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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On June 04 2025 06:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 04:18 KwarK wrote:
Throughout the war Russia have been extremely vocal about what their intentions are re: the Baltics, Poland, Moldova etc. while a bunch of Tankies insist that Russia would never do what they’ve done a dozen times before and say they’re definitely going to do again. Could you quote/cite some of the "bunch of Tankies" doing this? Yes, relatively easily.
But you did this instead. Cute.
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He is kind of right. The standard tankie behaviour isn't focused on defending their Kremlin idols but on attacking the evil West. They rarely say stuff like "Russia would never do that". Tankies love to ask "but what about America doing X?" instead. They prefer to ignore Russian or red wrongdoings and at best you can get them to say something along the lines of "yeah but it wasn't real communism anyway, why are you asking me defend Russia? I'm just a sane neutral voice here".
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They also love to deny China genociding a whole culture and pretending Maduro is a democratically elected official loved by all. Everything bad you read about anyone who considers themselves a socialist or communist is just capitalist propaganda btw.
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United States43868 Posts
On June 04 2025 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 06:24 KwarK wrote:On June 04 2025 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 04:18 KwarK wrote:
Throughout the war Russia have been extremely vocal about what their intentions are re: the Baltics, Poland, Moldova etc. while a bunch of Tankies insist that Russia would never do what they’ve done a dozen times before and say they’re definitely going to do again. Could you quote/cite some of the "bunch of Tankies" doing this? Yes, relatively easily. But you did this instead. Cute.
Tankies defend Russia almost by definition. That's literally what they do. A request that I go prove to you that tankies defend Russian imperialism is not a request made in good faith.
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On June 04 2025 07:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 06:24 KwarK wrote:On June 04 2025 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 04:18 KwarK wrote:
Throughout the war Russia have been extremely vocal about what their intentions are re: the Baltics, Poland, Moldova etc. while a bunch of Tankies insist that Russia would never do what they’ve done a dozen times before and say they’re definitely going to do again. Could you quote/cite some of the "bunch of Tankies" doing this? Yes, relatively easily. But you did this instead. Cute. Tankies defend Russia almost by definition. That's literally what they do. A request that I go prove to you that tankies defend Russian imperialism is not a request made in good faith.
"Tankies defend Russia" is different/more vague than " a bunch of Tankies insist that Russia would never do what they’ve done a dozen times before and say they’re definitely going to do again."
I was wondering if you *would share examples with us here* of your original assertion that I inquired about or were just here venting/tilting at windmills. Seems to be the latter.
*Edited for clarity*
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United States43868 Posts
On June 04 2025 10:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 07:14 KwarK wrote:On June 04 2025 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 06:24 KwarK wrote:On June 04 2025 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 04:18 KwarK wrote:
Throughout the war Russia have been extremely vocal about what their intentions are re: the Baltics, Poland, Moldova etc. while a bunch of Tankies insist that Russia would never do what they’ve done a dozen times before and say they’re definitely going to do again. Could you quote/cite some of the "bunch of Tankies" doing this? Yes, relatively easily. But you did this instead. Cute. Tankies defend Russia almost by definition. That's literally what they do. A request that I go prove to you that tankies defend Russian imperialism is not a request made in good faith. "Tankies defend Russia" is different/more vague than " a bunch of Tankies insist that Russia would never do what they’ve done a dozen times before and say they’re definitely going to do again." I was wondering if you had examples of your original assertion that I inquired about or were just here venting/tilting at windmills.
And I replied that I did, so what’s your problem?
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
It’s something I frequently encounter, although often in comment threads almost unrelated to the general topic of a subreddit
Just something I encounter on the semi-regular and don’t sit around logging for the purposes of showing it’s a thing. A lot more niche and uncommon than some worldviews, but frequently enough that it’s not like, 50 really dedicated spammers.
Also a rare group that I just could not be fucking arsed engaging with in any capacity. Idk if it’s ostensibly being on the same political wing with ostensibly similar values that elevates the irritation, or something else but unlike your man in Tiananmen Square I studiously avoid tankies at all costs.
I’d rather be Clarice Starling interviewing oBlade’s Hannibal Lecter for the rest of my days than engage with tankies.
