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On March 18 2014 17:10 Omnishroud wrote:
I have such a love/hate relationship with top, i love playing it, unless i have to face darius/tryndamere/teemo/jax, then i just sit and cry at my tower for 20 minutes and those picks are all thats ever fucking picked i swear to you.
Any tips on how not to cry vs those?
Darius is gonna be a pain if you're playing a melee champion. Generally speaking, all you can do is to just play like a pussy and get what farm you can get then outscale him. Also, stack HP not armor against Darius. Armor won't do shit. If you're playing a ranged champ it's all about toeing the line and not getting pulled.
Tryndamere sucks early. You can bully him hard with virtually anybody. He gets annoying once he finishes 1~2 items and has his ult. Even then it's usually not a problem for the fotm top laners to deal with his splitpush. Stack armor gg
Teemo is basically the same thing as Darius except with more poke but less kill potential. However, he's more prone to all-ins at your power spikes. For example, level 6 as Shyvana, etc...
Jax can be bullied pretty hard pre-6. Post 6 he can be a problem if you're not ahead. Ask for jungle help. Even then, he has a reasonably significant ramp-up time compared to the fotm top laners so try to make shit happen elsewhere while he's still farming up his Bork/Triforce.
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On March 18 2014 17:06 Kinie wrote:
For what it's worth, I think that the TL LoL GD chat can be toxic, though it's probably close to 80-85% of the time you can engage someone (or someones) in an actual conversation about a particular topic/idea. It all boils down to two things:
1. How you phrase your idea/topic, and
2. How you respond to it.
Given enough time I feel most people here will try to write up a reasonable response, but seeing as we all have varying degrees of this thing called a "real life," not everyone can give the time needed for such a response, so this person writes a rather curt, possibly rude, response. And the person who proposed the idea takes it as an assault on their character and feels the need to defend themselves. And this is how things get toxic.
All I am suggesting is to take time with any reply, and if you don't, say the idea is good or bad, but you will expand upon it in a later post when you have free time for it.
tl;dr version: don't get your panties in a bunch if you propose an idea and multiple people poo-poo on it.
As for the talk about jungle Diana, her issue is that she can't engage too well pre-6, her shield got nerfed a ton so you can't do a Riven-esque build of full damage and have the shield keep you alive when you dive with your Q-R, and while Lich Bane is good on her, I'd probably build it after getting Spectral Wraith and another offensive AP item, like a Rabadons, Rylei's, Zhonyas or Void Staff. Personally, if she could build Tear any faster and have the AA be the second offensive item I think that would give her the "tankiness" needed to be a viable jungler again. Maybe with a build path of Machete + pots > Spirit Stone > Tear > Wraith/Golem > AA > Lich Bane > Rabadons, with the AA turning into a Seraph's around the time Lich Bane completes.
I don't see why RoA is a terrible item on her personally. I build it the odd times I play her.
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Those are some pretty massive buffs, teleport ganks going to be real terror now.
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oh my god distortion looks awesome
Heal giving an MS buff (in exchange for not healing your party)? interesting
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On March 18 2014 17:28 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 17:06 Kinie wrote:
For what it's worth, I think that the TL LoL GD chat can be toxic, though it's probably close to 80-85% of the time you can engage someone (or someones) in an actual conversation about a particular topic/idea. It all boils down to two things:
1. How you phrase your idea/topic, and
2. How you respond to it.
Given enough time I feel most people here will try to write up a reasonable response, but seeing as we all have varying degrees of this thing called a "real life," not everyone can give the time needed for such a response, so this person writes a rather curt, possibly rude, response. And the person who proposed the idea takes it as an assault on their character and feels the need to defend themselves. And this is how things get toxic.
All I am suggesting is to take time with any reply, and if you don't, say the idea is good or bad, but you will expand upon it in a later post when you have free time for it.
tl;dr version: don't get your panties in a bunch if you propose an idea and multiple people poo-poo on it.
