The Coin mechanic

jonhy-

Slovakia167 Posts

January 17 2014 14:40 GMT

well everytime when the game is starting i always hope to get the coin i feel like its just so much better
i think its really good because its a CARD what can give u and edge in lot of situations (Rogue Combo,Mountain Giant,twiligth drake etc.)
so why the coin is not something like a hero power? i think it should be better then having a little extra 50% of the time what can help some decks or the rogue combos?
what u guys think?

OlDan

Austria36 Posts

January 17 2014 14:47 GMT

I also feel that the coin might be a bit OP. Perhaps change it so it's not a proper spell/card...

Cyberpunk1792

United States0 Posts

January 17 2014 14:55 GMT

On January 17 2014 23:47 OlDan wrote:
I also feel that the coin might be a bit OP. Perhaps change it so it's not a proper spell/card...

I think that if it were not a spell, but some other category on its own it would be way more balanced. The ability of the coin itself is not that overpowered in my opinion, but rather the fact that it is a spell and combos well with multiple cards.

Muirhead

United States556 Posts

January 17 2014 14:58 GMT

If you look at statistics, the player going first wins slightly over 50% of the time even with the coin as it is. The coin feels strong because you get a sharp advantage the turn you use it, but the advantage of having one more mana to respond with as the turn 1 player outweighs the coin slowly over time.

serum321

United States606 Posts

January 17 2014 15:24 GMT

The coin needs to be powerful because player 1 getting an extra turn to finish their opponent first is really powerful.

Doctor Faustus

United States0 Posts

January 17 2014 15:25 GMT

On January 17 2014 23:55 Cyberpunk1792 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Agreed. The fact that the coin counts as a spell and is a card at all is what leads to problems. Even if global statistics show that the first player wins a little more than 50% of the time, I'd like to see what the numbers say when facing rogues who start with the coin and combo off it. And now that Twilight Drake or Mountain Giant are seeing more play than ever, maybe even the global statistics will start to change...

Clandrone

9 Posts

January 17 2014 15:45 GMT

There is statistical evidence that proves going first (almost) always increases your chance of wining. The beauty of the coin design is that it FEELS like you have an advantage when going second, but really it's an illusion. Just remember anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. Statistics suggest you (almost) always have a better chance at winning going first. The only time going second is beneficial is with certain cards in certain classes (Rogue with Defias Ringleader or Mage with Mana Wyrm for instance).

Here is a link to a blue post where the designer outlines why the coin is in the game:

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/9948104957

And here is a site that has tracked over 31,000 arena games. The win rate for the player who goes first is always higher (2-3% higher) no matter what set of data you look at:

http://www.arenamastery.com/sitewide.php

Blizzard did their jobs well. The general consensus is going second feels like an advantage but statistically it's really a disadvantage (most of the time). Having an extra card and the coin, and having the coin count as a spell, is the only thing that lets the second player have a fair chance at winning close to 50% of the time.

awesomoecalypse

United States2235 Posts

January 17 2014 15:49 GMT

The cases where coin is genuinely better than going first are fairly rare. Rogues with defias, and mages with mana wyrm and a 1 mana spell are the main cases I can think of. In virtually all other cases going first gives you tempo and 1 more mana to respond to what your opponent does throughout the game, which is a huge advantage.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36375 Posts

January 17 2014 15:50 GMT

That's interesting. I always feel more comfortable going second with a coin as well but I guess the stats don't lie.

Eyx

England165 Posts

January 17 2014 16:04 GMT

#10

Coin wild growth the real imba

Tyrran

France777 Posts

January 17 2014 16:08 GMT

#11

Think of it this way:

The coins will give you one additional mana ONE turn in the game. So you will for example be able to play a 4 drop one turn before your opponent. Your opponent on the other hand, is able to play his 1,2,3,5,6,7 and 8 drop one turn before you.

The coin give you one turn when you can take the initiative instead of playing reactively to your opponent. It is useful, sometimes strong, but definitively not OP.

BBS

Germany204 Posts

January 17 2014 16:18 GMT

#12

Actually I love getting the coin and then getting it out on my Mana Wyrm with Ice Lance or anything that does not take too much mana. Gives me a 3/3 in round two, if everything goes according to plan.

awesomoecalypse

United States2235 Posts

January 17 2014 16:21 GMT

#13

On January 18 2014 01:18 BBS wrote:
Actually I love getting the coin and then getting it out on my Mana Wyrm with Ice Lance or anything that does not take too much mana. Gives me a 3/3 in round two, if everything goes according to plan.

Mana Wyrm+coin+mirror image is definitely one of the best opening plays in the game, up there with defias. Either your opponent has a removal spell in hand, or they're behind all the way into the midgame.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

January 17 2014 16:27 GMT

#14

It's not too strong because going first is still advantaged, however I do think it balances the game in a poor way.
It is very strong for some classes but mediocre for others which is not very elegant. It also feels a little silly how some cards like defias ringleader are really strong with the coin but quite mediocre when you're on the play.

I do think however it's a nice touch mostly because having the coin feels an advantage. Other fixes can balance the game but can make the game feel too much like coming from behind, for example the fix in Go of giving the 2nd player a few points feels worse than actually balancing the game outcome itself. That said I think the coin being a spell should be removed and the second player should get a little something else to balance for it so that the coin/play advantage doesn't depend so much on class. For example keep the coin but make it a one time ability (so not a card) but also give the second player a little more life.

Liquid`Nazgul

22427 Posts

January 17 2014 16:34 GMT

#15

Since statistics unquestionable prove going second is still a disadvantage I'm just going to say playing with the coin is more fun. Nobody can take that away from you.

