|
On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though.
yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right?
|
On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right?
Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no.
|
On November 10 2012 01:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right? Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no.
Sona, Leona, Corki, Taric, Kog'maw, Tristana and Lulu would like to say hello. Honorable mentions to Ezreal and MF... there's plenty of magic damage going around in bot lane.
I could keep going, I didn't even get everyone.
|
On November 10 2012 01:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right? Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no.
Leona does a crapton of magic damage, most offensive supports do significant magic damage, and there are plenty of ADs with magic damage in their kits (e.g. MF, Varus, Kog, Trist). Ganking jungles can also do magic damage, roaming mids will do magic damage, and there's plenty of time for both since scaling doesn't even begin to surpass flat until laning phase is basically over.
|
Unless it's a game I'm building QSS or GA 3rd item instead of LW I like my MR/level glyphs so that triple pen builds don't make them hit true damage on me.
|
On November 10 2012 01:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right? Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no.
so you're saying if you're against a kill lane which is usually mostly magic damgae burst you'd rather risk snowballing the lane so you have 13 more mr later?
|
People cite that scaling MR runes become better than flat MR runes at level 9 but forget that the difference at this level is miniscule. It's not going to be until level 13+ before you actually stat feeling a difference between scaling and flat MR runes. On the other hand there is always the risk of a level 1 teamfight and the difference between flat runes and scaling runes at this point in the game is huge.
|
On November 10 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:03 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right? Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no. so you're saying if you're against a kill lane which is usually mostly magic damgae burst you'd rather risk snowballing the lane so you have 13 more mr later?
It's harder to pin your MR as a reason you lost to a kill lane. You probably just played poorly.
|
loco come to my aid once more!
Can you explain me KT Ryu's masteries... he's AP mid but he doesn't have a single page where he goes 21 in offense.
Also, what items/runes/masteries do Koreans go on Ahri? I've been playing her for the longest time and am 68%+ over 120 games or so. But whenever I look at the Koreans (who I think of very highly) they build her dfg -> abyssal -> zhonya's -> GA(?). While I normally never build dfg (especially after nerf). What do you think's the best build?
I've seen Ryu's Ahri yesterday on VOD with dfg first. He ults, dfg's instantly and then waits for his charm. I tried this and seemed to be working really well. Apart from me being a slow mofo on the dfg.
|
On November 10 2012 01:31 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:03 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right? Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no. so you're saying if you're against a kill lane which is usually mostly magic damgae burst you'd rather risk snowballing the lane so you have 13 more mr later? It's harder to pin your MR as a reason you lost to a kill lane. You probably just played poorly.
more mr early absolutely improves your strength against alot of the scary supports like sona and leona and scales up your sustain significantly.
with your logic you should get scaling everything because if you need flat stuff now you just play poorly.
|
On November 10 2012 01:39 EffectS wrote:
Can you explain me KT Ryu's masteries... he's AP mid but he doesn't have a single page where he goes 21 in offense.
It's because 21 offense is severely overrated for ap's.You have to go through a crap load of essentially terrible masterys to get to executioner,at which point you really have to wonder if it's even worth it.
In my opinion it's better to optimize for a strong and durable early game with something like a 9/9/12,9/12/9,9/0/21 or something similar,because at a point,which usually comes after you get your first blue buff,you become able to clear waves without putting yourself in danger in any way(which means you don't even get in contact with the other guy that has blue) and you still don't see the benefits of blast,havoc and archmage.
Most trades that happen mid happen while both are lower lvls and before blue buff,and going 21 in offense doesn't help you much at that stage.You're better off with additional armor,mr,health,MS,mana regen etc.
Auto attacks is what wins lanes early on in mid lane if you want to harass someone,not spells.
I guess what I'm trying to say is,I think that benefits of optimizing for early game with masterys outweigh the benefits in end game,when blast,havoc and archmage finally start to kick in(and it's just a small boost to your damage than)
|
On November 10 2012 01:31 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:03 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2012 01:00 Tobberoth wrote:On November 10 2012 00:57 Alaric wrote:
AD reds and quints, armor yellows, flat MR blues, you're set. Disagreed. MR per Level is far more effective since AP fighters won't be an issue early (as they are usually quite weak early and not in your lane anyway) and MR per level gives more benefit later when they are actually dangerous. Flat AD and Flat Armor is boss though. yeah which is great because supports and ads never have any magic damage right? Not enough to make flat MR worth it compared to scaling MR, no. so you're saying if you're against a kill lane which is usually mostly magic damgae burst you'd rather risk snowballing the lane so you have 13 more mr later? It's harder to pin your MR as a reason you lost to a kill lane. You probably just played poorly.
A lot of the cited champs aren't even "kill lanes" but more "harass lanes" - taking less harass when they harass you is pretty significant. Or are you saying you can avoid all sona/lulu harass under all circumstances without missing CS?
On November 10 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote:
Unless it's a game I'm building QSS or GA 3rd item instead of LW I like my MR/level glyphs so that triple pen builds don't make them hit true damage on me.
They have 69 MPen with a triple MPen build. They're hitting true damage on you even with level 18 scaling MR (24 MR) + 15 MR from Aegis Aura from your teammate. Shitty reason.
|
ranged AD should run flat MR and Top laners should run scaling MR in normal scenarios. You don't get enough levels to make the scaling MR worth it on ranged AD, while top laners can actually make efficient use of those runes(of course you should still use flat if you are against kennen or vlad or something)
|
flat mr blues is the safe option
manaregen/lvl - attackspeed - critchance(?) is the counterpick crazy option
scaling mr is the "this looks good but it really isn't" in-between option
for ad carrys that is
|
If you're only going to buy one page, you should get flat MR because while scaling MR might be marginally better for some positions/matchups, scaling is terrible for mid lane / top lane vs AP champs and flat is more versatile for all roles/matchups.
|
On November 10 2012 01:52 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:39 EffectS wrote:
Can you explain me KT Ryu's masteries... he's AP mid but he doesn't have a single page where he goes 21 in offense.
