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[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 16

Forum Index > LoL General
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No more bad posting
JustAGame
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany161 Posts
July 31 2013 13:20 GMT
#301
On July 31 2013 22:12 Clinic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


that's a pretty hamfisted critique, perhaps you could point out a few specific changes that make you feel this way


-Defensive items got nerfed a lot recently, (bulkward removed, warmogs worse than before, etc etc),
-MR price got inceased, while effectivenes of magic and armor pen got increased.
-New champions tend to be rather squichy with higher damage and gap closers. Defensive gold items (heart of gold) was removed.
-Jungle was changed to allow more ganks, and most important: more unexpected ganks, easily allowing jungler to camp lanes.
-Added both ap and AD items that scale with total health (BotRK and liandrys)
-Minion damage was reduced to allow more agressive play in lane.
-They even added a tower dive item (although its barely used).

Overall, the damage output of champions has been increased, while defensive items have increased in price or got nerfed.
This is not about this patch only, its about the general direction of riot, with item changes, new champions etc.
pm me for free coaching
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
July 31 2013 13:25 GMT
#302
On July 31 2013 22:20 JustAGame wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:12 Clinic wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


that's a pretty hamfisted critique, perhaps you could point out a few specific changes that make you feel this way


-Defensive items got nerfed a lot recently, (bulkward removed, warmogs worse than before, etc etc),
-MR price got inceased, while effectivenes of magic and armor pen got increased.
-New champions tend to be rather squichy with higher damage and gap closers. Defensive gold items (heart of gold) was removed.
-Jungle was changed to allow more ganks, and most important: more unexpected ganks, easily allowing jungler to camp lanes.
-Added both ap and AD items that scale with total health (BotRK and liandrys)
-Minion damage was reduced to allow more agressive play in lane.
-They even added a tower dive item (although its barely used).

Overall, the damage output of champions has been increased, while defensive items have increased in price or got nerfed.
This is not about this patch only, its about the general direction of riot, with item changes, new champions etc.


And suddenly, the critique is no longer hamfisted.

I do agree with you that Riot is largely taking a stance to up every champ's power level to do more damage and die more often. Unkillable tanks are quite dull, and lategame everyone's just a pincushion to adc so I'd rather games be decided by high damage bursting picks into pushing for objectives, than the good ol' CLGEU farmfest till 60.
Hey! How you doin'?
rob.au
Profile Joined May 2010
1087 Posts
July 31 2013 13:27 GMT
#303
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


Good, everyone was way too tanky or didn't do enough damage in LoL for a long time. IMO changes like this increase the importance of strategy and tactics.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23464 Posts
July 31 2013 13:36 GMT
#304
On July 31 2013 21:58 BobMcJohnson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 21:28 Slayer91 wrote:
On July 31 2013 20:48 misirlou wrote:
We wanted to reduce the burden of buying an Aegis/Bulwark every game.


So they increased the burden of buying Aegis/Locket every game?


locket+bulwark costs about 2k more than new locket cost with similar aura benefits


Comparing Bulwark to the new locket you get:

Runic Bulwark
+ Show Spoiler +
2950g
+300 Health
+20 Armor
+30 Magic Resist

Aura - Legion:
+10 Armor
+25 Magic Resist
+10 Health Regen per 5 seconds


Locket of the Iron Solari
+ Show Spoiler +
2500g
+300 Health
+20 Armor
+10% Cooldown Reduction
+Active Shield

Aura - Legion:
+20 Magic Resist
+10 Health Regen per 5 seconds


New Locket is 450g cheaper, at the cost of:
-35 MR (30 for self, 5 from the aura)
-10 Armor (from the Aura)
+10% CDR
Locket Active Shield (230hp at level18)

Dunno, maybe i'm wrong but the final item doesnt even look that good, my first reaction when reading the patchnotes was "well I guess I'll just get this on junglers instead of aegis" but the self MR/Armor loss is actually pretty brutal, plus the aura isn't that much appealing anymore :/

For a similar price of 2400g you can get Spectre's Cowl + Warden's mail, which gets you:
+200 Health
+45 Magic Resist
+50 Armor
UNIQUE Passive: Grants +15 Health Regen per 5 seconds for up to 10 seconds after taking damage from an enemy champion
UNIQUE Passive - Cold Steel: When hit by basic attacks, reduces the attacker's Attack Speed by 15% for 1 seconds.

Even factoring the aura loss it looks more attractive to me, Plus you can upgrade them to Visage/Randuin after that.

