce -> auto is affected by this change? ??? pounce -> auto is not affected at all whatsoever. only auto->pounce->auto learn to read your own posts maybe? No, I'm saying that the auto reset being removed is going to be a bigger detriment than it is an improvement. While the patch is still young, there's already a .7% drop in her winrate in Plat+ from those changes. Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot.
You've still yet to prove how the pounce auto reset is used properly in a gank, let alone consistently enough for it to outweigh the benefits of a faster clear and more pounce damage.
I've already stated that there are certain scenarios where the pounce auto reset will be missed, but my point is that it is rare enough that it does not outweigh the benefits of the pounce buff. Please address this point first.
Not only is the .7% drop in winrate laughable, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion and I already stated multiple times before in the previous thread that this is most definitely a huge nerf to bad nidalees. The clear alone takes dozens of trials to get down to an acceptable level. My friend has done over 3 hours of nid clears since the patch was released and he can barely get it within ~10s of theshy's. I myself am struggling to get near that consistently as well and have spent more time on nid clears than I have on any other champ. The difference between a good, practiced nidalee and your average nidalee player is immense. And seeing how much more volatile nidalee's clear became (more reliant on pounce, no more root) it is no surprise at all that most nidalee players are getting fucked by the clear. + Show Spoiler +Also please don't try to say plat is a great elo or anything by citing statistics again. I've seen more god awful nidalees than not all the way up to diamond 1/masters soloq and even pro play. Please refer to Procxin's first nidalee game where he had the shittiest nid clear I've seen in pro play ever.
If you're trying to prove me wrong by showing me nid's winrate dropped by .7%, sorry I'm not surprised as at all, in fact I expected it. This is of course completely ignoring how stupid citing that statistic is.
Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot.
? Again, what is the point of this. Why are you interpreting my argument as "auto resets are useless" instead of "auto-pounce-auto is so rare to the point that it's negligible"?
Most ganks do end in autos, especially in human form where you unload your full combo and then switch to human form for the auto reset and last few autos as they try to run away + trying to dodge your next human Q that is coming up.
This however is completely different from the auto->pounce->auto sequence I've been talking about.
How about this, find me a game where auto-pounce-auto was the difference between a kill or not. That itself is super rare. Definitely possible to find, but you won't have an easy time. Let alone a game where it happens multiple times and/or a string of multiple games where it happens. It is simply that rare. If you do however manage to prove me wrong on this point I have no choice but to admit that I'm wrong.
|
On March 27 2016 14:54 dsyxelic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2016 14:38 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:29 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 14:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:10 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 13:43 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 11:34 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 11:06 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 08:32 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 08:25 Gahlo wrote:
[quote]
Right, why would bursting a target ever be hurt by repeated auto resets being removed? I mean, the target is just going to sit there and let you do it after all.
Have you ever played League? lol this is funny, you first thought that her pounce CD being reduced was removed and now you're backpedaling without admitting you were wrong about it. and you're still wrong because you completely don't understand what the pounce auto reset even is. it's only when you are already in melee form and you auto -> pounce -> auto. I mean, the target is just going to sit there and let you do it after all. that's exactly the point. the target is not going to stay in a stationary position so your damage is completely unaffected unless the target stays in a stationary position. (edit: however there are situations where the target stays still and decides to fight back or is cc'd hard enough so yes this is the 5% I talked about earlier where I said it would matter. but in general, this situation more often than not does not occur. meanwhile her clear was improved by the pounce damage buff, so it is a net gain at best, no loss at worst. basically any worries about nid being 'dead' should be dispelled which was the intent of my post) also that was a genuine question, dunno why you're so butthurt about it. if you haven't played nid I can understand why you couldn't tell the difference between the passive and what the patch notes say. but if you do that makes 0 sense how you wouldn't know. also you can't string those pounce auto resets because that is assuming A) you out run your opponent while auto attacking them (which isn't true) and B) you aren't switching to human form at all show me an example or clip of a person stringing more than 1 on a non stationary target from any previous patch and I will eat my words. It's a shame you don't know how to make an ass out of yourself. It's called a typo, shit happens. There's no point in me changing it after it gets quoted because you'll just continue being a prick about it. