NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
I spoke to some Israelis living in the West Bank and their impression was that most people who move there now do so for cheaper housing. There are certainly some who do so for ideological reasons, but it seems that the vast majority do not.
And fun other facts about conspiracies is everyone you think is nuts for believing them is actually the same! They also get the real news from the non main stream media.
Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is a conspiracy now? Wacky take.
Israel appears to be on the verge of ethnic cleansing in Gaza
The author is the executive director of Human Rights watch.
Drone already pointed this out, but to expand on it: Israel is often blamed for what it might do in the future as opposed to what it actually has done. Even when it states clearly that it does not plan to do that.
Especially if "on the verge of" means "has the capability of doing so." In which case, Israel has been "on the verge of" ethnic cleansing for 70 years, which is another way of saying they've proven themselves time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if they wanted.
Israel just leaked an official government policy document that advocated for the forced relocation of the Palestinians to Sinai. It’s not a good look if anyone wants to argue they’d not really do ethnic cleansing. There are clearly individuals within the Israeli state that not only would ethically cleanse Palestine but are actively shaping policy in that direction. That leaves us in the undesirable position of hoping that more reasonable politicians overrule them, in the Netanyahu government.
I'll just state that Operation Unthinkable is also a government policy document.
Point i am making is that bureacracy in search of things to do will inevitably consider a whole lot of things including ones that are outright wrong for various reasons.
So, yeah, the only thing the existence of that document really states is that there are actual blood-and-iron people in Israeli government appratus... Something we knew the entire time.
So, bad optics? Definitely. Something worth talking about as if it's a leaked plan of action that would be taken? Not quite.
On November 03 2023 03:36 lolfail9001 wrote: I'll just state that Operation Unthinkable is also a government policy document.
Point i am making is that bureacracy in search of things to do will inevitably consider a whole lot of things including ones that are outright wrong for various reasons.
So, yeah, the only thing the existence of that document really states is that there are actual blood-and-iron people in Israeli government appratus... Something we knew the entire time.
So, bad optics? Definitely. Something worth talking about as if it's a leaked plan of action that would be taken? Not quite.
The US has several plans for zombie wars (apparantly a strategic training exercise, it was to sensitive to do real countries).
But yeah, if you ask planners to prepare options and leave them alone for long enough you are going to get plans that are progressivly out there.
On November 03 2023 00:52 Cerebrate1 wrote: I spoke to some Israelis living in the West Bank and their impression was that most people who move there now do so for cheaper housing. There are certainly some who do so for ideological reasons, but it seems that the vast majority do not.
Hmm, yes. I'm sure chasing people off the land their forefathers owned in the name of cheap housing is indeed a far better cause than in the name of some god of another. I'm glad religion has nothing to do with it and it's just old fashioned greed that is the reason for this conflict!
And fun other facts about conspiracies is everyone you think is nuts for believing them is actually the same! They also get the real news from the non main stream media.
Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is a conspiracy now? Wacky take.
Israel appears to be on the verge of ethnic cleansing in Gaza
The author is the executive director of Human Rights watch.
Drone already pointed this out, but to expand on it: Israel is often blamed for what it might do in the future as opposed to what it actually has done. Even when it states clearly that it does not plan to do that.
Especially if "on the verge of" means "has the capability of doing so." In which case, Israel has been "on the verge of" ethnic cleansing for 70 years, which is another way of saying they've proven themselves time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if they wanted.
On November 03 2023 00:52 Cerebrate1 wrote: Drone already pointed this out, but to expand on it: Israel is often blamed for what it might do in the future as opposed to what it actually has done. Even when it states clearly that it does not plan to do that.
Especially if "on the verge of" means "has the capability of doing so." In which case, Israel has been "on the verge of" ethnic cleansing for 70 years, which is another way of saying they've proven themselves time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if they wanted.
'My husband could straight up kill me if he wanted to, but he only beats me every other night, which is another way of saying he's proven himself time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if he wanted.'
On November 03 2023 00:52 Cerebrate1 wrote: I spoke to some Israelis living in the West Bank and their impression was that most people who move there now do so for cheaper housing. There are certainly some who do so for ideological reasons, but it seems that the vast majority do not.