As for the talk about jungle Diana, her issue is that she can't engage too well pre-6, her shield got nerfed a ton so you can't do a Riven-esque build of full damage and have the shield keep you alive when you dive with your Q-R, and while Lich Bane is good on her, I'd probably build it after getting Spectral Wraith and another offensive AP item, like a Rabadons, Rylei's, Zhonyas or Void Staff. Personally, if she could build Tear any faster and have the AA be the second offensive item I think that would give her the "tankiness" needed to be a viable jungler again. Maybe with a build path of Machete + pots > Spirit Stone > Tear > Wraith/Golem > AA > Lich Bane > Rabadons, with the AA turning into a Seraph's around the time Lich Bane completes. I don't see why RoA is a terrible item on her personally. I build it the odd times I play her.
I am not a fan of RoA on her specifically because it takes too long to build up, as it's an item meant for the game to get long, where-as she wants to power spike on her first, second and potentially third items. Assuming she's in the jungle and you get Wraith and then Zhonyas, that's at least 5260 gold, but once those items are done they give her the things you want out of her: survivability and power (Wraith for Conservation passive and AP, Zhonyas for the active and AP to let her spells do more damage and defense to take a hit from an ADC at similar gold). Wraith and RoA is 4800 gold and gives some survivability in the form of HP, but the benefit is less in my opinion. Below is the numbers of what those items give in terms of raw stats.
Wraith + Zhonyas: 170 AP, 10% CDR, 50 Armor, Conservation passive, Zhonyas active.
Wraith + RoA; 110 AP, 10% CDR, 450 HP, 450 MP at start; 10 minutes later it's 130 AP, 10% CDR, 630 HP, 650 MP, and Conservation passive throughout.
It takes time for the RoA line to get gold-efficient where-as the Zhonyas line gets gold efficient within a couple completed sweeps of the jungle to use your stacks, and the active can mean the difference in a team fight where you Q-R-E into Zhonyas, they take a half second to a full second to stop attacking you, you pop out and W-Q-R-R and by then the team fight will probably be won in your teams favor if the engagement is ideal.
It has potential, but I think I'd rather build it if I played Diana mid, like get Tear + RoA then go into Lich Bane + Zhonyas + Rabadons and finish off AA somewhere along the way.
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What is wrong with the PBE website?
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/7zTlI.png)
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On March 18 2014 18:02 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 17:28 JazzVortical wrote:On March 18 2014 17:06 Kinie wrote:
For what it's worth, I think that the TL LoL GD chat can be toxic, though it's probably close to 80-85% of the time you can engage someone (or someones) in an actual conversation about a particular topic/idea. It all boils down to two things:
1. How you phrase your idea/topic, and
2. How you respond to it.
Given enough time I feel most people here will try to write up a reasonable response, but seeing as we all have varying degrees of this thing called a "real life," not everyone can give the time needed for such a response, so this person writes a rather curt, possibly rude, response. And the person who proposed the idea takes it as an assault on their character and feels the need to defend themselves. And this is how things get toxic.
All I am suggesting is to take time with any reply, and if you don't, say the idea is good or bad, but you will expand upon it in a later post when you have free time for it.
tl;dr version: don't get your panties in a bunch if you propose an idea and multiple people poo-poo on it.