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. no the typo is not the issue here, I only realized that was a typo so ignore that portion about the patch notes. the issue here is you just don't understand how the pounce auto reset even works or how ganks even play out. pounce -> auto is not removed. you can still instantly auto after a pounce. auto -> pounce -> auto is removed, the first auto being in melee form. the scenario you described is still possible on this patch. that's why I'm saying it's totally irrelevant in most scenarios. if you have the pounce available to use as an auto reset and not to gapclose, that means that the opponent has given up running away (or is incapable of doing so). in most of those cases, the opponent is dead anyways. in the few % of cases that you actually need that damage for a difference in kill vs no kill (very rare) it will be relevant. That is your own misguided inference. who cares, point is you're wrong about nidalee. why don't you focus on the issue at hand instead of continuously expressing how hurt you are by me mistaking you were even more clueless about nid than you already are. And no, you can't auto reset on Pounce anymore, RTFPN. ? what is the point of this line. we already established that pounce doesn't have an auto reset, it's in the patch notes right there. are you mistaking pounce -> auto as an auto reset? because it's not, if there is no auto in the first place an auto reset is not necessary. auto -> pounce -> auto requires an auto reset since you need to cancel the auto attack timer from the first auto. pounce -> auto does not. unless again, you are assuming you are doing human form auto -> cougar form -> pounce -> auto, which is a moot point since the missing pounce auto reset wouldn't even be necessary because we have the form switch auto reset. tl;dr pounce -> auto is still in the game. auto -> pounce -> auto is not. This is what I've been saying for the last few posts. Learn to read. then what the fuck are you saying. are you agreeing with me that the 'nerf' is negligible then? my point was that auto->pounce->auto vs champions was a rare enough occurrence that the loss of it barely hurts nidalee if at all when compared to the buffs she got on her pounce for her clear. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. what is this then? you just said pounce -> auto is affected by this change. if you have been saying pounce -> auto is still in the game, how the fuck can you say pounce -> auto is affected by this change? ??? pounce -> auto is not affected at all whatsoever. only auto->pounce->auto learn to read your own posts maybe? No, I'm saying that the auto reset being removed is going to be a bigger detriment than it is an improvement. While the patch is still young, there's already a .7% drop in her winrate in Plat+ from those changes. Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot. You've still yet to prove how the pounce auto reset is used properly in a gank, let alone consistently enough for it to outweigh the benefits of a faster clear and more pounce damage. I've already stated that there are certain scenarios where the pounce auto reset will be missed, but my point is that it is rare enough that it does not outweigh the benefits of the pounce buff. Please address this point first. Not only is the .7% drop in winrate laughable, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion as I already stated multiple times before in the previous thread that this is most definitely a huge nerf to bad nidalees. The clear alone takes dozens of trials to get down to an acceptable level. My friend has done over 3 hours of nid clears since the patch was released and he can barely get it within ~10s of theshy's. The difference between a good, practiced nidalee and your average nidalee player is immense. And seeing how much more volatile nidalee's clear became (more reliant on pounce, no more root) it is no surprise at all that most nidalee players are getting fucked by the clear. + Show Spoiler +Also please don't try to say plat is a great elo or anything by citing statistics again. I've seen more god awful nidalees than not all the way up to diamond 1/masters soloq and even pro play. Please refer to Procxin's first nidalee game where he had the shittiest nid clear I've seen in pro play ever. If you're trying to prove me wrong by showing me nid's winrate dropped by .7%, sorry I'm not surprised as at all, in fact I expected it. This is of course completely ignoring how stupid citing that statistic is. Show nested quote +Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot. ? Again, what is the point of this. Why are you interpreting my argument as "auto resets are useless" instead of "auto-pounce-auto is so rare to the point that it's negligible"? Most ganks do end in autos, especially in human form where you unload your full combo and then switch to human form for the auto reset and last few autos as they try to run away + trying to dodge your next human Q that is coming up.