Hmm, yes. I'm sure chasing people off the land their forefathers owned in the name of cheap housing is indeed a far better cause than in the name of some god of another. I'm glad religion has nothing to do with it and it's just old fashioned greed that is the reason for this conflict!
And fun other facts about conspiracies is everyone you think is nuts for believing them is actually the same! They also get the real news from the non main stream media.
Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is a conspiracy now? Wacky take.
Israel appears to be on the verge of ethnic cleansing in Gaza
The author is the executive director of Human Rights watch.
Drone already pointed this out, but to expand on it: Israel is often blamed for what it might do in the future as opposed to what it actually has done. Even when it states clearly that it does not plan to do that.
Especially if "on the verge of" means "has the capability of doing so." In which case, Israel has been "on the verge of" ethnic cleansing for 70 years, which is another way of saying they've proven themselves time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if they wanted.
Perhaps I should have clarified why I posted that. A couple of posters earlier had requested to know what the rationale of settlers was. I merely provided the information requested.
Although, the way you are framing it makes me feel as though you don't understand how the larger settlements work, so perhaps I should clarify that as well: Not all of the region is densely populated. In fact, if you go back 100 years or more, it was quite sparsely populated outside of a handful of cities. Check out the writings of Mark Twain and other travelers who visited and they describe it as a barren wasteland. (Incidentally, the origin of the term "green line" is that the Jews planted tons of trees wherever they went, and there was a time when you could identify the border of Israel from a plane by where the brown turned to green.) In any case, the point is, there were, and still are, large swaths of land that are mostly just empty hills. Most settlements begin by someone purchasing this land and a developer building houses on it. Then people looking for houses, buy them and move in.
Now, on a zoomed out, national perspective, this is unfair to the Palestinian people as a whole because it gives Israel more leverage regarding where the borders should be when the inevitable negotiation to create the 2 state solution finally takes place. A solution might be for Israel to outlaw Jews from purchasing land in that area.
There is also the issue of certain bad actors harassing Arabs in nearby villages. I agree with you that those a-holes need to be caught and thrown in jail.
Still, categorizing your average person who buys a house in a settlement as greedy or evil would be inaccurate. They are just people living their lives.
And (minus harassment by the aforementioned a-holes, who should be cracked down on harder), the Arabs aren't being chased off of their land. They are still living in their same villages. And, on a local level, I don't really hear the argument that because your grandmother lived in this village, you get to decide what type of people move onto the hill a mile away.
On November 03 2023 00:52 Cerebrate1 wrote: I spoke to some Israelis living in the West Bank and their impression was that most people who move there now do so for cheaper housing. There are certainly some who do so for ideological reasons, but it seems that the vast majority do not.
Hmm, yes. I'm sure chasing people off the land their forefathers owned in the name of cheap housing is indeed a far better cause than in the name of some god of another. I'm glad religion has nothing to do with it and it's just old fashioned greed that is the reason for this conflict!
On November 02 2023 17:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On November 02 2023 11:14 JimmiC wrote:
And fun other facts about conspiracies is everyone you think is nuts for believing them is actually the same! They also get the real news from the non main stream media.
Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is a conspiracy now? Wacky take.
Israel appears to be on the verge of ethnic cleansing in Gaza
The author is the executive director of Human Rights watch.
Drone already pointed this out, but to expand on it: Israel is often blamed for what it might do in the future as opposed to what it actually has done. Even when it states clearly that it does not plan to do that.
Especially if "on the verge of" means "has the capability of doing so." In which case, Israel has been "on the verge of" ethnic cleansing for 70 years, which is another way of saying they've proven themselves time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if they wanted.
There is also the issue of certain bad actors harassing Arabs in nearby villages. I agree with you that those a-holes need to be caught and thrown in jail.
You mean the IDF,
Dozens of pictures and videoclips have emerged over the past week showing IDF soldiers abusing and humiliating Palestinians apprehended in the West Bank, often while they are blindfolded and handcuffed.