It's because 21 offense is severely overrated for ap's.You have to go through a crap load of essentially terrible masterys to get to executioner,at which point you really have to wonder if it's even worth it. In my opinion it's better to optimize for a strong and durable early game with something like a 9/9/12,9/12/9,9/0/21 or something similar,because at a point,which usually comes after you get your first blue buff,you become able to clear waves without putting yourself in danger in any way(which means you don't even get in contact with the other guy that has blue) and you still don't see the benefits of blast,havoc and archmage. Most trades that happen mid happen while both are lower lvls and before blue buff,and going 21 in offense doesn't help you much at that stage.You're better off with additional armor,mr,health,MS,mana regen etc. Auto attacks is what wins lanes early on in mid lane if you want to harass someone,not spells. I guess what I'm trying to say is,I think that benefits of optimizing for early game with masterys outweigh the benefits in end game,when blast,havoc and archmage finally start to kick in(and it's just a small boost to your damage than)
I donno, the two +AP masteries are pretty good IMO.
|
On November 10 2012 01:52 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:39 EffectS wrote:
Can you explain me KT Ryu's masteries... he's AP mid but he doesn't have a single page where he goes 21 in offense.
It's because 21 offense is severely overrated for ap's.You have to go through a crap load of essentially terrible masterys to get to executioner,at which point you really have to wonder if it's even worth it. In my opinion it's better to optimize for a strong and durable early game with something like a 9/9/12,9/12/9,9/0/21 or something similar,because at a point,which usually comes after you get your first blue buff,you become able to clear waves without putting yourself in danger in any way(which means you don't even get in contact with the other guy that has blue) and you still don't see the benefits of blast,havoc and archmage. Most trades that happen mid happen while both are lower lvls and before blue buff,and going 21 in offense doesn't help you much at that stage.You're better off with additional armor,mr,health,MS,mana regen etc. Auto attacks is what wins lanes early on in mid lane if you want to harass someone,not spells. I guess what I'm trying to say is,I think that benefits of optimizing for early game with masterys outweigh the benefits in end game,when blast,havoc and archmage finally start to kick in(and it's just a small boost to your damage than)
You can make an argument that 21 offense might pay off in terms of gold per skill point (turning % damage or % ap into gold based on how much AP you would have at any point) for burst casters
But for sustained damage, which is pretty much all of the competitive mid picks, and AD carries, I've been going 19/11 or 19/0/11 19/2/9 or 19/4/7 if I want heavy offensive spec and otherwise just 9/*/*
In every tree the first 7-9 points are really good and then everything after is pretty meh, except for CDR/lvl in defense because that shit is OP.
|
The 6% CDR in utility is also pretty baller.
|
On November 10 2012 02:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
ranged AD should run flat MR and Top laners should run scaling MR in normal scenarios. You don't get enough levels to make the scaling MR worth it on ranged AD, while top laners can actually make efficient use of those runes(of course you should still use flat if you are against kennen or vlad or something)
Even discounting the "AP top lanes" there's a ton of top laners that do at least significant magic damage, like Jayce, Nidalee, Jax, Darius, Yorick, Warwick, Udyr, Shen, even Lee Sin.
I would not ever default scaling MR top. At all.
I do run scaling MR runes on my 'anti-physical' (mainly top lane) page - which has armor quints too - and on jungle pages. But on a standard runepage for top lane? No way.
The only remotely common top lanes I can think of where you can entirely ignore magic damage from them are Riven, Pantheon, Jarvan, and Renekton.
|
On November 10 2012 03:36 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 01:52 TheKefka wrote:On November 10 2012 01:39 EffectS wrote:
Can you explain me KT Ryu's masteries... he's AP mid but he doesn't have a single page where he goes 21 in offense.
It's because 21 offense is severely overrated for ap's.You have to go through a crap load of essentially terrible masterys to get to executioner,at which point you really have to wonder if it's even worth it. In my opinion it's better to optimize for a strong and durable early game with something like a 9/9/12,9/12/9,9/0/21 or something similar,because at a point,which usually comes after you get your first blue buff,you become able to clear waves without putting yourself in danger in any way(which means you don't even get in contact with the other guy that has blue) and you still don't see the benefits of blast,havoc and archmage. Most trades that happen mid happen while both are lower lvls and before blue buff,and going 21 in offense doesn't help you much at that stage.You're better off with additional armor,mr,health,MS,mana regen etc. Auto attacks is what wins lanes early on in mid lane if you want to harass someone,not spells. I guess what I'm trying to say is,I think that benefits of optimizing for early game with masterys outweigh the benefits in end game,when blast,havoc and archmage finally start to kick in(and it's just a small boost to your damage than) I donno, the two +AP masteries are pretty good IMO.
Archmage is good.Blast is kinda meh but still 4.5× more effective than mental force at lvl 18(which is the worst mastery in the offensive tree and you should ever take it btw),overall pretty unnoticeable.Both are ok options if you aim for the later stages into the game and more damage(but they are still going to be a minimal part of your total ap)
You just have to decide if a blasting wand down the line is worth more than the early game options.
Btw it's incredibly dumb to judge the worth of a mastery based on gold value per point.
The main difference between them is at which point of the game they do their job.Some of them offer stats that items don't even have so you can't calculate their value.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
