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On August 05 2007 00:42 -TempS- wrote:Show nested quote +Does the country have a lot to tackle in terms of polution, political corruption, poverty, civil liberties, and the like? Sure. What country doesn't? I think the views of a lot of people weren't that every other country in the world is perfect, but more that many other countries have much less of these problems than China (esp. with regard to civil liberties and individual freedom issues). Also, I do think there are some countries that aren't doing so badly in many, most, or possibly even all of those categories you are listing.
Believe me, a lot of the world is very fucked up. With the exception of the Western developed countries (which had very favorable historical circumstances), China isn't really doing much worse than most nations.
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I place a rather high value on individual freedom and civil liberties, which tends to make me hold the Chinese government in significantly lower regard than have for many other governments of the world. This is not meant to be a slight against Chinese people or culture - I just despise their government.
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The government is horrible, but to be honest, daily life for the average individual isn't very different from living in some other place. I've lived there, so I guess I know what I'm talking about..
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On August 04 2007 10:58 I_are_n00b wrote:
They're moving up, from being so-poor-that-nobody-cared, to being moderately-poor-so-that-they-have-media/tourism-where-people-can-see-how-poor-they-are-and-talk-crap-about-them-on-the-internet. That's a HUGE step up imo!
Exactly. They are flying forward.
THey were recently a 3rd world country, and are already considered the heir to the world throne.
Sunman and aphelion are making great, well thought out posts and people go, 'well china sux shit', please try harder if someone actually writes out good points.
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Yeah the government is a little overbearing, but the economic progress that they've made in the last 20 years is absolutely amazing. Aren't they one of our like, biggest competitors or something now? That's a huge step up in such a short time.
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On August 06 2007 07:26 Haemonculus wrote:
Yeah the government is a little overbearing, but the economic progress that they've made in the last 20 years is absolutely amazing. Aren't they one of our like, biggest competitors or something now? That's a huge step up in such a short time.
It's 'cos of capitalism - the allowance of private investment into their cheap labour market from Taiwanese entrepreneurs, apparently, to produce products that were previously made in Taiwan (such as clothing).
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On August 06 2007 07:29 RebelHeart wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2007 07:26 Haemonculus wrote:
Yeah the government is a little overbearing, but the economic progress that they've made in the last 20 years is absolutely amazing. Aren't they one of our like, biggest competitors or something now? That's a huge step up in such a short time. It's 'cos of capitalism - the allowance of private investment into their cheap labour market from Taiwanese entrepreneurs, apparently, to produce products that were previously made in Taiwan (such as clothing).
And what is so wrong about that? you might it sound like every fuck ups had to do with capitalism.
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On August 06 2007 16:43 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2007 07:29 RebelHeart wrote:On August 06 2007 07:26 Haemonculus wrote:
Yeah the government is a little overbearing, but the economic progress that they've made in the last 20 years is absolutely amazing. Aren't they one of our like, biggest competitors or something now? That's a huge step up in such a short time. It's 'cos of capitalism - the allowance of private investment into their cheap labour market from Taiwanese entrepreneurs, apparently, to produce products that were previously made in Taiwan (such as clothing). And what is so wrong about that? you might it sound like every fuck ups had to do with capitalism.
Are you an idiot? I was making the point that government is not the solution, but private investment and capitalism is and the restrictions of government state run monopolies lifted. That's a good step for China.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
He might be an idiot but you are a tunnel visioned extremist who word vomits the same biased bs each time you make a thread. Try hearing someone out for once..
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How the heck am I supposed to respond to:
"And what is so wrong about that? you might it sound like every fuck ups had to do with capitalism."
Hello? Did I even say it was wrong? Did I even say capitalism has fucked it up?
I've never seen you make an informed post, in fact the only posts I've ever seen you make are ones attacking my posts, how unoriginal.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
This very thread actually has an "insightful" post, namely I discuss staunchly my own experience with CHina. This would suggest your analysis is weak since the evidence is directly below your nose and yet you come up ill found.
Additionally: how do you respond? Possibly not starting with "Are you an idiot?" Because that speaks exactly to what I was talking about...
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That still doesn't answer what the point of your response was, I was merely contributing to information as to why China is now prospering. It was a statement of (economical) fact. It was nothing to do with extremism or analysis (the only contribution besides the OP I made in this thread was rebutting someone's point about the Tienanmen Square incident being the "Bourgiese Revolution"). But you decided to bring in your pro-China psychotism as somehow relevant to my post discussing economical factors.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
pro-china? Did you even fucking read my post? And where the hell do I bring that up at all? All I said was your a fucking horrible poster who wont hear other opinions/view points and you called him a fucking idiot instead of explaining/discussing your point.
