On November 03 2008 22:56 CultureMisfits wrote: One of the main reasons, i am voting for mccain is because most obama supporters scare me. Its like a blind cult following. In richmond, random vcu students come up to me, telling me i have to vote for obama. Then i tell them im still undecided, and they scoff me like i am dumb. then i see TL, and i see the same attitude, the same obama elitism. Obama is a politican like all the others, he is not a fucking martyr. This blind elitism toward one candidate is how tyrants come to power.
It isn't about elitism. It is about being informed. Given all the information we could have on both candidates, the VP pick alone should scream out to you, 'WOAH SHIT.' Let alone that Obama seems better on every single issue you can name, and has handled every single thing in a far more professional, presidential manner.
The thing is, even if it boils down to Obama being completely full of shit, there's a chance he's not. A chance he will do this country far better than the other candidate, who has basically been bought off and will not serve the country first.
Your post did not deserve a serious reply in all honesty. It deserved, "How uninformed are you to honestly be undecided?" They aren't scoffing necessarily at stupidity, but from their mind it seems you are unaware of the differences of the candidates and cannot fathom how you can be undecided in so important an election.
One candidate - McCain - has been completely bought off. A corporate puppet that will help his rich friends before he helps other people. See G.W. Bush for details. Even if the same is true for Obama, even if he were a puppet or corporate shill, he would be the best thing for your country given your two choices. The difference is, there is truly a big chance he isn't.
Even in the most cynical of situations as described above, the rest of the world is honestly amazed that the Republicans can get people to vote against their own interests.
Seriously, the VP pick alone seals it. Obama's pick, Biden, is nearly a perfect complement to him as Biden is the man on foreign affairs. It covers Obama's weaknesses and in the event something happens to him, Biden can run the country far better than the last president I would imagine. In McCains case, you have Palin. This know-nothing character, who is being taught about what the VP does (and getting it wrong), who is so uninformed about everything that she doesn't make gaffs, she makes genuine errors on any issue she is asked about... which is being generous. Because she doesn't know any issues. She literally knows nothing and is in far over her head.
Most people voting for Obama aren't on the 'blue team'. People voting for McCain are most definitely on the 'red team'. And it's not a game, and I hate it when Republicans think it is.
On November 03 2008 22:56 CultureMisfits wrote: One of the main reasons, i am voting for mccain is because most obama supporters scare me. Its like a blind cult following. In richmond, random vcu students come up to me, telling me i have to vote for obama. Then i tell them im still undecided, and they scoff me like i am dumb. then i see TL, and i see the same attitude, the same obama elitism. Obama is a politican like all the others, he is not a fucking martyr. This blind elitism toward one candidate is how tyrants come to power.
It isn't about elitism. It is about being informed.
I don't buy the informed argument.
Obama supporters are "informed" even though:
1. Obama campaigns as a moderate, but has had one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate.
2. Obama campaigns on unity yet has never broken with his party's hard line on ANY major issue. He isn't exactly a Bill Clinton.
3. Obama says that he will be a leader, and yet he has consistently deffered to party leaders and done exactly what he was pressured to do. Every politician feels pressure from his party leaders. Some, who are brave, are willing/able to withstand the pressure and others buckle and do what they say.
4. Obama says he will be decisive, and yet votes present a large percentage of time rather than take a stand on something that could bite him later.
5. Obama says he will change Washington, the world, and everything. Yet he has never achieved anything in the past to suggest he is capable of changing ANYTHING. If Giuliani said he would change Washington, that would mean something because he changed NY--which isn't easy. But when Obama says it, it is just empty words.
Seems like Obama supporters, rather than being "informed" are really just "gullible".
Compare McCain against each of these points:
1. Moderate record?--For almost 30 years....YES. Cosponsors bills (on major issues BTW--not baby issues like Obama), with TED KENNEDY for goodness sake.
