well everytime when the game is starting i always hope to get the coin i feel like its just so much better
i think its really good because its a CARD what can give u and edge in lot of situations (Rogue Combo,Mountain Giant,twiligth drake etc.)
so why the coin is not something like a hero power? i think it should be better then having a little extra 50% of the time what can help some decks or the rogue combos?
what u guys think?

OlDan

Austria36 Posts

January 17 2014 14:47 GMT

I also feel that the coin might be a bit OP. Perhaps change it so it's not a proper spell/card...

Cyberpunk1792

United States0 Posts

January 17 2014 14:55 GMT

On January 17 2014 23:47 OlDan wrote:
I also feel that the coin might be a bit OP. Perhaps change it so it's not a proper spell/card...

I think that if it were not a spell, but some other category on its own it would be way more balanced. The ability of the coin itself is not that overpowered in my opinion, but rather the fact that it is a spell and combos well with multiple cards.

Muirhead

United States556 Posts

January 17 2014 14:58 GMT

If you look at statistics, the player going first wins slightly over 50% of the time even with the coin as it is. The coin feels strong because you get a sharp advantage the turn you use it, but the advantage of having one more mana to respond with as the turn 1 player outweighs the coin slowly over time.

serum321

United States606 Posts

January 17 2014 15:24 GMT

The coin needs to be powerful because player 1 getting an extra turn to finish their opponent first is really powerful.

Doctor Faustus

United States0 Posts

January 17 2014 15:25 GMT

On January 17 2014 23:55 Cyberpunk1792 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Agreed. The fact that the coin counts as a spell and is a card at all is what leads to problems. Even if global statistics show that the first player wins a little more than 50% of the time, I'd like to see what the numbers say when facing rogues who start with the coin and combo off it. And now that Twilight Drake or Mountain Giant are seeing more play than ever, maybe even the global statistics will start to change...

Clandrone

9 Posts

January 17 2014 15:45 GMT

There is statistical evidence that proves going first (almost) always increases your chance of wining. The beauty of the coin design is that it FEELS like you have an advantage when going second, but really it's an illusion. Just remember anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. Statistics suggest you (almost) always have a better chance at winning going first. The only time going second is beneficial is with certain cards in certain classes (Rogue with Defias Ringleader or Mage with Mana Wyrm for instance).

Here is a link to a blue post where the designer outlines why the coin is in the game:

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/9948104957

And here is a site that has tracked over 31,000 arena games. The win rate for the player who goes first is always higher (2-3% higher) no matter what set of data you look at:

http://www.arenamastery.com/sitewide.php

Blizzard did their jobs well. The general consensus is going second feels like an advantage but statistically it's really a disadvantage (most of the time). Having an extra card and the coin, and having the coin count as a spell, is the only thing that lets the second player have a fair chance at winning close to 50% of the time.

awesomoecalypse

United States2235 Posts

January 17 2014 15:49 GMT

The cases where coin is genuinely better than going first are fairly rare. Rogues with defias, and mages with mana wyrm and a 1 mana spell are the main cases I can think of. In virtually all other cases going first gives you tempo and 1 more mana to respond to what your opponent does throughout the game, which is a huge advantage.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36375 Posts

January 17 2014 15:50 GMT

That's interesting. I always feel more comfortable going second with a coin as well but I guess the stats don't lie.

Eyx

England165 Posts

January 17 2014 16:04 GMT

#10

Coin wild growth the real imba

Tyrran

France777 Posts

January 17 2014 16:08 GMT

#11

Think of it this way:

The coins will give you one additional mana ONE turn in the game. So you will for example be able to play a 4 drop one turn before your opponent. Your opponent on the other hand, is able to play his 1,2,3,5,6,7 and 8 drop one turn before you.

The coin give you one turn when you can take the initiative instead of playing reactively to your opponent. It is useful, sometimes strong, but definitively not OP.

BBS

Germany204 Posts

January 17 2014 16:18 GMT

#12

Actually I love getting the coin and then getting it out on my Mana Wyrm with Ice Lance or anything that does not take too much mana. Gives me a 3/3 in round two, if everything goes according to plan.

awesomoecalypse

United States2235 Posts

January 17 2014 16:21 GMT

#13

On January 18 2014 01:18 BBS wrote:
Actually I love getting the coin and then getting it out on my Mana Wyrm with Ice Lance or anything that does not take too much mana. Gives me a 3/3 in round two, if everything goes according to plan.

Mana Wyrm+coin+mirror image is definitely one of the best opening plays in the game, up there with defias. Either your opponent has a removal spell in hand, or they're behind all the way into the midgame.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

January 17 2014 16:27 GMT

#14

It's not too strong because going first is still advantaged, however I do think it balances the game in a poor way.
It is very strong for some classes but mediocre for others which is not very elegant. It also feels a little silly how some cards like defias ringleader are really strong with the coin but quite mediocre when you're on the play.

I do think however it's a nice touch mostly because having the coin feels an advantage. Other fixes can balance the game but can make the game feel too much like coming from behind, for example the fix in Go of giving the 2nd player a few points feels worse than actually balancing the game outcome itself. That said I think the coin being a spell should be removed and the second player should get a little something else to balance for it so that the coin/play advantage doesn't depend so much on class. For example keep the coin but make it a one time ability (so not a card) but also give the second player a little more life.

Liquid`Nazgul

22427 Posts

January 17 2014 16:34 GMT

#15

Since statistics unquestionable prove going second is still a disadvantage I'm just going to say playing with the coin is more fun. Nobody can take that away from you.

Zdrastochye

Ivory Coast6262 Posts

January 17 2014 16:51 GMT

#16

I think having the coin is hit or miss. It can really make a powerful early-game addition, or to use removal a turn before your enemy accounts for it, but many times I've found myself in better spots simply by going first.

Complete

United States1864 Posts

January 17 2014 17:57 GMT

#17

Out if curiosity, is there any statistics on Rogue having coin compared to the other races? Do they have above a 50% win-rate going 2nd?

serum321

United States606 Posts

January 17 2014 18:05 GMT

#18

On January 18 2014 02:57 Complete wrote:
Out if curiosity, is there any statistics on Rogue having coin compared to the other races? Do they have above a 50% win-rate going 2nd?

Yeah, its in the blue post linked up above. Rogues and priests are the only two classes that statistically have an advantage of going 2nd with a 51.5% win rate.

SagaZ

France3460 Posts

January 17 2014 18:20 GMT

#19

I think coin is fine, it is extremelly strong but so is first turn advantage
what i would like to see is the 2nd player only being able to mulligan 3 cards, and then drawing their 4th card before first player gets his turn

Schelim

Austria11528 Posts

January 17 2014 18:48 GMT

#20

On January 18 2014 03:05 serum321 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah, its in the blue post linked up above. Rogues and priests are the only two classes that statistically have an advantage of going 2nd with a 51.5% win rate.

that's interesting. why does priest have a better winrate going second/with the coin? i play almost exclusively priest in constructed and i fail to see how the coin helps us.