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On July 27 2026 03:39 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2026 18:21 Simberto wrote:On July 26 2026 10:13 Falling wrote:Waging economic warfare by bombing industrial production and commercial distribution centres to push out an invading army that targets civilians (human safari in Kherson), residential buildings, clearly marked red-cross vehicles, and tortures prisoners is well within the bounds of an ethically run war. Russia still has many more young men to feed into the meat grinder, so to save lives (including Russian) it's better to grind their economy to a halt any way they can-- like targetting the shadow fleet. It may be difficult to be optimistic about the future but the way Ukraine has run their war has been inspiring. I am reminded of a video of a surrendered Russian soldier who asks: "Will you take us prisoner or kill us?" Ukrainian soldier: "Prisoner. We are not you." Just so. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1uhbmin/russian_soldier_asked_ukrainian_soldier_will_you/ I think part of this is that Ukraine is very dependent on outside support. If you start committing war crimes, people in other countries start to ask if they really should continue supporting you. Meanwhile, if you act like the good guys, other countries can feel good sending you military equipment. From the Ukrainian perspective, war crimes and targetting civilians would be a strategically really bad idea. And i assume leadership knows that, and are on top of not getting bad press. Yeah, which is why it's a really bad timing that Ukraine started committing war crimes themselves it seems: https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2080084259134406875You could say one video might be a fluke or a false flag operation, but seems like there are multiple videos that Ukranians posted themselves where they slam drones into civilian cars at gas stations, mostly in Belgorod region. It's such an unforced error too, because now you're just giving munition with no real rebuttals to the other side, which is something they more or less didn't have for the past 5 years.
I'm not saying it's great, but I'd argue that gas stations are legitimate targets, and it's a shame if there happen to be civilians there when you hit it
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I don't think it's an optimal target, but Russians have been attacking gas stations for months at this point.
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Turns out war is a nasty affair and atrocities are bound to be committed. Who would have thought?
Wanna make a list of what both sides did so far? The Russia list will probably be significantly longer and they started an invasion into a sovereign country that is defending itself. My pity is non existend.
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On July 27 2026 20:28 r00ty wrote:
Turns out war is a nasty affair and atrocities are bound to be committed. Who would have thought?
Wanna make a list of what both sides did so far? The Russia list will probably be significantly longer and they started an invasion into a sovereign country that is defending itself. My pity is non existend.
Okay, but what about when people apply this reasoning to Israel or the US?
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Oh yes, let's talk about Israel/US-Bad here too, it's not like you got at least two other treads for that.
Btw:
Last I checked the US wasn't invaded/attacked by anyone and got criqitued extensively from most people here for it's acts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Venezuela and Iran... So wtf are you on about?
Also last I checked you won't find many people that defend or justify Israels actions after it became clear that they are doing much more than just immediate retaliation for october 7th, the immediate retaliation wasn't universally seen as bad/horrid.
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On July 27 2026 21:45 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2026 20:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 27 2026 20:28 r00ty wrote:
Turns out war is a nasty affair and atrocities are bound to be committed. Who would have thought?
Wanna make a list of what both sides did so far? The Russia list will probably be significantly longer and they started an invasion into a sovereign country that is defending itself. My pity is non existend. Okay, but what about when people apply this reasoning to Israel or the US? Oh yes, let's talk about Israel/US-Bad here too, it's not like you got at least two other treads for that. Btw: Last I checked the US wasn't invaded/attacked by anyone and got criqitued extensively from most people here for it's acts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Venezuela and Iran... So wtf are you on about? Also last I checked you won't find many people that defend or justify Israels actions after it became clear that they are doing much more than just immediate retaliation for october 7th, the immediate retaliation wasn't universally seen as bad/horrid.
What I'm getting at is bigger than any of these specific conflicts. It's about where we're heading as a society/species. It's also not about "critique", it's about killing (innocent?) people to get an outcome you want.
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Unfortunately, war crimes are par for the course in any, well, war.
Issues with fucked up units, commanders, individual soldiers doing fucked up crimes against civilian populations or prisoners of war will inevitably happen, the longer the war goes on more trauma these people accrue, and more likely it is that they will lash out at people who don't deserve it.
What can be done is for this shit to be prosecuted, but even this is a very complicated line to walk, if you go after people for "borderline" cases you risk alienating their comrades, you risk a mutiny from the people you need most.
It's a very fine line to walk, some countries do it better then other, USA, with the reactions to things like "collateral murder" video and making a law that if an American is ever arrested by IOC USA would invade Netherlands, well, that is taking it way too far to protect the worse of you, and it's a huge reason why anti-Western propaganda has such great soil to grow from in Europe.