2. Broken with his party even under intense pressure?--that is his defining characteristic. And on MAJOR issues (Global Warming, GITMO, Immigration, etc--not just on baby issues).
3. Withstands party leaders and leads on his own?--Yes...for decades.
4. Takes stands or votes "present"?--If he is anything he is decisive. See his support for the surge.
5. Reliable source of change?--Imagine if Obama says he will cut pork spending and McCain says he will cut pork spending? Who do you believe more? Of course McCain. And THAT would be a BIG change away from Washington culture.
"I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."
1. Who cares? What are you fox news? Liberal in America is moderate in Europe. Get your head out of your ass and become a progressive European nation in some respects. Liberal isn't a bad word. Words that are often used to define liberal - progressive, forward thinking, tolerant, open-minded, does this sound like such a bad thing?
2. ANY major issue? Most people voted for the Iraq war... who didn't? That's a pretty major issue. And surely provides deeper insight than those who voted for it because it was the political safe thing to do at the time.
3. Obama has grown a lot in this campaign. He is his own man running the show, and has learned from his past and is eager about implementing his ideas about the future. Before this campaign he was already a better candidate, as it nears it end, he shows impeccable character with impeccable judgment. See the article of him talking to General Patraeus. He puts his foot down now.
4. What?
5. In this election, it's about philosophies and the correct mindset. Obama has it. McCain has been bought off by corporate interests. He does not. His slogan isn't, "country first" it will be "my rich endorsements & friends first".
How do you justify a VP pick like that. I recall you thinking she did fine during the debates. Maybe you think she did fine during the questions in the interviews too. Seriously... you cannot have a country first slogan when if something happens to you, you leave the country with a moron.
McCain supporters are both misinformed, nor do they vote rationally. That fact is the scariest thing about politics. That someone can cut off the logical - rational - common sense part of their brains and go to the polls to vote.
If Obama wins, I wouldn't want to see you whine like you want to see the democrats whine. It isn't about teams, as I said before. I would prefer to see you change your mind and listen to the voice of logic and rationale.
On November 04 2008 03:42 MYM.Testie wrote: 1. Who cares? What are you fox news? Liberal in America is moderate in Europe. Get your head out of your ass and become a progressive European nation in some respects. Liberal isn't a bad word. Words that are often used to define liberal - progressive, forward thinking, tolerant, open-minded, does this sound like such a bad thing?
2. ANY major issue? Most people voted for the Iraq war... who didn't? That's a pretty major issue. And surely provides deeper insight than those who voted for it because it was the political safe thing to do at the time.
3. Obama has grown a lot in this campaign. He is his own man running the show, and has learned from his past and is eager about implementing his ideas about the future. Before this campaign he was already a better candidate, as it nears it end, he shows impeccable character with impeccable judgment. See the article of him talking to General Patraeus. He puts his foot down now.
4. What?
5. In this election, it's about philosophies and the correct mindset. Obama has it. McCain has been bought off by corporate interests. He does not. His slogan isn't, "country first" it will be "my rich endorsements & friends first".
How do you justify a VP pick like that. I recall you thinking she did fine during the debates. Maybe you think she did fine during the questions in the interviews too. Seriously... you cannot have a country first slogan when if something happens to you, you leave the country with a moron.
McCain supporters are both misinformed, nor do they vote rationally. That fact is the scariest thing about politics. That someone can cut off the logical - rational - common sense part of their brains and go to the polls to vote.
If Obama wins, I wouldn't want to see you whine like you want to see the democrats whine. It isn't about teams, as I said before. I would prefer to see you change your mind and listen to the voice of logic and rationale.
Good post, and the first point about liberal meaning progressive, forward thinking, tolerant, and open-minded is one I try to get across to people all the time.