Yes it’s very much a ‘Source - trust me bro’ but come on. They’re way, way more prevalent in the more leftist areas I occasionally inhabit than in ‘gen pop’ as it were, and I assume you are more active in further left communities than I.
It really stretches credulity that you haven’t at least had some contact with the archetypal tankie, or at least their off-shoot the ‘because US Imperialism was bad, Russian Imperialism is fine’, or their cousin the ‘it’s not really happening as described, it’s all Western propaganda.’
If you have not, you’re living the dream of many on the left who would have quite happily done without such encounters.
Like it’s a hell of a double punch lecturing people about not holding their own to account, while yourself claiming ignorance over tankies like, existing and what some of that (admittedly crude categorisation) crowd think of this conflict.
If I’m misreading you here like, apologies but I don’t know how else to read these exchanges.
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On June 04 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It’s something I frequently encounter, although often in comment threads almost unrelated to the general topic of a subreddit
Just something I encounter on the semi-regular and don’t sit around logging for the purposes of showing it’s a thing. A lot more niche and uncommon than some worldviews, but frequently enough that it’s not like, 50 really dedicated spammers.
Also a rare group that I just could not be fucking arsed engaging with in any capacity. Idk if it’s ostensibly being on the same political wing with ostensibly similar values that elevates the irritation, or something else but unlike your man in Tiananmen Square I studiously avoid tankies at all costs.
I’d rather be Clarice Starling interviewing oBlade’s Hannibal Lecter for the rest of my days than engage with tankies. Yes it’s very much a ‘Source - trust me bro’ but come on. They’re way, way more prevalent in the more leftist areas I occasionally inhabit than in ‘gen pop’ as it were, and I assume you are more active in further left communities than I. It really stretches credulity that you haven’t at least had some contact with the archetypal tankie, or at least their off-shoot the ‘because US Imperialism was bad, Russian Imperialism is fine’, or their cousin the ‘it’s not really happening as described, it’s all Western propaganda.’ + Show Spoiler +If you have not, you’re living the dream of many on the left who would have quite happily done without such encounters.
Like it’s a hell of a double punch lecturing people about not holding their own to account, while yourself claiming ignorance over tankies like, existing and what some of that (admittedly crude categorisation) crowd think of this conflict. If I’m misreading you here like, apologies but I don’t know how else to read these exchanges.
Well you have to keep in mind I've repeatedly been called a "tankie" here, while you also say that you're telling me you studiously avoid tankies. Surely you see an issue or few there?
Clearly there's a classification issue and I'm skeptical of people's recall/description of what the alleged "tankies" are saying. It's astonishing how many people still think the guy in the Tiananmen Square tank photo got ran over by the tank after the photo for example.
If a bunch of tankies are doing something to the point it's a ubiquitous experience for several posters here, then showing some specific examples should be easier than whatever several posters have done instead.
Who are the relatively prominent tankies saying this? Hell, who are some relatively prominent tankies generally?
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Tankie has become a more broad pejorative for people who like imperialism so long as it is "Communist" countries doing it. No this is not how you would probably use the word, GH, but it's how a lot of people do.
The #8 streamer on Twitch satisfies this colloquial definition of "Tankie", so there's your evidence, but no, very few "true tankies" by your definition will be out there being encountered on the regular.
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Zurich15365 Posts
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On June 04 2025 14:42 Turbovolver wrote:
Tankie has become a more broad pejorative for people who like imperialism so long as it is "Communist" countries doing it. No this is not how you would probably use the word, GH, but it's how a lot of people do.
The #8 streamer on Twitch satisfies this colloquial definition of "Tankie", so there's your evidence, but no, very few "true tankies" by your definition will be out there being encountered on the regular.
On June 04 2025 14:47 zatic wrote:If you want a neat collection (Twitter only) for entertainment purposes https://x.com/tankiemilk
I mean, this is what I'm talking about.
Jackson Hinkle is a dickbag, but also considers Hasan (who I presume Turbo is referring to), a lib basically.
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On June 04 2025 14:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It’s something I frequently encounter, although often in comment threads almost unrelated to the general topic of a subreddit
Just something I encounter on the semi-regular and don’t sit around logging for the purposes of showing it’s a thing. A lot more niche and uncommon than some worldviews, but frequently enough that it’s not like, 50 really dedicated spammers.