In one of the most brutal videos, which has been blurred, IDF soldiers filmed themselves as they abused seven West Bank laborers who were caught as they attempted to enter Israel without a permit, in an area south of the South Hebron hills.
The footage shows the Palestinian men stripped naked or half-naked, blindfolded and handcuffed, and screaming in pain. One of them is being dragged on the ground.
A screenshot from the video shows a soldier stepping with his boot on the head of one of the Palestinians, while another is pointing a weapon at him.
In another scene of violence caught on camera, a soldier kicks a blindfolded Palestinian man in the stomach, then spits on him and insults him in Arabic.
the armed terrorist settlers threatening to murder Palestinians if they don't abandon their homes immediately,
masked armed settlers attacked Palestinian civilians in the villages of Susiya and Umm al-Khair in the same area. In the first case, armed settlers reportedly stormed the village on Sunday, intimidated local residents and told them that they had 24 hours to leave their homes or else they would be killed
or all of those + those like them and just trying to rationalize the settlers illegally occupying West Bank strictly because that's cheaper than living in Israel?
On November 01 2023 15:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: Defining the settlements as 'israeli settlers buying empty hilltops' comes off as ridiculous to me. Im cellphone posting so i dont feel like elaborating too much but this article does a fair job shedding light on some of the more unacceptable behavior. https://www.nrc.no/news/2021/july/IsraeliForcesDemolishCommunityStructures/
I'm glad you brought this article. It highlights yet another very complex issue that gets highly simplified in most media narratives for the sake of easy consumption by foreign audiences.
The Beduin population in Israel is growing exponentially. They still keep polygamy (technically illegal in Israel, but not enforced on them) and about one in three Beduin men in the Negev have multiple wives. Without getting into the math, that can lead to a serious amount of babies. Israel provides financial assistance per child, so they can eat, but you can imagine such large families do not end up super wealthy.
The result is a lot of people who need housing. They end up setting up tents and huts all over the place, even on other people's land which they did not buy. It's a sad situation, but letting them squat on any spot they find is not fair to people who bothered to aquire the land using the same laws that have been used there since Ottoman times. Being as they don't own the land of these new ramshackle structures, and never did, Israel has a policy to demolish these new structures and help the residents move to proper housing units in nearby towns.
Is that the ideal solution? I don't know. But a full understanding of the situation doesn’t seem to indicate villianous intent of any party here. The Beduins are just having unsustainably large families and Israel is just maintaining property law (incidentally, they frequently demolish settlements of extremist Zionists who don't legally aquire the land as well.)
If you have other articles that discuss other issues, I'd be happy to discuss those as well. Context is important, and I'm happy to see that many people in this forum are interested in understanding things deeper than article headlines.
While I appreciate you bringing context to stuff posted (I'll happily admit that I'm getting at this from a foreigner's perspective, although I've been making sure to read quite a bit of Hareetz lately (I'm familiar with their position on the political spectrum)),
Thanks! And I'm happy to hear that you are going out of your way to understand the Israeli perspective better. Sounds like you are a worldly and introspective person.
are you saying this quote: ' “The demolitions are the latest in an unrelenting show of force by the Israeli authorities, who have destroyed at least 421 structures belonging to Palestinians in the first six months of 2021 alone. This marks a 30 per cent rise in demolitions for the same period in 2020,”said Ort.
Last year, the Israeli authorities demolished 848 Palestinian structures in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem – a 36 per cent increase compared to 2019.' refers solely to Beduins who are having unsustainably large families?
I don't believe that it refers to all of those buildings, no. There are other reasons for demolitions and those other demolitions are often proper buildings. But those other reasons are less common. Plus, those numbers are just too outrageously high to be talking about normal houses, all the more so apartment complexes. The West Bank has more buildings every year. If they were being destroyed at anywhere near the rate of 800+ a year, they would have less buildings every year instead. Not to mention, "structures" is a weird word to use. If it were 600 houses and 200 tents and I were a journalist, I would have said 600 houses instead of 800 structures as it sounds more impressive. So it seems to me the most likely explanation to that there was some less impressive number of proper buildings demolished, and the journalist/editor/paper realized it could get a lot more views if it just included all the tents and whatnot in the count and just labled it all "structures."