Looking at it from a Jungler's point of view ofc. Supports are getting fucked but I think that we already have that established.


the final item is about even cost effectiveness.
you spend 400 gold to get 20 extra mr from null magic so its
-15 mr (300 gold) -10 (200 gold) +10% cdr (322 gold) locket active (~500 self gold +aura)

anyway
you're c omparing bulwark to locket, before you had to get bulwark AND locket, so you can spend the 2400 gold on spectres cowl +wardens mail+locket instead of bulwark+locket for example
aka Teutonica
Kyrie
Profile Joined June 2013
1594 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 13:42:56
July 31 2013 13:39 GMT
#305
On July 31 2013 22:20 JustAGame wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:12 Clinic wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


that's a pretty hamfisted critique, perhaps you could point out a few specific changes that make you feel this way


-Defensive items got nerfed a lot recently, (bulkward removed, warmogs worse than before, etc etc),
-MR price got inceased, while effectivenes of magic and armor pen got increased.
-New champions tend to be rather squichy with higher damage and gap closers. Defensive gold items (heart of gold) was removed.
-Jungle was changed to allow more ganks, and most important: more unexpected ganks, easily allowing jungler to camp lanes.
-Added both ap and AD items that scale with total health (BotRK and liandrys)
-Minion damage was reduced to allow more agressive play in lane.
-They even added a tower dive item (although its barely used).

Overall, the damage output of champions has been increased, while defensive items have increased in price or got nerfed.
This is not about this patch only, its about the general direction of riot, with item changes, new champions etc.


thanks for taking the time to flesh out the argument, good stuff.

while i'd mostly agree with your stated points, there are some additional ones on the other end of the scale that went unmentioned. the biggest ones for mr and armor that i can think of at the moment are:

- new mr item this patch to make easier to acquire on individual champs. how much this item will actually matter is yet to be seen, and i would be inclined to agree that mr is too difficult to buy in its absence
- armor is not difficult or inefficient to buy at all - see warden's mail/randuins

i also believe that some of the nerfs to defensive items, namely early s3 warmogs, were necessary because they were stifling the game. a lot of this discussion is a matter of opinion on what ideal game balance is like, but i think that warmogs was harmful to the game in its old state from any reasonable perspective.

although i don't see eye to eye with you on how item balance is impacting the game, i do agree that the jungle changes in particular have resulted in people just camping lanes forever. i would also like to see this change, and we see riot trying (with limited success so far) to address this. i would expect to see significant jungle changes for s4, but the jungle meta is probably here to stay for the rest of this season.

whether a balance trend of promoting aggression decreases the importance of strategy is altogether a different argument, and i don't believe that aggression due to champions being easier to kill necessarily comes at the cost of strategy
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
July 31 2013 13:40 GMT
#306
On July 31 2013 22:27 rob.au wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


Good, everyone was way too tanky or didn't do enough damage in LoL for a long time. IMO changes like this increase the importance of strategy and tactics.


I agree. The engagements being faster makes mistakes more punishing, so it increases not only the demand for mechanical skill but also positioning and timing and on a pro level it increases the need for strategy and tactics because your decisions have more immediate impact.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 13:41:32
July 31 2013 13:40 GMT
#307
But what can I build out of a kindlegem on a support ._.... New locket replaces bulwark in price point and what it does, but old LOCKET was basically the only "real item" I ever built on support.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
July 31 2013 13:42 GMT
#308
Just leave it at kindle or get zeke.Shurelya has always been a good choice.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
July 31 2013 13:43 GMT
#309
On July 31 2013 22:40 sylverfyre wrote:
But what can I build out of a kindlegem on a support ._.... New locket replaces bulwark in price point and what it does, but old LOCKET was basically the only "real item" I ever built on support.

Zoom Zoom Reverie. You can even go back to getting Philo for regen in lane.
It's your boy Guzma!
JustAGame
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany161 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 13:54:11
July 31 2013 13:52 GMT
#310
On July 31 2013 22:39 Clinic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:20 JustAGame wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:12 Clinic wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


that's a pretty hamfisted critique, perhaps you could point out a few specific changes that make you feel this way


-Defensive items got nerfed a lot recently, (bulkward removed, warmogs worse than before, etc etc),
-MR price got inceased, while effectivenes of magic and armor pen got increased.
-New champions tend to be rather squichy with higher damage and gap closers. Defensive gold items (heart of gold) was removed.
-Jungle was changed to allow more ganks, and most important: more unexpected ganks, easily allowing jungler to camp lanes.
-Added both ap and AD items that scale with total health (BotRK and liandrys)
-Minion damage was reduced to allow more agressive play in lane.
-They even added a tower dive item (although its barely used).

