• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:11
CEST 22:11
KST 05:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed12Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll4Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed Who will win EWC 2025? Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Starcraft in widescreen
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Segway man no more. Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 690 users

Post-Playoffs Shuffle!

Forum Index > Hearthstone General
Post a Reply
LeRooster
Profile Joined April 2017
0 Posts
May 16 2018 20:46 GMT
#1

[image loading]


Post-Playoffs Shuffle!



There are some big changes coming to Standard (and Wild to a lesser extent) with the recent balance changes. Most of the top tier meta decks are taking a hit from these changes, with perhaps Warlock taking the biggest of all.

[image loading]

[image loading]


First off, Dark Pact and Possessed Lackey are being nerfed. Dark Pact will now heal only 4 Health instead of 8. This is a pretty significant change and will certainly require players to consider their life total a bit more in certain matchups. Previously, a double Dark Pact turn could reverse almost all the work an aggressive deck had put in so far. Possessed Lackey is moving from costing 5 to 6, which is an interesting change. I am not sure how this will affect play. I suppose the question is whether paying 6 for a Doomguard in Cubelock is worth it. Control Warlock most certainly continues to play the card for big daddy Voidlord, however, as that's still quite the deal.

[image loading]


Next is the deck that just can't stop getting nerfed: Quest Rogue. At this point, Crystal Core has to be a massive design regret for the development team, right? What are the odds this card gets nerfed again? There are so many cards that make the deck consistent and capable of closing quickly that I'm legitimately curious if it continues to be a problem. While the change to 4/4s slows the clock down significantly for the deck, I imagine the deck continues to see play as a way to punish control decks that fail to close games quickly.

[image loading]


Speaking of closing games quickly, both Murloc Paladin and Even Paladin are taking a fairly large hit, as the cost of Call to Arms is moving from 4 mana to 5. I actually think is a fairly healthy change, as games where the card comes down on 3 and 4 with a coin feel incredibly unfair and miserable. The card is just so consistently powerful, and cheating that many 2 mana minions into play with a follow up Sunkeeper Tarim is quite the play pattern.

[image loading]


Spiteful Druid is also taking a nerf, as its namesake card, Spiteful Summoner, will now cost 7 instead of 6. As Spiteful Druid is a "curve" deck, in that it wants to hit powerspikes along its mana curve, this is a fairly relevant nerf to the deck. However, I think the deck probably sticks around for a while and Summoner is powerful enough that it remains in the meta.

[image loading]


As for the wild meta, Naga Sea Witch is taking a hit. This change is meant to slow down the pace of the Wild Giants decks that dump a host of 8/8s on to the board before the opponent can do much. The deck is considered a dark spot on the Wild meta, as like the Barnes decks of the previous standard, games are often lost without much interaction. Blizzard had said that the deck's winrate was not problematic but this change is more for play pattern than anything else.

Some decks in the Standard meta probably stand to benefit from these changes that haven't taken a hit on these changes. Namely, I'm curious if various Priest decks can move their way to the top of their list. I think aggressive Rogue strategies might see an uptick in play, as well. In any case, these are fairly healthy balance changes that help make room for some of the other classes. Maybe Shaman might even become playable again!




Author // LeRooster
Editor // Hayl
Photo // Blizzard


Oukka
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Finland1683 Posts
May 17 2018 08:32 GMT
#2
So HCT Austin is the first tournament with these changes active? Will be interesting to see what kind of a tournament lineups players opt for there. For an average ladder player I think this is a great quality of life improvement with warlock's power level being much more in line with other classes and CTA and Spiteful also hitting one turn later.

Quest rogue and entire kobolds and catacombs set will still be something that influences the design and meta of this entire card rotation. The fact that so much of the powerful decks lately have focused on cheating very powerful minions out at lower cost will create a whole different set of challenges for the cards in next expansions. Anything too powerful will be added to an existing archetype making it more powerful (e.g. new big demons or yet another AoE or heal effect for warlock, or bounce or impactful minions for quest rogue etc) and anything not powerful enough will not see play or meaningfully impact the meta decks.

Besides the most obvious even and odd decks there are in reality very few new decks that came out of witchwood. Most powerful decks are archetypes that existed in the last rotation too, playing very few new cards. I cannot argue that adding godfrey to cubelock or scalehide to quest rogue is exiting deck building. Even even/odd paladin (ha. ha. ha.) feel often like just another aggressive paladin in the lines of pre witchwood murlocs or dudes in terms of gameplay from the opponents side.
I play children's card games and watch a lot of dota, CS and HS
Hryul
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria2609 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-19 09:31:29
May 19 2018 08:45 GMT
#3
So the Banhammer has fallen quite hard.