I also had the impression that 'having unsustainably large families' is also an apt description of some of the most orthodox jews, in particular Haredis, and that this is a driving factor in the aggressive settlement policies (among other things because they end up needing larger houses for their families which are much less expensive in those regions). Do feel at a liberty to correct me if I have misunderstood anything here!
I should clarify that I am not against having large families. Even the polygamy doesn't necesarily bother me. As long as everyone is happy and they aren't bothering anyone else, I'm cool with other religions and cultures living life their own way.
When I say "unsustainably large," I mean it's concerning when you let your family get to the point that you can't support them within the boundaries of the law. Even then, I'm not saying anyone is a cartoon villain for having the baby. It's often years between conception and when the money runs out, so that could just be innocent lack of foresight. But you still have to figure out a plan that doesn't involve breaking the law at the end of the day.
On November 03 2023 00:52 Cerebrate1 wrote: I spoke to some Israelis living in the West Bank and their impression was that most people who move there now do so for cheaper housing. There are certainly some who do so for ideological reasons, but it seems that the vast majority do not.
Hmm, yes. I'm sure chasing people off the land their forefathers owned in the name of cheap housing is indeed a far better cause than in the name of some god of another. I'm glad religion has nothing to do with it and it's just old fashioned greed that is the reason for this conflict!
On November 02 2023 17:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On November 02 2023 11:14 JimmiC wrote:
And fun other facts about conspiracies is everyone you think is nuts for believing them is actually the same! They also get the real news from the non main stream media.
Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is a conspiracy now? Wacky take.
Israel appears to be on the verge of ethnic cleansing in Gaza
The author is the executive director of Human Rights watch.
Drone already pointed this out, but to expand on it: Israel is often blamed for what it might do in the future as opposed to what it actually has done. Even when it states clearly that it does not plan to do that.
Especially if "on the verge of" means "has the capability of doing so." In which case, Israel has been "on the verge of" ethnic cleansing for 70 years, which is another way of saying they've proven themselves time and again to be responsible to not commit a crime despite having the resources to do so if they wanted.
There is also the issue of certain bad actors harassing Arabs in nearby villages. I agree with you that those a-holes need to be caught and thrown in jail.
Dozens of pictures and videoclips have emerged over the past week showing IDF soldiers abusing and humiliating Palestinians apprehended in the West Bank, often while they are blindfolded and handcuffed.
In one of the most brutal videos, which has been blurred, IDF soldiers filmed themselves as they abused seven West Bank laborers who were caught as they attempted to enter Israel without a permit, in an area south of the South Hebron hills.
The footage shows the Palestinian men stripped naked or half-naked, blindfolded and handcuffed, and screaming in pain. One of them is being dragged on the ground.
A screenshot from the video shows a soldier stepping with his boot on the head of one of the Palestinians, while another is pointing a weapon at him.
In another scene of violence caught on camera, a soldier kicks a blindfolded Palestinian man in the stomach, then spits on him and insults him in Arabic.
the armed terrorist settlers threatening to murder Palestinians if they don't abandon their homes immediately,
masked armed settlers attacked Palestinian civilians in the villages of Susiya and Umm al-Khair in the same area. In the first case, armed settlers reportedly stormed the village on Sunday, intimidated local residents and told them that they had 24 hours to leave their homes or else they would be killed
or all of those + those like them and just trying to rationalize the settlers illegally occupying West Bank strictly because that's cheaper than living in Israel?
So I said "those people are bad and should be in jail"
To which you responded that I am bad.
It's an interesting response to finding common ground, to say the least. I would have gone with the more productive "what can we do to stop these bad actors?"
But to quote your Al Jazeera video verbatim "Most of the other settlers and the police and the army, they all disown, they all reject, they all criticize these Hilltop Youth."
Your Wikipedia article also mentions what I said earlier about Israel demolishing their illegal outposts.
Meanwhile, if there are soldiers who are bad eggs, I'd throw them in prison too.