As for the talk about jungle Diana, her issue is that she can't engage too well pre-6, her shield got nerfed a ton so you can't do a Riven-esque build of full damage and have the shield keep you alive when you dive with your Q-R, and while Lich Bane is good on her, I'd probably build it after getting Spectral Wraith and another offensive AP item, like a Rabadons, Rylei's, Zhonyas or Void Staff. Personally, if she could build Tear any faster and have the AA be the second offensive item I think that would give her the "tankiness" needed to be a viable jungler again. Maybe with a build path of Machete + pots > Spirit Stone > Tear > Wraith/Golem > AA > Lich Bane > Rabadons, with the AA turning into a Seraph's around the time Lich Bane completes. I don't see why RoA is a terrible item on her personally. I build it the odd times I play her. I am not a fan of RoA on her specifically because it takes too long to build up, as it's an item meant for the game to get long, where-as she wants to power spike on her first, second and potentially third items. Assuming she's in the jungle and you get Wraith and then Zhonyas, that's at least 5260 gold, but once those items are done they give her the things you want out of her: survivability and power (Wraith for Conservation passive and AP, Zhonyas for the active and AP to let her spells do more damage and defense to take a hit from an ADC at similar gold). Wraith and RoA is 4800 gold and gives some survivability in the form of HP, but the benefit is less in my opinion. Below is the numbers of what those items give in terms of raw stats. Wraith + Zhonyas: 170 AP, 10% CDR, 50 Armor, Conservation passive, Zhonyas active. Wraith + RoA; 110 AP, 10% CDR, 450 HP, 450 MP at start; 10 minutes later it's 130 AP, 10% CDR, 630 HP, 650 MP, and Conservation passive throughout. It takes time for the RoA line to get gold-efficient where-as the Zhonyas line gets gold efficient within a couple completed sweeps of the jungle to use your stacks, and the active can mean the difference in a team fight where you Q-R-E into Zhonyas, they take a half second to a full second to stop attacking you, you pop out and W-Q-R-R and by then the team fight will probably be won in your teams favor if the engagement is ideal. It has potential, but I think I'd rather build it if I played Diana mid, like get Tear + RoA then go into Lich Bane + Zhonyas + Rabadons and finish off AA somewhere along the way.
Oh I fully understand it delays power. The reason that I don't think it's terrible is that it gives that bit of extra bit of tankiness that teams like out of the jungle. Due to her passive, giving her extra time post Zhonyas to get out the autos is very handy. I also find the extra mana very useful. Just another route to consider is all.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On March 18 2014 18:17 miicah wrote:What is wrong with the PBE website?
It's a problem on your side, works perfect for me.
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Armguard is also arguably like a mini RoA. It scales with time (well, monster kills but same thing) after you build it and provides tank and AP stats.
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God damn those trist buffs make me happy. No mana on Q yes please rofl.
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On March 18 2014 18:23 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 18:02 Kinie wrote:On March 18 2014 17:28 JazzVortical wrote:On March 18 2014 17:06 Kinie wrote:
For what it's worth, I think that the TL LoL GD chat can be toxic, though it's probably close to 80-85% of the time you can engage someone (or someones) in an actual conversation about a particular topic/idea. It all boils down to two things:
1. How you phrase your idea/topic, and
2. How you respond to it.
Given enough time I feel most people here will try to write up a reasonable response, but seeing as we all have varying degrees of this thing called a "real life," not everyone can give the time needed for such a response, so this person writes a rather curt, possibly rude, response. And the person who proposed the idea takes it as an assault on their character and feels the need to defend themselves. And this is how things get toxic.
All I am suggesting is to take time with any reply, and if you don't, say the idea is good or bad, but you will expand upon it in a later post when you have free time for it.
tl;dr version: don't get your panties in a bunch if you propose an idea and multiple people poo-poo on it.