Zdrastochye

Ivory Coast6262 Posts

January 17 2014 16:51 GMT

#16

I think having the coin is hit or miss. It can really make a powerful early-game addition, or to use removal a turn before your enemy accounts for it, but many times I've found myself in better spots simply by going first.

Complete

United States1864 Posts

January 17 2014 17:57 GMT

#17

Out if curiosity, is there any statistics on Rogue having coin compared to the other races? Do they have above a 50% win-rate going 2nd?

serum321

United States606 Posts

January 17 2014 18:05 GMT

#18

On January 18 2014 02:57 Complete wrote:
Out if curiosity, is there any statistics on Rogue having coin compared to the other races? Do they have above a 50% win-rate going 2nd?

Yeah, its in the blue post linked up above. Rogues and priests are the only two classes that statistically have an advantage of going 2nd with a 51.5% win rate.

SagaZ

France3460 Posts

January 17 2014 18:20 GMT

#19

I think coin is fine, it is extremelly strong but so is first turn advantage
what i would like to see is the 2nd player only being able to mulligan 3 cards, and then drawing their 4th card before first player gets his turn

Schelim

Austria11528 Posts

January 17 2014 18:48 GMT

#20

On January 18 2014 03:05 serum321 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah, its in the blue post linked up above. Rogues and priests are the only two classes that statistically have an advantage of going 2nd with a 51.5% win rate.

that's interesting. why does priest have a better winrate going second/with the coin? i play almost exclusively priest in constructed and i fail to see how the coin helps us.

EleanorRIgby

Canada3923 Posts

January 17 2014 18:50 GMT

#21

coin+wild growth+innervate and summon a big mob early on lol

Serejai

6007 Posts

January 17 2014 19:00 GMT

#22

I feel like people who play rush decks and get a Coin must have a noticeably higher win rate. Having warlocks play a turn 4 Giant a Priest that can come up with a turn 4 20/20 Lightwarden... or druids that can double innervate + coin something out. It's pretty much game over in any of those scenarios, all because of the coin.

EleanorRIgby

Canada3923 Posts

January 17 2014 19:14 GMT

#23

On January 18 2014 04:00 Serejai wrote:
I feel like people who play rush decks and get a Coin must have a noticeably higher win rate. Having warlocks play a turn 4 Giant a Priest that can come up with a turn 4 20/20 Lightwarden... or druids that can double innervate + coin something out. It's pretty much game over in any of those scenarios, all because of the coin.

i wouldnt call it game over at all really. got to use a lot of cards and 1 decent spell can take care of it.

serum321

United States606 Posts

January 17 2014 20:11 GMT

#24

On January 18 2014 03:48 Schelim wrote:

Show nested quote +

that's interesting. why does priest have a better winrate going second/with the coin? i play almost exclusively priest in constructed and i fail to see how the coin helps us.

Just guessing, but this was also much earlier in beta when games were slower. Priests were top tier at that time and mind control still only cost 8. Priests do control well and I find playing control it is better going second.

I've noticed just the opposite. Going first with an aggro deck is a HUGE advantage, so long as you have a proper curve to play out. I've played a lot of aggro and board control warlock and I can't count the number of games where my opponent won only because they went first, thus they had an extra turn to damage me.

grantelbot

Germany0 Posts

January 17 2014 21:59 GMT

#25

I still like going 2nd and having the coin just cause I get to see 4 cards from my deck and swap out what I want rather than 3. Its still just a feeling but with some bitchy decks with few early 1/2 drop minions it sure as hell is beneficial to get more chances of getting one in the first place or swapping out cards I don't want early.

Maand

326 Posts

January 17 2014 22:15 GMT

#26

I prefer going first. It's like having coin every turn, but the turn after your opponent used his coin.

broodbucket

Australia963 Posts

January 17 2014 22:16 GMT

#27

Discussing the coin is always tricky because it's not overpowered; the problem is that it's inconsistent. The coin is a big deal for some decks, and not for others. The fact that Defias Ringleader is in decks for the sole purpose of being coined out on turn 1 is a bit dodgy, I don't like the mechanic but there has to be something given to the player going second.

The way I see it, the coin should stay as-is until Blizzard comes up with a better idea altogether.

Korlin

Canada142 Posts

January 17 2014 22:36 GMT

#28

On January 18 2014 03:48 Schelim wrote:

Show nested quote +

that's interesting. why does priest have a better winrate going second/with the coin? i play almost exclusively priest in constructed and i fail to see how the coin helps us.

Against aggressive decks as priest I find the difference of being able to Holy Nova on turn 4 instead of 5 makes a huge difference. Also helps with Wild Pyromancer.

Greendotz

United Kingdom2053 Posts

January 17 2014 22:41 GMT

#29

It's not without it's problems. but I think it's a really good alternative when you look at other TCG games. Before Hearthstone I'd played Pokemon TCG for about 9 months and if you go second in that game you're completely fucked. Imagine going second in Hearthstone and not getting a coin AND not getting an extra card. Yeah, amazing to think Pokemon TCG has been around for over a decade and only now they're starting to consider giving the second player some kind of benefit.

Perhaps the coins biggest problem is the Rouge's combo mechanic works in such a way that going second works out so incredibly well for them, since the coin is basically a "set up a combo" card.

jonhy-

Slovakia167 Posts

January 18 2014 16:22 GMT

#30

i dont say that coin is a bad thing the second player deffinitly need it but the fact it is a CARD makes it so powerfull for some scenarios so why it is not a spell like hero power so u cant combo or help the mountain giant with it

asaed

United States1412 Posts

January 18 2014 17:01 GMT

#31

One thing to note about the stats is that although I agree that going first is still statistically better, you have to wonder if a lot of people are using the coin POORLY. I feel like I see it all the time, and perhaps some decks are simply going to benefit more from coin than others. The stats somewhat obscure some of the nuances that go on with the coin.

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