On November 03 2023 13:38 Cerebrate1 wrote: Still, categorizing your average person who buys a house in a settlement as greedy or evil would be inaccurate. They are just people living their lives.
By that logic, Russian mercs signing up to fight for Wagner in Ukraine shouldn't be classified as greedy or evil, either. They're just people living their lives, right?
Totally agree with you that 'bad egg' soldiers should be thrown in prison, by the way! Unfortunately that's something Israel simply does not do, so it seems pretty strange that your conclusion is that 'its just a few bad eggs' rather than 'its state-level policy' given that the state has refused to act upon any of these 'bad egg' actions for literally decades, across thousands of incidents of murder, torture, and property destruction.
@Cerebrate You're not describing the west bank's situation even remotely accurately. It's Apartheid through force, patrols, borders, checkpoints, etc. There's no freedom of movement and the Palestinians are effectively held captive on whatever remains of their land. Meanwhile Jews can move around freely on what are effectively no-go zones. They own the land that causes the Apartheid.
Besides the speech being all over the place, and the need for Hezbollah to find a speech writer, this seems to confirm that Iran, and Hezbollah had no idea what Hamas planned to do.
edit: Or at that the very least Iran pushed to have them be out of the loop.
A war crime committed by Hamas. Hamas has recently reiterated their view that Palestinian civilians who die from attacks like this are martyrs, and that it is all worthwhile.
We are called a nation of martyrs and are proud to sacrifice martyrs,” Hamad said. “Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nations, and must be finished.”
Hamas has repeatedly reiterated Palestinians being sacrificed in pursuit of eliminating Israel is all a part of the plan and that Palestinians have a unique position without the Arab community to serve as martyrs to destroy Israel.
The whole idea that Israel can't strike somewhere so long as Hamas makes sure civilians are around is so dumb and bad faith. The whole point is that they are lunatics who view their lives as a means to an end. The logic you are putting forth would mean Hamas can fire as many rockets at Israel as they want, and face zero consequences, so long as those rockets are shot from somewhere near civilians.
You need to stop framing this as a conflict operating by the rules of western sensitivities. It is not. Hamas, as the government of Gaza, has reiterated multiple times that their civilians being killed during this conflict is not something to avoid and that it is a means to an end. They view the complete and total elimination of Israel as the only priority and they will continue to try to use events like this to fish for sympathy. The lives don't matter at all to them and they view it as an honor to be killed in this way.
It will never cease to amaze me that the whole world can vote to not target civilians except for 14 countries, most of them in the West, and like the same week the notion of having a problem with civilians dying will be described as "western sensitivity".
On November 04 2023 04:53 Nebuchad wrote: It will never cease to amaze me that the whole world can vote to not target civilians except for 14 countries, most of them in the West, and like the same week the notion of having a problem with civilians dying will be described as "western sensitivity".
I think you know this is a dishonest framing of the issue. You are going out of your way to pretend it is possible for Israel to prevent rockets from being shot at them in some other way. The whole point is that Hamas as the government of Gaza has a policy for mixing military stuff with civilian stuff to force Israel to attack civilian stuff.
There are literally interviews with Hamas where they reiterate the fact that they view themselves as a nation of martyrs and that it is ***NOT*** just Hamas soldiers who are considered martyrs. They are very, very clear that mixing in military stuff with civilian stuff is for exactly this reason.
The whole "don't target civilians" thing gets thrown out the window when the government ruling over those civilians are making a conscious effort to mix military and civilian stuff. You are basically entirely ignoring their core ideology where deaths need not be prevented. That is not the philosophy they use. They want this to happen. There is not a way for Israel to harm Hamas without harming civilians because Hamas designs the situation exactly as such.
Ok because Hamas will shield themselves in ambulances means Israel should bomb ambulances? Best case scenario you take out a few Hamas types, worst you just blow up an ambulance.
You aren’t obligated to bomb ambulances, it’s not something you are particularly forced into doing. You can choose to do it if you don’t particularly care for civilian collateral, which Israel patently don’t care for.
There’s a difference between that and say, responding to actual rocket fire coming from an ostensibly civilian building, the latter one can at least legitimately be responding to an active threat from.
EPT
