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[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 327

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No more bad posting
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 21 2013 17:03 GMT
#6521
--- Nuked ---
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
August 21 2013 17:03 GMT
#6522
On August 22 2013 02:03 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2013 01:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
On August 22 2013 01:18 Alaric wrote:
Infinite Duress actually has a very short cooldown (90 to 70s) and can easily abuse standard cooldown ultimates: in top lane Ragnarok removes suppressions but has a longer cd so WW can somewhat easily abuse Olaf for example, in bot lane it's comparable to Leona ulting against a Sona lane knowing Crescendo will cancel this trade but won't be available the next time Solar Flare comes up.

However, WW has no means at all to force trades. All he can do is run at people and Q them, which burns his mana pool very fast.
Sure his autoattacks aren't too shabby (Blitz and Alistar have close base AD but his passive keeps him ahead) but he has to reach people to use them, and to keep up with them, making boots very important on him asap. Considering he doesn't have gap closers (hard or MS buffs) the tiniest slow or creep block is devastating to him, sticking his head to take a beating from ranged champs.

Basically, PX seems (personal interpretation) to suggest that you should pick him with a long range/pokey marksman to do the work in lane by himself, playing passive/having the marksman shove until he hits 6 or an AD-oriented jungler comes to gank. A bit like how Soraka+Graves was about allowing Graves to shove the lane and harass people with Q spam, except Soraka actually helped Graves.

However, to me it also means you basically surrender the entire laning phase by going for a farm fest at best, until level 6 where you can try all-ins and ganks setup on a low cooldown with a reliable cc (although against the low cd of Thresh's Flail it looks like a pretty inane idea to me).
The ult is good for pick-ups during roaming phase because of its cd and how it works and people still aren't too rich. However, you are less likely to win lane unless you snowball at level 6, and you are straight-up useless if you get shoved to tower (esp. if paired with Ezreal), I don't really expect the ability to take the enemy tower first and roam from the WW lane as the standard outcome.

You also have nothing to defend from ganks, unless the enemy jungler is dumb and comes with less than half-HP (and you'll burst him down anyway when that happens unless it's Zac or Sej or Amumu).



As for the "don't cc him" claims, considering how useless WW is without his ult, it's not about cc-ing his ult and outtrading the enemy. Sure, if his AD is reactive you'll lose the trade. However, cc him, disengage (Flay him then run away with W to reduce the poke from his AD; Bubble him then use your passive's MS and maybe the slow from E to run away; Taric is bad now so it's nothing new but he doesn't care because he has sustain to make up for your damage), wait your cooldowns to come back up/heal some, and then WW has nothing but an AS buff (which can be negated by hard cc on the marksman during its duration).
He also has the same weakness as Leona that he needs to get in so he's open to being baited while the jungler waits nearby, 'cept even Leona disengages better than him (W survivability, ranged ult, and Q to gain a bit of ground).

Really, I could see it work somewhat with Cait/Varus using Infinite Duress to chain cc and force a longer trade (and Varus maxing Q could have the burst to take down a squishy) but barring that there's nothing wrong with cc-ing WW, disengaging then wrecking your duo.

with a long range carry like varus or cait, they aren't dependent on a large amount of space bought by their supports, the way vayne would be for instance. which means you can put your Warwick in a somewhat forward position to be covered by the carry. Warwicks AS boost is essentially equivalent to nunu's with regards to pushing a tower down quickly, but better than nunu's during ganks/being ganked. Warwick attacking and retreating simultaneously during a gank is incredibly powerful, and the enemy team deciding to go for warwick instead of the carry allows you to deal quite a bit of damage. But lets be honest about being ganked. if you are warding properly, and you are ganked without your jungler nearby to counter gank, its kind of a play issue rather than a matchup issue. Warwick excels at drawn out fights, his passive and his Blood Scent ensure this, There is little the enemy can do against long range carry + warwick just walking up and auto attacking early on except attempt to outdo them in burst and retreat. lulu and sona have the ability to win these sort of early trades, while the other supports don't.

you aren't surrendering your laning phase, its just played differently. Instead of just spamming your crap at the enemy you are focused on controlling space. Its the difference between playing dhalsim and guile. both are trying to control the area in front of them and prevent the enemy from fighting how they want to. but guile does it by throwing out timed sonic booms and flash kicks in response to enemy movements while Dhalsim attempts to bully his way into control of the space.