Also a rare group that I just could not be fucking arsed engaging with in any capacity. Idk if it’s ostensibly being on the same political wing with ostensibly similar values that elevates the irritation, or something else but unlike your man in Tiananmen Square I studiously avoid tankies at all costs.
I’d rather be Clarice Starling interviewing oBlade’s Hannibal Lecter for the rest of my days than engage with tankies. Yes it’s very much a ‘Source - trust me bro’ but come on. They’re way, way more prevalent in the more leftist areas I occasionally inhabit than in ‘gen pop’ as it were, and I assume you are more active in further left communities than I. It really stretches credulity that you haven’t at least had some contact with the archetypal tankie, or at least their off-shoot the ‘because US Imperialism was bad, Russian Imperialism is fine’, or their cousin the ‘it’s not really happening as described, it’s all Western propaganda.’ + Show Spoiler +If you have not, you’re living the dream of many on the left who would have quite happily done without such encounters.
Like it’s a hell of a double punch lecturing people about not holding their own to account, while yourself claiming ignorance over tankies like, existing and what some of that (admittedly crude categorisation) crowd think of this conflict. If I’m misreading you here like, apologies but I don’t know how else to read these exchanges. Well you have to keep in mind I've repeatedly been called a "tankie" here, while you also say that you're telling me you studiously avoid tankies. Surely you see an issue or few there? Clearly there's a classification issue and I'm skeptical of people's recall/description of what the alleged "tankies" are saying. It's astonishing how many people still think the guy in the Tiananmen Square tank photo got ran over by the tank after the photo for example. If a bunch of tankies are doing something to the point it's a ubiquitous experience for several posters here, then showing some specific examples should be easier than whatever several posters have done instead. Who are the relatively prominent tankies saying this? Hell, who are some relatively prominent tankies generally?
Between 400 and 800 people were killed outside of the Tiananmen square after they left. Why are you withholding that information? The tank parade is nothing more than a symbol of that massacre, it's not misleading information at all. It perfectly encapsulates what happened that day (and on other days) due to the extreme violence committed against protesters.
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On April 25 2025 19:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2025 16:06 Godwrath wrote:On April 25 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 18:29 Godwrath wrote:On April 24 2025 09:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 08:57 Falling wrote:On April 24 2025 07:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 07:09 Falling wrote:
Unless security guarantees/ NATO membership was a part of the package, I don't see in what world this can be seen as the 'lesser evil'. All this would be deferred evil, giving Russia a chance to consolidate their holdings, reconstitute their army, and stage into their conquered territories and finish the job in four or five years. They came back for Chechnya. Crimea was not enough to sate the Russian appetite but was simply used to stage into Ukraine at a later date. Why would this be any different? Europe has a way better chance of turning another Russian invasion of Ukraine in ~4-5 years into a better deal for Ukraine and Europe. Especially after also using that time to far outpace Russia's positional improvements to a degree they aren't dependent on the US, for their own, and Ukraine's benefit. "Deferring evil" is the lesser evil (typically is) than the current/immediate death and suffering deferring evil avoids. "Deferring evil" also provides the opportunity to avoid "the evil" in the future, by at least buying you time to change what happens several years down the road. Deferring evil is enough to make it the lesser evil to not deferring evil on its own, but also, there's a realpolitik rationale for it being Europe's best option (though arguably not Ukraine's if one is on the most optimistic side of the spectrum for Ukraine's current situation militarily speaking). Is it buying you time? Yes, it's literally buying the Ukrainians that will instead be dying today, tomorrow, and indefinitely until there is some sort of peace (however it comes about) their lives and millions more the end of constant bombardment under war and all the horrible things that come with that. It buys them years of negative peace by your own estimate. How many is less certain, but we all see how/why it's in Russia's interest to find a deal themselves now, as well as potentially violating that deal at a later point. That only assumes you'll be in a better position next time. + Show Spoiler +Whereas, we are as close as we've ever been to exhausting Russia's material. Would a push from a coalition of the willing tip the balance?
Western democracies are as close as they've been in a long while to rearming. Four to five years from now? If there is one consistency it has to be that democracies (except the USA) don't like to spend money on the military during peacetime whereas tyranny prioritize it always.
