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United States44204 Posts
On July 28 2026 01:34 r00ty wrote:
"I think of Coventry and have nothing to object."
-Thomas Mann commenting the bombing of his hometown of Lübeck during WW2.
As mentioned there's a clear aggressor here that committed and keeps committing an estimated shitton of war crimes and could end this war anytime they please.
For additional context, Hitler believed that the German race deserved to be destroyed for their failure to prevail in the Darwinistic struggle of nations. A large proportion of German civilian deaths were caused by the German insistence that the Allies take German soil, city by city, long after political leadership concluded the war was lost. The destruction of cities and the death of German civilians was a matter of explicit government policy by the duly elected German government who sought to use the Red Army as an instrument to carry out that policy.
It was a case of deliberate maximization of German casualties, but by the German government. Fascism, not even once.
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On July 28 2026 00:31 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2026 18:28 Excludos wrote:On July 27 2026 03:39 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 26 2026 18:21 Simberto wrote:On July 26 2026 10:13 Falling wrote:Waging economic warfare by bombing industrial production and commercial distribution centres to push out an invading army that targets civilians (human safari in Kherson), residential buildings, clearly marked red-cross vehicles, and tortures prisoners is well within the bounds of an ethically run war. Russia still has many more young men to feed into the meat grinder, so to save lives (including Russian) it's better to grind their economy to a halt any way they can-- like targetting the shadow fleet. It may be difficult to be optimistic about the future but the way Ukraine has run their war has been inspiring. I am reminded of a video of a surrendered Russian soldier who asks: "Will you take us prisoner or kill us?" Ukrainian soldier: "Prisoner. We are not you." Just so. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1uhbmin/russian_soldier_asked_ukrainian_soldier_will_you/ I think part of this is that Ukraine is very dependent on outside support. If you start committing war crimes, people in other countries start to ask if they really should continue supporting you. Meanwhile, if you act like the good guys, other countries can feel good sending you military equipment. From the Ukrainian perspective, war crimes and targetting civilians would be a strategically really bad idea. And i assume leadership knows that, and are on top of not getting bad press. Yeah, which is why it's a really bad timing that Ukraine started committing war crimes themselves it seems: https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2080084259134406875You could say one video might be a fluke or a false flag operation, but seems like there are multiple videos that Ukranians posted themselves where they slam drones into civilian cars at gas stations, mostly in Belgorod region. It's such an unforced error too, because now you're just giving munition with no real rebuttals to the other side, which is something they more or less didn't have for the past 5 years. I'm not saying it's great, but I'd argue that gas stations are legitimate targets, and it's a shame if there happen to be civilians there when you hit it I am not sure about that. As far as I understand it, there are civilian targets which are never ok to be deliberately targeted, dual use targets which are both used in a civilian as well as military capacity (like a power plant that both supplies a military base, weapons factory etc. and civilian housing) which are bit more difficult to assess, and purely military targets. Both military and dual use targets are usually fair game, but with both you always have to consider collateral damage. Blowing up a gas station in the middle of the day with a bunch of civilians queued up and no military vehicles in sight when you could just as well have done that in the night is... problematic at best I would say. Considering if "there happen to be civilians there when you hit it" is part of what you have to consider and if you don't, or what you accept as acceptable collateral is wildly disproportional, then you are entering war crime territory. I am not surprised but still disappointed to see such poor defences here. War crimes are not ok because the other side does it more, and it also shouldn't be a question of sympathy. I am especially disappointed because the actual response is right there: The difference between russia doing war crimes and ukraine doing them, apart from the scale ofc, is the fact that this is most likely not something ordered from high up. It will be down to individuals being responsible for this, but their actions will be clearly separable from the actions of ukraine and their military as a whole.
You're also deliberately choosing to ignore any kind of reasonably construed context that you are completely capable of deducting yourself if you stopped to think about it for two whole seconds. That, frankly, makes me disappointed.
Firstly, gas stations ARE civilian and military use. Military vehicles fills up at gas stations, and blowing up gas stations does have an impact on the fuel shortage overall in the nation, which directly impacts Putin's ability to wage war. Gas stations are legitimate targets, just as much as those warehouses full of military equipment are, even if they are run by civilians workers.
Secondly, you can't just "choose" when and where to attack a target. drones are sent over the border, day and night, 24/7. Targets have to be picked out depending on who got where, which ones made it without being shot down, and what's around to attack if their primary target is no longer there. At no point in time is "Well, it's daytime, so we'll just not attack this legitimate target that'll help the war effort I guess". They can't just "choose" to come back later when they see fit. That might take another 100 drones and 2 weeks to achieve.
It IS a shame that civilians are hit, even if my sympathy for the Russian people is at an all time low right now, but that doesn't mean an attack that killed civilians was automatically a war crime.
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This is just like talking about Nazis in the UA army, yes they exist, yes it’s bad, and there are way way way more in Russia. But they want you talking about UA ones. I wonder why?
They spend billions on their information campaigns, they work well.
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We didn't even say that Russia blowing up Ukranian gas stations en masse was a war crime because it wasn't (it's a bad target but that is different).
Ukraine hitting dual use targets with their drones, likely when they are about to run dry, is not a warcrime either.
But it's good to know who are Russian bots/subscribed to Russian bot channels.
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Hitting a gas station with large lines of exclusively civilian cars is not a legitimate target. In that case, the "collateral damage" is orders of magnitude higher than the damage to Russia's ability to wage war, there's tens of thousands of gas stations, they're an extremely low value target.
While we're at it, the strikes on Wildberries warehouses were purely to inflict economic damage. The pretext of them being a military target because an infinitesimal amount of their activity is to resell shitty tactical vests from Temu to grunts on the frontline is a joke.
I'm okay with both as long as Ukraine seriously attempt to limit civilian casualties (by hitting them at night for example), but we shouldn't excuse and encourge needless civilian deaths.
I understand the rage of Ukraine and cannot expect them to react in a purely rational manner, but I do expect from you guys here to do better than react with a kneejerk "Russian bots" at people like Artesimo or 2Pacalypse for seeing it differently than you.
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It’s well known that the drones are coming, you can see and hear them. They have no evacuated some of the more recent wild berries, but more often than not the Russians do not turn on there alert system because they are still pretending to be invincible and have no problems. They care more about their optics than their people.
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On July 28 2026 04:45 Dan HH wrote:
Hitting a gas station with large lines of exclusively civilian cars is not a legitimate target. In that case, the "collateral damage" is orders of magnitude higher than the damage to Russia's ability to wage war, there's tens of thousands of gas stations, they're an extremely low value target.
While we're at it, the strikes on Wildberries warehouses were purely to inflict economic damage. The pretext of them being a military target because an infinitesimal amount of their activity is to resell shitty tactical vests from Temu to grunts on the frontline is a joke.
I'm okay with both as long as Ukraine seriously attempt to limit civilian casualties (by hitting them at night for example), but we shouldn't excuse and encourge needless civilian deaths.
I understand the rage of Ukraine and cannot expect them to react in a purely rational manner, but I do expect from you guys here to do better than react with a kneejerk "Russian bots" at people like Artesimo or 2Pacalypse for seeing it differently than you.
Do we know the location? In some sections of the front there is an acute shortage of fuel and very few stations have any.
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EPT