Jesus christ, are you insane? The disconnect from my post and your reply suggest serious issues at hand here.
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No I didn't read your post 'cos I couldn't be bothered finding it, but I don't see how that is in any way relevant to the point I was discussing. He ought to be called an idiot because he instantly assumed with no basis or logical connection that because I stated an economic fact about China's development I must be somehow anti-capitalist and that investment from Taiwan somehow fucks things up. What has that got to do with hearing other peoples' opinions and views? It was a response to a personal and prejudicial attack, I have no idea what his views are. You just decided to use this opportunity to bring in your obvious unrestrainable hatred of me being an "extremist" poster which had nothing to do with what was being disputed.
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It would be similar to for example in an after-match analysis, you wrote something along the lines of:
"Savior went three Hatch which is why he was able to build so many units".
Then someone responds and says:
"And what is so wrong about that? you make it sound like every fuck ups had to do with his expansion".
I mean, seriously, WTF. And then if you wrote: "You idiot. I was simply stating what the build order was", then you would be the person who came along and said: "He might be an idiot but you are a tunnel visioned extremist who word vomits the same biased bs each time you make a thread. Try hearing someone out for once". I mean seriously, WTF.
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On August 02 2007 06:39 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +1. If you wish to significantly criticise the Government you must register with the Government and provide your name, address and contact details. That's rich. "Hey guys I'm gonna criticise you here's my adress and such so you can come and throw me in jail while the rest of my family starves." Piece of shit dictatorship, I feel bad for anyone who has to live there. That's no freedom.
Thanks for your feeling bad for me. I'm feeling bad for myself too.
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China's reforms... moving more toward a more market-based system with more trade and such seems to be to their benefit. Nonetheless, I still hold their government in extremely low regard due to their policies that infringe upon individual freedoms and deny civil liberties to their people. As for those who live in China: please don't misinterpret this to mean I hold the Chinese people in low regard.
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Had lived in China for 5 years.
Some more restrict than Vietnam. But since you got the money, China will become a very lovely place.
Free to do what you want
Lot of Chinese chicks, believe me they are hot
Many lucrative jobs if you have a good education
Luxury houses, nice cars, people admire you if you are foreigner, many hot chicks? What do you want more.
I'm living in Vietnam rightnow, which is very similar to China. And I dont give the fuck for " You dont have any freedom here". Just totally wrong, come and live in China or Vietnam for a year you will know what am i talking about. I'd rather live here than go to the US and get shot by some fucking moron....
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According to Samuel Huntington and consensus among many political scientists, a developing country a far better off as an authoritarian regime than any other. I quote from memory:
"..it is less a question of what kind of government, than a question of to which degree of government"
The theory goes along the line of;
A society undergoing a fast growth is prone to violent changes and turmoil. The least bad solution is an authoritarian regime to hold things tight during the trancession into a developed country, followed by a trancession into a democracy. This is where the "ends justify means discussion" mentioned earlier comes into play. I remind you that we are not only talking about china here, Vietnam, Singapore, Japan(!), Taiwan(or Republic of China) are all described as authoritarian developing nations. One can also discuss the degree of democracy in western countries during their industrilazation.
If a diverse massive country like China is supposed to stay united one will have to expect a firm central grip, after all it was necessary in the Balkans Iraq, how necessary it is to keep China united is another discussion.
(ok i've searched for referance and i can't find it. its from a book called something like
"politics of development"
or "politics of growth" or something. Im sorry but i cant find on the web and i don't have it with me.)
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the funny thing is that all you westerners who've probably only been in China on guided tours and gathered information from a few time or economist articles and maybe a few years of geography are trying to sound like damn Chinese government experts.
Im not saying the Chinese government is doing pleasant things but they are doing some seriously good things. If you can seriously say that Mao Ze Dong, Deng Xiao Ping, Hu Jin Tao and Wen Jia Bao are doing a crap job then take a good look at how far China has gone these past decades.
We've gone from being schooled by Japan, England etc for silk, tea, spices and shit to making the news every other day now regarding our booming economy and quickly advancing weapons abilities.
I can totally understand that you as foreigners feel threatened, but if you look at our history we have never invaded, only suffered from invasions. Ok that was a little off topic but anyway.
I read the news and I am really quite proud that Chinas leaders are going around locating resources like oil and iron ore while at the same time the US are trying to take that away from us.
In conclusion I would like to quote a particular quote that I dont remember the exact wording but goes a little something like this.
"A bad leader takes his people where they want to go but end up somewhere terrible. A good leader takes his people where they do not necessarily want to go but turns out to be paradise."
After all, China doesn't have school shootings and the "people's choice" George Bush isn't really a nobel prize winner is he?
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EPT