That's four to five years for all of us to draw down while Iran North Korea Russia and maybe China on the sly? ramp up, adapt to what they learn and come back stronger.
Russia isn't on its back foot yet but it can be made to be. A few years from now, I'm not sure.
Remember, Russia didn't do so hot in the first war in Chechnya but they aren't dumb and the second time it was lights out.
You are also making the biggest case for more land war and nuclear rearmament. He that is strong let him take it will signal to every country with dreams of empires. And he that has no nukes, let him surrender. The nuclear arms race begun again. We could speculate about what the situation might be years from now + Show Spoiler +(like who will be president of the US, whether the US will be in NATO, and whether it matters if Europe wants to give Ukraine a security guarantee of their own without the US) , but the fact of the matter is that accepting/formalizing a deal now saves lives immediately and dramatically improves the quality of life for millions of Ukrainians for years. Rejecting the deal means those years would instead be filled with their continued deaths and suffering. Arguing them rejecting the deal is the "lesser evil" is the position that requires a bunch of assumptions about western democracies choosing to use the time under negative peace to be wilfully neglectful and end up in a worse position in the future. This is so hypocritical I genuinely don’t even know where to begin. If Ukrainians want to fight for their freedom, I’m absolutely in favor of supporting them. I’m not going to be the condescending asshole who shrugs and says “yeah, it’s a shitty situation, maybe we’ll help... eventually.” + Show Spoiler +You’re supposed to know better. But in your crusade against Western society, you’ve completely lost the plot on this one.
Say it with me: Putin is a fascist, imperialist asshole.
And no — the enemy of my enemy isn’t automatically my friend.
But the people suffering under the boot of a fascist imperialist?
Yeah, they are. You guys are so goddamn close to getting it. You gotta at least see how close that is to being taken verbatim from MLK Jr.'s "white moderate", and/or the contradiction regarding Palestinians. Maybe it really is as simple as me not saying "Putin does horrible things" enough. Oh i don't get it. Explain it to me. Let's see how you contort yourself pretending you are not the "white moderate" in this thread. Also, do it, but don't take for granted my posture regarding Palestinians, which if you are able to read behind lines, it's very obvious. Here, everyone's a revolutionary. Doesn't matter that their democratically elected leader was violently removed. Doesn't matter it's been over a decade of their lives being objectively worse. Doesn't matter that Ukraine's " democracy score" is lower now than it was before their revolution. Doesn't matter that even after all this, failure is still quite likely, with the potential of reprisals and decades of it being worse than before their revolution. It's just not socialist. That's the only objection everyone has to socialist revolution + Show Spoiler +1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse. that Ukraine has remotely satisfied. We've got an extremely bloody/violent revolution (spearheaded by their far-right) that's made Ukrainians lives worse for over a decade without a clear way out or any certainty the end won't be worse than what started it. Yet basically everyone here and generally in NA (save Republicans) is steadfastly committed to it. So much so, I'm pretty sure I've seen people here say they'd basically be willing to be sent as soldiers and Canada's Parliament mistakenly gave a literal Waffen-SS Nazi a standing ovation while calling him a hero + Show Spoiler +(I don't think Ukraine is all Nazis or that Putin cares about "denazifying" Ukraine btw.) . It's been bizarre af to witness.
Oh, look, a bunch of nicely chained tankie talking points, neatly packaged.
