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On November 02 2008 16:56 SpiralArchitect wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2008 16:39 Jibba wrote:
Can you imagine if Japan's military leaders weren't retarded xenophobic fascists? They already had resources from Korea and most of Manchuria, why not make a push for central Siberia and actually help your allies? Or execute your surprise attack on the Pacific Fleet where it'll sink to the bottom of a 35,000ft ocean instead of on a bunch of ships floating in a 50ft deep HARBOR where they can be repaired within months. Or hell, go after the massive oil tanks that'll blow up the entire base.
Pearl Harbor had to have been one of the stupidest fucking attacks in the history of man kind. Its actually one of the most successful surprise attacks in modern warfare iirc. Dont quote me on it though I cant remember where I read that.
It was; too bad the result of it off set all the effort put into it. Never ever leave your enemy entact after such a provoking attack in a tota warl. Key word, total war. Either aim to finish or ignore, do not heedlessly get more people involved. You should try to divide and conquer, not provoke everyone.
That being said.
Japan had a good case to push into Russia, but had their own goals on top of the fact America had stopped giving refined oil to Japan, they flipped their shit and went after us.
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iPF[Div] you are truly ignorant. you need to look at your sources more closely. I literally lol'd when i looked at them. I can't believe you take at face value what a conspiracy theorist and what the president of the socialist workers party in america have to say. please get some REAL sources.
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United States22883 Posts
Tactically it worked (they killed lots of people), but strategically it was miserable.
All but 1 of the ships were fully repaired and sent into battle, the oil was untouched as were the submarines (Japan didn't think Americans were "tough" enough for submarine warfare.) All they did was damage some ships, instead of actually damaging the infrastructure supporting the ships. Midway was the decisive battle Yamamoto wanted, but he could've started with one in the Pacific and taken those ships out forever. Or at least they could've damaged the means for repairing all the ships.
The lasting effects of Pearl Harbor were a pissed off US and 1 broken ship. The only analogies I can think of relate to WoW. >.>
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Edit: NVM being retarded.
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On November 02 2008 14:51 baal wrote:
oh god i knew the "it saved lives in the long run" card was going to show up, but no so fast... you ignorant retards that swallow all the shit in your history book.
Japan is a fucking island, it lost all his naval capacity, its allies were defeated, surrender was matter of time, are you stupid faggots so naive to think they needed 2 cities evaporated to surrender?
There is a reason why nuclear weapons are banned dont you think?
Do you actually have statistics or arguments of substance or do you just call people faggots?
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United States22883 Posts
On November 02 2008 17:16 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2008 14:51 baal wrote:
oh god i knew the "it saved lives in the long run" card was going to show up, but no so fast... you ignorant retards that swallow all the shit in your history book.
Japan is a fucking island, it lost all his naval capacity, its allies were defeated, surrender was matter of time, are you stupid faggots so naive to think they needed 2 cities evaporated to surrender?
There is a reason why nuclear weapons are banned dont you think? Do you actually have statistics or arguments of substance or do you just call people faggots?
He hates the US is his argument. Nevermind the fact that the weeping pussy he crawled out of has infected more people than HIV and malaria combined.
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On November 02 2008 17:10 Jibba wrote:
Tactically it worked (they killed lots of people), but strategically it was miserable.
All but 1 of the ships were fully repaired and sent into battle, the oil was untouched as were the submarines (Japan didn't think Americans were "tough" enough for submarine warfare.) All they did was damage some ships, instead of actually damaging the infrastructure supporting the ships. Midway was the decisive battle Yamamoto wanted, but he could've started with one in the Pacific and taken those ships out forever. Or at least they could've damaged the means for repairing all the ships.
The lasting effects of Pearl Harbor were a pissed off US and 1 broken ship. The only analogies I can think of relate to WoW. >.>
I believe, in Tora tora tora, there was talk of a third bombing run by the planes but the admiral called it off, calling it such a large success, so ya...
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Sort of, they had choices here, they should have showed the japanese what the bomb could do first and then demanded surrender, they didnt need to drop the bombs surrender was enivatable, their allies had been defeated and they were pushed back to Japan
On November 02 2008 17:16 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2008 14:51 baal wrote:
oh god i knew the "it saved lives in the long run" card was going to show up, but no so fast... you ignorant retards that swallow all the shit in your history book.
Japan is a fucking island, it lost all his naval capacity, its allies were defeated, surrender was matter of time, are you stupid faggots so naive to think they needed 2 cities evaporated to surrender?
There is a reason why nuclear weapons are banned dont you think? Do you actually have statistics or arguments of substance or do you just call people faggots?
No NoodsOfWrath, baal is right
Japanese had lost many decisive battles in the last few years of the war, their naval bases were crippled, Ameirca had key islands around Japan and with England, America, and Russia just about to invade, they would have bitten their tounge and surrendered,
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It's impossible to understand if the bombings were justified, unless we had statistics from multiple outcomes scenarios involving if we invaded/dropped 1 bomb/etc/etc/etc/etc.... and even then you can't place a number or price on the value of any individual's life, it's pointless to even bother.... we should mourn for the lives that were lost and hope nothing like this ever happens again
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On November 02 2008 14:54 baal wrote:
you dont kill children to save soldiers
Oh shit humanity has been fighting war all wrong for 1000s of years?!