On November 03 2008 22:56 CultureMisfits wrote: One of the main reasons, i am voting for mccain is because most obama supporters scare me. Its like a blind cult following. In richmond, random vcu students come up to me, telling me i have to vote for obama. Then i tell them im still undecided, and they scoff me like i am dumb. then i see TL, and i see the same attitude, the same obama elitism. Obama is a politican like all the others, he is not a fucking martyr. This blind elitism toward one candidate is how tyrants come to power.
a valid point, but if i may be frank, a rather silly way of choosing your candidate.
shouldn't you be focusing on what the candidate will do in office? their policies and qualifications etc?
Well, i certainly agree with you that you should judge base on one's policies and qualifications, I did not intend to come off as a shallow voter. Before i came to my recent decision of picking McCain, i was leaning towards Obama, but overall still undecided. I agreed with McCain and Obama on many different issues. However, in the back of my mind i know many of their proclaimed policies and changes do not matter that much. Most of their policies will never see the day of light if they are elected. If you look at history, you will see that most campaigns are based upon trying to get voters, and once the candidate is elected, the policies that are proclaimed rarely ever follow through.
This has led me to conclude that i should make my decision on one's character, experience, and overall trustworthy. I hate to be a broken record, but lets face it, Obama really does not have much experience, and he does not have the reputation as McCain does. We almost know nothing about Obama. However, McCain has a record of being a outstanding Patriot to the U.S. Now i agree that McCain might not become a great president, however, I much rather have a bad or average president, than to put the presidency in the hands of someone who does not have much of a reputation, and does not have the overall experience. It is very very dangerous what the American people are doing. People are so desperate for a different and more liberal candidate because of the reign of Bush that they will settle for anyone who is charismatic, outspoken, different, and who can sympathize with their cause. People seem to have blind faith in Obama, and that he is the last hope. When the people are in a crisis mode, and recklessly choose a candidate to "save" them, this causes a potentially dangerous president OR tyrant to come into power. All you have to is look at history, this has happen under several occasions in Latin American, the Middle East, and GERMANY. Now, I am not saying that Obama is secretly a dictator, I'm saying is people need to be more careful and they need to be more open minded about this election. They need to respect McCain and Obama voters, and support good change in America through both candidates.
On November 03 2008 23:05 MYM.Tesite wrote:
It isn't about elitism. It is about being informed. Given all the information we could have on both candidates, the VP pick alone should scream out to you, 'WOAH SHIT.' Let alone that Obama seems better on every single issue you can name, and has handled every single thing in a far more professional, presidential manner.
The thing is, even if it boils down to Obama being completely full of shit, there's a chance he's not. A chance he will do this country far better than the other candidate, who has basically been bought off and will not serve the country first.
Your post did not deserve a serious reply in all honesty. It deserved, "How uninformed are you to honestly be undecided?" They aren't scoffing necessarily at stupidity, but from their mind it seems you are unaware of the differences of the candidates and cannot fathom how you can be undecided in so important an election.
One candidate - McCain - has been completely bought off. A corporate puppet that will help his rich friends before he helps other people. See G.W. Bush for details. Even if the same is true for Obama, even if he were a puppet or corporate shill, he would be the best thing for your country given your two choices. The difference is, there is truly a big chance he isn't.
Even in the most cynical of situations as described above, the rest of the world is honestly amazed that the Republicans can get people to vote against their own interests.
Seriously, the VP pick alone seals it. Obama's pick, Biden, is nearly a perfect complement to him as Biden is the man on foreign affairs. It covers Obama's weaknesses and in the event something happens to him, Biden can run the country far better than the last president I would imagine. In McCains case, you have Palin. This know-nothing character, who is being taught about what the VP does (and getting it wrong), who is so uninformed about everything that she doesn't make gaffs, she makes genuine errors on any issue she is asked about... which is being generous. Because she doesn't know any issues. She literally knows nothing and is in far over her head.
Most people voting for Obama aren't on the 'blue team'. People voting for McCain are most definitely on the 'red team'. And it's not a game, and I hate it when Republicans think it is.
First off, I am at least moderately informed about this election. I have watched all 3 presidential debates in full. I have also kept informed through the newspaper and other medium.