We have all the highlights, straight from Kremlin cookbook:
- Ukrainians are far right nazis
- this all started by bloody/violent revolution / coup
- Canada is also Nazi (just like Ukraine) and they hosted a Nazi guy
- Ukraine is extremely corrupt
- Ukraine is worse off then before the Maidan
- Ukraine should stop fighting and accept whatever Russians want
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On June 04 2025 18:32 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2025 19:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 25 2025 16:06 Godwrath wrote:On April 25 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 18:29 Godwrath wrote:On April 24 2025 09:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 08:57 Falling wrote:On April 24 2025 07:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 07:09 Falling wrote:
Unless security guarantees/ NATO membership was a part of the package, I don't see in what world this can be seen as the 'lesser evil'. All this would be deferred evil, giving Russia a chance to consolidate their holdings, reconstitute their army, and stage into their conquered territories and finish the job in four or five years. They came back for Chechnya. Crimea was not enough to sate the Russian appetite but was simply used to stage into Ukraine at a later date. Why would this be any different? Europe has a way better chance of turning another Russian invasion of Ukraine in ~4-5 years into a better deal for Ukraine and Europe. Especially after also using that time to far outpace Russia's positional improvements to a degree they aren't dependent on the US, for their own, and Ukraine's benefit. "Deferring evil" is the lesser evil (typically is) than the current/immediate death and suffering deferring evil avoids. "Deferring evil" also provides the opportunity to avoid "the evil" in the future, by at least buying you time to change what happens several years down the road. Deferring evil is enough to make it the lesser evil to not deferring evil on its own, but also, there's a realpolitik rationale for it being Europe's best option (though arguably not Ukraine's if one is on the most optimistic side of the spectrum for Ukraine's current situation militarily speaking). Is it buying you time? Yes, it's literally buying the Ukrainians that will instead be dying today, tomorrow, and indefinitely until there is some sort of peace (however it comes about) their lives and millions more the end of constant bombardment under war and all the horrible things that come with that. It buys them years of negative peace by your own estimate. How many is less certain, but we all see how/why it's in Russia's interest to find a deal themselves now, as well as potentially violating that deal at a later point. That only assumes you'll be in a better position next time. + Show Spoiler +Whereas, we are as close as we've ever been to exhausting Russia's material. Would a push from a coalition of the willing tip the balance?
Western democracies are as close as they've been in a long while to rearming. Four to five years from now? If there is one consistency it has to be that democracies (except the USA) don't like to spend money on the military during peacetime whereas tyranny prioritize it always.
That's four to five years for all of us to draw down while Iran North Korea Russia and maybe China on the sly? ramp up, adapt to what they learn and come back stronger.
Russia isn't on its back foot yet but it can be made to be. A few years from now, I'm not sure.
Remember, Russia didn't do so hot in the first war in Chechnya but they aren't dumb and the second time it was lights out.
You are also making the biggest case for more land war and nuclear rearmament. He that is strong let him take it will signal to every country with dreams of empires. And he that has no nukes, let him surrender. The nuclear arms race begun again. We could speculate about what the situation might be years from now + Show Spoiler +(like who will be president of the US, whether the US will be in NATO, and whether it matters if Europe wants to give Ukraine a security guarantee of their own without the US) , but the fact of the matter is that accepting/formalizing a deal now saves lives immediately and dramatically improves the quality of life for millions of Ukrainians for years. Rejecting the deal means those years would instead be filled with their continued deaths and suffering. Arguing them rejecting the deal is the "lesser evil" is the position that requires a bunch of assumptions about western democracies choosing to use the time under negative peace to be wilfully neglectful and end up in a worse position in the future. This is so hypocritical I genuinely don’t even know where to begin. If Ukrainians want to fight for their freedom, I’m absolutely in favor of supporting them. I’m not going to be the condescending asshole who shrugs and says “yeah, it’s a shitty situation, maybe we’ll help... eventually.” + Show Spoiler +You’re supposed to know better. But in your crusade against Western society, you’ve completely lost the plot on this one.
Say it with me: Putin is a fascist, imperialist asshole.
And no — the enemy of my enemy isn’t automatically my friend.
But the people suffering under the boot of a fascist imperialist?