As for the talk about jungle Diana, her issue is that she can't engage too well pre-6, her shield got nerfed a ton so you can't do a Riven-esque build of full damage and have the shield keep you alive when you dive with your Q-R, and while Lich Bane is good on her, I'd probably build it after getting Spectral Wraith and another offensive AP item, like a Rabadons, Rylei's, Zhonyas or Void Staff. Personally, if she could build Tear any faster and have the AA be the second offensive item I think that would give her the "tankiness" needed to be a viable jungler again. Maybe with a build path of Machete + pots > Spirit Stone > Tear > Wraith/Golem > AA > Lich Bane > Rabadons, with the AA turning into a Seraph's around the time Lich Bane completes. I don't see why RoA is a terrible item on her personally. I build it the odd times I play her. I am not a fan of RoA on her specifically because it takes too long to build up, as it's an item meant for the game to get long, where-as she wants to power spike on her first, second and potentially third items. Assuming she's in the jungle and you get Wraith and then Zhonyas, that's at least 5260 gold, but once those items are done they give her the things you want out of her: survivability and power (Wraith for Conservation passive and AP, Zhonyas for the active and AP to let her spells do more damage and defense to take a hit from an ADC at similar gold). Wraith and RoA is 4800 gold and gives some survivability in the form of HP, but the benefit is less in my opinion. Below is the numbers of what those items give in terms of raw stats. Wraith + Zhonyas: 170 AP, 10% CDR, 50 Armor, Conservation passive, Zhonyas active. Wraith + RoA; 110 AP, 10% CDR, 450 HP, 450 MP at start; 10 minutes later it's 130 AP, 10% CDR, 630 HP, 650 MP, and Conservation passive throughout. It takes time for the RoA line to get gold-efficient where-as the Zhonyas line gets gold efficient within a couple completed sweeps of the jungle to use your stacks, and the active can mean the difference in a team fight where you Q-R-E into Zhonyas, they take a half second to a full second to stop attacking you, you pop out and W-Q-R-R and by then the team fight will probably be won in your teams favor if the engagement is ideal. It has potential, but I think I'd rather build it if I played Diana mid, like get Tear + RoA then go into Lich Bane + Zhonyas + Rabadons and finish off AA somewhere along the way. Oh I fully understand it delays power. The reason that I don't think it's terrible is that it gives that bit of extra bit of tankiness that teams like out of the jungle. Due to her passive, giving her extra time post Zhonyas to get out the autos is very handy. I also find the extra mana very useful. Just another route to consider is all.
Well, at level 18 she'd have around 2600 HP assuming you go 21/9/0 masteries, but the normal build time you see a RoA is what, around minute 12 or 13? Main reason for that is you sink all your early game gold into it, usually after getting a Tear. All your early gold is getting sunk into the jungle item, and there's no guarantee you'll get to keep farming your jungle after getting the item (like if your lanes lose or towers fall early). Not to mention you'd probably get that RoA around... I dunno, minute 19 at the earliest? Assuming you get good ganks, can still farm your jungle, and get multiple dragons/turrets.
Just throwing numbers and ideas out here, but by minute 29 or minute 30 when the RoA maxes out you're talking about fighting against (referring to popular picks atm) a Shyvana, Renekton or Mundo with ~2.5k HP, a Lucian with BT, TF, maybe even a LW, Jinx probably has BT, PD and a pickaxe to go for LW or IE, Cait has BT, Shiv, probably LW. A Vi or Pantheon with Lizard, Bruta, and probably a Randuins or most of the components for it, a LB with DFG, Athenes, and maybe a large rod. Lulu would probably have Athenes and Rabadons, maybe a Sheen. Elise would probably have Golem, Haunting Guise, a tanky item (BV, Randuins, Sunfire) and Magic Pen shoes. Most supports will have a Sightstone, either spellthief's edge or Talisman, and probably Mobi Boots. I don't see how that extra 650 HP will let you live long enough to get another proc of your passive, especially considering by now they've probably spread away from you so you'll hit only your main target and not get a splash damage out of it.
You'll have at a similar time Wraiths, the RoA, and probably 2-3k gold to play with. So you're talking either a Zhonyas or Lich Bane, maybe the components for a Rabadons, and with the nerfs to the Bane I don't know how well she'll do with it. I'll want to play her a bit post patch, as the buff to her passive should mean a faster jungle clear, which could mean she hits 6 faster, ganks sooner, and (hopefully) gets gold faster, so the power spikes of Wraith > Lich Bane > Zhonyas could make her come back, even after the Lich Bane nerfs.