Not to mention Israel, their greatest ally with their "most moral Army in the world" bullshit while they bomb the fuck out of civilians and protect obvious war criminals sniping children or raping prisoners with knives while their colleagues cover the cameras.
All of this shit erodes the little humanity that was introduced to war, and while in the end the blame for attacking civilians lies with those units, commanders and individuals, this era of might makes right certainty doesn't help.
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On July 27 2026 22:27 Jankisa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unfortunately, war crimes are par for the course in any, well, war.
Issues with fucked up units, commanders, individual soldiers doing fucked up crimes against civilian populations or prisoners of war will inevitably happen, the longer the war goes on more trauma these people accrue, and more likely it is that they will lash out at people who don't deserve it. What can be done is for this shit to be prosecuted, but even this is a very complicated line to walk, if you go after people for "borderline" cases you risk alienating their comrades, you risk a mutiny from the people you need most. + Show Spoiler +It's a very fine line to walk, some countries do it better then other, USA, with the reactions to things like "collateral murder" video and making a law that if an American is ever arrested by IOC USA would invade Netherlands, well, that is taking it way too far to protect the worse of you, and it's a huge reason why anti-Western propaganda has such great soil to grow from in Europe.
Not to mention Israel, their greatest ally with their "most moral Army in the world" bullshit while they bomb the fuck out of civilians and protect obvious war criminals sniping children or raping prisoners with knives while their colleagues cover the cameras.
All of this shit erodes the little humanity that was introduced to war, and while in the end the blame for attacking civilians lies with those units, commanders and individuals, this era of might makes right certainty doesn't help.
I was really hoping I'd find the Ukrainians that we saw early on committing war crimes on Russian POWs would have been effectively prosecuted, but best I can tell Ukraine used Israel's favorite trick and just announced investigations and nothing came of them.
The reality is there is no international law or war "crimes" anymore, there's just the things we'll tolerate as a society and the things we won't.
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There are laws and prosecutions, but those are mostly for poor countries.
The Balkan wars have been thoroughly prosecuted and in case of Croatia helped purge some of our history from these shitty people, Milošević died in the Hague, so did many other Serbian (and Croatian and Bosniak) war criminals, to a country like mine that's a big deal.
These things don't usually happen until after the war, and I'm sure that if Ukraine ever wants to join the EU, as it was with us, this will be one of the per-requisites.
Again, this is not something that gets done during a war of survival, so even opening an investigation on the side of Ukraine is something to encourage, it both leaves a paper trail for later, real prosecutions and it shows them in contrast to Russia.
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On July 27 2026 22:57 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2026 22:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 27 2026 22:27 Jankisa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Unfortunately, war crimes are par for the course in any, well, war.
Issues with fucked up units, commanders, individual soldiers doing fucked up crimes against civilian populations or prisoners of war will inevitably happen, the longer the war goes on more trauma these people accrue, and more likely it is that they will lash out at people who don't deserve it. What can be done is for this shit to be prosecuted, but even this is a very complicated line to walk, if you go after people for "borderline" cases you risk alienating their comrades, you risk a mutiny from the people you need most. + Show Spoiler +It's a very fine line to walk, some countries do it better then other, USA, with the reactions to things like "collateral murder" video and making a law that if an American is ever arrested by IOC USA would invade Netherlands, well, that is taking it way too far to protect the worse of you, and it's a huge reason why anti-Western propaganda has such great soil to grow from in Europe.
Not to mention Israel, their greatest ally with their "most moral Army in the world" bullshit while they bomb the fuck out of civilians and protect obvious war criminals sniping children or raping prisoners with knives while their colleagues cover the cameras.
All of this shit erodes the little humanity that was introduced to war, and while in the end the blame for attacking civilians lies with those units, commanders and individuals, this era of might makes right certainty doesn't help. I was really hoping I'd find the Ukrainians that we saw early on committing war crimes on Russian POWs would have been effectively prosecuted, but best I can tell Ukraine used Israel's favorite trick and just announced investigations and nothing came of them. The reality is there is no international law or war "crimes" anymore, there's just the things we'll tolerate as a society and the things we won't. There are laws and prosecutions, but those are mostly for poor countries. + Show Spoiler +
The Balkan wars have been thoroughly prosecuted and in case of Croatia helped purge some of our history from these shitty people, Milošević died in the Hague, so did many other Serbian (and Croatian and Bosniak) war criminals, to a country like mine that's a big deal.