Yeah, they are. You guys are so goddamn close to getting it. You gotta at least see how close that is to being taken verbatim from MLK Jr.'s "white moderate", and/or the contradiction regarding Palestinians. Maybe it really is as simple as me not saying "Putin does horrible things" enough. Oh i don't get it. Explain it to me. Let's see how you contort yourself pretending you are not the "white moderate" in this thread. Also, do it, but don't take for granted my posture regarding Palestinians, which if you are able to read behind lines, it's very obvious. Here, everyone's a revolutionary. Doesn't matter that their democratically elected leader was violently removed. Doesn't matter it's been over a decade of their lives being objectively worse. Doesn't matter that Ukraine's " democracy score" is lower now than it was before their revolution. Doesn't matter that even after all this, failure is still quite likely, with the potential of reprisals and decades of it being worse than before their revolution. It's just not socialist. That's the only objection everyone has to socialist revolution + Show Spoiler +1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse. that Ukraine has remotely satisfied. We've got an extremely bloody/violent revolution (spearheaded by their far-right) that's made Ukrainians lives worse for over a decade without a clear way out or any certainty the end won't be worse than what started it. Yet basically everyone here and generally in NA (save Republicans) is steadfastly committed to it. So much so, I'm pretty sure I've seen people here say they'd basically be willing to be sent as soldiers and Canada's Parliament mistakenly gave a literal Waffen-SS Nazi a standing ovation while calling him a hero + Show Spoiler +(I don't think Ukraine is all Nazis or that Putin cares about "denazifying" Ukraine btw.) . It's been bizarre af to witness. Oh, look, a bunch of nicely chained tankie talking points, neatly packaged. We have all the highlights, straight from Kremlin cookbook: - Ukrainians are far right nazis - this all started by bloody/violent revolution / coup - Canada is also Nazi (just like Ukraine) and they hosted a Nazi guy - Ukraine is extremely corrupt - Ukraine is worse off then before the Maidan - Ukraine should stop fighting and accept whatever Russians want
yeah... not great GH. a country at war will inevitably turn more authoritarian - you cannot have democracy DURING a war. it is an impossibility. also them being "worse off"... it is war man. the most costly endeavor where everyone in the end is worse off. even if Russia "wins" let's say, in an hour... just for shits and giggles - it would not have been worth it, not even by a long shot.
their economy is a command war economy now held up by an authoritarian kleptocratic class that robs the common people by selling - ultimately - public natural resources.
and people know it, so they keep their head down AND steal back - if they are in a position to do so. case in point - the Russian military which on paper looked pretty decent... then reality hit and they tried a special operation (for which ordinary people went to jail for a long long time after they called it war btw... - not even agitating just calling it war in public...) which turned into the Russian military is not so special and war not their strong suit after over 3 years.
and they are in too deep now to turn back on a whim from that war economy. their demographic outlook is in tatters which is horrible news for the future of the country.
Russia is now in the hands of China when it comes to anything more complicated than a calculator... just about EVERY high tech sector is decades behind. the student has become the master if you will.
the more interesting question people should ask is - why did they get rid of Yanukovych and why that whole "Maidan" thing? and crucially - where is the country that invaded Ukraine on your "top democracies" list? is there good reason they want to turn west rather than to the east?
also my goodness I still cannot fathom how they pulled off spiderweb. hats off to them. movies/books/tv shows/CoD missions will be inspired by it. remarkable stuff really, showing how special operations are done.
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Ukrainians are inspiring motherfuckers, I have a feeling when this is all said and done they'll be like Mandalorians, sending military instructors and spies to train armies and saboteurs all across the globe, I hope they find a good way to monetize all this know how and use the money to rebuild what the senseless Russian destruction did, they as a people and a country deserve it.
Right from the get-go, demolishing the armored column, stopping the Hostomel airport takeover, doing insane gains around Kharkiv and Kherson, sinking Moskva, these are some tough and inventive people.
I mean, credit where it's due, Russians had their own share of smart tactics and moves, the crawling through the pipeline to get behind Ukrainians in Kursk was fiendish and very smart, the FPV drones with optic cables were also very smart and a crafty invention.
If all of these people weren't dying for the ego of the fucking imperialist midget Putin this conflict would be a wonder to behold, unfortunately, every time one of these inventions works people die, so it's kind of hard to observe it without feeling depressed.
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historically it makes sense that they are highly capable - Pripyat was one of the scientist cities for the research of atomic energy in the former USSR. and a Chernobyl disaster is unfortunately a great motivator in either improving - rapidly - or perishing.
many of today's fighters/commanders are those scientist's descendants - or even younger and the generation after that...
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On June 04 2025 20:05 Jankisa wrote:
Ukrainians are inspiring motherfuckers, I have a feeling when this is all said and done they'll be like Mandalorians, sending military instructors and spies to train armies and saboteurs all across the globe, I hope they find a good way to monetize all this know how and use the money to rebuild what the senseless Russian destruction did, they as a people and a country deserve it.