We also have to keep in mind the team comp that the Diana is in. Is the top laner a tanky champ or an out-of-meta call like a Jax or Riven? Who is the initiator for the fights? Do we even want to initiate a fight? Is the enemy jungle also someone that takes a while to scale to be effective in ganks? In a vacuum we're talking about a small percentage of games where a Diana jungle is right, and an even smaller percentage where the RoA would be good. I'm not saying no to it, but in my opinion, in about 95% of the Diana jungle games you'll play, I would suspect that the RoA option is bad.
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Does anyone think that Kog/Trist will see more play now that they are buffed? Especially Kog buffs are huge, he's gonna dunk in lane.
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so i watched korean stream and ryze is perma ban/first pick every single game now, lol riot
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Yeah, I've been seeing Ryze a fair bit top lane recently. He's pretty annoying.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Monte just said on stream that Kha is a well designed champion in his opinion
ggggg now I can appeal to authority
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On March 18 2014 18:54 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 18:23 JazzVortical wrote:On March 18 2014 18:02 Kinie wrote:On March 18 2014 17:28 JazzVortical wrote:On March 18 2014 17:06 Kinie wrote:
For what it's worth, I think that the TL LoL GD chat can be toxic, though it's probably close to 80-85% of the time you can engage someone (or someones) in an actual conversation about a particular topic/idea. It all boils down to two things:
1. How you phrase your idea/topic, and
2. How you respond to it.
Given enough time I feel most people here will try to write up a reasonable response, but seeing as we all have varying degrees of this thing called a "real life," not everyone can give the time needed for such a response, so this person writes a rather curt, possibly rude, response. And the person who proposed the idea takes it as an assault on their character and feels the need to defend themselves. And this is how things get toxic.
All I am suggesting is to take time with any reply, and if you don't, say the idea is good or bad, but you will expand upon it in a later post when you have free time for it.
tl;dr version: don't get your panties in a bunch if you propose an idea and multiple people poo-poo on it.
As for the talk about jungle Diana, her issue is that she can't engage too well pre-6, her shield got nerfed a ton so you can't do a Riven-esque build of full damage and have the shield keep you alive when you dive with your Q-R, and while Lich Bane is good on her, I'd probably build it after getting Spectral Wraith and another offensive AP item, like a Rabadons, Rylei's, Zhonyas or Void Staff. Personally, if she could build Tear any faster and have the AA be the second offensive item I think that would give her the "tankiness" needed to be a viable jungler again. Maybe with a build path of Machete + pots > Spirit Stone > Tear > Wraith/Golem > AA > Lich Bane > Rabadons, with the AA turning into a Seraph's around the time Lich Bane completes. I don't see why RoA is a terrible item on her personally. I build it the odd times I play her. I am not a fan of RoA on her specifically because it takes too long to build up, as it's an item meant for the game to get long, where-as she wants to power spike on her first, second and potentially third items. Assuming she's in the jungle and you get Wraith and then Zhonyas, that's at least 5260 gold, but once those items are done they give her the things you want out of her: survivability and power (Wraith for Conservation passive and AP, Zhonyas for the active and AP to let her spells do more damage and defense to take a hit from an ADC at similar gold). Wraith and RoA is 4800 gold and gives some survivability in the form of HP, but the benefit is less in my opinion. Below is the numbers of what those items give in terms of raw stats. Wraith + Zhonyas: 170 AP, 10% CDR, 50 Armor, Conservation passive, Zhonyas active. Wraith + RoA; 110 AP, 10% CDR, 450 HP, 450 MP at start; 10 minutes later it's 130 AP, 10% CDR, 630 HP, 650 MP, and Conservation passive throughout. It takes time for the RoA line to get gold-efficient where-as the Zhonyas line gets gold efficient within a couple completed sweeps of the jungle to use your stacks, and the active can mean the difference in a team fight where you Q-R-E into Zhonyas, they take a half second to a full second to stop attacking you, you pop out and W-Q-R-R and by then the