Warwick is powerful enough that if a team attempts to engage him and his carry without using cc (presumably saving it to stop his ultimate) warwick should win those fights and be able to heal up more afterwards. in counter gank scenerios warwick is very effective as he will be fairly high health due to his passive and Q and he will be dealing quite a bit of damage by the time the cavalry arrives. he can then turn the tides with a single hunters call. he's not bad against ganks unless its a gank you set yourself up to receive.



Karthus support more OP. Super slow, smarty poke, Aura does huge damage in long fights. Can do damage after he dies and has global ult. He's better support then ww.


AND he can check bushes without facechecking.OP
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:07:34
August 21 2013 17:05 GMT
#6523
--- Nuked ---
wussleeQ
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States3130 Posts
August 21 2013 17:09 GMT
#6524
i don't get why we're even giving a silver theory crafter attention who isnt willing to prove any of his theories in game.
BW -> League -> CSGO
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 21 2013 17:11 GMT
#6525
So do we deserve better or worse than Roffles?

I've thrown out quite a few odd ideas as support before... but no one ever really pays attention. Perhaps I should learn from PX to get more responses...

WW is not a good support. Period. The minimum necessity of a support is to have some sort of non-ult CC or some other non-ult utility. You also cannot play a champ as support because "oh, well abilities X, Y, Z are really good and make my team that much stronger". That is simply looking at team composition from the wrong angle.

But real talk play support Darius. Bleed damage OP, pull and dunks all day.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:15:38
August 21 2013 17:15 GMT
#6526
On August 22 2013 02:09 wussleeQ wrote:
i don't get why we're even giving a silver theory crafter attention who isnt willing to prove any of his theories in game.


People like arguing.

More seriously, this is a forum that's willing to entertain crazy ideas. We like discovering the next OP jungler, the next OP item, or the next OP team composition before other people. You don't have to be Diamond to think of something novel.

But you do need to vigorously and convincingly defend your idea, which may or may not involve testing it in game, dueling other TLers, or bringing it to TROLLS.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 21 2013 17:16 GMT
#6527
On August 22 2013 02:15 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2013 02:09 wussleeQ wrote:
i don't get why we're even giving a silver theory crafter attention who isnt willing to prove any of his theories in game.


People like arguing.

More seriously, this is a forum that's willing to entertain crazy ideas. We like discovering the next OP jungler, the next OP item, or the next OP team composition before other people. You don't have to be Diamond to think of something novel.

But you do need to vigorously and convincingly defend your idea, which may or may not involve testing it in game, dueling other TLers, or bringing it to TROLLS.


SHAMELESS SELF ADVERTISING ALERT
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Parametric
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1261 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:24:58
August 21 2013 17:18 GMT
#6528
On August 22 2013 01:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
with a long range carry like varus or cait, they aren't dependent on a large amount of space bought by their supports, the way vayne would be for instance. which means you can put your Warwick in a somewhat forward position to be covered by the carry.
If WW is forward and your ADC is csing what's stopping a ranged support from right clicking WW all day?

Warwicks AS boost is essentially equivalent to nunu's with regards to pushing a tower down quickly, but better than nunu's during ganks/being ganked.
How is an AS boost better when being ganked compared to a nunu with an AS/MS buff and an AS/MS slow?

Warwick attacking and retreating simultaneously during a gank is incredibly powerful, and the enemy team deciding to go for warwick instead of the carry allows you to deal quite a bit of damage.
How is WW not being blown up when he's a melee support with no built in tankiness/CC like Ali/Leona?

But lets be honest about being ganked. if you are warding properly, and you are ganked without your jungler nearby to counter gank, its kind of a play issue rather than a matchup issue.
Or the enemy support started a pink ward war. This myth about bot lane being ungankable due to wards 24/7 is really dumb; time their wards and tell your jungle where the wards are.