Right from the get-go, demolishing the armored column, stopping the Hostomel airport takeover, doing insane gains around Kharkiv and Kherson, sinking Moskva, these are some tough and inventive people.
I mean, credit where it's due, Russians had their own share of smart tactics and moves, the crawling through the pipeline to get behind Ukrainians in Kursk was fiendish and very smart, the FPV drones with optic cables were also very smart and a crafty invention.
If all of these people weren't dying for the ego of the fucking imperialist midget Putin this conflict would be a wonder to behold, unfortunately, every time one of these inventions works people die, so it's kind of hard to observe it without feeling depressed.
Indeed. War is simultaneously humanity at its worst, while in ways showcases us at our best. Brass balls, bravey and ingenuity alongside the brutality and futility
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On June 04 2025 20:05 Jankisa wrote:
Ukrainians are inspiring motherfuckers, I have a feeling when this is all said and done they'll be like Mandalorians, sending military instructors and spies to train armies and saboteurs all across the globe, I hope they find a good way to monetize all this know how and use the money to rebuild what the senseless Russian destruction did, they as a people and a country deserve it.
Right from the get-go, demolishing the armored column, stopping the Hostomel airport takeover, doing insane gains around Kharkiv and Kherson, sinking Moskva, these are some tough and inventive people.
I mean, credit where it's due, Russians had their own share of smart tactics and moves, the crawling through the pipeline to get behind Ukrainians in Kursk was fiendish and very smart, the FPV drones with optic cables were also very smart and a crafty invention.
If all of these people weren't dying for the ego of the fucking imperialist midget Putin this conflict would be a wonder to behold, unfortunately, every time one of these inventions works people die, so it's kind of hard to observe it without feeling depressed. Basically no other nation, except Russia, has any actual real experience in a peer v peer conflict.
At best we have high tech western nations dunking on cold war equipped insurgents.
That real world experience is very valuable.
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Kinda warms my heart seeing Russian stuff explode
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On June 04 2025 18:32 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2025 19:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 25 2025 16:06 Godwrath wrote:On April 25 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 18:29 Godwrath wrote:On April 24 2025 09:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 08:57 Falling wrote:On April 24 2025 07:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2025 07:09 Falling wrote:
Unless security guarantees/ NATO membership was a part of the package, I don't see in what world this can be seen as the 'lesser evil'. All this would be deferred evil, giving Russia a chance to consolidate their holdings, reconstitute their army, and stage into their conquered territories and finish the job in four or five years. They came back for Chechnya. Crimea was not enough to sate the Russian appetite but was simply used to stage into Ukraine at a later date. Why would this be any different? Europe has a way better chance of turning another Russian invasion of Ukraine in ~4-5 years into a better deal for Ukraine and Europe. Especially after also using that time to far outpace Russia's positional improvements to a degree they aren't dependent on the US, for their own, and Ukraine's benefit. "Deferring evil" is the lesser evil (typically is) than the current/immediate death and suffering deferring evil avoids. "Deferring evil" also provides the opportunity to avoid "the evil" in the future, by at least buying you time to change what happens several years down the road. Deferring evil is enough to make it the lesser evil to not deferring evil on its own, but also, there's a realpolitik rationale for it being Europe's best option (though arguably not Ukraine's if one is on the most optimistic side of the spectrum for Ukraine's current situation militarily speaking). Is it buying you time? Yes, it's literally buying the Ukrainians that will instead be dying today, tomorrow, and indefinitely until there is some sort of peace (however it comes about) their lives and millions more the end of constant bombardment under war and all the horrible things that come with that. It buys them years of negative peace by your own estimate. How many is less certain, but we all see how/why it's in Russia's interest to find a deal themselves now, as well as potentially violating that deal at a later point. That only assumes you'll be in a better position next time. + Show Spoiler +Whereas, we are as close as we've ever been to exhausting Russia's material. Would a push from a coalition of the willing tip the balance?
Western democracies are as close as they've been in a long while to rearming. Four to five years from now? If there is one consistency it has to be that democracies (except the USA) don't like to spend money on the military during peacetime whereas tyranny prioritize it always.