Second, I am not a Republican, in fact I refuse to label myself to one party. I hate Bush just as much as the next guy. Hell, if i felt like it would make a difference i probably would vote Independent or Libertarian.
Third, I agree with you on some degree about Palin. She isnt the cream of the crop, and it was an unwise choice by McCain. However, I think McCain was overly influenced by his party to pick her, because they thought she would obtain the Hillary vote. And I also want to say that Palin isn't as bad as the media tries to portray. I agree she isnt the most intelligent person, but she isn't stupid. I think a lot of her problem, is that she is very hesitant of what she wants to say, partly because she is trying to appease the people and her party. Again, I am not taking up for Palin, she is a terrible choice, but she is not as bad as the media portrays.'
Fourth, where do you get this information that McCain is a corporate puppet who has been bought off. I would like to see some hard evidence. If you think McCain only helps the rich based upon his tax plan compared to Obama's, you have thought wrong. I believe McCain and Obama want to achieve the same goal but have different methods. Obama wants to impose higher tax rates to the people who make $250,000 or more. This is not so good because:
1. For a small business who earns $250,000, this tax plan is terrible. $250,000 is not much money when you think of all the yearly expenses this business has to spend in order to support itself. This could cause more small businesses to go out of business and give more power and control to major corporations, something that you obviously don't want.
2. I agree that some people abuse capitalism and make an absurd amount of money, more than they should. However, Obama's policy to tax the rich more would make the Constitution out to be a fraud. Its discriminating towards one class of people, and no matter how much we want to equalize the distribution, we should not fall to this conclusion.
3. Whether you believe me or not, It is good to have a class of insanely rich people, it is good for the economy and government. It gets people to invest money in the government and the economy. It also gets these powerful rich people to care about how the government is doing, because if the government falls they fall. This was one of Alexander Hamilton's core beliefs, and he was the founder of the 1st National Bank of the United States, and one of the major forerunners of America's economy.
And finally it is a game, if you understand the history of American culture you wouldn't disagree with me. It has been like this since Andrew Jackson, maybe even before. In the end, the policies that these two candidates convey does not matter, they will hardly live up to what they see. And in many instances, a candidate will do the complete opposite as president than what he had said in his campaign.
Also, I am not going to say Liberalism is bad, it is good in many regards. But people are very much subjected into thinking that it is greater then what it really is. Liberalism is bad in some ways because it gives many rights in the hands of the government. On paper national health insurance looks nice, but hey you sacrifice your right to have it or not. Conservatism in a way protects the rights and liberties of Americans more so than liberalism. Conservatism insures that this country is based upon everyone having a fair start, and the opportunity to rise, if one wants. Not everyone is going to be equal, but they will have a equal start. It is bad for the government to control where people stand in society and try to make them equal, it compromises liberty and freedom. I should have the freedom to be a bad person and not make it far in life, and have to be struggle to make ends meet.
On November 04 2008 04:41 Jumperer wrote: based on my experience of surfing over forums all over the internet. I can safely say that all mccain supporters are logically retarded in some way or another. It is nearly impossible to defeat them in an argument because they are disconnected from the reality. Another thing I notice is that they all tend to use color or bold their text and/or underline or make their font bigger than normal in their forum posting. A little bit odd and weird, but i guess that's what they do to make a point.
So in conclusion, mccain supporters are about as smart as people who believe that fastest require more skill than normal SC.
So how do we fight off these idiots? it's simple, give them exactly what they want, VOTE FOR MCCAIN. Let him run this country into the ground and ruin the US's world standing for four more year.
By 2012, the republicans party should be dead, and with it, the politics of fear and hatred.
DO YOU WANT TO KILL OFF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY? VOTE FOR MCCAIN.
I thought 8 years was enough of a lesson for republicans, but it's not. So why do you think 12 years will work? Current condition is so bad that if you don't want change now - you will never want it.