That's funny, because I very plainly did earlier and the fact that her winrate took a dip while she is supposedly "buffed" by the changes is laughable. You literally can't say it outweighs the benefits when gameplay has said otherwise. The average games of a player on Nidalee with those numbers is 50+, which is just out of the top quarter when it comes to junglers when it comes to gameplay density.
|
On March 27 2016 15:04 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2016 14:54 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 14:38 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:29 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 14:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:10 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 13:43 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 11:34 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 11:06 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 08:32 dsyxelic wrote:
[quote]
lol this is funny, you first thought that her pounce CD being reduced was removed and now you're backpedaling without admitting you were wrong about it.
and you're still wrong because you completely don't understand what the pounce auto reset even is.
it's only when you are already in melee form and you auto -> pounce -> auto.
[quote]
that's exactly the point. the target is not going to stay in a stationary position so your damage is completely unaffected unless the target stays in a stationary position. (edit: however there are situations where the target stays still and decides to fight back or is cc'd hard enough so yes this is the 5% I talked about earlier where I said it would matter. but in general, this situation more often than not does not occur. meanwhile her clear was improved by the pounce damage buff, so it is a net gain at best, no loss at worst. basically any worries about nid being 'dead' should be dispelled which was the intent of my post)
also that was a genuine question, dunno why you're so butthurt about it. if you haven't played nid I can understand why you couldn't tell the difference between the passive and what the patch notes say. but if you do that makes 0 sense how you wouldn't know.
also you can't string those pounce auto resets because that is assuming A) you out run your opponent while auto attacking them (which isn't true) and B) you aren't switching to human form at all
show me an example or clip of a person stringing more than 1 on a non stationary target from any previous patch and I will eat my words. It's a shame you don't know how to make an ass out of yourself. It's called a typo, shit happens. There's no point in me changing it after it gets quoted because you'll just continue being a prick about it. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. no the typo is not the issue here, I only realized that was a typo so ignore that portion about the patch notes. the issue here is you just don't understand how the pounce auto reset even works or how ganks even play out. pounce -> auto is not removed. you can still instantly auto after a pounce. auto -> pounce -> auto is removed, the first auto being in melee form. the scenario you described is still possible on this patch. that's why I'm saying it's totally irrelevant in most scenarios. if you have the pounce available to use as an auto reset and not to gapclose, that means that the opponent has given up running away (or is incapable of doing so). in most of those cases, the opponent is dead anyways. in the few % of cases that you actually need that damage for a difference in kill vs no kill (very rare) it will be relevant. That is your own misguided inference. who cares, point is you're wrong about nidalee. why don't you focus on the issue at hand instead of continuously expressing how hurt you are by me mistaking you were even more clueless about nid than you already are. And no, you can't auto reset on Pounce anymore, RTFPN. ? what is the point of this line. we already established that pounce doesn't have an auto reset, it's in the patch notes right there. are you mistaking pounce -> auto as an auto reset? because it's not, if there is no auto in the first place an auto reset is not necessary. auto -> pounce -> auto requires an auto reset since you need to cancel the auto attack timer from the first auto. pounce -> auto does not. unless again, you are assuming you are doing human form auto -> cougar form -> pounce -> auto, which is a moot point since the missing pounce auto reset wouldn't even be necessary because we have the form switch auto reset. tl;dr pounce -> auto is still in the game. auto -> pounce -> auto is not. This is what I've been saying for the last few posts. Learn to read. then what the fuck are you saying. are you agreeing with me that the 'nerf' is negligible then? my point was that auto->pounce->auto vs champions was a rare enough occurrence that the loss of it barely hurts nidalee if at all when compared to the buffs she got on her pounce for her clear. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. what is this then? you just said pounce -> auto is affected by this change. if you have been saying pounce -> auto is still in the game, how the fuck can you say pounce -> auto is affected by this change? ??? pounce -> auto is not affected at all whatsoever. only auto->pounce->auto learn to read your own posts maybe? No, I'm saying that the auto reset being removed is going to be a bigger detriment than it is an improvement. While the patch is still young, there's already a .7% drop in her winrate in Plat+ from those changes. Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot. You've still yet to prove how the pounce auto reset is used properly in a gank, let alone consistently enough for it to outweigh the benefits of a faster clear and more pounce damage. I've already stated that there are certain scenarios where the pounce auto reset will be missed, but my point is that it is rare enough that it does not outweigh the benefits of the pounce buff. Please address this point first. Not only is the .7% drop in winrate laughable, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion as I already stated multiple times before in the previous thread that this is most definitely a huge nerf to bad nidalees. The clear alone takes dozens of trials to get down to an acceptable level. My friend has done over 3 hours of nid clears since the patch was released and he can barely get it within ~10s of theshy's. The difference between a good, practiced nidalee and your average nidalee player is immense. And seeing how much more volatile nidalee's clear became (more reliant on pounce, no more root) it is no surprise at all that most nidalee players are getting fucked by the clear. + Show Spoiler +Also please don't try to say plat is a great elo or anything by citing statistics again. I've seen more god awful nidalees than not all the way up to diamond 1/masters soloq and even pro play. Please refer to Procxin's first nidalee game where he had the shittiest nid clear I've seen in pro play ever. If you're trying to prove me wrong by showing me nid's winrate dropped by .7%, sorry I'm not surprised as at all, in fact I expected it. This is of course completely ignoring how stupid citing that statistic is. Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot. ? Again, what is the point of this. Why are you interpreting my argument as "auto resets are useless" instead of "auto-pounce-auto is so rare to the point that it's negligible"? Most ganks do end in autos, especially in human form where you unload your full combo and then switch to human form for the auto reset and last few autos as they try to run away + trying to dodge your next human Q that is coming up. That's funny, because I very plainly did earlier and the fact that her winrate took a dip while she is supposedly "buffed" by the changes is laughable. You literally can't say it outweighs the benefits when gameplay has said otherwise. The average games of a player on Nidalee with those numbers is 50+, which is just out of the top quarter when it comes to junglers when it comes to gameplay density.
1) plainly did what?
2) 0.7% what a dip, wew
3) if you honestly think that 0.7% dip after 3 days of a patch proves you right, you go take that internet argument victory, I'm out then rofl
4) I said near the same and/or buffed (or thats what some nid mains I've talked to said). so even if that statistic was 100% accurate and she really did get 'worse by' 0.7%, that falls in line with what I expected. Like I said, the whole point was to just say that the changes were not even close to killing nid.
5) If you honestly think any player who plays 50 games of nidalee is a competent nidalee player I've got a bridge to sell you. I'd doubt most players would even be able to consistently clear well after 50 custom game runs. I've played over 50 games of nidalee every season (always a top champion across my accounts) and I've only gone from shitter->slightly less shit->mediocre->almost competent.
6) Is this your most compelling argument? I'm confused about whether you're just putting low effort into your posts or if this is actually the main argument you're going with.
|
On March 27 2016 15:11 dsyxelic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2016 15:04 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:54 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 14:38 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:29 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 14:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 14:10 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 13:43 Gahlo wrote:On March 27 2016 11:34 dsyxelic wrote:On March 27 2016 11:06 Gahlo wrote:
[quote]
It's a shame you don't know how to make an ass out of yourself. It's called a typo, shit happens. There's no point in me changing it after it gets quoted because you'll just continue being a prick about it.