team fight will probably be won in your teams favor if the engagement is ideal. It has potential, but I think I'd rather build it if I played Diana mid, like get Tear + RoA then go into Lich Bane + Zhonyas + Rabadons and finish off AA somewhere along the way. Oh I fully understand it delays power. The reason that I don't think it's terrible is that it gives that bit of extra bit of tankiness that teams like out of the jungle. Due to her passive, giving her extra time post Zhonyas to get out the autos is very handy. I also find the extra mana very useful. Just another route to consider is all. Well, at level 18 she'd have around 2600 HP assuming you go 21/9/0 masteries, but the normal build time you see a RoA is what, around minute 12 or 13? Main reason for that is you sink all your early game gold into it, usually after getting a Tear. All your early gold is getting sunk into the jungle item, and there's no guarantee you'll get to keep farming your jungle after getting the item (like if your lanes lose or towers fall early). Not to mention you'd probably get that RoA around... I dunno, minute 19 at the earliest? Assuming you get good ganks, can still farm your jungle, and get multiple dragons/turrets. Just throwing numbers and ideas out here, but by minute 29 or minute 30 when the RoA maxes out you're talking about fighting against (referring to popular picks atm) a Shyvana, Renekton or Mundo with ~2.5k HP, a Lucian with BT, TF, maybe even a LW, Jinx probably has BT, PD and a pickaxe to go for LW or IE, Cait has BT, Shiv, probably LW. A Vi or Pantheon with Lizard, Bruta, and probably a Randuins or most of the components for it, a LB with DFG, Athenes, and maybe a large rod. Lulu would probably have Athenes and Rabadons, maybe a Sheen. Elise would probably have Golem, Haunting Guise, a tanky item (BV, Randuins, Sunfire) and Magic Pen shoes. Most supports will have a Sightstone, either spellthief's edge or Talisman, and probably Mobi Boots. I don't see how that extra 650 HP will let you live long enough to get another proc of your passive, especially considering by now they've probably spread away from you so you'll hit only your main target and not get a splash damage out of it. You'll have at a similar time Wraiths, the RoA, and probably 2-3k gold to play with. So you're talking either a Zhonyas or Lich Bane, maybe the components for a Rabadons, and with the nerfs to the Bane I don't know how well she'll do with it. I'll want to play her a bit post patch, as the buff to her passive should mean a faster jungle clear, which could mean she hits 6 faster, ganks sooner, and (hopefully) gets gold faster, so the power spikes of Wraith > Lich Bane > Zhonyas could make her come back, even after the Lich Bane nerfs. We also have to keep in mind the team comp that the Diana is in. Is the top laner a tanky champ or an out-of-meta call like a Jax or Riven? Who is the initiator for the fights? Do we even want to initiate a fight? Is the enemy jungle also someone that takes a while to scale to be effective in ganks? In a vacuum we're talking about a small percentage of games where a Diana jungle is right, and an even smaller percentage where the RoA would be good. I'm not saying no to it, but in my opinion, in about 95% of the Diana jungle games you'll play, I would suspect that the RoA option is bad.
Why are you building tear? I've never said that. If I was doing it, I'd go jungle item into roa into Zhonyas/abyssal.
I've never said it's the be all and end all. Just an option to consider if you wanted to be a slightly tankier Diana, which is why I brought it up. I like to play her as more of a bruiser than assassin and roa compliments that effectively. Of course it works better in lane though as you mentioned earlier.
If you were playing Diana jungle, ideally you'd have a super tank out of top lane and could build straight damage and rely on your shield, Zhonyas and resists, just like you've been mentioning. That way you can hopefully snowball the mid game with those key timings and strong lunar rush ganks. If you needed more tank stats, I'd consider a RoA. Gives you decent health without gimping your damage like a full tank item.
Then again, if you needed to be the tank out of the jungle, you wouldn't go for Diana.
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On March 18 2014 19:43 Scip wrote:
Monte just said on stream that Kha is a well designed champion in his opinion
ggggg now I can appeal to authority
i thought everyone has said that? he can be played many many diff ways and thats what makes him unique, even though he's incredibly annoying at the same time zz.
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EPT