1. Obama campaigns as a moderate, but has had one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate.
And McCain voted against the Equal Pay Act.
What America needs now isn't a politician, but a Statesmen Not a Clinton, but a Lincoln Not a Reagan, but an FDR (brace for impact: Oh noes he prolonged the depression, because you know, there is always a plan to fix something that never happened before; obviously being voted in 4 more times means nothing)
Mccain ran a 100% negative campaign and obama ran based on bringing the country together, hope, and change. NO WAIT, nothing really matters, lets just vote for the white guy because history of the american culture says so.
are you calling me a racist, because i do not support Obama?
AND i said this plan is terrible for small businesses who make 250,000 or MORE.
and, thank you for showing me you have an understanding of Obama's economic plan by linking me to a website that is most likely not even credible
rofl stop making Obama look like a saint, haha, he ran negative ads just as Mccain did.
conservatism isnt for peoples rights nowadays, fuck offhand i cant really think of any time it has been for peoples rights.
Conservatives were for the patriot act. Conservatives want to ban gay marriage. Conservatives want to overly regulate stem cell research Conservatives want to ban abortion. Conservatives want to..... etc
could go on for hours.
That post by culturemisfits is definitely incorrect when saying that conservatives are for increasing peoples rights.
Sadist, i didn't say increase, i said preserve fundamental liberties.
Gay marriage , stem cell, abortion are obviously not fundamental, they are new concepts. And in progressing these ideas, i think liberalism is good, but to say liberalism is good in all aspects of freedom and liberty is just plain wrong.
On November 04 2008 05:24 CultureMisfits wrote: Sadist, i didn't say increase, i said preserve fundamental liberties.
Gay marriage , stem cell, abortion are obviously not fundamental, they are new concepts. And in progressing these ideas, i think liberalism is good, but to say liberalism is good in all aspects of freedom and liberty is just plain wrong.
obviously nothing is ever 100% good.
Conservatism (nowadays at least) is anti new ideas. 60 years ago, racial equality wasnt fundamental among these people. Fundamental is what you make it, to conservatives it takes quite a while for "fundamental" to change.
Being a conservative is NOT a good thing, being a liberal person who has critical thinking and tries to see the results is because you dont have a negative stigma towards change. People are conservative because they are content, not everybody is content, things can always be better which is the liberal idea.
I am not for liberalism nor for conservatism. I think they are both good in certain areas and that we need both. Conservatism is not as bad as you say, it keeps liberalism in check. We need to have conservatism to preserve the republic and keep this country from turning into a socialist or communist state.
And you think constant change and improving is always good? heh. Too much change at a rapid state is a catalyst for a revolution and anarchy.
On November 04 2008 05:34 CultureMisfits wrote: I am not for liberalism nor for conservatism. I think they are both good in certain areas and that we need both. Conservatism is not as bad as you say, it keeps liberalism in check. We need to have conservatism to preserve the republic and keep this country from turning into a socialist or communist state.
And you think constant change and improving is always good? heh. Too much change at a rapid state is a catalyst for a revolution and anarchy.
this is why you need critical thinking with liberalism.
changing for changes sake isnt always a good thing. Im speaking more on social and scientific issues anyway. You wont have anarchy with things like this.
Conservatives that are knowledgeable and arent religious hicks are obviously helpful, its always good to hear differing opinions, but I dont believe they are helpful if they are the majority.
Yes so basically either side has their use, IF critical thinking is involved. This is what bothers me about the Republican party currently. They seem to flaunt this proud disdain for critical thinking (scoffing at stuff like "science" and "context") and try and paint the world in absolute Good and Evil (with them being Holy of course and everyone else totally depraved). Mccain constantly, instead of truly picking apart Obama's plans, just seems to shout some variation on "he's evil and wants to take all your money and go party with his friends the terrorists". Someone said his IQ is 133, well he sure sounds dumb in his arguments.
EPT