With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. no the typo is not the issue here, I only realized that was a typo so ignore that portion about the patch notes. the issue here is you just don't understand how the pounce auto reset even works or how ganks even play out. pounce -> auto is not removed. you can still instantly auto after a pounce. auto -> pounce -> auto is removed, the first auto being in melee form. the scenario you described is still possible on this patch. that's why I'm saying it's totally irrelevant in most scenarios. if you have the pounce available to use as an auto reset and not to gapclose, that means that the opponent has given up running away (or is incapable of doing so). in most of those cases, the opponent is dead anyways. in the few % of cases that you actually need that damage for a difference in kill vs no kill (very rare) it will be relevant. That is your own misguided inference. who cares, point is you're wrong about nidalee. why don't you focus on the issue at hand instead of continuously expressing how hurt you are by me mistaking you were even more clueless about nid than you already are. And no, you can't auto reset on Pounce anymore, RTFPN. ? what is the point of this line. we already established that pounce doesn't have an auto reset, it's in the patch notes right there. are you mistaking pounce -> auto as an auto reset? because it's not, if there is no auto in the first place an auto reset is not necessary. auto -> pounce -> auto requires an auto reset since you need to cancel the auto attack timer from the first auto. pounce -> auto does not. unless again, you are assuming you are doing human form auto -> cougar form -> pounce -> auto, which is a moot point since the missing pounce auto reset wouldn't even be necessary because we have the form switch auto reset. tl;dr pounce -> auto is still in the game. auto -> pounce -> auto is not. This is what I've been saying for the last few posts. Learn to read. then what the fuck are you saying. are you agreeing with me that the 'nerf' is negligible then? my point was that auto->pounce->auto vs champions was a rare enough occurrence that the loss of it barely hurts nidalee if at all when compared to the buffs she got on her pounce for her clear. With the base CD being as low as it is and the cd refund being as big as it is, unless the initial combo is enough to finish the job then it only makes sense to Pounce > Auto afterwards. That Pounce > Auto will be adversely effected by this change and will cause more ganks to fail than the 30 damage boost that the pair of pounces will provide. what is this then? you just said pounce -> auto is affected by this change. if you have been saying pounce -> auto is still in the game, how the fuck can you say pounce -> auto is affected by this change? ??? pounce -> auto is not affected at all whatsoever. only auto->pounce->auto learn to read your own posts maybe? No, I'm saying that the auto reset being removed is going to be a bigger detriment than it is an improvement. While the patch is still young, there's already a .7% drop in her winrate in Plat+ from those changes. Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot. You've still yet to prove how the pounce auto reset is used properly in a gank, let alone consistently enough for it to outweigh the benefits of a faster clear and more pounce damage. I've already stated that there are certain scenarios where the pounce auto reset will be missed, but my point is that it is rare enough that it does not outweigh the benefits of the pounce buff. Please address this point first. Not only is the .7% drop in winrate laughable, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion as I already stated multiple times before in the previous thread that this is most definitely a huge nerf to bad nidalees. The clear alone takes dozens of trials to get down to an acceptable level. My friend has done over 3 hours of nid clears since the patch was released and he can barely get it within ~10s of theshy's. The difference between a good, practiced nidalee and your average nidalee player is immense. And seeing how much more volatile nidalee's clear became (more reliant on pounce, no more root) it is no surprise at all that most nidalee players are getting fucked by the clear. + Show Spoiler +Also please don't try to say plat is a great elo or anything by citing statistics again. I've seen more god awful nidalees than not all the way up to diamond 1/masters soloq and even pro play. Please refer to Procxin's first nidalee game where he had the shittiest nid clear I've seen in pro play ever. If you're trying to prove me wrong by showing me nid's winrate dropped by .7%, sorry I'm not surprised as at all, in fact I expected it. This is of course completely ignoring how stupid citing that statistic is. Anyway, we're going to play a little game. Show me a gank combo that isn't intentionally wasteful on Nidalee that doesn't end in an auto, and I'll show you why I have you the benefit of the doubt for not being an idiot. ? Again, what is the point of this. Why are you interpreting my argument as "auto resets are useless" instead of "auto-pounce-auto is so rare to the point that it's negligible"? Most ganks do end in autos, especially in human form where you unload your full combo and then switch to human form for the auto reset and last few autos as they try to run away + trying to dodge your next human Q that is coming up. That's funny, because I very plainly did earlier and the fact that her winrate took a dip while she is supposedly "buffed" by the changes is laughable. You literally can't say it outweighs the benefits when gameplay has said otherwise. The average games of a player on Nidalee with those numbers is 50+, which is just out of the top quarter when it comes to junglers when it comes to gameplay density. 1) plainly did what? 2) 0.7% what a dip, wew 3) if you honestly think that 0.7% dip after 3 days of a patch proves you right, you go take that internet argument victory, I'm out then rofl 4) I said near the same and/or buffed (or thats what some nid mains I've talked to said). so even if that statistic was 100% accurate and she really did get 'worse by' 0.7%, that falls in line with what I expected. Like I said, the whole point was to just say that the changes were not even close to killing nid. 5) If you honestly think any player who plays 50 games of nidalee is a competent nidalee player I've got a bridge to sell you. I'd doubt most players would even be able to consistently clear well after 50 custom game runs. I've played over 50 games of nidalee every season (always a top champion across my accounts) and I've only gone from shitter->slightly less shit->mediocre->almost competent. 6) Is this your most compelling argument? I'm confused about whether you're just putting low effort into your posts or if this is actually the main argument you're going with.