These things don't usually happen until after the war, and I'm sure that if Ukraine ever wants to join the EU, as it was with us, this will be one of the per-requisites.
Again, this is not something that gets done during a war of survival, so even opening an investigation on the side of Ukraine is something to encourage, it both leaves a paper trail for later, real prosecutions and it shows them in contrast to Russia.
That's ultimately not a meaningful application of the concept of the "rule of law"
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This sucks and I won't defend targeting civilians. But as long as there is one side who can just go home and has comitted thousands of cases like this already, it's difficult to have sympathy
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The point of war crimes was to get everyone to agree to fight a certain “more humane” way. The problem is when one side completely ignores these rules it is pretty hard for the other side to completely follow them in every way.
Ukraine is doing a WAY way way better job than their adversary at following these rules. Any talk of Ukrainian war crimes when they are committing so many less, and do not have leadership encouraging it or making a part of the policy, is basically Russian propaganda.
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I’m confused by the handwaving I’m seeing here. GH is right. Intentionally killing civilians is bad no matter who does it. If the difference between Ukraine doing it and Israel is the context and severity, then ultimately you’re just saying you’re fine with a certain level of civilian-killing retribution given the right context. Which is fine, I guess, you do you, it’s just kinda’ fucked up and goes against established international law.
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On July 27 2026 18:28 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2026 03:39 2Pacalypse- wrote:On July 26 2026 18:21 Simberto wrote:On July 26 2026 10:13 Falling wrote:Waging economic warfare by bombing industrial production and commercial distribution centres to push out an invading army that targets civilians (human safari in Kherson), residential buildings, clearly marked red-cross vehicles, and tortures prisoners is well within the bounds of an ethically run war. Russia still has many more young men to feed into the meat grinder, so to save lives (including Russian) it's better to grind their economy to a halt any way they can-- like targetting the shadow fleet. It may be difficult to be optimistic about the future but the way Ukraine has run their war has been inspiring. I am reminded of a video of a surrendered Russian soldier who asks: "Will you take us prisoner or kill us?" Ukrainian soldier: "Prisoner. We are not you." Just so. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1uhbmin/russian_soldier_asked_ukrainian_soldier_will_you/ I think part of this is that Ukraine is very dependent on outside support. If you start committing war crimes, people in other countries start to ask if they really should continue supporting you. Meanwhile, if you act like the good guys, other countries can feel good sending you military equipment. From the Ukrainian perspective, war crimes and targetting civilians would be a strategically really bad idea. And i assume leadership knows that, and are on top of not getting bad press. Yeah, which is why it's a really bad timing that Ukraine started committing war crimes themselves it seems: https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2080084259134406875You could say one video might be a fluke or a false flag operation, but seems like there are multiple videos that Ukranians posted themselves where they slam drones into civilian cars at gas stations, mostly in Belgorod region. It's such an unforced error too, because now you're just giving munition with no real rebuttals to the other side, which is something they more or less didn't have for the past 5 years. I'm not saying it's great, but I'd argue that gas stations are legitimate targets, and it's a shame if there happen to be civilians there when you hit it
I am not sure about that. As far as I understand it, there are civilian targets which are never ok to be deliberately targeted, dual use targets which are both used in a civilian as well as military capacity (like a power plant that both supplies a military base, weapons factory etc. and civilian housing) which are bit more difficult to assess, and purely military targets. Both military and dual use targets are usually fair game, but with both you always have to consider collateral damage. Blowing up a gas station in the middle of the day with a bunch of civilians queued up and no military vehicles in sight when you could just as well have done that in the night is... problematic at best I would say. Considering if "there happen to be civilians there when you hit it" is part of what you have to consider and if you don't, or what you accept as acceptable collateral is wildly disproportional, then you are entering war crime territory.
I am not surprised but still disappointed to see such poor defences here. War crimes are not ok because the other side does it more, and it also shouldn't be a question of sympathy. I am especially disappointed because the actual response is right there: The difference between russia doing war crimes and ukraine doing them, apart from the scale ofc, is the fact that this is most likely not something ordered from high up. It will be down to individuals being responsible for this, but their actions will be clearly separable from the actions of ukraine and their military as a whole.
With russiait is different. Sure they also have some individual level war crimes, but also war crimes like the attacks on population centres, which are not some pilots deciding to fuck up this housing block. Its some pilots doing exactly what was ordered. Their war crimes are inseparable from the russian army and state as a whole. That is why they would be a valid reason to question support for russia as a whole, while the ukrainian ones are not. If that were to change, then yeah, I would start to question my support for them. But this is not that, but the kind of responses we see here are the kind of stuff that deprives support of all its morality and just turns it into "rooting for your team".