Overall, the damage output of champions has been increased, while defensive items have increased in price or got nerfed.
This is not about this patch only, its about the general direction of riot, with item changes, new champions etc.


thanks for taking the time to flesh out the argument, good stuff.

while i'd mostly agree with your stated points, there are some additional ones on the other end of the scale that went unmentioned. the biggest ones for mr and armor that i can think of at the moment are:

- new mr item this patch to make easier to acquire on individual champs. how much this item will actually matter is yet to be seen, and i would be inclined to agree that mr is too difficult to buy in its absence
- armor is not difficult or inefficient to buy at all - see warden's mail/randuins

i also believe that some of the nerfs to defensive items, namely early s3 warmogs, were necessary because they were stifling the game. a lot of this discussion is a matter of opinion on what ideal game balance is like, but i think that warmogs was harmful to the game in its old state from any reasonable perspective.

although i don't see eye to eye with you on how item balance is impacting the game, i do agree that the jungle changes in particular have resulted in people just camping lanes forever. i would also like to see this change, and we see riot trying (with limited success so far) to address this. i would expect to see significant jungle changes for s4, but the jungle meta is probably here to stay for the rest of this season.

whether the overall balance trend of promoting aggression has decreased the importance of strategy is altogether a different argument, and i don't believe that aggression due to champions being easier to kill necessarily comes at the cost of strategy


Ok i will point this out a little more:

In season one the game was slow.. it was basically an afk farming fest with rare dragons fights. Boring to play.. boring to watch.
Then some time between season 2 and 3 it was good (at least for me)
Now, its way too much of the squichy brusting (in my opinion)

Strategy and tactics require time to decide about them and time to use them. If you make only one decision during a fight, there is barely a chance to make good plays. If the game is all about bursting each other down, its more like a deathmatch.

e.g. when i play bot lane i think can win my lane by doing good plays etc.
When i play mid it often feels like the lane is decided by which jungler camps harder and which jungler has the higher burst damage rather than who uses his stuns /slow etc more efficient.
pm me for free coaching
Tula
Profile Joined December 2010
Austria1544 Posts
July 31 2013 14:17 GMT
#311
is the euw server still dead for anyone else?

The login server doesn't respond to my login prompts (first time i've had that problem).
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 14:21:41
July 31 2013 14:19 GMT
#312
On July 31 2013 23:17 Tula wrote:
is the euw server still dead for anyone else?

The login server doesn't respond to my login prompts (first time i've had that problem).


I just loginned in and started a game so i'll tell you if it works shortly.

edit: Works
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
July 31 2013 14:20 GMT
#313
new yi seems quite strong, at least for soloq
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
July 31 2013 14:26 GMT
#314
On July 31 2013 23:20 sob3k wrote:
new yi seems quite strong, at least for soloq

Can't wait to get home and play him some. Already posted my theorycraft in the Yi thread, so I'm pretty hyped to try him.
It's your boy Guzma!
Lounge
Profile Joined November 2011
537 Posts
July 31 2013 14:27 GMT
#315
On July 31 2013 22:43 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:40 sylverfyre wrote:
But what can I build out of a kindlegem on a support ._.... New locket replaces bulwark in price point and what it does, but old LOCKET was basically the only "real item" I ever built on support.

Zoom Zoom Reverie. You can even go back to getting Philo for regen in lane.


If Kindlegem wasn't unique I'd just buy 3 of them and then wards and I'd be happy.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
July 31 2013 14:28 GMT
#316
On July 31 2013 23:26 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 23:20 sob3k wrote:
new yi seems quite strong, at least for soloq

Can't wait to get home and play him some. Already posted my theorycraft in the Yi thread, so I'm pretty hyped to try him.


Much better to see you typing this than pictures of your uninstalling.