1) I have some bad news, I think you have amnesia.
2) Considering the nerf had countermeasures, it is relevant.
3) First, I did say the patch was young. Second, I don't you having anything to back you up other than "because I say so."
4) I never said it was going to kill nid. Perhaps we're both wrong with what we think the other perceives the changes will do to her.
5) That's an average of 50+ ranked Plat+ games on her. It doesn't matter if they played 1 or 10000000000000000 custom games, none of them will show up in that statistic. Her play rate has cut nearly in half this patch, meaning a lot of the bad Nids are jumping ship and yet she's still seeing a dip.
|
1) Or you drop a one liner without stating what exactly it was referring to. If you're referring to proving that auto-pounce-auto is not a rare happening, no you did not do that.
2) I already accounted for a potential drop in performance by the common nidalee player. Nothing newsworthy here.
3) Common sense + actual experience playing/watching nid + lack of any evidence on your part that auto-pounce-auto is anything more than a rare happening. Meanwhile you just cite a 0.7% drop in winrate on a 3 day patch which doesn't even dispute my point in the first place and think it has any merit just because you managed to admit in advance that it's a bad statistic to cite.
4) I know, but that was my whole intent of the post - saying how the perceived nerfs were barely relevant. If anything your 0.7% statistic backs me up there. I'm saying that you're not disputing my point at all even if you think you are. You are supporting it.
5) Which is exactly why that statistic is near meaningless. Also you're missing a lot with that 50+ statistic. Not only is it based on 2014-2015 games played, it doesn't show how it affected the winrate for those with that many games. For all we know, the shit nidalees got even worse and lowered the winrate to what it is now while the better nidalees with more experience raised it. It's all speculation.
Also for a champion with such a low overall winrate (49.23) her winrate with 125+ game players aka nid mains is bonkers (57.89). That is one of the biggest 0-5 games played and 125+ games winrate difference I've seen on a champ. If anything the better nids probably got better (wow better clear!).
edit: wow what do you know, nidalees with 50+ games had their winrates increased this patch. so according to your champion.gg stats, it backs me up in that the nerf was pretty much negligible and did not outweigh the buff in clear time for those who could consistently pull off proper clears.
5-15 went from 49.32 -> 47.36
15-50 went from 50.77 -> 49.23
50-125 went from 52.4 -> 52.41
125+ went from 56.44 -> 57.89
6.5 nid stats source: https://web.archive.org/web/20160313072434/http://www.champion.gg/champion/Nidalee
not that I think these stats are actually that important, but quite funny how it backs me up instead. Also this is assuming that all 50+ game nids are good (they aren't) and many bad nid players quitting her but using your assumption it still backs me up lol.
|
|
|
Goddamnit, now Sion is popping up in every other game on account of the new skin coming out and qtpie just let slip that he's OP so that's only gonna get worse. Soon the forums will be awash in cries and wailing and then the nerf train will come into station.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On March 27 2016 22:29 JimmiC wrote:
Could you two take this to pm it's been 24 hours of you two measuring epeens no one else has chimed in and the circular conversation is boring. We get it you disagree if you want to continue pm please.
Au contraire, I think this is extremely valuable discussion. Seeing people repeatedly shit on for being a) extremely wrong and b) trying to disingenuously backtrack while c) throwing out insults to distract from their own wrongness, will hopefully discourage other people from making extremely wrong posts in the future.
Let's not forget that Nidalee was originally scheduled for even harsher nerfs, before her fanbase popped up here and on Reddit crying that those nerfs were going to gut her. So Riot was forced to backtrack, and the end result is that Nidalee's "nerfs" don't really hurt her at all, and even buff her a bit to boot. I wish all my champs could be "nerfed" like that.