On July 27 2026 23:06 Billyboy wrote:
Ukraine is doing a WAY way way better job than their adversary at following these rules. Any talk of Ukrainian war crimes when they are committing so many less, and do not have leadership encouraging it or making a part of the policy, is basically Russian propaganda.
Labelling anything uncomfortable as russian propaganda is quite weak. The reason why people react stronger to this is because ukraine is considered the good guy, so they are expected to do good guy things. Its naive, but perfectly understandable. We have higher expectations of them. There are a bunch of countries financing terrorism, but that is to be expected of them, so I don't get upset about it when it comes out. Meanwhile if it came out my country is doing that, I would be very unhappy about it.
Having higher standards and expectations for "your" side is good, and the people that are talking about it in here are all clear ukraine supporters apart from the troll larping as a leftist. Unless ofc your support had never anything to do with them being on the correct side.
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On July 28 2026 00:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m confused by the handwaving I’m seeing here. GH is right. Intentionally killing civilians is bad no matter who does it. If the difference between Ukraine doing it and Israel is the context and severity, then ultimately you’re just saying you’re fine with a certain level of civilian-killing retribution given the right context. Which is fine, I guess, you do you, it’s just kinda’ fucked up and goes against established international law.
I’m not saying it’s not bad, it’s just that it is going to happen to some degree in every war. Talking about the side that is doing it .00001 times as much as the other side seems disingenuous.
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On July 28 2026 00:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m confused by the handwaving I’m seeing here. GH is right. Intentionally killing civilians is bad no matter who does it. If the difference between Ukraine doing it and Israel is the context and severity, then ultimately you’re just saying you’re fine with a certain level of civilian-killing retribution given the right context. Which is fine, I guess, you do you, it’s just kinda’ fucked up and goes against established international law.
I mean yeah obviously war crimes are bad, that's kinda the point. Hard focusing on Ukrainian war crimes is just sort of self defeating, because the other side is committing so much more crimes and we're not really doing much about that are we? I don't think you can expect Ukraine to fight like perfect angels in their war of survival and things like this will happen in war sadly.
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On July 28 2026 00:27 Ryzel wrote:I’m confused by the handwaving I’m seeing here. GH is right. + Show Spoiler + Intentionally killing civilians is bad no matter who does it. If the difference between Ukraine doing it and Israel is the context and severity, then ultimately you’re just saying you’re fine with a certain level of civilian-killing retribution given the right context. Which is fine, I guess, you do you, it’s just kinda’ fucked up and goes against established international law.
Ah, my sweet summer child. I forgive you, for you know not what you do. The only solace I can provide is that it is definitely a them thing, not a you thing. Don't get Milgram and Asched!
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On July 28 2026 00:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m confused by the handwaving I’m seeing here. GH is right. Intentionally killing civilians is bad no matter who does it. If the difference between Ukraine doing it and Israel is the context and severity, then ultimately you’re just saying you’re fine with a certain level of civilian-killing retribution given the right context. Which is fine, I guess, you do you, it’s just kinda’ fucked up and goes against established international law.
No one here hand waived killing civilians and everyone agreed these should be prosecuted. Mentioning the ratio, intent and difference in how each side deals with these is not hand waiving.
On the other hand, GH descends on this thread mostly whenever something that can paint Ukraine in bad light comes up, or to shed his own bad light on them with his calls for Ukraine to give up parts of their country or to suggest how they brought this on themselves by flirting with the west, so you know, glass houses.
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"I think of Coventry and have nothing to object."
-Thomas Mann commenting the bombing of his hometown of Lübeck during WW2.
As mentioned there's a clear aggressor here that committed and keeps committing an estimated shitton of war crimes and could end this war anytime they please.
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On July 27 2026 03:39 2Pacalypse- wrote:
You could say one video might be a fluke or a false flag operation, but seems like there are multiple videos that Ukranians posted themselves where they slam drones into civilian cars at gas stations, mostly in Belgorod region.
It's such an unforced error too, because now you're just giving munition with no real rebuttals to the other side, which is something they more or less didn't have for the past 5 years.
For this to be an error, it would first have to be an escalation.
We know that Ukraine lost 100+ gas stations to Russian strikes over the last few months.
It's all part of the retaliation cycle after blowing up Russian refineries.
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EPT