The Warlock nerfs postpones Doomguards to t7 and makes the healing much less of a swing. This makes cubelock more susceptible to aggro. If the meta continues to have two silences in every deck, then cubelock will no longer be the top dog.

Control lock is less affected, and they are adapting already with the addition of Shroom Brewer. it's hard to tell because the whole Taunt-Defense consists of 2 Void daddys and a Rin. a Lot of it will boil down to how fast the new aggro/tempo decks are. Even rogue e.g. is not an easy matchup.

Call to Arms nerf murders even paladin. without call, they have no refill and card draw. Odd paladin seems like the clear winner here but its main problem stays the same: once behind, they have a hard time reclaiming the board - Unidentified Maul is not a midrange weapon.
I think the even and odd palas are dead for now.

Another "solution" for Spiteful Summoner would have been to buff BGH. But I'm fairly neutral about the change also b/c i haven't played much without it.

Crystal Core's nerf is the second and I think if it ever becomes popular again, they'll nerf it again. In theory it should keep control decks down. In reality most games are decided by the matchup. This would be fine for tournaments, but it's inherently unfun for the ladder.

E: oh almost forgot the most important part.
As for the coming top decks we're having two contenders: Shudderwock Shaman, which is heavily experimented upon right now. If no other heavy tempo deck rises, this will certainly be strong.
The other suppressed deck right now is taunt Druid. endless taunts with a Savage Roar-like effect. oh it will be so much fun playing against this . . .

I'm hoping for control warrior, but I don't see them having the tools to really become a top deck. (Gunspire ...)
Countdown to victory: 1 200!
moero
Profile Joined December 2009
United States16 Posts
May 19 2018 15:56 GMT
#4
On May 19 2018 17:45 Hryul wrote:
I'm hoping for control warrior, but I don't see them having the tools to really become a top deck. (Gunspire ...)


Have you checked out Fibonacci's recruit warrior he was playing at HCT? I have played it up to rank 4 and it feels really good and is not getting touched in any way by the nerf hammer.


http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/fibonaccis-big-warrior-hct-americas-summer-playoffs-2018
I do this for Aiur
Hryul
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria2609 Posts
May 22 2018 20:40 GMT
#5
On May 20 2018 00:56 moero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2018 17:45 Hryul wrote:
I'm hoping for control warrior, but I don't see them having the tools to really become a top deck. (Gunspire ...)


Have you checked out Fibonacci's recruit warrior he was playing at HCT? I have played it up to rank 4 and it feels really good and is not getting touched in any way by the nerf hammer.


http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/fibonaccis-big-warrior-hct-americas-summer-playoffs-2018

well for my climb to legend i met mostly control lock and even pally, both not really good mu. Now i can test it, but since I'm 2 legends short of the deck i'll wait for the dust to settle.

on my climb I also met the latest iteration of Shudderwock with Hemet. After shooting the enemy's deck with Azari I can now shoot my own deck!
Countdown to victory: 1 200!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 13h 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 226
ZombieGrub176
SteadfastSC 112
Nathanias 70
ForJumy 42
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 492
Aegong 70
sas.Sziky 43
Bale 5
Dota 2
qojqva5191
syndereN218
Pyrionflax167
League of Legends
Grubby4153
Dendi1072
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K940
pashabiceps758
sgares551
Foxcn344
byalli214
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King79
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu520
Other Games
summit1g6398
FrodaN3342
mouzStarbuck311
C9.Mang0186
Skadoodle92
Trikslyr85
Sick38
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3305
BasetradeTV241
StarCraft 2
angryscii 31
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta69
• Adnapsc2 30
• LUISG 7
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 25
• Pr0nogo 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21635
League of Legends
• Jankos1910
• TFBlade1159
Other Games
• imaqtpie2008
• Shiphtur331
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
13h 50m
OSC
16h 50m
WardiTV European League
19h 50m
Fjant vs Babymarine
Mixu vs HiGhDrA
Gerald vs ArT
goblin vs MaNa
Jumy vs YoungYakov
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Epic.LAN
1d 15h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
CSO Contender
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
5 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.