On March 27 2016 15:29 Gahlo wrote:
4) I never said it was going to kill nid. Perhaps we're both wrong with what we think the other perceives the changes will do to her.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/505488-patch-65-less-naut-y-things-general-discussion?page=11#214
|
Gahlo, how many games of Nidalee have you played? Cause it's really starting to sound like you're just armchair analyzing here with no actual gameplay experience. You claim her ganks were what's being hit when auto reset mechanic was mostly for clears and you almost NEVER see it used in an actual gank. Not in ranked, not in norms, not in pro play. Maybe against bots, I don't fcking know about that but you're pretty much in the wrong here if you thought if you thought her ganks got a big hit from this patch.
|
qtpie swears on aurelion sol support, sweeet diggity dig,
|
related-
the friend I was talking about who was literally spamming nid clears for hours made it on front page of reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4c62ie/66_nidalee_the_shystyle_clear_304/
and that can be optimized even more with better aa resets and micro. simply hitting all pounces and kiting decently gets you a really nice clear.
though not bad considering theshy's clear that was on frontpage last time on previous patch was 3:02 and finished with much less health. he also only had like 1 mistake I believe (missed 1 minion with pounce) and ran MR. friend ran scaling CDR so not a huge boost, but still worth mentioning nonetheless.
|
I'm enjoying Aurelion Sol a lot - very interesting champion, and learning to use his passive properly is fun. Laning seems pretty brutal, because (as posters in this thread have pointed out), his Q can't be detonated at point blank range, which makes shaking off Yasuo/Zed/Fizz/Talon nearly impossible.
Despite bad laning/feeding, it doesn't seem to matter as his team fight potential is so high. Tonnes of damage and CC...also don't underestimate his ult, it's another huge chunk of damage which you can land on 2-3 people, and is basically undodgeable.
|
The AA reset being removed from Nid adversely affect her early clear the most, but the straight dmg buff pretty much compensates for that. Basically Riot just made the champ easier to play while lowering the power level by a miniscule amount (but now the champ is easier to play).
Her passive rooting monsters is a meme, you barely use that to kite anyways if you're going for super fast clears. It mostly affects her ability to quickly do the scuttle but if you're as the enemy jungler are forced into being a pansy in your jungle because she's dicking you and your lanes then it doesn't really matter.
Graves' ability to do scuttle was also severely nerfed but he's still a top jungle pick in soloq and competitive and it looks like these Nid changes are basically a tiny power tune but not anywhere close to removing her from the game like the initial harshest PBE nerfs.
|
Ouch.
Lux winrate after nerf dropped from nearly 54% to nearly 49%.
Went from 2nd place winrate mid to 26th.
|
On March 27 2016 22:29 JimmiC wrote:
Could you two take this to pm it's been 24 hours of you two measuring epeens no one else has chimed in and the circular conversation is boring. We get it you disagree if you want to continue pm please.
Seems rare on here that someone actually knows what they're talking about, and has a lot of experience with a champion decides to argue with someone, it's refreshing to see
|
On March 27 2016 23:58 Osmoses wrote:
Goddamnit, now Sion is popping up in every other game on account of the new skin coming out and qtpie just let slip that he's OP so that's only gonna get worse. Soon the forums will be awash in cries and wailing and then the nerf train will come into station.
The OP part likely just comes from him being super lane dominant against most of the common picks right now, and being able to convert the huge HP into massive grasp procs.
|
Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Well, that's pretty standard. Maokai got his MR/lvl stuff back only because new Meowkai skin is upcoming ^_^
|
So after a day of soloq(climbing slowly up to d4), playing against some poor silver friends, and reading PBE notes.
warlord's is getting nerfed, rightfully so(double nerf for ranged yay). It's kinda silly atm.
Yi is still stupid(mostly devourer+double hit interaction with onhit/attack effects). Maybe a BAT nerf? While last patch nerfed sterakk's on him, maw is still ridic good.
Irelia buffs inc? Probably still won't be good because tank meta, but it's nice.
Sivir is a bit silly. Critting some poor fool for 300 later on in the game because he stood too close to creeps a screen away doesn't feel right.
|
Australia18228 Posts
I think a lot of players still don't know how op Warlords is.
People are still going Fervors on Sivir when Warlords lets you go ER->Shiv/PD->IE while still having sustain
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