New Yi is damn good in 3s, not that anyone plays 3s.
Hey! How you doin'?
Kyrie
Profile Joined June 2013
1594 Posts
July 31 2013 14:35 GMT
#317
On July 31 2013 22:52 JustAGame wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 22:39 Clinic wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:20 JustAGame wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:12 Clinic wrote:
On July 31 2013 22:08 JustAGame wrote:
to me it seems like riot is trying to make LoL a squichy slaughter fest rather than increasing strategy and tactics


that's a pretty hamfisted critique, perhaps you could point out a few specific changes that make you feel this way


-Defensive items got nerfed a lot recently, (bulkward removed, warmogs worse than before, etc etc),
-MR price got inceased, while effectivenes of magic and armor pen got increased.
-New champions tend to be rather squichy with higher damage and gap closers. Defensive gold items (heart of gold) was removed.
-Jungle was changed to allow more ganks, and most important: more unexpected ganks, easily allowing jungler to camp lanes.
-Added both ap and AD items that scale with total health (BotRK and liandrys)
-Minion damage was reduced to allow more agressive play in lane.
-They even added a tower dive item (although its barely used).

Overall, the damage output of champions has been increased, while defensive items have increased in price or got nerfed.
This is not about this patch only, its about the general direction of riot, with item changes, new champions etc.


thanks for taking the time to flesh out the argument, good stuff.

while i'd mostly agree with your stated points, there are some additional ones on the other end of the scale that went unmentioned. the biggest ones for mr and armor that i can think of at the moment are:

- new mr item this patch to make easier to acquire on individual champs. how much this item will actually matter is yet to be seen, and i would be inclined to agree that mr is too difficult to buy in its absence
- armor is not difficult or inefficient to buy at all - see warden's mail/randuins

i also believe that some of the nerfs to defensive items, namely early s3 warmogs, were necessary because they were stifling the game. a lot of this discussion is a matter of opinion on what ideal game balance is like, but i think that warmogs was harmful to the game in its old state from any reasonable perspective.

although i don't see eye to eye with you on how item balance is impacting the game, i do agree that the jungle changes in particular have resulted in people just camping lanes forever. i would also like to see this change, and we see riot trying (with limited success so far) to address this. i would expect to see significant jungle changes for s4, but the jungle meta is probably here to stay for the rest of this season.

whether the overall balance trend of promoting aggression has decreased the importance of strategy is altogether a different argument, and i don't believe that aggression due to champions being easier to kill necessarily comes at the cost of strategy


Ok i will point this out a little more:

In season one the game was slow.. it was basically an afk farming fest with rare dragons fights. Boring to play.. boring to watch.
Then some time between season 2 and 3 it was good (at least for me)
Now, its way too much of the squichy brusting (in my opinion)

Strategy and tactics require time to decide about them and time to use them. If you make only one decision during a fight, there is barely a chance to make good plays. If the game is all about bursting each other down, its more like a deathmatch.

e.g. when i play bot lane i think can win my lane by doing good plays etc.
When i play mid it often feels like the lane is decided by which jungler camps harder and which jungler has the higher burst damage rather than who uses his stuns /slow etc more efficient.


i myself am not familiar with metas over such a long term, but i can see where you're coming from. i think that statements like 'Strategy and tactics require time to decide about them and time to use them' are very much a matter of opinion (chess? boxing? chessboxing!), but your position is certainly thought out. thanks for the discussion; your perspective is one hadn't given much thought to before
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
July 31 2013 14:48 GMT
#318
So, boots are unique now?

Shy will be embarrassed no more!
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
July 31 2013 14:48 GMT
#319
On July 31 2013 23:26 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 23:20 sob3k wrote:
new yi seems quite strong, at least for soloq

Can't wait to get home and play him some. Already posted my theorycraft in the Yi thread, so I'm pretty hyped to try him.


What lane though? Just faced my first in the jungle and it was about as mediocre as most non-utility junglers, if not way more than most non-utility junglers.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
July 31 2013 14:53 GMT
#320
On July 31 2013 23:48 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 23:26 Requizen wrote:
On July 31 2013 23:20 sob3k wrote:
new yi seems quite strong, at least for soloq

Can't wait to get home and play him some. Already posted my theorycraft in the Yi thread, so I'm pretty hyped to try him.


What lane though? Just faced my first in the jungle and it was about as mediocre as most non-utility junglers, if not way more than most non-utility junglers.

I'm probably going to keep trying him mid or top. With his crazy good AD/AS/Crit scaling, getting lane farm seems really good. That said, he can clear the jungle super hard and has decent to good damage for ganks, so I'll probably see a couple Jungle games.

I think his best bet is mid lane as an AD assassin like Zed or the like. He retains clearing power with Q (not as good as AP Yi's, but good), and has high roaming/pushing power. Top lane of course has the issues of bruisers, but aside from hard CC champs he should be able to farm safely and securely.
It's your boy Guzma!
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