Please, you go to war, a fucking Total War, you except some dirty shit. This generation only knows about proxy wars, or the ocassional Conventional warfare; but please, when the whole world is at war and upwards of 50 million civilians have died - a lot by your own countries hands - don't take the morale high ground.
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In this case, there are three points of views.
1. Japan - obviously unjustified, yet in the long run, save the country from potential oblivion
2. China, Korea, and other Asian occupied countries - obviously justified because the bomb just SAVED these countries from further pillage/rape/destruction at the hands of Japanese.
3. US - depending on your beliefs of whether you want a "black mark" in history for killing civillians. Or do you prefer to save American lives. I would think the latter is more important. And unlike Iraq and this whole BS "war on terror", dropping the bomb saved many American lives.
I think it's kind of funny that in the end, it's actually the US POV that the dropping is debatable, because it ruins American's wholesome image.
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Had the bombs not been dropped, more people would have died.
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how have people failed to mention that these bombs didnt just kill people
those who survived in surrounding areas died a slow painful and miserable death to radiation poisoning, completely disregarding other nuclear fallout.
its also debated whether or not there's a correllation between the birthing of kids with genetic defects as a result of the radiation(though i did just read another study that denies even the possibility. I obviously dont know enough to make any claim)
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Justified.
If nuclear bombs dropped wasn't justified, then every other incident in WW2 was unjustified. Not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military bases. In a war you EXPECT casualties, military and civilian casualties. However what you're trying to do is to LIMIT the number of casualties on your OWN side.
Hell conventional bombs killed more lives than the nukes did
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Pragmatically, it ensured unconditional surrender from the Japanese which is what the US was seeking. It also helped the US posture a bit in front of the Soviet Union.
Morally...who knows? I don't think I can give an unbiased opinion. Despite being far, far removed from it I can't help but feel a little bit of animosity towards the Japanese for WWII.
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On November 02 2008 17:16 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2008 14:51 baal wrote:
oh god i knew the "it saved lives in the long run" card was going to show up, but no so fast... you ignorant retards that swallow all the shit in your history book.
Japan is a fucking island, it lost all his naval capacity, its allies were defeated, surrender was matter of time, are you stupid faggots so naive to think they needed 2 cities evaporated to surrender?
There is a reason why nuclear weapons are banned dont you think? Do you actually have statistics or arguments of substance or do you just call people faggots?
NoobsOfWrath, meet baal.
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On November 02 2008 17:10 Jibba wrote:
Tactically it worked (they killed lots of people), but strategically it was miserable.
All but 1 of the ships were fully repaired and sent into battle, the oil was untouched as were the submarines (Japan didn't think Americans were "tough" enough for submarine warfare.) All they did was damage some ships, instead of actually damaging the infrastructure supporting the ships. Midway was the decisive battle Yamamoto wanted, but he could've started with one in the Pacific and taken those ships out forever. Or at least they could've damaged the means for repairing all the ships.
The lasting effects of Pearl Harbor were a pissed off US and 1 broken ship. The only analogies I can think of relate to WoW. >.>
You should look at the stats your way off bro. I know this off the top of my head.
The Arizona - Sunk by a armor piercing round into the forward ammunition dump. Still there today.
The Utah - Either capsized or sunk, either way it never sailed again. It was used for training maneuvers at Pearl Harbor
At least a hundred planes were destroyed, crippling the pacific Air force.
1500 American lives lost in a 30 minutes raid.
Pearl Harbor made a lasting impression on the people of America and the army. It was a very well thought out attack and probably the best way for the Japanese to do it. A surprise attack at sea is hard to do since the ship is A) Moving B) Prepared for War. The ships in pearl harbor were practically unmanned, sitting ducks in every sense of the word. The effort required by the Japanese was little and the return was amazing.
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i think this is great- going back in time and speaking objectively about something we have no experience, it helps prevail over a lot of bias, yet at the same time, what pretext are we arguing with, unless someone has a relative, parent that was in WWII , etc.
no one could truly just write this off as one way... or another, and i tihnk the OP is a bit misleading... as to shape our ideas ; it only has 2 choices... "YES" or ..."NO"
when the majority if not all people, are not completely concrete on one side or the other;
i think i'll read this thread in it's entirety before i say anything further ; just skimmed the first few pages
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Do you honestly think dropping the bomb on a remote island and then calling japan up and saying surrender or else would have been as effective as dropping it on a dense urban center?
That would have been a great sign of weakness for the US, not willing to go all the way, however wrong that sounds it was total war, civilians were often targeted as people have said with napalm strikes ect. Why should the A-bomb all the sudden change targets?
It brought about Japan's surrender *arguable* but it also showed the Soviet Union what we had.
Tack all this on to the estimated costs of invading Japan and I think that it was totally justified.
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Ooh. pearl harbor as an example .
Did anyone bring up the battle of midway?
bigbig turning point of the war, major island, basically told japs it's the end of the line- it's just a matter of time now.
it was basically the america version of pearl harbor-- at least the army felt it was "getting them japs back for pearl" so to speak; i wouldn't really try to analogize the bombings of hiroshima, nag. to pearl imo.
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EPT