That's four to five years for all of us to draw down while Iran North Korea Russia and maybe China on the sly? ramp up, adapt to what they learn and come back stronger.
Russia isn't on its back foot yet but it can be made to be. A few years from now, I'm not sure.
Remember, Russia didn't do so hot in the first war in Chechnya but they aren't dumb and the second time it was lights out.
You are also making the biggest case for more land war and nuclear rearmament. He that is strong let him take it will signal to every country with dreams of empires. And he that has no nukes, let him surrender. The nuclear arms race begun again. We could speculate about what the situation might be years from now + Show Spoiler +(like who will be president of the US, whether the US will be in NATO, and whether it matters if Europe wants to give Ukraine a security guarantee of their own without the US) , but the fact of the matter is that accepting/formalizing a deal now saves lives immediately and dramatically improves the quality of life for millions of Ukrainians for years. Rejecting the deal means those years would instead be filled with their continued deaths and suffering. Arguing them rejecting the deal is the "lesser evil" is the position that requires a bunch of assumptions about western democracies choosing to use the time under negative peace to be wilfully neglectful and end up in a worse position in the future. This is so hypocritical I genuinely don’t even know where to begin. If Ukrainians want to fight for their freedom, I’m absolutely in favor of supporting them. I’m not going to be the condescending asshole who shrugs and says “yeah, it’s a shitty situation, maybe we’ll help... eventually.” + Show Spoiler +You’re supposed to know better. But in your crusade against Western society, you’ve completely lost the plot on this one.
Say it with me: Putin is a fascist, imperialist asshole.
And no — the enemy of my enemy isn’t automatically my friend.
But the people suffering under the boot of a fascist imperialist?
Yeah, they are. You guys are so goddamn close to getting it. You gotta at least see how close that is to being taken verbatim from MLK Jr.'s "white moderate", and/or the contradiction regarding Palestinians. Maybe it really is as simple as me not saying "Putin does horrible things" enough. Oh i don't get it. Explain it to me. Let's see how you contort yourself pretending you are not the "white moderate" in this thread. Also, do it, but don't take for granted my posture regarding Palestinians, which if you are able to read behind lines, it's very obvious. Here, everyone's a revolutionary. Doesn't matter that their democratically elected leader was violently removed. Doesn't matter it's been over a decade of their lives being objectively worse. Doesn't matter that Ukraine's " democracy score" is lower now than it was before their revolution. Doesn't matter that even after all this, failure is still quite likely, with the potential of reprisals and decades of it being worse than before their revolution. It's just not socialist. That's the only objection everyone has to socialist revolution + Show Spoiler +1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse. that Ukraine has remotely satisfied. We've got an extremely bloody/violent revolution (spearheaded by their far-right) that's made Ukrainians lives worse for over a decade without a clear way out or any certainty the end won't be worse than what started it. Yet basically everyone here and generally in NA (save Republicans) is steadfastly committed to it. So much so, I'm pretty sure I've seen people here say they'd basically be willing to be sent as soldiers and Canada's Parliament mistakenly gave a literal Waffen-SS Nazi a standing ovation while calling him a hero + Show Spoiler +(I don't think Ukraine is all Nazis or that Putin cares about "denazifying" Ukraine btw.) . It's been bizarre af to witness. Oh, look, a bunch of nicely chained tankie talking points, neatly packaged. We have all the highlights, straight from Kremlin cookbook: - Ukrainians are far right nazis - this all started by bloody/violent revolution / coup - Canada is also Nazi (just like Ukraine) and they hosted a Nazi guy - Ukraine is extremely corrupt - Ukraine is worse off then before the Maidan - Ukraine should stop fighting and accept whatever Russians want
I am surprised that you use the word tankie, from your posting I would have assumed that you've been called a tankie a bunch of times, at least that would have been true 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe the world is healing.
And yeah I'm having a hard time with that old post by GH, it seems to miss the larger picture. Some people being attacked by some other people, especially when the attacker is far right but not exclusively, we stand with the people attacked. Straightforward.
I do get the sense that GH is mainly trying to highlight the difference in reactions that people have when a fight for liberation is sanctioned by the west versus when one isn't, and that is fair, but he's also not doing a very good job of it in my opinion, it ends up looking contrarian.
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EPT