Warwick excels at drawn out fights, his passive and his Blood Scent ensure this, There is little the enemy can do against long range carry + warwick just walking up and auto attacking early on except attempt to outdo them in burst and retreat. lulu and sona have the ability to win these sort of early trades, while the other supports don't.
Or they have a ranged support (pretty much everyone) with CC and you just get kited all day and beaten to death when you try to harass

Warwick is powerful enough that if a team attempts to engage him and his carry without using cc (presumably saving it to stop his ultimate) warwick should win those fights and be able to heal up more afterwards. in counter gank scenerios warwick is very effective as he will be fairly high health due to his passive and Q and he will be dealing quite a bit of damage by the time the cavalry arrives.
What is WW autoattacking to get back his HP?

he can then turn the tides with a single hunters call. he's not bad against ganks unless its a gank you set yourself up to receive.
Lets say WW has level 3 hunters call, how is 60% AS for 10 seconds on a 20 second CD going to turn a gank around? Stop assuming omnipresence and never getting ganked, it just doesn't happen.

Edit: What would you do against a zyra/lulu in lane?
Crispy Bacon craving overload.
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
August 21 2013 17:19 GMT
#6529
All joking aside, at first when conversation started in this direction I thought we were gonna hear about Lee or Jarvan or Annie support or something that has some upside and a prayer of a chance. Then we got Tryndamere and Warwick, and I facepalmed.

I do want to see xildarkz and PX talk about the merits of duo mid with Syndra, though.
WiseBagus
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada452 Posts
August 21 2013 17:22 GMT
#6530
On August 21 2013 12:53 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2013 11:51 WiseBagus wrote:
I have been getting Soulstealer in game where I play Lulu, Sona, Janna, and Soraka. I usually go SS> Boots> Chalice> Ruby SS> Mobi Boots> Philo > Mejai> Crucible> into a morello or something else we need.

I wish I was this rich when I play support. But I gotta buy wards and stuff.

Low levels has its advantages, I can usually get at least 15 assist in one game.
"When you come at the King, you best not miss"
LaNague
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany9118 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:28:06
August 21 2013 17:25 GMT
#6531
started game, my client did not launch, restart launcher...15 mins queue.


Be warned.




finally relog, game was disbanded. Start a new game...doesnt launch again.
-Zoda-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
France3578 Posts
August 21 2013 17:25 GMT
#6532
What about that Mundo support that Edward loves ?
♪ 最初はi つなぐdo それ つまりlife 常に移動 ♪ - IGN: Uhryks
chinstrap
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom253 Posts
August 21 2013 17:29 GMT
#6533
On August 22 2013 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
So do we deserve better or worse than Roffles?

I've thrown out quite a few odd ideas as support before... but no one ever really pays attention. Perhaps I should learn from PX to get more responses...

WW is not a good support. Period. The minimum necessity of a support is to have some sort of non-ult CC or some other non-ult utility. You also cannot play a champ as support because "oh, well abilities X, Y, Z are really good and make my team that much stronger". That is simply looking at team composition from the wrong angle.

But real talk play support Darius. Bleed damage OP, pull and dunks all day.


I have played Darius support before. Its not terrible in lane against short range marksmen, just max w first land land hooks for kills. Just be sure to dunk early when you don't want to steal the kill like a troll.

The problem is that outside of lane you have 0 presence. The only way Darius has any impact late game is if he is tanky enough to just walk at the enemy team without being blown up. Without tank items you will do literally 1 shit dmg Q before you die.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:30:35
August 21 2013 17:29 GMT
#6534
On August 22 2013 02:25 LaNague wrote:
started game, my client did not launch, restart launcher...15 mins queue.


Be warned.

I walked into the drake pit to ward it (just out of habit, I was already 0-5 in ~12 minutes because random freezes and lags vs Draven+Blitz kinda hurts, esp. when you're supporting a Vayne tagging the jungler until the first wave hits her tower), and the fog of war was a bit slow in dissipating... then all of a sudden when I get in vision range of the drake it all clears and I'm surrounded by 4 opponents which stayed "invisible" (or at least not displayed, along with any spell/aa particle) until that point. They quickly disappeared again though, since vision fades on death.

Think that's my new record wrt server lag (already had worse situations but the lag was on my end).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
August 21 2013 17:30 GMT
#6535
On August 22 2013 02:19 upperbound wrote:
All joking aside, at first when conversation started in this direction I thought we were gonna hear about Lee or Jarvan or Annie support or something that has some upside and a prayer of a chance. Then we got Tryndamere and Warwick, and I facepalmed.

I do want to see xildarkz and PX talk about the merits of duo mid with Syndra, though.

Even Syndra is a better support than literally everything PX has suggested.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:34:37
August 21 2013 17:33 GMT
#6536
On August 21 2013 18:59 PrinceXizor wrote:
If you want to play a character as support, the main things you need to look at are:

What do i gain from playing this character,
What is unique about this character,
What impact do i have on laning,
And finally, what can i do mid-late game with mostly health stacking.

Tryndamere, Amumu, Vi, Urgot, Ezreal, Galio, fiddle, lissandra, warwick all pass these four questions pretty damn well. But some of them require unusual play from your partner to be strong, similar to how Leona does. Making it difficult to use them in solo queue in addition to general trolling that you will receive for trying.

Going back to your square one, you fail the very test you put forth in all counts except Fiddlesticks. Ultimately, no they don't pass your 4 questions. If you gain more in all of those categories from playing a normal support than you get from one of your special snowflake supports, then there is literally 0 reason to pick your special snowflake and you're just doing it to be a special snowflake.

Remember there's an opportunity cost there as well.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
August 21 2013 17:36 GMT
#6537
On August 22 2013 02:15 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2013 02:09 wussleeQ wrote:
i don't get why we're even giving a silver theory crafter attention who isnt willing to prove any of his theories in game.


People like arguing.

More seriously, this is a forum that's willing to entertain crazy ideas. We like discovering the next OP jungler, the next OP item, or the next OP team composition before other people. You don't have to be Diamond to think of something novel.

But you do need to vigorously and convincingly defend your idea, which may or may not involve testing it in game, dueling other TLers, or bringing it to TROLLS.

Yes, and we are taking the surest way of discovering the new OP. Proclaim everything to be OP -> new OP gets discovered -> quickly forget about all of our wrong guesses.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Jek
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark2771 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 17:42:47
August 21 2013 17:39 GMT
#6538
On August 22 2013 02:33 sylverfyre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2013 18:59 PrinceXizor wrote:
If you want to play a character as support, the main things you need to look at are:

What do i gain from playing this character,
What is unique about this character,
What impact do i have on laning,
And finally, what can i do mid-late game with mostly health stacking.

Tryndamere, Amumu, Vi, Urgot, Ezreal, Galio, fiddle, lissandra, warwick all pass these four questions pretty damn well. But some of them require unusual play from your partner to be strong, similar to how Leona does. Making it difficult to use them in solo queue in addition to general trolling that you will receive for trying.

Going back to your square one, you fail the very test you put forth in all counts except Fiddlesticks. Ultimately, no they don't pass your 4 questions. If you gain more in all of those categories from playing a normal support than you get from one of your special snowflake supports, then there is literally 0 reason to pick your special snowflake and you're just doing it to be a special snowflake.

Remember there's an opportunity cost there as well.

Ahem. Lissandra support is perfectly viable, especially if you're playing push composition so you can just "bounce" Q on minions, for huge ranged harass, everytime oppotunity arises.

But yeaaaah. Prefer Zyra, Janna or Thresh. Always stop ganks or initiate them, always win, never lose. huehuehue
It's Elo not ELO - Every statiscian playing League
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
August 21 2013 17:40 GMT
#6539
Syndra support is a bit strange.

If you fall behind you still have potential to be useful since you have a very strong (AoE) stun, but your Q and W are useless (I guess you could use it to check bushes, but that's it) and you're pretty much a gimped support.

However, she also has very strong laning (and roaming, even) as support, so the chances of snowballing are tilted in your favor.
remedium
Profile Joined July 2011
United States939 Posts
August 21 2013 17:41 GMT
#6540
I think Rengar is one of the best "let's hope our opponent's don't know how to play against this idiocy" supports. Huge gap closer, CC, heal, burst, pokemon, zoning and brush control...

LeBlanc is pretty good too.
Stay positive!
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